🚀 go-pugleaf

Ultima 4 and the U7's are the greatest as far as I'm concerned.  I love these 
games.  Here are some of the things I like and some of the things I'd like to 
see:

A hybrid combat system.  I don't know how it would work, but the combat in U7 
seems just a touch too random (which is, I guess, pretty realistic).  I 
thought U4's system was pretty good at allowing you a bit of strategy, but it 
got slow after a while.  One of the things I liked about the 7's was that as 
the game progressed, and your characters were stronger, combat wasn't an issue 
for the lower monsters.  All the way through U4 you had to hassle with the 
combat screen and moving guys around, etc.

I think between the key ring and the auto-feed hot-key, you guys reached a 
happy medium between having to actually buy food find keys vs. a lot of hassle 
in manipulating these items.

I don't know how, but the NPC interfacing still needs work.  Maybe going back 
to typing key words wouldn't be so bad as an option.  It encourages paying 
more attention and *gasp* keeping better notes.

Likewise, I am anti-automap.  Part of the thrill of the dungeons was figuring 
them out.  In the more challenging ones, I ended up making maps for myself, 
but I think the automap feature makes some of this too easy.

I'm sure that the graphics and sound will be awesome, but don't falter on this 
at all.  In addition to being a good game with a good plot, the more "real" it 
seems, the better.

Also, I'm still pretty partial to the first person perspective in dungeons.  
This would get to be a bit tedious in the regular world, but maybe go to a 
system like U4 with separate town/dungeon/wilderness interfaces.  A first 
person perspective in some of the towns might be kind of neat...  The problem 
is where do you break it off.  Also, a party of eight can see more than a 
party of one.  In a dungeon, there would have to be some way of seeing what's 
behind you (i.e. a rear guard).

I actually like how much of a pain in the a** it is when it gets dark.  This 
makes things much more realistic.

Most important - keep the skill required to finish the game pretty high.  I 
like seeing my character progress.  I also like learning some of the tricks of 
the game on my own.  Don't make things too obvious or even necessarily 
consistent with previous games.  This is a very sophisticated audience you are 
playing to, they don't want to play Ultima 4 or 7 (or any other Ultima) again, 
but they do want the "feel" of Ultima.  That's your challenge - make it all 
new, yet keep it the same.

Also, there's a thread that's been floating here (it seems like) forever.  
It's called Origin CD ONLY FOREVER or something.  There's a huge debate about 
pushing system capacity and designing for high end systems.  IMHO, assuming a 
mid 1996 release date, the game should run adequately on a fast 486, but 
exploit the features of a Pentium for best performance.  By the time it is 
released, this may not even be good enough.  Don't sacrifice the game for 
downward compatibility.  I'd rather wait for a new system to play the best 
game possible than get a game that's no better than what we already have.

Good luck with this game.  In many rpgers opinions, this could signal the end 
for Origin, or a new birth...


_________________________                 _________________________       
Mike Pisarczyk           |#####     #####| If you choose not to
                         |######   ######|  decide you still have
mvpi...@engprn.mobil.com  ### ## ## ###     made a choice.
                           ###  ###  ###                      -Rush
My opinions are my own!  |#####     #####|
_________________________|#####     #####|_GO BLUE!________________
     

In article <bmartin.2...@origin.ea.com>, bma...@origin.ea.com (Brian Martin) writes:
>Hello There,
>
>My name is Brian, and I am one of the many Ultima 9 team members. Right now, 
>U9 is in the early developemental stage, and we want to know what you, the RPG 
>fan, would like to see in the next Ultima. 
>
>Let me first state that it is our goal to make U9 a much more traditional 
>Ultima. That is to say that we want U9 to be more like U4 than U8, (yes, we 
>learned something from U8).  U9 will take place in Britannia, will be very 
>interactive and non linear, and will bring the party back to the Avatar. Any 
>other suggestions concerning magic, combat, or any other aspect of game play 
>would be very welcome. Please post any suggestions to this board. Myself and 
>other U9 team members will be watching for your comments and suggestions.  We 
>want to make a game that you want to play, so who better to tell us what to 
>include than you?
>
>Thanks for your time,
>-Bmartin

First of all, let me say its great to see someone is listening....

One thing I'd like to see is a revamping of the combat system. I must admit,
although all the animations are nice, the real-time combat system that appeared
in Ultima 7 - 8, isn't really practical. One suggestion I made on here a while ago
is a comprimise between the turn based system I grew to love and the desire 
to see nice graphics presentation is the ability to pause combat, set actions,
choose spells to cast, etc... The ability to choose specific players to go after
specific targets using certain weapons. Let me choose all of this, while the game
is paused, unpause the game and let it go until I feel I need to change an option 
or two.  This would effectively give me back the full control I had with the turn 
based combat of Ultima 4-6, and allow me to sit back and enjoy all the nice sword
slashing, blood spurtting animations. (AND NO MORE DOUBLE CLICKING!!!! The most
annoying thing about Ultima 7, was 5 guys attacking one guy and me trying to find
the one pixel I needed to double click on to get in a hit!)

This was one of the reason 2 of my friends stopped playing Ultimas after
Ultima 6. Combat became less tactical and more random.


One of the other things I missed, is 3-D perspective dungeons. They wouldn't have
to be of Ultima Underworld VR quality, but it would be a nice feature to have back. 
Top down exploring of the dungeons got too monotonous. At least with neat wall 
graphics and full screen sized monsters to look at, it might keep my interest....
I don't know how feasable it would be to put this element back in the game, but
I was sorry to see it go back in Ultima 6.


And on a last note: BRING BACK THE MOONGATES!  (Ultima 7 was annoying enough when
you hurt yourself whenever you tried using one, but got really annoying when they
disappeared altogether!!!!)

I have been a consistent fan of Ultima since III came out, but as with many
people in this newsgroup, I have been dismayed by the recent trend in the 
series.  Here are some of my opinions:

1)  The trend to real time combat has to be stopped or at least moderated. 
I am a fan of strategic combat... I think X-COM had perhaps the best combat
system I have seen in a while.  Real time combat has its place in the industry,
certainly, but I think that the Ultima experience is more aligned with 
thinking and planning rather than manual dexterity and speed.  I liked the
return to the emphasis on fighting in U8, after the fighting depleted U6
-U7.5, just not the way it was implemented.

2)  In a similar vein, I was severely dissapointed in the arcade sequences,
i.e. the jumping, etc.  I would advocate doing away with this totally, as the
opinions I have seen on the newsgroup have been almost exclusively negative
about this subject.

3)  I am also alarmed by the trend towards more non-personal interaction in
U8.  I thought U7 and U7.5 were very good in this aspect.  However, U8 
eliminated the portraits, one of my favorite things, and the number of people
to talk to.  I think this is very dangerous, as this is one of the things
the Ultima series is famous for.

4)  Point of view:  in U8 it was too low.  Often it was hard to see what you
were actually trying to manipulate.  I kind of like the slightly off overhead
view.

5)  Finally, recent GOOD things about Ultima:  One is the graphics.  As much
as posible, I think you should keep up the high end graphics.  HOWEVER, game
play should not be sacrificed to make room for better graphics.  I liked the
spell animations particularly in U8.  Also, the addition of climbing was 
very creative.  Just not the jumping over platforms, etc...


Thanks for your time, and you interest in true RPGers opinions.

-- 
Jason Sprague
jja...@mit.edu

In article <bmartin.2...@origin.ea.com>,
Brian Martin <bma...@origin.ea.com> wrote:
>Hello There,
>
>My name is Brian, and I am one of the many Ultima 9 team members. Right now, 
>U9 is in the early developemental stage, and we want to know what you, the RPG
>fan, would like to see in the next Ultima. 
>
>Please post any suggestions to this board.
>


-------------
Plot development
-------------

Since when was the Avatar the official courier service provider and the
lost-and-found clerk of Britannia?  The search for the air balloon plans
in Ultima V - Warriors of Destiny,  collecting the nine pieces of a map in
Ultima VI - The False Prophet and the finding of materials required to
enter Penumbra's house in Ultima VII - The Black Gate were all a waste
of time.  Some ominous force that threatens to "rule to world" is another
boring plot idea...

Unfortunately, many computer role-playing games end once the 
main conflict has been resolved.  We are given this pleasant animated 
sequence at the end and suddenly the DOS prompt appears.

In such a context, the Avatar reminds me of shoe salesmen.  They go
to work and once a day's task is accomplished, they go home -- end
of story.  With the proliferation of add-on disks, why not have an light-
hearted attempt to market an option to have the Avatar remain on
Britannia for a little while after the quest is done and interact with the
populace.  There is much that we, as players, do not know about the society
in which were are called so often to save.


------
Combat
------

One deficiency that I noticed in Ultima VII was that of Dungeon Destard.  To
defeat the dragons all a party had to do was to place caltrops on the ground 
and lure the creatures onto the metal spikes.  What I fail to understand is 
why such a formidable opponent would be so foolish.  Similarly, the NPC
parties that you would encounter in either forest, cavern or grassland also
lacked any sense of strategy.  I noticed only two rules of engagment: attack 
the nearest opponent and flee when appropriate.

To simulate combat options, it should be a trivial exercise to build and
maintain an active AVL tree.  Each front and back child of some root node would
be two general actions.  Subsequent traversals in either subtree expands
the options available.  Deciding which path to take along the tree would 
be akin to assigning some number to each node.  A clever strategy involving an 
attack with missile weapons from a group of concealed archers would have a
much higher priority number than a strategy where the same archers, surrounded
by a group of thugs attack, en masse, on a clear, sunny morning in the middle
the some dirt road leading to the vineyards of Empath Abbey.

Having such a data structure can also simulate a "learning process".  Since
inserting a strategy option (i.e. a node) into an AVL tree preserves balance,
why not do this in real-time?  In most cases, all operations are, at worst, of
O(1.44 log n).  Future encounters with the same group (provided that someone
flees the battle, manages to escape captivity or successfully negotiates their
freedom) would not only have an expanded array of tactical options to
choose from but also a node combination (a failed strategy) to avoid.   

For non-human encounters, you can sort and therefore arrange the strategy
options in terms of the time of day, feeding cycle, breeding season,
environment and current weather conditions.  A hungry troll on a chilly morning
having lost a territorial battle with another troll would not be patient enough
to wait beneath a bridge for a hearty morning meal to just stroll by. 



------------
NPC interaction
------------

One can safely assume that those who use, and in many cases own, a
computer have acquired the basic skill of typing.  As such, there should be
an option for players to type their queries instead on choosing one from a
listing.  Why restrict players in terms of what they can ask a particular
character? The language parser in Ultima VI - The False Prophet was nice, 
but still somewhat restrictive; we were still "encouraged" to ask the
highlighted words.


---------
The Avatar
---------

The inclusion of a choice of gender and ethnic background was a welcome
surprise in Ultima VII - Part 2.  I sincerely hope that this option will be
available in Ultima IX - Ascension.


---------
Lord British
---------

Having ruled Britannia for several years why is he still single?  With 
advancing age, old LB should be thinking about who will be heir to the throne.


-----------------------------------------------------------

.Hin.

In article <bmartin.2...@origin.ea.com>,
Brian Martin <bma...@origin.ea.com> wrote:
>Hello There,
>
>My name is Brian, and I am one of the many Ultima 9 team members. Right now, 
>U9 is in the early developemental stage, and we want to know what you, the RPG
>fan, would like to see in the next Ultima. 
>
>Please post any suggestions to this board.
>


For those who have read article 38849 please ignore the following

-------------
Plot development
-------------

Since when was the Avatar the official courier service provider and the
lost-and-found clerk of Britannia?  The search for the air balloon plans
in Ultima V - Warriors of Destiny,  collecting the nine pieces of a map in
Ultima VI - The False Prophet and the finding of materials required to
enter Penumbra's house in Ultima VII - The Black Gate were all a waste
of time.  Some ominous force that threatens to "rule the world" is another
boring plot idea...

Unfortunately, many computer role-playing games end once the 
main conflict has been resolved.  We are given this pleasant animated 
sequence at the end and suddenly the DOS prompt appears.

In such a context, the Avatar reminds me of shoe salesmen.  They go
to work and once a day's task is accomplished, they go home -- end
of story.  With the proliferation of add-on disks, why not have an light-
hearted attempt to market an option to have the Avatar remain on
Britannia for a little while after the quest is done and interact with the
populace.  There is much that we, as players, do not know about the society
in which were are called so often to save.


------
Combat
------

One deficiency that I noticed in Ultima VII was that of Dungeon Destard.  To
defeat the dragons all a party had to do was to place caltrops on the ground 
and lure the creatures onto the metal spikes.  What I fail to understand is 
why such a formidable opponent would be so foolish.  Similarly, the NPC
parties that you would encounter in either forest, cavern or grassland also
lacked any sense of strategy.  I noticed only two rules of engagment: attack 
the nearest opponent and flee when appropriate.

To simulate combat options, it should be a trivial exercise to build and
maintain an active AVL tree.  Each front and back child of some root node would
be two general actions.  Subsequent traversals in either subtree expands
the options available.  Deciding which path to take along the tree would 
be akin to assigning some number to each node.  A clever strategy involving an 
attack with missile weapons from a group of concealed archers would have a
much higher priority number than a strategy where the same archers, surrounded
by a group of thugs attack, en masse, on a clear, sunny morning in the middle
the some dirt road leading to the vineyards of Empath Abbey.

Having such a data structure can also simulate a "learning process".  Since
inserting a strategy option (i.e. a node) into an AVL tree preserves balance,
why not do this in real-time?  In most cases, all operations are, at worst, of
O(1.44 log n).  Future encounters with the same group (provided that someone
flees the battle, manages to escape captivity or successfully negotiates their
freedom) would not only have an expanded array of tactical options to
choose from but also a node combination (a failed strategy) to avoid.   

For non-human encounters, you can sort and therefore arrange the strategy
options in terms of the time of day, feeding cycle, breeding season,
environment and current weather conditions.  A hungry troll on a chilly morning
having lost a territorial battle with another troll would not be patient enough
to wait beneath a bridge for a hearty morning meal to just stroll by. 



------------
NPC interaction
------------

One can safely assume that those who use, and in many cases own, a
computer have acquired the basic skill of typing.  As such, there should be
an option for players to type their queries instead on choosing one from a
listing.  Why restrict players in terms of what they can ask a particular
character? The language parser in Ultima VI - The False Prophet was nice, 
but still somewhat restrictive; we were still "encouraged" to ask the
highlighted words.


---------
The Avatar
---------

The inclusion of a choice of gender and ethnic background was a welcome
surprise in Ultima VII - Part 2.  I sincerely hope that this option will be
available in Ultima IX - Ascension.


---------
Lord British
---------

Having ruled Britannia for several years why is he still single?  With 
advancing age, old LB should be thinking about who will be heir to the throne.


-----------------------------------------------------------

.Hin.

I.  Interface suggestions
II.  Plot suggestions
 
I.  Interface suggestions
 
1.  No arcade sections.  No arcade sections.  No arcade sections.
     "Arcade section" = any obstacle that a typical player has to
try more than three times to get past.  Maybe even two times. 
Absolutely the most annoying part of U8.
 
2.  Pathfinding function (as in U7) is a must.
     The second most annoying part of U8 was trying to find the
one tiny spot on the ledge where the game would let one climb.  I
want to be able just to click where I want to be and let the
computer find the appropriate route.  (This includes jumping.)
 
3.  Lots of hotkeys.
     I want to be able to hit (C) to get a list of spells to Cast
and (R) to Rest and so on.  I do not like mouse-only interfaces. 
And I'm tired of mucking about through my inventory all the time. 
Speaking of which --
 
4.  Special inventory for "typed" items (esp. reagents).
     If I pick up yet another piece of sulphurous ash, I want the
game to automatically put it with the rest.  In general I want as
much inventory handling automated as possible.  Let there be a
"Reagent bag", "Weapons sack", etc.  
 
5.  Idiocy-free combat.  
     I do not ever again want to see my character sheath his
sword in the middle of combat in order to move.  If I click on an
enemy, I want to move up to him and swing.  If I click on a
location, I want to dash over there.  I want my relevant objects
and a list of spells available by hotkeys, no inventory-mucking
required.  If it makes the player look stupid or feel clumsy, get
rid of it.
 
6.  View rotation.
     I'm tired of not being able to see what's going on.  And
it's very aggravating to knock a chest where you can't see it.
Alternatively a hotkey to turn all walls to transparent glass
would work quite well.
 
7.  Automapping and/or lots of premade maps.
     Do you have any idea how big those isometric places feel?  I
want a nice 2D automap, or else a regular supply of 2D map
vendors and dead bodies with maps on them.  Or both.
 
8.  Text optionally visible during speech.
     It was impossible to make out what Hydros was saying...
 
9.  Full speech is NOT necessary.
     Not if the storage required gets in the way of a rich,
multiple-paths, highly dynamic world.
 
II.  Content suggestions
 
1.  Game flags must make sense.  Game flags must make sense. 
          Game flags must makes sense.
     Whenever the game won't let one do X until one has done Y a
reason must be explicitly given.  Nothing does more to destroy
the suspension of disbelief than a senseless requirement.  "What,
if the dog sniffs the medallion the barrier around the castle
disappears?  What the heck?"  [In U8:  Why wouldn't Hydros speak
to me until after I completed the Shrine of the Ancient Ones? 
Why did I have to free Pyros before I could get the Ethereal
Travel spell?  Stupid, stupid, stupid.]
 
2.  Satisfying resolutions.
     If I kill a local dragon I want every single villager to
thank me for it when they see me and most of them to have changed
habits as a result.  If I save the world I want a big, flashing
YOU HAVE SAVED THE WORLD sign and I want every single citizen to
come up and shake my hand and tell me a personal anecdote about
how I have made their lives better.  The closing animation should
be blindingly explicit and triumphant, and resolutions during the
game should be similarly direct.  Don't assume I know I've done a
good deed, don't just tell me "You have done a good deed", SHOW
ME.  There should be no doubt about the consequences of my
actions.
 
3.  Evil people should be evil.
     I want motivation.  I want dead bodies and crying widows
strewn in the wake of my enemy.  I want lots of HATE and MISERY
and ANGUISH to lay at the feet of my enemy.
 
4.  Evil people should be evil during the game, too.
     I want to make good friends and useful allies only to have
them kidnapped with taunting notes left behind.  I want to see
innocents taken away screaming.  I want Blackthorn and the
Shadowlords (U5) -- enemies who make my quest difficult on a
personal, direct and regular basis.  I want personal reasons to
be upset with the enemy.  
 
5.  No unjustified red herrings.
     No "tomb of Moriens" nonsense, please.  If there are going
to be red herrings, put them in a situation where it's clear
there are false as well as true leads.  If characters are going
to lie, their motivations should be made clear later on.  Never,
ever assume the player will figure out why so-and-so did X.  Make
it explicit.
 
6.  No scavenger hunts.
     The Avatar is a hero, not a catspaw.  Don't give me lots of
directions -- give me clues I put together myself.  "You got the
blackrock?  Good.  Now go to the Wisps with this book..."
 
7.  Lots of small figure-it-out-yourself puzzles.
     Using brain = fun.  Give me lots of opportunities to piece
information together.  I'm investigating the Widgets, say:  an
apprentice says the Mage of Veils was interested in Widgets but
has now "vanished, I know not where"; but the innkeeper says that
a bard told him there was a carnival with caged Widgets in North
Vespers.... so where might the Mage of Veils be, hmm?
 
8.  Lots of common knowledge.
     Everyone in town should be able to give me directions to
buildings in town; and if there's a plague, everyone should have
something to say about it.  "No man is an island."
 
9.  Lots of [well-justified] surprises and mysteries.
     If I want "Kill Foozle" I'll go play an SSI game :)  There
should be multiple twists and turns -- as long as they are
properly explained afterwards.  And make sure the player doesn't
have an opportunity to kill anyone ahead of schedule...
 
10.  Lots of dynamism in the world.
     Gypsies and bards who move from town to town.  Roving
brigands.  Armies on the march.  Lots of things to keep the
Avatar on his toes.  Just don't make any obvious links to
unrelated game events -- if the army marches into York right
after I free the Princess, every single time, it looks stupid. 
Instead, try "The army will march into York as soon as the player
has completed one of plot objectives A, B, and C and has visited
1-6 (random) more cities."  (Time-based flags don't work too well
if the player works quickly.  Instead, increment the counter each
time the player goes into a city different from the last city
visited.  Or count the number of conversations.  Or both.)
 
11.  Genuine time pressure.
     Repeatedly emphasize the urgency of the situation - "The
BigNastyFolks take more of us away each day."  Count the number
of visits I've made to cities so far.  Trigger something
upsetting every N+(1-4) visits.  An army blockade?  A fire?  Lots
of ways to make players' lives unpleasant without making the game
unwinnable.  Just make sure we know the time pressure exists.
 
12.  Rewards for the clever and alternatives for the rest.
     Let there be a wandering Oracle who requires onerous tasks
in return for hints.  If you can't figure out where the Mage of
Veils is, you go hunt down the Oracle.  This lets there be
serious brain-working puzzles without making the game impossible. 
Just heavily advertise the Oracle, and make the tasks harder each
time.  "Back again so soon?  Good -- I need the skulls of three
dragons from the northern mountains..."
 
13.  Avoid artificial / physical puzzles.
     Lever puzzles and logic puzzles and word puzzles look and
feel contrived and have no role-playing in them at all.  BORING. 
Give me puzzles in the form of problems natural to the world --
"How can I find where the Mage of Veils has gone?"  "Who killed
the smith?  Why?"  "What will persuade the Baron that I'm on his
side?"  Puzzles should center around people, not things.  Puzzles
should be solved by talking to and investigating people and
making deductions based on the results.
 
14.  Give the player an advising companion to keep him going.
     Let one or more of the NPCs have a ready answer to "what the
heck should I do now?" so that there's never any confusion. 
"Well, I think we ought to try and find out where the Mage of
Veils went.  Probably we should talk to and investigate the
townsfolk.  If we can't figure it out ourselves, we should
probably seek the Oracle."  Such an NPC could also serve as a
note-taker.
  
15.  Motivation, motivation, motivation.
     Why do I have to do X to win the game?  Has this been made
clear to me?  Why did Joe do Y?  Has this been explained to me?
-- 
Daniel Starr           |  Graphics CPU demand will peak in 1995;
starr-...@yale.edu  |  AI is the processor hog of the future.
                       | --------------------------------------------------    
"Scuppers. Hosepipe."  |  PC with 10^10 neurons: 40-80 years. (Moore's law)

JANG  HIN LANG (ja...@ecf.toronto.edu) wrote:
: In article <bmartin.2...@origin.ea.com>,
: Brian Martin <bma...@origin.ea.com> wrote:
: >Hello There,
: >
: >My name is Brian, and I am one of the many Ultima 9 team members. Right now, 
: >U9 is in the early developemental stage, and we want to know what you, the RPG
: >fan, would like to see in the next Ultima. 
: >
: >Please post any suggestions to this board.
: >
Wow, what a question/

Lets start with combat.  I miss the combat of u4 and 5.  In 6-8 char develop
ment is reduced to a min.  I like the fact that u used 2 have to build up
characters so u could advance.  There needs to be more tactics involved in
combat.  Also, I miss the typing.  The keyboard is there for a reason.  
We can take advantage of it.  As for story, I'm assuming the guardian must
be defeated, but this should be done in a creative unique way.  Some more
subtle things concerning Earth should be incorporated into the story, since
that is where the Avatar is from.  But enough criticism, I'm sure it will
be great.

(Maybe some time-traveling theme to get old Iolo and Shamano and Dupre
back?, then again, maybe not)


--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brought to u by the Funk.  My not be reproduced without the express
written consent of Funk or anyone with the first name of Zarley.
Have a nice day.                                            Go Devils!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

>In article <bmartin.2...@origin.ea.com>, bma...@origin.ea.com (Brian Martin) writes:
>>Hello There,
>>
>>My name is Brian, and I am one of the many Ultima 9 team members. Right now, 
>>U9 is in the early developemental stage, and we want to know what you, the RPG 
>>fan, would like to see in the next Ultima. 
>>

I honestly think that the Ultima 7 part II was a pretty good character  
interface, and would like to see that in Ultima 9. What I mean is, you could
call up your characters, and actually place the weapons in their hands, put
earrings on them, armour, etc. to see what they actually looked like with all
that on (a big plus over the Black Gate and Ultima 6 where you just had a few
circles). U8 whilst doing it sort of, didn't really do justice to the idea.
Plus of course, the Avatar should be allowed to be female. I enjoyed playing
as both sexed Avatars in both 6 and the 7's (I especially liked 7's multiple
character portraits.)

Plus PLEASE PLEASE bring back the ability to manipulate objects from a   
distance. One of the worst things about U8 was having to get within a few feet
just to read those #@#@ signs which you should be able to read from distance
away, or trying to open a chest. While admittedly it did make for more realism
(such as areas which have chests, but have the floor trapped, but I think the
annoyance far outways it's usefullness as a construct.

I'll pass on the graphics of U8. They were pretty decent, although I agree
that the orhogonal view could do with some rethinking. Also IMHO it would be
better if the world become 'reconnected' again, rather that just joing 
segments. Although I honestly don't know how you could achieve the rapid
load ins of new sections that U7 did in such high detail continously. Certainly
just going from CD would make the game very annoying if were to pause on you
every twenty steps. Although that's probably a programming problem, you might
want to consider at least installing some of the necessities to hard disk
(such as the graphic representation of the objects, leaving the world map on
the CD).

And finally, I really can't understand why the U8 team went to all the trouble
of disabling the cheat mode and removing the subdirectory that contained the
debugging files (some people who found the cheat said that there was some 
directory it was looking for). Why dont you accept at the start that people
will eventually want to cheat to see all the hidden areas of the world, and
sell the cheat / debugging code as an add-on? (Sorta like how Silver Seed added
on all those macro keys). You'd definitely get tons of people buying it just so
they can warp and around and stuff around with the world. Makes more sense then
just trying to get rid of it, and it'd be a sure way to get extra revenue.



--
Paul Gilbert           | s940...@yallara.cs.rmit.edu.au
Bach App Sci, Bach Eng | The opinions expressed are my own, all my own, and
Year 1, RMIT Melbourne | as such will contain no references to small furry
Australia	       | creatures from Alpha Centauri.

s940...@yallara.cs.rmit.OZ.AU (Paul Francis Gilbert) writes:

>>In article <bmartin.2...@origin.ea.com>, bma...@origin.ea.com (Brian Martin) writes:
>>>Hello There,
>>>
>>>My name is Brian, and I am one of the many Ultima 9 team members. Right now, 
>>>U9 is in the early developemental stage, and we want to know what you, the RPG 
>>>fan, would like to see in the next Ultima. 
>>>

Plot, please, and a lot of it. Ultima 7 was a truly amazing game
because of just that -- the huge, engrossing plot -- not to mention
the palpable fear you felt as you kept stumbling across these murder
victims everywhere. Although U8 wasn't horrible on this point, it
certainly was lacking.

As for the solo Avatar, I really didn't mind it all that much in U8.
Half the time in U7 and 7.5, I would ditch all the members in my
party to do stuff alone anyway; they kept wandering off and getting
killed during combat. Solo isn't bad ... as long as you have good
NPC interaction (which U8 didn't have -- you'd think the people would
notice the flaming meteors and torrential rains maybe ...)

I'll risk going against popular opinion here and say that I actually
liked the magic system as it evolved through U8. I like mixing regents,
I LOVED the realism of having to arrange components around the penta-
gram in such-and-such an order (guess I got lucky with the pixels).
Please, don't simplify it to the point of making it boring.

Combat: I could stand the real time in U7, but in U8 it was ridiculous.
Fighting more than one creature at a time was impossible. Fighting
even one creature was more than a bit tough. :) I don't know what
the solution is (turn based seems a little clunky these days) but
it definitely needs to evlove.

I also thought the top-down dungeons were great -- in fact, even more
realistic than the first-person perspective. True, the U8 catacombs
got a bit annoying, but other than that, I liked the dungeons.

Finally, and I don't know how plausible this is, but could something
be done about the perpetually regenerating monsters? (most obvious
in U7) You don't know how annoying it is to -- let's say after clearing
all the dragons out of that one dungeon -- to go back and find every
single blessed one alive again. That's not even realism -- just
annoying.

I'm looking forward to U9. Let's get back to the Guardian, where this
trilogy belongs, and make it a great finale.

-jim

p.s. - Don't scrap the running and jumping and climbing -- PLEASE.
The physics, at least, kept the U8 world fun. Climbing walls,
running across rooftops. Kinda neat, actually. Just get rid of the
Super Mario Bros. bonus stages (jump, jump. splash, restore saved
game).
-- 
-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-
Jim Flynn                  ||      "It is Clarissa, he said.
aut...@eden.rutgers.edu    ||       For there she was."         -Virginia Woolf

In article <bmartin.2...@origin.ea.com>,
Brian Martin <bma...@origin.ea.com> wrote:
>Hello There,
>
>My name is Brian, and I am one of the many Ultima 9 team members. Right now, 
>U9 is in the early developemental stage, and we want to know what you, the RPG 
>fan, would like to see in the next Ultima. 

By this point, you've probably realized that Usenetters are impossible to
please.  ;)  Giving us a broad task like this means your going to get 110%
of all possible answers.  Of course, that doesn't prevent me from adding
in my own 8088 cents...

First, I would suggest a LOT of customizability.  As can be seen from this
thread, everybody's tastes are slightly different.  The more gameplay can
be customized, the better.  Reference System Shock for how it ought to be
done.  The more categories and levels of customization you have, the
happier everybody will be.  (I thought 4x4 was a little skimpy for SS.  But
since it's primarily an action game, it's not that bad.)

Combat
------
This is probably where you'll get the most conflicting opinions.  Personally,
I hate strategic combat.  Micromanaging every single #$$@%! party member
really gets in the way, and makes me feel as if I'm incarnated in 6 different
bodies, instead of playing a single character.  On the other hand, some
people love moving everything around.  Personally, I would suggest system
similar to Ultima 7's:  Allow every character to have a general strategy,
or be controlled by the player.  INCLUDING the Avatar.  Add another check
box that allows combat to proceed a) real time, b) turn by turn, or c)
character by character (like U6).  And -please,- increase combat AI for
everyone, including the monsters!

Story
-----
Big.  Epic.  Surprising.  Maybe the story could start out with the Avatar
battling the Guardian -- and winning!  Having Big Red keel over at the
beginning of the game would definitely liven things up -- as well as giving
the writers an opportunity to come up with something original.
It's an interesting challenge:  How do you keep the plot twists that make
the game interesting, yet keep the game non-linear enough to be enjoyable?
I dunno.  But I think the answer lies in a good conversation system...

NPCs
----
More!  More!  More!  Ultimas have always had less people than your average
ghost town.  (U6 had <200.  U7 may have had even less.)  Of course, writing
scripts for 1000 characters is tedious at best.  And I've always hated those
generic 'guard' like characters that always say the same three lines.
Of course, I also hate having to talk to every single person in the faint
hope that I might stumble across a clue.  Ultima 7 was just about perfect:
the 'important' people always helped you, while the 'unimportant' people
didn't necessarily help you in your quest, but always had something 
interesting happening in their lives.  Perhaps you could hire a horde of
cheap writers to handle the 'bit' parts, while the main story could be
handled by the regular team.  Whatever you do, the more non-essential
personnel (cooks, stable boys, children, servants, just plain average Joes)
in the game, the more real it feels.  Hey -- it's going to be on a CD,
right?  Fill it up!

Graphics
--------
Have you seen the Relentless demo?  (Also known as 'Little Big Adventure'.)
The characters are -perfect.-  All it needs is a graphically rich world 
for the characters to walk around in.  The way ceiling 'cut away' when
necessary is just right, as well.  None of the U8 problem of not being able
to see your character.

Sound
-----
U8 was lovely on my Sound Canvas.  As usual, I want more...  ;)  Well, you
folks spent $3 million on WC3; this time, spend the money on writers,
artists, and musicians, and give us more of what makes the game great!
(Fill it up!)  I'm not sure what I like more, though; U7's environmentally
cued music, or U8's constant area-based music.  Maybe a cross between the
two; have music playing more often, but allow each area to have a variety
of themes, so we don't get too many repeats.  (Fill it up!)

Cut-scenes
----------
Flics?  Who needs 'em!  Serpent Isle and Ultima 8 had the right idea.
Cut scenes that use the graphic engine of the game to show what's going
on.  This doesn't take up a whole lot of space, which allows you to spend
more space on music, in-game graphics, and conversations.  However, I do
like a lot of cut scenes, no matter how they're implemented.  They give
the game a feeling of moving along, as well as providing a little 'reward'
for the player.  Using the in-game graphic engine allows you to include a
lot of these without disrupting the flow of the game.  Whatever you do...
please -- no live actors.  CGI looks great, and you could spend the money
on something much more entertaining (fill it up!).

Gameplay
--------
I really like the options the Avatar had in U8.  Now, TEACH HIM HOW TO SWIM!
Ditch the required arcade jumping sequences... maybe this could be one of
the game options; or, you could simply allow another way past.  Please add
the ability to target jumps.  When was the last time you saw someone how
could jump exactly six feet -- no more, and no less?

Oh well.. that's as much as I can think of right now.  I'm sure other people
will have plenty of other ideas for you.

Thanks for giving us the opportunity to make suggestions.

-Jim Little  (ji...@teleport.com)

On the topic of what our whimps and wishes for Ultima9, here is
something new:

In Ultima 7 we have a party of, what, 8 peoples? There is some limited
ability to auto-pilot them using rudimentary command like run, charge,
or defend. Now, it will be a revolution if you can give us ability to
program party members action. Something like:

   Iolo:
   INIT no_init_spell = TRUE

   IF HP_critical critical /\ HAS_Heal_Potion Iolo THEN
      DO WITH PRIORITY 5 Use_Heal_Potion Iolo friend ;
   
   IF round < 1 /\ no_init_spell /\
      DO WITH PRIORITY 1 
         BEGIN
         spell := pick {Prayer, Invisibility, Strengh} ;
         Cast Iolo Iolo spell ;
         no_init_spell := FALSE ;
         END ;

  DO WITH PRIORITY 2
     BEGIN
     IF no_Enemy_Spell_Casters THEN
        Use Iolo Bow (Weakest_Foe)        
     ELSE Use Iolo Bow (pick Enemy_Spell_Casters) ;

and so on....

Hey, we can even let the users program the monsters. You know what,
you should deliver a monster compiler with Ultima9, that way, we can
custom the AI of your monster. Maybe you can even make a competition
of who makes the most interesting (not the thoughest!) monster!

You know, an interesting monster is a monster that is tough, but does
make mistake once and a while, like we all living beings do.

--Jade--
     

   
         
         
    
     
        
      

In article <39uml4$5...@news.ycc.yale.edu>,
Daniel Starr <dst...@minerva.cis.yale.edu> wrote:
>I.  Interface suggestions
>II.  Plot suggestions

Beautiful.  I heartily second everything Daniel had to say.  Especially the
plot suggestions.  Everything he suggested seems to be doable, and would
also add a lot to the game.

I would like to add one thing:

>11.  Genuine time pressure.
>     Repeatedly emphasize the urgency of the situation - "The
>BigNastyFolks take more of us away each day."  Count the number
>of visits I've made to cities so far.  Trigger something
>upsetting every N+(1-4) visits.  An army blockade?  A fire?  Lots
>of ways to make players' lives unpleasant without making the game
>unwinnable.  Just make sure we know the time pressure exists.

"It's never tomorrow, it's always today."  Bring back Ultima 5-like seasons.
Time should pass!  In Ultima 7, there was a plaque that announced the
presence of 'The Avatars,' a musical group -- the date was always the same!
In addition to using Daniel's excellent city/movement-based model for
event triggering, add in a minimum time for each event to occur.  I.e., if
I walk back and forth through the gates of Britain, I don't want an army
to suddenly start marching for the city.  Put a minimum time frame in there
as well; once I walk into the city once, the counter isn't incremented
again until x time units have passed.

-Jim Little  (ji...@teleport.com)

I've got a lot of "me too!"s and a few of my own suggestions here:

dst...@minerva.cis.yale.edu (Daniel Starr) writes:
>I.  Interface suggestions
>II.  Plot suggestions
> 
>I.  Interface suggestions
> 
>1.  No arcade sections.  No arcade sections.  No arcade sections.
>     "Arcade section" = any obstacle that a typical player has to
>try more than three times to get past.  Maybe even two times. 
>Absolutely the most annoying part of U8.

What he said.

Primary rule: The interface is there to help the player do what he wants.
If he has to battle the interface, he won't be interested in battling the
bad guys.  Puzzles should use brain power, not ultra-finicky reflexes.

>3.  Lots of hotkeys.
>     I want to be able to hit (C) to get a list of spells to Cast
>and (R) to Rest and so on.  I do not like mouse-only interfaces. 
>And I'm tired of mucking about through my inventory all the time. 

Speaking of the keyboard, bring back typing speech options!  Replay value 
is greatly enhanced if you can (if you remember) cut to the chase of a 
conversation, not wade through 15 menus.  Also, since one just ends up
traversing the whole menu tree to see what's under all the leaves, this
leads to a feeling that you're doing "busywork" to get the game to cough 
up info.

>5.  Idiocy-free combat.  
>     I do not ever again want to see my character sheath his
>sword in the middle of combat in order to move.  If I click on an
>enemy, I want to move up to him and swing.  If I click on a
>location, I want to dash over there.  I want my relevant objects
>and a list of spells available by hotkeys, no inventory-mucking
>required.  If it makes the player look stupid or feel clumsy, get
>rid of it.

I have yet to see an Ultima where "Flaming Oil" didn't kill more party 
members than monsters, because the NPCs were too stupid to walk around
the damn stuff.  This is true both in combat and normal walking around.
I was very annoyed at U7 when I found that, although if I was careful, 
I could notice and avoid caltrops, my party members never would.  Ditto
for lava that had safe paths in it.  Similar problems in U7 with the
Firedoom Staff always seeming to get used in close combat.  Give these 
guys half a brain!  No character should do something obviously life-
threatening without very good reason.

>6.  View rotation.
>     I'm tired of not being able to see what's going on.  And
>it's very aggravating to knock a chest where you can't see it.
>Alternatively a hotkey to turn all walls to transparent glass
>would work quite well.

Yes!  No more silly myths about not having doors on half your walls...

>8.  Text optionally visible during speech.
>     It was impossible to make out what Hydros was saying...

Yah.

Further comments:
The game should be playable lots of different ways.  If I want to go 
solo, I should be able to go without a party.  The old ways of customizing
your characters gender/race/morals all helped a *lot* with character 
identification.

Speaking of characters, bring back the portraits.  If you want an 
improvement, try giving each character a few different expressions.

Combat should be more tactically oriented, less arcade-ish.  I liked the
U5/6 combat routines.  On the other hand, I liked the feature of the U7
system that, once you had reached sufficiently high levels, you could
essentially ignore combat with low-level monsters.  I spent too much time
in U5 fighting screens full of bats and the like.

>II.  Content suggestions
> 
>1.  Game flags must make sense.  Game flags must make sense. 
>          Game flags must makes sense.
>     Whenever the game won't let one do X until one has done Y a
>reason must be explicitly given.  Nothing does more to destroy
>the suspension of disbelief than a senseless requirement.  "What,
>if the dog sniffs the medallion the barrier around the castle
>disappears?  What the heck?"  [In U8:  Why wouldn't Hydros speak
>to me until after I completed the Shrine of the Ancient Ones? 
>Why did I have to free Pyros before I could get the Ethereal
>Travel spell?  Stupid, stupid, stupid.]

Yes!  For that matter, I think that *restrictive* game flags should be
kept to a minimum.  Yes, the world should react to what I do, but flags
are often transparently arbitrary.  If you want to keep someone away
from somewhere until late in the game, put a really-hard-to-kill
monster or somesuch in front of it; not a wall that vanishes when he 
does 'X'.

Also, keep restrictions on travel to a minimum.  I was *very* annoyed
at Serpent Isle and U8 for the limited ability to be a 'tourist'.
Why do you include a map at all, if you won't let a player roam the 
world.

>2.  Satisfying resolutions.
>     If I kill a local dragon I want every single villager to
>thank me for it when they see me and most of them to have changed
>habits as a result.  If I save the world I want a big, flashing
>YOU HAVE SAVED THE WORLD sign and I want every single citizen to
>come up and shake my hand and tell me a personal anecdote about
>how I have made their lives better.  The closing animation should
>be blindingly explicit and triumphant, and resolutions during the
>game should be similarly direct.  Don't assume I know I've done a
>good deed, don't just tell me "You have done a good deed", SHOW
>ME.  There should be no doubt about the consequences of my
>actions.

Yes!  Good example here would be Martian Dreams, which had a lot of
'end-game' speeches people could give to you.

Also, people should react not only to the end-game, but to *all* 
significant (to them, at least) changes in the game-world.  If I go
back to a town after a lot of local adventures, I want the NPCs to 
have heard about some of them, and react.

No Generic People! (Except maybe guards).  One of the best things about
U7 was all the little life-stories in Brittania, and the fact that most of
them *weren't* directly tied to the main plot.

>4.  Evil people should be evil during the game, too.
>     I want to make good friends and useful allies only to have
>them kidnapped with taunting notes left behind.  I want to see
>innocents taken away screaming.  I want Blackthorn and the
>Shadowlords (U5) -- enemies who make my quest difficult on a
>personal, direct and regular basis.  I want personal reasons to
>be upset with the enemy.  

Yes, and see also Time Pressure, below.

>7.  Lots of small figure-it-out-yourself puzzles.
>     Using brain = fun.  Give me lots of opportunities to piece
>information together.  I'm investigating the Widgets, say:  an
>apprentice says the Mage of Veils was interested in Widgets but
>has now "vanished, I know not where"; but the innkeeper says that
>a bard told him there was a carnival with caged Widgets in North
>Vespers.... so where might the Mage of Veils be, hmm?

Inferring connections is *much* more satisfying than being handed an
itinerary of tasks to do and places to go.

>8.  Lots of common knowledge.
>     Everyone in town should be able to give me directions to
>buildings in town; and if there's a plague, everyone should have
>something to say about it.  "No man is an island."

Yes, and this is another argument for ditching the menu interactions and
going back to the keyboard.  We all *have* keyboards, why ignore them?!
Good Example: in U5, most NPCs had interesting things to say when prompted
with "Shadowlord", "British" and "Blackthorn".

>10.  Lots of dynamism in the world.
>     Gypsies and bards who move from town to town.  Roving
>brigands.  Armies on the march.  Lots of things to keep the
>Avatar on his toes.  Just don't make any obvious links to
>unrelated game events -- if the army marches into York right
>after I free the Princess, every single time, it looks stupid. 
>Instead, try "The army will march into York as soon as the player
>has completed one of plot objectives A, B, and C and has visited
>1-6 (random) more cities."  (Time-based flags don't work too well
>if the player works quickly.  Instead, increment the counter each
>time the player goes into a city different from the last city
>visited.  Or count the number of conversations.  Or both.)
> 
>11.  Genuine time pressure.
>     Repeatedly emphasize the urgency of the situation - "The
>BigNastyFolks take more of us away each day."  Count the number
>of visits I've made to cities so far.  Trigger something
>upsetting every N+(1-4) visits.  An army blockade?  A fire?  Lots
>of ways to make players' lives unpleasant without making the game
>unwinnable.  Just make sure we know the time pressure exists.

YESYESYES!  Plot Events which are *obviously* triggered by player
actions, but in the context of Brittania are independent or time-
based really tend to ruin the suspension of disbelief.  Might be a
good idea to have customizability of this, a la System Shock, although
I think Daniel's ideas here are *much* more intruiging than a simple 
time limit.

As a bad example, in U7, The members of the Fellowship that you try to 
trace have *always* just left wherever you are until the end game.  This
feels way artificial.  Time should pass, both for players and NPCs.

>12.  Rewards for the clever and alternatives for the rest.
>     Let there be a wandering Oracle who requires onerous tasks
>in return for hints.  If you can't figure out where the Mage of
>Veils is, you go hunt down the Oracle.  This lets there be
>serious brain-working puzzles without making the game impossible. 
>Just heavily advertise the Oracle, and make the tasks harder each
>time.  "Back again so soon?  Good -- I need the skulls of three
>dragons from the northern mountains..."

Repeat after us: Non-linear.  Customizable.  Multiple Paths.

One of the major plusses of Myst (and to a lesser extent, U7) was
multiple possible endings, including bad ones.  If no matter what I do,
the Guardian *doesn't* win, then I feel less involved in stopping him.
A spectrum of Bad-Soso-Good endings would be interesting, and add replay 
value.

One final comment:
One of the things I missed in U8 was the element of moral choice.  The
Avatar should have to make hard decisions, and they should *matter*.  When
I was faced with the choice of betraying one of two necromancers, I thought
I had such a choice, but a little save-and-restore exploring showed that the
two paths were virtually identical.  Choices should make a difference.
Blackthorn's death-threat in U5 came close to this, but did not go far 
enough, IMHO.

Alexx

Al...@netcom.com
"The trouble about trying to make yourself stupider than you really
 are is that you very often succeed."
      -- from The Magician's Nephew

John Sabean (doc...@eng.umd.edu) wrote:

: In article <bmartin.2...@origin.ea.com>, bma...@origin.ea.com (Brian Martin) writes:
: >Hello There,
: >
: >My name is Brian, and I am one of the many Ultima 9 team members. Right now, 
: >U9 is in the early developemental stage, and we want to know what you, the RPG 
: >fan, would like to see in the next Ultima. 
: >
Thanks very much for listening (reading) our comments.
So you've learnt from Ultima 8. Please don't forget about the good points of
Ultima 8. The good points being that it was a very good Rpg type of game,
where the player had to do things, and really interact with the world. I
absoultely loved the magic system in U8. Things like actually creating that
wand of fireball, instead of stumbling across one every once in while.
Actually mixing the regeants like we had to back in U5, the combat system,
you really are on the right track, if you could improve it. It was once
again interactive, where we tell the avatar what to do.

Ways to improve the combat system are to use keys, that way the avatr can
have more control over what he does. I don't know how many times I want to
swing, but double clicked to fast, and ended up blocking instead, which by
the way was utterly useless. So make blocking actually effective. 

The world in U8 was kind of good in places as well. Please keep climbing,
running, jumping, I can do that in the real world, so their fore, since the
Avatar is from earth, so can he. But I can do more than that, I can also
swim, climb back down, I've never tried to ride a horse, but people can. So
the activiities that can be done by the average person, should also be able
to be done by the avatar. Please re-introduce ship travel as well.

Tell your world builders to play the Ultima 7 games and to take note of some
things, such as the royal mint be swapped by a lighthouse (speaking of
lighthouses, re-introduce them, I was completely blown away when I saw the
light house effects in U5, it took me quite a while to pick my jaw up off
the ground, and I played U5 whilst waiting for U8...)
Also more textures for some of theose areas as well, sometimes whilst
playing U8, I found it had to tell the difference between in door and
outdoor areas. Bring back night and day, every since U5, night and day has
been a part of Brittania (I wonder what the people thought when they first
saw the sun go down hmmm...)  Sorry, couldn't resist :)

One problem I had with U8, was getting a good conversation out of someone.
When we did get one, it was good, and long and realistic, but those
instances were few and far between. In U7, everyone had a story to tell, and
it made me feel as if I was in Brittania. Some conversations were long, some
short, but it seems as if the world was full of people. In U8, maybe it was
the intention to make the world seem dead, and without hope, because no one
was real interested in speaking to the Avatar. Also have conversation trees,
where conversation can go down several paths. It gets kind of pointless to
be given a list of options, like in the Serpent Isle, where you're
everntually going to klick on all options anyway. Keep the option where the
Avatar can leave a conversation at any time though.

Automapping is essential. allow us to acquire a land map, and whilst in
dungeons, keep an automap of the dungeons. Also a diary to keep our notes
in. When I first purchased U8 CD, and installed the game, I was flipping
through tthe manual and noticed the word diary, and got very excited, until
I found it was another name for "save/load game". Although the longer
descriptions were quite a good idea though.

I trust you'll do a good job with story, but please make it easy to tell the
legends from fact, in U8,m it wasn't easy, maybe the now defunct add on was
going to add some of those things in. But since the game takes place on
Brittania, unless it is far in advance, we should know what's true, and
what's not true.

Keep the U8 camera angle, but either allow us to get a top down view of the
world, or allow us to rotate the camera angle.

PS: one thing I want to add to the avatar actions, is an  underwater mode
I can swim underwater as well, for a short time, and could add something new
if we could dive underwater looking for something, maybe the avatar could
make a snorkel, and face mask, and look for something underwater.

Also, non critical quests would be nice. U8 had some but every town in U7
had something going on that wasn't critical, and every time I play through
U&, I discover something new, 4 times I think the count is, and when I go
back, their are some more things I've heard of as well, that goes with U7.5
as well.
That's all I can think of at the moment (I don't ask much do I :)) and I'm
sure someone will write and say the exactg oppoiste to what I've just said,
but just remember I'm right, he's wrong. (just kidding)
Also remember that your target audience is an RPG audience, not super mario
nintendo rubbish.
-- 
.__________________________________________________________________________.
|Internet: pfle...@scu.edu.au                                             |
| One hour from now WING COMMANDER 3 will be one hour closer to release    | 
|__________________________________________________________________________|

Actually, I think what is important for you (ORIGIN) is to create something 
that will be interesting to the thrill seeking players, while also making 
something that the die-hard RPGers will enjoy.  U8 was a step in the right 
direction, but it ended up swinging too much towards the thrill seekers.  

A game that has a lot of interaction, and the ability to do almost everything 
in that's possible in real life (that doesn't necessarily mean having 400 
frames for the avatar -- just that he can interact with almost ANYTHING).  U7 
was probably my favorite Ultima because of the large world and numerous quests 
along with great graphics.  Add to that a little less linearity, multiple ways 
to come to complete the quests, and high interactivity.  This should entail a 
blockbuster game.  Also remember that the people here are all die hard RPGers. 
If you only make the game for them, then your sales will not be nearly as high 
as if you make the game for the ENTIRE market.  The ultimate purpose of making 
a game is to make money (which is too bad).  

Josh

In article <Cz3u...@cs.ruu.nl>, Wishnu Prasetya <wis...@cs.ruu.nl> wrote:
>Now, it will be a revolution if you can give us ability to program
>party members action. Something like:
>
>   Iolo:
>   INIT no_init_spell = TRUE
>
>   IF HP_critical critical /\ HAS_Heal_Potion Iolo THEN
>      DO WITH PRIORITY 5 Use_Heal_Potion Iolo friend ;
>   
>   IF round < 1 /\ no_init_spell /\
>      DO WITH PRIORITY 1 
>         BEGIN
>         spell := pick {Prayer, Invisibility, Strengh} ;
>         Cast Iolo Iolo spell ;
>         no_init_spell := FALSE ;
>         END ;

[article clipped here]

The above technique of sequential branching to build a strategy for
real-time combat may not be appropriate; it would not allow
for Iolo to "learn from past mistakes".  Instead of the player
offering a static list of options for Iolo to choose from, organising
strategy options in the following manner might be more appropriate.



						   success[+]
						 /
						/
				     | cast spell [23]
				  /  | use melee weapon [31]
				 /              \
				/                \
						  failure[-]        flee[61]
	enemy	     | 	attack[7]				    /		
	range < 10m  |  heal[11] 				   /
	[3]						     check health
      /				\			  /	   \
     /				 \			 /          \
    /				  \  | self [37:7]   ---|          remain[67]  
   /				     | other [41:11] ---|
  /
 /
/						   
Iolo					  	   success [+]
\						 /
 \						/
  \				     | cast spell [43]
   \				  /  | use missile weapon [51]
    \				 /              \
     \				/		 \
      \						   failure[-]	      flee[71]
       \                                                            /
        enemy 	      |	attack[13]				   /
	range > 10m   | heal[17]			     check health
	[5]			\		 	  /        \
				 \		         /          \ 
			          \  | self [53:53]  ---|           remain[73]
				     | other [57:57] ---|



This binary tree structure of strategy options provides a much faster
searching scheme than a linear sequence of options.  A linear representation
requires you to explicitly indicate virtually *every* possible outcome for
a particular situation -- not difficult, but rather time consuming.  A binary
tree representation, however, allows rapid searches, compares and even
additions of new strategy options.  Operations on a binary tree often
require a simple "yes-or-no" comparison and you are able to exclude a
large portion of possibilities.

Consider the advantages of the above scheme by the following example: 

---

Suppose Iolo spots a troll 15m away, attacks with a spell but it
has *no* affect for some reason.  By following the path that led to
this conclusion we add the option numbers (OP) along the way to 
calculate the strategy combination value (SC).  We also note the parity
for success or failure.  From this we get 61 (5+13+43) with a single
negative parity.  Notice how the OP for one of the flee options is also 61.
Iolo now has the option of retreating available to him.  We can stall Iolo's
attempt to flee by setting some condition that states that a single negative
parity result is no reason to run away.  If this is the case, Iolo can now
choose *any* strategy -- even a retreat!  He could advance, prepare a First
Circle spell and attack (SC = 33) or even step back a few metres to a safe
distance and heal himself with a potion before entering hand-to-hand combat
(SC = 75).  An already injured Iolo will more likely choose a strategy
with a high SC. 


*Note that the OP values are prime numbers and are arranged in a specific
 order.  This numbering scheme prevents unlikely "counter-strategies"
 to arise. 


Now let us suppose that Iolo advances forward to within 5m of the enemy.
He already knows that a strategy combination (SC) that totaled 61 had no
effect so it would be unlikely that he will try again.  Iolo, instead,
decides to unsheath his sword and attack.  Luckily, the blade strikes
the creature and inflicts a grevious wound.  Iolo's current SC value
for his decision is now 51 (3+7+31) with a single positive parity.  Iolo
now has a choice of *two* options, continue with his sword attack
(because of the single positive parity) or withdraw and opt for his
crossbow since the missile attack option (OP) from beyond 10m is also
assigned a value of 51. :-)

Iolo notices that the troll is now running towards Shamino.  Iolo then
decides to fire at the creature with a magic crossbow bolt.  Although
the bolt struck the creature, the attack did little to deter the troll
from attacking his trusted ally.  Iolo is now aware that any SC value
of 69 (5+13+51) with a single negative parity has little chance for
success.  Realising that giving up after one try is the trademark of
wimps ... Iolo decides to remain in battle because the average of the
"remain" options [(67+73) / 2] is greater than Iolo's current SC of 69. :-)

Iolo will seriously reconsider the situation if he tries many times
with his missile attack with no affect (this can be represented with
many negative parity results and the fact that the "flee average" of 66
is less than Iolo's current SC of 69).

In the third round of battle, Iolo notices that Shamino is lying
on the ground clutching at his side in obvious pain.   Suddenly
Iolo himself is set upon once again by the hungry troll.  Iolo must now decide
if he should help his fallen comrade or defend himself!  Because the
troll is just within arm's reach of Iolo and Shamino, the SC value for
helping the injured fellow is 55 (3+11+41) while the OP value for attacking
is either 23 or 31.  Being a true friend, Iolo decides to forego his attack
and assist his long-time friend (since a SC of 55 is greater than the average 
attack OP value for an enemy within 10m).  Now you are wondering, won't
this make Iolo *and* Shamino vulnerable to the troll attack?  This is true,
but notice the number after the colon.  This number is used to determine the
"risk" of the action.

A second strategy combination (SC2) has a value of only 25 (3+11+11).
SC2 is now less than the average attack OP value of 27 [(23+31) / 2].
This result will deter Iolo's initial choice using a healing potion on
Shamino.  Instead, Iolo will assist Shamino by *defending* his friend in
combat (remember the troll is now close enough to strike at both of them).
If however, the troll was more than 10m away (a much safer distance), Iolo
will certainly cast a spell or use a potion to heal Shamino since SC2 will
be 79 (5+17+57), a much larger value than the average attack OP value of 47
[(43+51) / 2].

----

Modifiers to the OP numbers can be attributed to the current health
of the character.  A critically wounded Iolo, for example, may have an
initial OP of more that 65.  As such, Iolo is more likely to flee from a
creature that is very close to him; whereas he may decide to fire a
crossbow bolt at the creature more than 30m away before reassessing his
situation.  He may even decide to heal himself!


This development of strategies is not only logical but also very easy
to program and maintain.

 
.Hin.




 


       

Daniel Starr (dst...@minerva.cis.yale.edu) wrote:
: I.  Interface suggestions
: II.  Plot suggestions
:  
: I.  Interface suggestions
:  
To the U9 developers, print out Daniel Starr's original post, and do that.
It would make a great Ultima. Sure some of the ideas are going to be hard to
implement, and take a lot of thought on how to do some of them, but so what
if it makes a game with few complaints (No matter what you do, not every one
is going to be happy :()

Also have character development that's going to last me then entire game
under normal circumstances. I've played X-com, and should be getting the
game tomorrow, and one thing I loved was seeing my more experianced team
members stats go up up. Nahlakh seems very good in this way. My first play
through of U8, figuring out that first lever puzzle on my way to Mythrans
house virtually maximised my stats with all the ghouls I killed.
Also no wandering monsters, once I've fought the fight, surely I've proven
that I can win, why keep fighting the same monsters. Although I will admit
that they way you guys do the wandering monster bit is at least sensible,
with monsters appearing at certain places. Also what about a random quest
generator, this would add replayability to the game, as well as longevity to
the game. I still play Privateer CD, even though I got through the main
plotline ages ago.
-- 
.__________________________________________________________________________.
|Internet: pfle...@scu.edu.au                                             |
| One hour from now WING COMMANDER 3 will be one hour closer to release    | 
|__________________________________________________________________________|

NNNNOOOOO!!!!!!!!
For the love of Virtue keep the automap!
I would never, from choice, buy a game that didn't have one.  It takes
nothing away from exploration and allows the designers to create complex
environments.  Any fool can map a game with a pencil and squared paper.

Do game designers want to reward people for pausing the game after each move
and marking a square on a pice of paper?
-- 
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~||~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~||
| Nick Hadlow                ||"Et semel emissum volat irrevocabile      ||
| UK                         ||                                verbum"   ||
| Ni...@tungle.demon.co.uk    ||  - Horace                                ||
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hey, when you ask the Usenet for suggestions, we give
SUGGESTIONS...
 
(I incidentally disagree with Allen Petersen (I think) about Origin
adopting suggestions here.  Ultima 9 will be out over a year from
now even if the schedule holds; some of the ideas here are
obvious anyway; and none would foreshadow future events even if
you noticed.  I'll buy a drink for anyone who really and truly
while playing U9 thinks "Hey, I know what's coming, I read this
last year on c.s.i.p.rpg!")
 
For readability fans or latecomers, the updated whole list
follows in the next post.  (Brian, are you sorry you asked yet?)
 
Inspired by posts since my earlier one (note 16,17,19 are due to
others), here are 
 
More Plot Suggestions
 
16.  A positive ultimate goal.
     The unique charm of U4 and U5 was the goal: not merely to
destroy an enemy but to accomplish something good.  U9 should do
the same.  Perhaps one seeks to heal a cataclysm-wracked land? 
To revitalize the Way of the Avatar?  (To do the first, and
discover this requires doing the second?)  Of course, the
Guardian et al should stand squarely in the way of this goal...
 
17.  A hidden ultimate goal.
     Games that hide my final goal until late are much more
effective than ones that announce "You must kill Foozle the Bad"
during the intro.  I'm not talking about "This Widget lets you
win the game" [Serpent Isle, U8], but about a fundamental new
direction -- not to destroy a people but to save it, not to find
a temple but to build it oneself, not to cure a plague but to
lead a migration.  U6 and Wasteland come to mind.
 
18.  Do trick me.  But make it serious and fair.
     Raise your hand if you really thought the Fellowship was
nice in U7....  Surprises like Ultima 6's are great, U9's
technology could make them extremely potent, and guilt is a
terrific motivation.  But don't expect me to fall for the
obvious, and don't expect me to feel guilt over something
required to win the game.  (U8:  "Stellos, if you have a problem
you can take it up with Lord British.  They're his game flags,
not mine.")  It won't affect me unless I realize I had a way to
find out the truth and avoid it.  Don't _force_ me to be a
dupe... just make it very attractive, and the result ghastly.  :)
"Lord Draxinusom, here is the last piece of the Portal of
Powerful Popsicles."  "My thanks, Avatar.  Now..."  "Lord
Draxinusom -- your face, it's -- oh my..."
 
19.  A BIG world.
      Pagan's most serious content problem was that there wasn't
enough content.  U9 should be as big as U5, in both population
and geography.
 
20.  Remake Britannia with magic.
      I don't want to see the same old Britannia; I do want to
see some form of Britannia; I don't want to see technology and
the Industrial Revolution.  Instead, let the writers come up with
some nifty ideas for a Magical Revolution.  Is there a flying
carpet taxi service?  Do the rich have roofs that vanish during
sunshine but reappear in the rain?  Do debutantes apply
costume-enhancement potions before going to the ball?  (Just
don't put in a blatant environmentalist message -- moral
questions should be subtle.)
 
21.  Lots of toys.
      One of the best parts of an RPG is playing with an
environment -- that's what distinguishes it from a straight
adventure in the first place.  We want flying carpets, floating
glow-bulbs, self-guided butterfly nets, magic tape recorders,
anything and everything.  (Just as long as they're cheap to
program.)  Cool weapons are especially appreciated.  And I second
the posters who wanted to see Smith the talking horse and the
moon-based moongates again.
 
22.  Make quests implicit, not explicit.
      Whenever someone says "Avatar, you must fetch X", I think
"Oh, boy, another hoop to jump through.  What fun."  Instead, let
me deduce from peoples' conversation and from books that
_someone_ must fetch X, and then decide to do it for myself.  If
I don't know what to do next, I can always ask my adviser
companion (see #14) for a nudge.
 
23.  Make quests meaningful to the player.  (Down with Widgets!)
      Avoid "Fetch the Wondrous Widget of Subplot Solving".  The
"Doohickey of Doom" means nothing to me.  While problems should
be epic (war, plague, eruptions, demons, curses) they should have
practical ramifications and solutions.  E.g., go find a healer /
negotiate peace / delve into the volcano / close the demon-portal
/ appease the witch.  These engage my imagination and make the
world more real to me; widgets don't.  And if you have to make up
a whole song and dance to explain the seriousness of the
situation, skip it.  ("Oh, Avatar, the Bannner of Boondock has
been in our family for centuries and I simply can't run the
ceremony without it and...") 
 
24.  Make required quests attractive to the player.
      I and everyone else were absolutely eager to destroy the
Shadowlords in Ultima 5, because the Shadowlords were such a pain
to the Avatar.  In a long game, just advancing the plot can be a
very unrewarding reward; I'll enjoy each subplot much more if I
can expect a practical result to show for it.   (E.g.: the dragon
no longer swoops down to torch me every 3-6 cities.  The Sword of
Seven Seals is a great weapon.  The smiths of Moria, with their
mithril weapons, are now reopened for business.  The Sodenburg
militia can now join the war effort, pushing the enemy back and
making the Silver Tower accessible to me.) 
 
25.  Make side quests diverting.
     Make sure the script is sufficient to make the player want
to take time out to do the side quest.  Beware of quests that are
pathetic in context:  "Oh, Avatar, I know the world will end in
three days, but could you please rescue my baby in the far-off
Dungeon of Doom?"  Really, non-dramatic side quests are best --
romance, comedy, or a nifty treasure.  There's already plenty of
drama on the Avatar's plate.
 
26.  Script the enemies' actions, not the player's.
     Exploration is half the fun of an RPG, and the sequence of
the player's quests should be the player's decision.  At all
costs avoid Serpent Isle's convenient shipwrecks, kangaroo courts
of unresistable mages, and blatant travel restrictions.  Let me
do the subplots in any order I want -- do you really, really need
to force a particular order?  Why?  Let independent enemy actions
raise tension (see "Genuine time pressure", #11).  Make the
obstacles to "improper" success practical instead of arbitrary. 
In Ultima 5, descending into Doom without the Crown or Scepter
would get you fried by fireballs and forcefields long before you
got to Lord British.  This is good:  I am the hero, I get to make
the decisions, stupid or not!
 
27.  No unjustified formulaic quest patterns.
      No nine map pieces.  No "each town has its own unique,
self-contained problem to solve".  No prescripted wild goose
chases.  These reek of artificiality.  In real life problems
sometimes come two to a city or zero to a city and more often
than not involve more than one city.  If the player has enough
work to do and if every place affects the main plot somehow,
that's sufficient.  (The exception is where the division is
natural -- a quest assigned by each of eight shrines, say.)
 
28.  End with the player enacting a lingering, meaningful ritual.
      This is Ultima!  This is the last great adventure of the
Avatar!  We don't need a final battle.  We need a closing of the
circle with U4; let the player enact a ritual of significant
length, with meaning for the series as well as U9.  Perhaps with
a final scene in a dark, abandoned temple... where a hollow voice
utters, "Wilt thou lie?"  "Nay."  "Wherefore?"  "Honesty."  "Wilt
thou give aid?"  "Aye."  "Wherefore?"  "Compassion." ... and as
he spoke the runes on the seal of the temple floor began to glow,
one by one... ...and... [roll triumphant endgame animation] 
[roll credits]

-- 
Daniel Starr           |  Graphics CPU demand will peak in 1995;
starr-...@yale.edu  |  AI is the processor hog of the future.
                       | --------------------------------------------------    
"Scuppers. Hosepipe."  |  PC with 10^10 neurons: 40-80 years. (Moore's law)

ja...@ecf.toronto.edu was talking about:
: In article <Cz3u...@cs.ruu.nl>, Wishnu Prasetya <wis...@cs.ruu.nl> wrote:

: >  [linear Iolo code]

: [article clipped here]

: ['learning' Iolo binaray tree]

  Good Lord!  With this much from you guys on AI and programming, we 
could practicly get U9 programed for Origin!  Oh... and instead of a 
biniary tree, a 2-3Btree might work better, as it would give more initial 
options that just 'attack/flee'.  ie..

                        Attack  Move  Flee
                         /       |       \
                    (attack      |         \ 
                       types)  (Move        (Run away)
                              into better
                              postition -- 
                           like hide in a bush)  

							-- Jason
(are you getting all this Brian??  :)
--
  "In another world, in a time to come" ...  maybe Ultima will return;
  and since Origin is listening, you bet it will!!  Thanks Brian Martin!
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  When your enemy brings up your | Jason's Sega Page (for 32X & Saturn!)  
  past, remind him of his future |     http://www.uidaho.edu/~hill931

Well I like the interface of U7.5 very much. But a few things could be improved.
1) When I'm in a dungeon why can I see sections that are totally unaccessable
   from my current position? Allthough in a few situations this is very helpfull to
   see which enemy comes next it's a bit unrealistic and a step back in opposit to 
   U5.
2) Why not letting the avatar break wooden doors if he wants? If the door is
    special it could be metal improved.
3) A special container for keys and perhaps a possibility to label them because if
   you have 4 golden keys which look all the same it gets very bordom to try them
   every time you want to open a door.
4) Esspecially containers of U7 are very often unorganized as hell.
5) A real parser for communications (Perhaps a cheat like in U6 :-) with Iolo)
6) Well in U7.5 I have the feeling that the avatar is a little bit sleepy in combat
    while all other characters work like real experts in a turbo mode :-).
7) I'd like to have a bigger country. The current landscape is to small in my
    opinion to put that much cities upon. Anyway more landscape would mean
   more place for dungeon entries.
8) What about a dungeon editor for additional selfmade adventures if the main
    task is solved? This means a real adventuring system and not a single adventure.
9) Next time I don't want to save Britannia again. What about different tasks like
   rescuing a princess, supporting LB in a war (with spies, castles and large
   armies), discovering ancient cities with great treasure and a lot of secrets.
   Perhaps it would be possible to place several smaller games in the
   adventurers paradise (-> 8) and not to have only one subject that starts and
   ends the game when solved.
   Perhaps a more detailed experience system will be nessecary for this type of
   game while character not only gain experience but learn to use a special thing
   or forget about it's usage. This would prevent from getting a party of unbeatable
   superheros to be thrown in the next adventure.

Just a few thoughts.

Bye Ove.
--
Ove Kalkan - Ich denke, das ich bin, also bin ich.
Rechenanlage des Mechanikzentrums der Technischen Universitaet Braunschweig
Tel: (0531) 391 7074
Email: kal...@ramz.ing.tu-bs.de

Whoa! Talk about a every-little-thing-you-ever-wanted-to-see-in-an-ultima-right-
down-to-the-keystrokes-you-need-to-press-and-the-assembly-code-that-should-be-used
thread! Talk about micromanaging! :)

Anyways, it seems there is a big consensus that Ultima V probably had the
best story of all of the Ultimas. A friend of mine and I talked for about
a couple hours on why we both became so addicted to this game.

We had both played Ultima IV and loved it. It was a unique game with a 
unique idea. No big bad monster to kill at the end of the game. No treasure
to win. No prize to fight for. The whole idea was to make your character
a better person. Plain and simple. To do this, it was essential to learn 
everything you could about the world you lived it. Its people, its philosphies.
It was a world you knew next to nothing about, it was completely new.

You start off in Ultima V in this world as the exact same person you were
when you left. You knew of the history of this world. Just enough history
to be placed in the middle of it. The world which you grew to love in Ultima IV
is turned upside down. Lord British is gone. The virtues which you learned 
so much about in Ultima IV were being twisted around by the new ruler and
the Shadowlords. The fact that the shadowlords were spawned from the
shards of the gem of Mondain, the idea of an ancient evil reborn in a 
more modern light. The plot was not only an interesting one, but it
completely wrapped around you. It was personal. This is what role playing
is about. Its not about watching a little dude on the screen run around
and jump over rocks, or bake bread, or whatever.

You guys have such an opportunity to do this again. If that last scene in
Ultima 8 was Britannia, you are well on your way, don't screw it up. If the
plot is "The Guardian has taken over Britainia and you have to stop him",
and thats it, you'll fail. 

If Britainia is completely destroyed and you walk through the ruins, this game
can be made personal. What happens when you go to Cove and find out something
horrible happened to that person that fell in love with you (remember that
person that took care of the shrine of compassion?). Better yet, what if you
travel to LB's castle, to talk to him and see him take his final breath? 
If you want to make this game to appeal to fans of the Ultima series, then
you have a big opportunity to shock them. There are all sorts of ideas that
could be used. What if it was the Guardian who originally consorted with Mondain
to help him create his gem and take over Britania, but its only now that the
Avatar has proved himself such a threat that the Guardian has decided to take
matters into his own hands (such as at the end of U7.5... sorry, the pun was
just too obvious....) 

Use the rich history of this world you have created. Don't be so concerned with
newer, bigger, and better. Of course originality is necessary, but as you 
showed in Ultima V, this can be achieved by simply building on what you
already have.

So, interface, animation, graphics, combat, etc... aside, this is what
I thought made the Ultima series so great. It was something that was lost
around Ultima 7.5 and completely lost in Ultima 8.

In addition to all the good things that I've read about that should
be included in Ultima 9 the one thing I think should be included concerns 
the plot.

In Ultima 8 the Avatar trashed his virtues. It's happened. None of
us enjoyed that but it's part of the story now. The Guardian set out
what he planned to do. To make the Avatar the "pitiful hero of a fallen
ideal." (insert horrible laugh). In the course of the story now only
did the character have to steal and murder to advance through the game - 
(Thou has lost an eighth......) but by the end he leaves Pagan in even
worse shape then he found it. The ends should not justify the means.
At least not the a person who claims to be an Avatar.

Therefore in Ultima 9 some of the character devolpment should deal
with the Avatar trying to regain the virtues he lost and becoming the
Avatar again and not in just in name only. Origin could have some
wicked fun in this. We could find out that all the actions taken on
Pagan had a equal impact on Brittianna and it's the Avatar and not the
Guardian who in fact destroys Lord British's relm. Or LB, seeing the
depths to which the Avatar has fallen, could summon a new warrior to
take the quest of the Avatar and part of the game would be spent in 
competion with this computer character.

Of course my personal favorite is having a reformed Blackthorn,
maybe on the road to Avatarism himself, come in at the last min.
to save the day. He....He...He....

Jim

Hail, fellow Ultima RPGers!

>First of all, let me say its great to see someone is listening....

Let me just point out that 'tis were the Ultima Dragons who drew the 
attention of Origin to here.

If you would like to join us or need more info regarding our club, please 
check out alt.games.ultima.dragons or mail Ethereal Dragon at 
sbri...@netcom.com.

Thank you for your attention.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    /*\-\/*\-\	:(			SwiftHeart Dragon
   (********) )	Due to the absence of	swif...@access.mbnet.mb.ca
    \******/ /	my faithful sidekick	-==(UDIC)==-
     \****/ /	SwiftHeart Rabbit, I	"Ultima rules!"
       \/_/	shall be using this plain old heart for some time to 
		come...

In article <784770...@tungle.demon.co.uk> Ni...@tungle.demon.co.uk (Nick Hadlow) writes:

>NNNNOOOOO!!!!!!!!
>For the love of Virtue keep the automap!
>I would never, from choice, buy a game that didn't have one.  It takes
>nothing away from exploration and allows the designers to create complex
>environments.  Any fool can map a game with a pencil and squared paper.

>Do game designers want to reward people for pausing the game after each move
>and marking a square on a pice of paper?

I still disagree.  I like the maps the way they are.  Please no automap, it 
gives away to much and it takes away from the "spookieness" of being in a 
Dungeon.  

Please, please, please, please, don't coddle us.  The suggestions about things 
like a reagent bag are great, because they make the interface more 
transparent (which is the goal, right?)

A feature like automap takes away a major decision.  Should I run like hell 
the whole way through the dungeon, or should I take my time and map it out?  
Let me make the choice as to which is more beneficial.

When I first played Doom, I didn't know there was an automap, I still haven't 
played it a lot, but now that I know there's an automap, I find myself relying 
on it and 'cheating' by using it to figure out stuff...

By the way there was a point made before about the U9 programmers trusting 
themselves and not making "Ultima by committee."  This is probably the best 
suggestion so far...
_________________________                 _________________________       
Mike Pisarczyk           |#####     #####| If you choose not to
                         |######   ######|  decide you still have
mvpi...@engprn.mobil.com  ### ## ## ###     made a choice.
                           ###  ###  ###                      -Rush
My opinions are my own!  |#####     #####|
_________________________|#####     #####|_GO BLUE!________________
     

wis...@cs.ruu.nl (Wishnu Prasetya) writes:

>On the topic of what our whimps and wishes for Ultima9, here is
>something new:

>In Ultima 7 we have a party of, what, 8 peoples? There is some limited
>ability to auto-pilot them using rudimentary command like run, charge,
>or defend. Now, it will be a revolution if you can give us ability to
>program party members action. Something like:

>   Iolo:
>   INIT no_init_spell = TRUE

>   IF HP_critical critical /\ HAS_Heal_Potion Iolo THEN
>      DO WITH PRIORITY 5 Use_Heal_Potion Iolo friend ;
>   
>   IF round < 1 /\ no_init_spell /\
>      DO WITH PRIORITY 1 
>         BEGIN
>         spell := pick {Prayer, Invisibility, Strengh} ;
>         Cast Iolo Iolo spell ;
>         no_init_spell := FALSE ;
>         END ;

>  DO WITH PRIORITY 2
>     BEGIN
>     IF no_Enemy_Spell_Casters THEN
>        Use Iolo Bow (Weakest_Foe)        
>     ELSE Use Iolo Bow (pick Enemy_Spell_Casters) ;

>and so on....

>Hey, we can even let the users program the monsters. You know what,
>you should deliver a monster compiler with Ultima9, that way, we can
>custom the AI of your monster. Maybe you can even make a competition
>of who makes the most interesting (not the thoughest!) monster!

>You know, an interesting monster is a monster that is tough, but does
>make mistake once and a while, like we all living beings do.

>--Jade--
>     

Hell, just distribute the source code :)

What I would like to see in U9:

1) From reading these messages, it seems that most people are for a 
highly complex combat/talking system. I thought that U7 & 8 got it right, 
and I definetely want to use my mouse to do all of the above. U8 combat 
was a bit rough, but with the reintroduction of a party, it should be 
great. I do not want to have to use the keyboard to talk, and combat 
should be as quick and easy as can be, since it is after all not the most 
important aspect of the game.
2) Since U9 will be on a CD, it must be FULL!! By that I mean that we 
want lots of interaction with people, places and objects. I want to be 
able to have a job in a bakery, go sailing, fishing, flying, ie:I should 
be able to spend a week in a city looking around without being killed by 
a ghoul or a pack of kids (U8) while guards are hanging around and going 
about their everyday buisiness. I want a huge world, with lots of places 
to see (more like U7). When I started U8, I was very dissapointed to find 
that I could only become a Necromencer, and when I decided to walk 
around, there was nowhere for me to go as any creature would kill me in 2 
moves.
3) Full speech would be great, as long as I can understand what people 
are saying.
4) U8 had great graphics, and I am sure that U9 will be even better, but 
please, make sure i can recover an object behind a wall or something. The 
idea of a transparent wall hotkey seems like a good idea for this.
5)Locating objects like reagents in your bag MUST be made simpler and 
other people have also made good sugestions to that effect.ie: when I 
pick up some reagents, they should pile up in my bag and not be all over 
the place.
6)The top view or angled top view from U8 was fine, and I do not want a 
Doom like UW like front on view. It gives me headaches, and you cant see 
enough of what I am hoping will be a huge and beautiful world.
7) The atmosphere in U8 was morbid all along, with foes at every corner, 
and frankly, that sux. I want more happy people around, happy cities and 
pubs wher you feel like sitting down and having a beer with your mates.
More pubs, Casinos, whorehouses, Markets and the like make a hard days 
work really pleasant and were some of the great features of U7. So I want 
them back!!!

	In conclusion, I hope you take notice of the various comments 
made by everyone and relise that we want a large world with many things 
to do. We dont want to have to become a Necromencer to become an airman 
to become a fireman to become a... to become a...etc... If you've played 
U8 you get the picture. We want freedom (to a certain limit to complete 
the given task of course) to walk around, talk to people, visit places, 
in the order we decide to approach things. And please no jumpig on moving 
dissapearing platforms and limit the lever puzzles as they are not 
challenging and sitting for 3 hours in front of my screen saving, dying 
and loading really sux. You should be able to complete the game having 
died very few times (in U8 I must have died over 200 times!!!!!).
There's more I'd like to request, but I'm sure that reading all of those 
messages should direct you on the right path.
	Steph...

There is a LOT that I could say about this, but I will try to keep it
down to the most important points.


1) ULTIMA IS AN RPG.
 
   When I play an Ultima game, I want to play an RPG. Not an action game.
Not a Sierra-type adventure game. An RPG. That is how Ultima started and
how it gained its huge following. However, starting with Ultima 7... Maybe
even Ultima 6, Ultima has been getting away from the RPG and moving towards
an adventure game, or if Ultima 8 is any sign, and adventure-arcade hybrid.
   What do I mean by this? Well, in recent Ultimas, most of what you are
doing is running around from point A to point B trying to find the right
person to give you the needed item or that necessary clue so you can get to
point D. Your characters don't improve very much over time... They gain a
few hit points and attributes, but not much. Combat is almost an afterthought
(I will get into this later). Optional side-quests are rare. Magic is of 
little use except when the plot calls for a certain spell. And in U8, you
don't even have party members!!!!
   In an RPG, I want to see my characters getting better with time. I want
statistics to show it, maybe even skills, like Wasteland. I want combat
to be a major part of the game. I want magic to be a major part of the game.
I don't want to be led around by the hand from point A to point B to point C.

2) REAL-TIME COMBAT SUCKS

   In U7 & U7.5, combat was a farce. You press 'c' and watch all your party 
members run over to the enemy and start hacking away until it dies, then they
run 6 miles south to butcher a poor little deer. You have no control over
your members, and if you give them a missile weapon you risk becoming a 
pincushion. 
   Until computer AI advances to a much higher level, real-time combat as it
is done in U7 and U7.5 is worthless. 
   Tactical, turn based combat, like we had in U4-U6 is the way to go. Or 
perhaps something like in Darklands, where you can stop the action whenever
you want to give orders, and then watch the battle unfold before you. But,if
it is done right, tactical combat can be really fun. If you make most combats
unique (remember the dungeons is U4 & U5?), they can each be a tactical 
problem with different solutions. You can still have a few "wandering monsters"
for atmosphere, but they should be kept to a minimum, and if I KILL SOMETHING,
IT DAMN WELL BETTER STAY DEAD!!! I really hate having to kill the same things
over and over again just because the game engine is too poor to remember.
   Oh, and another point... magic is an important part of combat. In U7 & U7.5,
magic was pretty much useless becomes things were happening too fast. I liked
it in U4 & U5 when combat spells were essential, and you could find mages as
NPC's to help you out.

3) THE PLOT IS PARAMOUNT

   The essence of any good RPG is the plot. The plots of most Ultimas have
been reasonably good, but it is time to pull itself to a higher level and
do what has not been done before... A dynamically branching plot. Give the
player choices and have the plot accomodate them. And not just little choices,
MAJOR choices that affect the very outcome of the game and of the subplots
of the game. You want to talk about non-linearity... well, this is the very
essence of it. 
   Do not force me to do something I would never want to do in order to 
progress the plot. This really only happened in U8, but it was inexcusable.
At least give me a choice.
   I want the populace to notice what is going on around them. If I did 
something for them, I want them to notice, and to thank me. If I did something
to piss them off, I want them to hate me or fear me.
   The characterisation of your companions is VERY important. I want my 
companions to have personality. I want them to make comments, and act according
to there natures. U7 and U7.5 made some progress here, but it could have been
better. There were times in U7.5 where I was nearly yelling at Shamino to
show some sort of reaction to the events in the northern castle. Your 
companions shouldn't follow you around like dogs. Dupre would get really bored
interrogating the entire city of Britain... He should go off and spend the
afternoon at the pub. Shamino might go off to hunt for dinner. Iolo might stay
with you to help out. Or, on a long hike in the wilderness, the characters
could tell stories without any prompting, or Iolo could sing a song. Things
like that give the characters much more personality.

I could go on, but I have things to do, so I will leave it at this.
I think it is great that Origin is asking the people who play the games
their opinions. I trust that you will make U9 a masterpiece. And if so, I
can pretend that U8 never even existed...

Best of luck,

Nick

In article <3a7jtd$g...@ra.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de> kal...@ramz.ing.tu-bs.de (Ove Kalkan) writes:
>Subject: Re: Ultima 9 - What Do >You< Want to See?
>From: kal...@ramz.ing.tu-bs.de (Ove Kalkan)
>Date: 14 Nov 1994 12:07:09 GMT


>3) A special container for keys and perhaps a possibility to label them 
because>if
>   you have 4 golden keys which look all the same it gets very bordom to try
>them
>   every time you want to open a door.

I like the key ring idea. If you find a key you put it on the ring, then to 
unlock a door you can use the key ring with the door and if you have the 
proper key the door opens. I hated trying every key that I had on an unlocked 
door in U7.

One of the things I loved about the Ultimas is the storylines, U8 was missing 
a good one. In U7 I loved the mystrey of the murders, the new Fellowship that 
was trying to get rid of the virtues.

U9 needs a strong storyline. I like the idea of fighting the Guardian right 
off, and beating him, or so we think. The Avatar then returns home to find 
Brittania in ruin, (possibly from the guardian or like mentiond before the 
Avatar straying from the virtues somehow caused this). Brittania has an 
imposter as the Avatar, who could be controlled by the Guardian. This imposter 
is offering, once again, a new hope, but he is not teaching or upholding the 
virtues which will eventually lead to the Guardians conquest of Brittania. The 
real Avatar must convince first his friends and then the world that he is 
their hero, he must do this by upholding the virtues. Then the Avatar could 
beat the Guardian once and for all, not in battle, by preforming some ritual 
and banishing the Guardian someplace where he cannot harm others again.

Keep in mind these story ideas. I have seen many different good ideas. But 
still surprise us with the story. I like to dig through these games to unfold 
the story. Try to include plot twists also. U6 was great to find out that the 
gargoyles were not evil. The interface is very important, but so is the story. 
I love a good story. Oh, and of course good graphics and sound!

Great idea to ask for ideas for the design. Keep it up!

I loved Ultima 4, 5, and 7 part I.  7 part two was too linear, and seemed 
much more like work than fun.  Ultima 8, in my opinion wasn't role 
playing, and I wouldn't play it.  I want something that will involve me, 
but not so much so that I begin to hate the whole quest all together.  
Even though I can't give you specifics, I can say that I would like to 
see more people traveling from city to city, and much much more contact 
between one NPC and another.  Hence when I kill someones only child, that 
person should be very upset (especially a day or two later), and if they 
think, or know it was me, they should act that way.  Although slautering 
an entire town and getting away with it was fun, it wasn't realistic, and 
for an AVATAR, it is unthinkable.  By the way, what ever happened to 
being an AVATAR and behaving like one?  I also dislike the way many games 
are made lately, centered on getting the ultimate weapon to kill the 
ultimate bad guy.  Part 7 was nice because you were not just in conflict 
with one person, or that persons army, but with an entire way of thought 
and living (the fellowship). Those are just some of my thoughts, I hope 
that Ultima changes back to an enjoyable CRPG in #9, otherwise, it will 
be just annother lost series that will not die (like the movie Friday the 
13th).  

P.S.  I sell your products along with several hundred other software 
games, and the thoughts I share with you are also the thoughts of many of 
my customers.  I am sure others feel differently, just not the ones in my 
area.

	I have watched this thread with a large amount of interest because, like
most of you, I have become dissatisfied with the Ultima series of late.  I miss
the "Ultima Trance" which kept me going past all need of sleep, social life, or
food in order to get just "one more" mini-quest done.   I think my favorite Utlima
was either 4 or 5 (can't decide which) mainly because they had such good plot
lines and becuase the game play was so much better than anything else out at the
time.
	By watching this thread and doing a lot of thinking on my own, I have come
up with the following list of what I would like to see in U9.  Some (many?) of
these have been said before.   If so, take them as just another vote towards that
possibility.  


-party
 -multiple characters
 -some short-term, mostly long-term
 -NPC spellcasters/mages!!!


-combat
 -turn based or stop-action (Darklands)
 -intelligent NPC's and monsters (no more worrying about being
  hit by your own guys except maybe rarely if they critically miss)
 -each character should be able to be operated by the user or act independently
  (i.e. computer controlled).  This should be an option on each character's
  stats sheet and changeable at any time.


-no more ARCADE-like sequences!  We can do those on our Nintendo's.
 I know this has been said many times so far.  I can only reiterate
 it and hope you listen.  :)


-characters
 -many different classes
 -skills!
 -let the number-crunchers among us have some fun!  Provide the
  tables and charts we want to make our characters "good" and
  "efficient."
 -Make it into something that might actually be a good paper-and-pencil
  RPG.
 -Characters should be "importable" from earlier Ultima's.  They should be
  able to start at their previous abilities, but should be able to go up 
  from there.  This makes the game somewhat more epic and powerful, but
  is there anything wrong with this?
 

-Stats & virtues
 -I liked the idea of "popularity", but also visible stats for virtues (again,
  an option?).  The avatar should have to WORK to stay the avatar.  If (s)he
  steals, (s)he should have to repent somehow.   Pay the person back later 2 or
  3 times the amount stolen, visit the honesty shrine and sacrifice an equal
  amount, etc.


-Magic
 -LOTS of spells, though all should be useful in at least a few situations.
 -reagents, etc. are great, but a reagent bag is also a necessity for them.
 -different classes should have different spells available to them.
 -the Avatar should have ALL spells available.  He IS the Avatar, after all.
 -gathering reagents can be fun, but also tedious if it has to be done too much
 -look in Rolemaster, AD&D, or any other paper-and-pencil RPG for good
  spell examples.  Computer spells should be DIVERSE.  At the very minimum,
  a "fly" spell should be included.   I HATE it when games don't have one.


-equipment
 -better inventory system
 -no more food like in U7.  Characters should feed themselves automatically if
  food is available.  Only complain if there is none available, or maybe a
  slight mention if food is "low."
 -make a way to add personalized "labels" to all equipment.  I want to be 
  able to label each key as to where it should go to.  


-transportation
 -more modes.  Bring back the magic carpets, balloons, grappling
  hooks, etc.
 -bring back the moongates!!  U6 had a REALLY nice system with the red
  moonstone.


-plot line
 -lots of side-quests for XP and enjoyment.  Not boring ones either.
 -non-linearity is really nice.  Again, if I want totally linear plots like
  U7.5, etc, I'll play my Nintendo.
 -I am not a dog who fetches things for people, nor a message boy for two
  lovers to send notes.  Some people find these kinds of quests enjoyable, so
  keep them in, but it should be pretty obvious that they are not essential
  to the game.  Perhaps this should be an option (see below).
 -I should NOT need a hint book to solve the game.  This makes for VERY
  frustrating experiences and linear plots.   Half the fun of the old ultimas
  was being one of those to write a good walk-through or hint sheet.  If you
  must buy a clue book to do this, it takes the fun away, IMHO.


-land
 -make it HUGE (fill the CD!)
 -don't make it so empty...A huge land is nice, but travelling endlessly
  without anything interesting happening is very boring.
 -random encounters should happen only a moderate amount, not every step
  your character takes.  However, there should also be enough for some
  interest and XP.  The later Ultimas seemed to already have this balance
  figured out fairly well (U6 was best for this, I think).
 -I personally LOVED the way u5 did land in 2 scales -- outdoor, and
  dungeon/city.   Please bring that back.  The way the maps are currently
  laid out, it seems like the land is TINY because the cities take up
  most of it.  Very unrealistic. 


-Dungeons
 -first person perspective, like Ultima Underworld.  Perhaps a series
  of add-ons using the UW engine that could interface directly (character
  transfers, etc) with U9 would be EXCELLENT.
 -being able to see monsters before they attack us would be nice.  U6
  dungeons were good, but needed to be 1st person perspective.


-time
 -scheduling is great, but can also be a pain.  Make an item that can 
  tell you the location of any character in the game (by name) unless 
  purposely "hidden."  (no tracing bad guy locations...:) )
 -adjustable time rate would be an EXCELLENT solution to the problem of
  waiting for NPC's to show up at certain times, etc. 
 -sleep should be a necessity, but not a terrible inconvenience.  All abilities
  should decrease from lack of sleep.


-interaction
 -some people (like me) like typing what they want to say rather than
  clicking on a sentence.   Some don't.  Yet another option.  


-game and interface customization
 -let the user customize how he wants the interface to be.  If they
  like full screen, let them have it.  If they like only half the 
  screen being world-map, a quarter being an automap, and the other
  quarter being character(s) status bars, text screen for
  conversation, etc, let them do it.  I happen to know this is
  NOT that hard to do -- just takes some initial thought and
  preparation in the coding.
 -in Dungeon Hack, you could choose which options you liked in the
  game -- i.e. whether there were undead, secret doors, etc.  This
  was WONDERFUL!  Let the configuration screen in the beginning of
  the game do things like decide whether they want food or not,
  whether they want full or abbreviated conversations, etc.  It would
  be best if these options could also be changed in the middle of
  the game.  
 -configurable hot keys are a necessity (with a default configuration, of
  course).


-take advantage of the CD.  CD's are HUGE and you should fill it up
 with conversation text, soundtracks, more graphics, cinematic
 sequences.  The actual game engine should be quite small in 
 relative size to this data.  However, that does NOT mean skimp on
 the game engine, for in the end, the engine is FAR more important.


-Graphics
 -Nice, but ultimately superfluous to a good RPG.  These should
  take last place compared to playability, plot, interface, etc.
 -also, don't let graphics ruin speed of the game.  Give users
  options of which graphics they should use for their game.  Those
  with P5/90's want the high-end, detailed graphics, and those
  with 386's want something simple and fast.  I know that Origin
  is focusing on high-end graphics, but don't lose the customers
  who don't necessarily have the money for hardware upgrades.
 -if possible, there should be an SVGA mode for 1024x720 graphics.  At
  the very least, a 640x480 mode.
 -a choice of overhead, perspective with view rotation, etc. views should
  be allowed.


-tele-playing.
 -perhaps a modem version should be made that allows multiple players to
  interact in the same environment.  This could also be done (easier) through
  networks.  
-- 

In article <3a7bru$l...@owl.csrv.uidaho.edu>,
Xylothan <hil...@uidaho.edu> wrote:
>ja...@ecf.toronto.edu was talking about:
>: In article <Cz3u...@cs.ruu.nl>, Wishnu Prasetya <wis...@cs.ruu.nl> wrote:
>
>: >  [linear Iolo code]
>
>: [article clipped here]
>
>: ['learning' Iolo binaray tree]
>
>  Good Lord!  With this much from you guys on AI and programming, we 
>could practicly get U9 programed for Origin!  Oh... and instead of a 
>biniary tree, a 2-3Btree might work better

You would lose processing of O(log n) if a 2-3B trees were used.
Simply construct two AVL trees, one for defense strategies and the
other for offense strategies.  Do a simple "health check" to see
which tree should be traversed.

BTW, what I wrote was a simplification of an extensive-form strategy
tree; a representation that is used often in the branch of mathematics
called Game Theory.


.Hin.

No-one seems to have mentioned this so far, so I guess I will.

What do people think of the single-scale map Origin introduced in Ultima 
6? Personally, I think it was a mistake. I _much_ preferred the original 
system, where you had one map for the wilderness, another for towns, and 
another for combat. This meant that objects had roughly the right scale 
relative to each other: a mountain range would dwarf a town, for example. 
In Ultimas 4 and 5, I always had the feeling of exploring a _large_ 
continent, even though in 5 I knew (or had a good idea) where most of the 
locations were already.

I never got that feeling in 6, where a house would look roughly the same 
size as a mountain. It was as if all of a sudden, Britannia had gone from 
being a sizable land mass to a small island. It made it more difficult to 
hold the suspension of disbelief, which is what's essential for a good 
game.

They tweaked the graphics a bit in 7, but to me the underlying problem 
remained. For example Britain takes up most of the middle of the map, 
which just doesn't seem right. In Serpent Isle and Ultima 8, the problem 
was "fixed" by removing the action to totally different locations. Ie, 
"we can't make a big world believable, so we'll just set it in a small 
world instead". But this is probably not going to be an option for Ultima 
9. U9 is going to be set in Britannia, isn't it? Britannia is supposed to 
be _big_, isn't it?

It's not as if using various different scales has to mean lower graphical 
quality, either. Microprose (for one) had a go at it with Darklands, and 
the graphics were fine.

Anyway, that's my contribution.

-- 
=================
Hong Ooi
ho...@magna.com.au
Sydney, Australia

>A game that has a lot of interaction, and the ability to do almost everything 
>in that's possible in real life (that doesn't necessarily mean having 400 
>frames for the avatar -- just that he can interact with almost ANYTHING).  U7 
>was probably my favorite Ultima because of the large world and numerous quests 
>along with great graphics.  Add to that a little less linearity, multiple ways 
>to come to complete the quests, and high interactivity.  This should entail a 
>blockbuster game.  Also remember that the people here are all die hard RPGers. 
>If you only make the game for them, then your sales will not be nearly as high 
>as if you make the game for the ENTIRE market.  The ultimate purpose of making 
>a game is to make money (which is too bad).  

>Josh

The problem with your suggestion, Josh, is that we tried to cross the lines 
between "thrill seekers" and RPG players with U8, and you know what happened 
with U8. While U8 seemed like a good idea at the time, it didn't work. 
Frankly, I fear that if we tried to make another U8, only better, RPG players 
from across the world would come to Austin and kill us. 

The public reaction to U8 is why we're trying to make a more traditional 
Ultima with U9. I hope that a large cross section of game players will play 
and enjoy U9, but we are designing the game with hard core role players in 
mind. 

Thanks for your comments though, and thanks to everyone who has responded to 
my post. Just because I don't respond to everyone doens't mean that I'm not 
reading the responses. I just don't have time to respond to each and everyone 
of y'all.  To anybody else who wants to thrown in their two cents: Please do! 
We here at Origin care about what y'all want. After all, if y'all don't play 
our games, who will?

Thanks again, and take care,
-Brian

Well, I have been an Ultima freak since I first started playing Ultima III
Exodus.....man that was one game.  But my personal fav among all the
Ultima was Ultima 5 with Ultima 4 coming in a close second.

What would I like to see in Ultima 9

For one.....I would love to get rid of the arcadish jumping ard....I mean
practically abt the only things that were a pain were the jumping ard esp
on route to visit the Mountain King via the three necromancers.  I mean
its okay to have such things like jumping and hopping if the restoring
and saving didn't take so darned long......but I'd rather have something
more sensible to be the pain in my ass.

Combat,....thats a toughie....cos I liked the turn based combat...but
would really prefer not to have it now.....so I guess we should stick to
the U7 combat system with better party AI.  Increase the AI of the party
members...and let me interact with them more...but for heavens sake let me
be able to tell my party members not to waste reagents with uncessary
spells when a monster can be easily killed with my sword or arrows or a
crossbow.  Btw I am a sword addict...gimme a sword over any weapon
anytime.  THats why I liked U5.....I could go in solo and trash away at
the monster with my sword....u can do that too with later Ultimas but its
just that wee bit difficult.  Also I found the yakking during combat a
nice touch but the words on screen sorta clutters up the screen and I hate
screen clutter especially during combat.....so if U9 is a not a full
speech product....at least let the combats have full speech, so that there
will be no screen clutter....that would be awesome...noisy combat...the
way it should be.  Also I liked the idea of glowing weapons representing
magic weapons ala U7....it sorta makes me feel better to actually visually
see my magic weapon hittng away at the enemy rather than the same old
boring looking sword in U8.  Get rid of the Avatar's helmet, makes hime
look like a robot.  Bring back the ultra colourful spell book in U7, I
really hate inventory control esp with reagents....so a spell book that
mixes evrthing for u would be really a great asset esp in crisis
situations like in Combat where u need to cast fireball quick.  Also have
a pop-up menu to be able to command ur party members during combat...something
like Wing Commander....this is handy in case a party member gets too much
hits and doesn't know what to do.....at least can tell him/her to retreat.
YEap more control during combat....Wing Commander style......rather than
the old turn based system which was unrealsitic.  For  example when combat
begins....everybody will wait to see how the avatar reacts and what he
tells them to do b4 they proceed to doing anything....and if the avatar
happens to be sorta like taking a coffee break somewhere....the party
memebrs should be able to react after sometime....like the idiot Maniac. 
Of course the prerogative is the party memebers do not have to obey the
avatar but will only listen to the avater according to his actions in
the game so far which is according to the virtues......we can forget abt
all the un-avatarish things he did in Pagan...cos the avatar was
alone....so hush hush would be the order....so he should set up to redeem
himself by going on another of those U4 quests again....just to satisfy
his own ego...and of course all this would be much more exciting because of
the threat of the Guardian is still present and imminent.  This would
reduce the need for too many busy work and would have something for the
Avatar to do besides trying to kick the behind of the pain in the butt
Guardian.  Heheh also it would pay a short tribute to U4 cos many pple
feel that U4 was certainly the highpoint in the series so far.  Also
during combat mebbe we could control the swinging of the sword rather than
clicking on that sickenly small pixel just to hit the monster.....the
worse was U8 when I had to align myself correctly otherwise I would be
slashing at thin air while the monsters get in those damaging hits.  One
final word....bring back the magic axe.....I really miss that....I may not
want to use it...but I sure would like my party members to use it its the
second best weapon already in my view.

Bring back eating and food....I mean I remember the old days of Ultima 4
and 5 where it reached a point where I could actually taste the blend
ration during an excursion and that superb rump steak tasted exquisite
at the tavern after a hard days work.  Also at the tavern I enjoyed
treating everyone in my party to a proper meal as opposed to the food in
the inventory (I think that was U5)...and at other times I would have a main
food inventory where the party members could help themselves to the food
rather than the pathetic whining in Ultima 7 and where I had to hand feed
each of them like a baby.  I mean the worse thing was having to scroll
through the status tryingto find out who was that idiot that was
whining...that was definitely an oversight by Origin.  U7-2 may have hot
keys but the problem was still there....and U8 got rid of eating
altogether...which was a bit unreal really....thus stick to the early
Ultima system of eating...put the food all in an inventory and let the
party members help themselves when they are hungry...and the Avatar's job
is just to see that that inventory is always fully stocked.  Also...please
dun make them hungry so fast......its irritating to keep on buying food
only to see the food disappearing so fast be real....mebbe let them eat
two square meals a day rather than the standard three.

Get rid of the gumps.....it may have been graphically pleasing...but
really messy.....lets have one or two windows where I could do inventory
control all in one go...including the changing of weapons and armour. 
Don't have so many windows open....it gets cluttery after a while.  Also
have the option like in U7 to pool all the money together and all info
should be shown in that single window.  This would not make it unreal as
in real life all u needed to do if u wanted to give a spare weapon to the
party member is to pass it to him.  Using the gump system, u would first
have to open two inventory gump and drag the weapon to the other
inventory...if u wanted him to use the weapon u would have to open the
status window and put the sword in the gump and take the other sword to
put it in the hands of the user.  Wouldn't it be so simple to just have one
window where u could see everyone  and just drag items ard....no fuss???

Retain the jumping ability....but don't gear the puzzles to make use of
it...its really irritating...my heart ached when I saw my Hard disk go
into overdrive just to save or restore a file....although with the disk
cache on the restoring was so much of a pain.  Mind u I have a VLB dx2-66
with 8 megs of RAM and a 420 MEg hardisk and a 32 bit accelerator card. 
Never in my whole life of plaing Ultima from 1-7 have I saved and restored
as much as I have in U8.  So retain the jumping and climbing ability, I
thought the climbing of the mountains in the Underworld in U5 to get the
shard of cowardice was simply awesome...Also let the Avatar be able to
swim in shallow waters.....and roll out them ships.....whoa shooting
cannons at sea dragons in U4 was simply awesome.  Fighting pirates across
ships was also sensational...sure miss it.  Er talking abt tributes...how
abt having a special cameo appearance by the ORCs...or rather those that
are still alive.....wouldn't want bridge trolls now though..cos the trolls
have grown so enormous in size wouldn't want to get into another conflict
with them anymore over a few gold coins...nosireee (wonder how they got
under the bridges in the first place).  

Graphics wise.....U8 beats them all.......sound wise U8 was
superb.....although I didn't get any in my GUS 8(, but I have heard the SB
sounds and its great keep it up.  Also...no real actors in U9 please I am
not ready for someoneto act as the avatar instead of me.  We lost the
ability to be able to name bluehair in Wing COmmander III don't one to
lose that privelege in my fav computer game series of all time.  THe
reason I wanted the Avartar to take off that silly helmet was that I
wanted the Avartar to be able to scratch his head should he be standing
ard ildy for a long period of time not doing anything...I am surprised
that none of those 1200 frames that went to the avatar allowed the avatar
to scratch himself...I mean most of the time he would be standing
motionless like a robot if I don't make it do anything.  Er I used the it
on purpose.  NOw that we are back in Britannia in U9....bring back the
night and day and rain and snow and fog......instead of the perpetual
twilight experienced in Pagan, which the game had adequately explained. 
Music wise....all Ultima musics were great.....I could still remember
stones in U5 on the pc speaker being played in full glory in U6 on my
Soundblaster 1.0 card.....score 10 for all music in Ultima...my fav is
stones closely followed by the haunting tune in the fellowship halls in
U7.  Could we also have text on screen with some other fonts...they were
so difficult to read in the fonts on U8.  Nothing fancy...just plain
readable fonts will do...no need the fancy stuff like in U7.

Ultima 9 has all the potential to be a legendary game in the Ultima
series....or it could sound the death knell to the series...therefore it
is of paramount importance that Origin gets it right...and I have no doubt
that they will......but till U9 comes out all guns firing......I think I have
only one thing to say to Origin...."Thou has lost an eigth", "Thou has
lost an eigth" <-----thats two eigths.


--


=========================oooo Joseph Chew ooo ===========================
email: tyj_...@kurtz.eee.utas.edu.au                  voice: (002)233546
=========================================================================
"My mama always said that life was like a box of cho-co-lates, you'll
never know what you're going to get"   Forrest Gump

mvpi...@engprn.mobil.com (Michael V. Pisarczyk) writes:
>In article <784770...@tungle.demon.co.uk> Ni...@tungle.demon.co.uk (Nick Hadlow) writes:
>>For the love of Virtue keep the automap!
>>I would never, from choice, buy a game that didn't have one.  It takes
>>nothing away from exploration and allows the designers to create complex
>>environments.  Any fool can map a game with a pencil and squared paper.
>>Do game designers want to reward people for pausing the game after each move
>>and marking a square on a pice of paper?
>I still disagree.  I like the maps the way they are.  Please no automap, it 
>gives away to much and it takes away from the "spookieness" of being in a 
>Dungeon.  
>Please, please, please, please, don't coddle us.  The suggestions about things 
>like a reagent bag are great, because they make the interface more 
>transparent (which is the goal, right?)
>A feature like automap takes away a major decision.  Should I run like hell 
>the whole way through the dungeon, or should I take my time and map it out?  
>Let me make the choice as to which is more beneficial.

What I would like is a way to earn maps.  Instead of going to some guy, and
he gives you a whole map.  Maybe he just says something like "well ive only
been down to level 2 in dungon X".  Then he might sell you the map for killing
the 2 dragons on level 2, so he can finish maping it.  Then the map you do
get is only partial and looks really tattered.  And maybe latter you can
find a small piece of that map to use, or add onto the map you do have.  And 
for gods sake make the map in the box more usefull.  The map in U8 was useless.
I used the map from U7 and U6 lots more than U8's map.  I could actually see
a cave on the map and say hmm thats an intersting place to go.  If the map
is not going to add to game I dont even want it in the box.  I dont want to
pay extra money for another map like U8's.

--
Latter..............| And the man traveling at the speed of
  LEN               | light turned around, and said
  lha...@cse.unl.edu| "look here i come"

> The problem with your suggestion, Josh, is that we tried to cross the lines 
> between "thrill seekers" and RPG players with U8, and you know what happened 
> with U8. While U8 seemed like a good idea at the time, it didn't work. 
> Frankly, I fear that if we tried to make another U8, only better, RPG players 
> from across the world would come to Austin and kill us. 
                                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Probably...

> The public reaction to U8 is why we're trying to make a more traditional 
> Ultima with U9. I hope that a large cross section of game players will play 
> and enjoy U9, but we are designing the game with hard core role players in 
> mind. 
Hard core role players of the world unite! :)


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                       PaRt oF tHe /<-RaD c00l 3l33t
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What we need here, is a decent combat system. (and an 80 char wide screen,
I'm using 132.  ahh, that's better)

Anyway, this is my suggestion (and it's worth a lot more than 2 cents)

Have real-time combat.  Have the party members react accordingly.  ie, if
attacked, defend yourself, don't just sit there and take it (unless the A
doesn't want you to, but don't let them get killed just because the A is
a prick)  Have the ability to pause combat, and issue orders to your guys,
if they're not doing anything, give them a list of options (AI or no?), if
they're not doing anything, have them help somebody else, or attack the
nearest guy, or heal themselves/somebody else, or run.  If the fight's going
badly, they might run away, depending on how they're feeling, and how's the
A's been treating them lately.  Generally, make them react like people!

Orders like, 
	go and hit them. (targetted)
	go and hit somebody (anybody, not on our side)
	go and defend a location/person (targetted) (missile or melee)
	shoot them (missile/magic) (targetted)
	heal people who get hurt.
	go there, there, then there, and hit somebody (waypoints)
	and many many more (ever actually seen this song on a recording?, 
		they're always advertising it)

ObRaveAboutGraphicsAndOldUltima's: I'd play U2 and U3, but they got the
	crappiest (almost) graphics.  (and I can't get anywhere in U2-help!)

bye

Beastiality inc.              |"In death, as in life, there are those
mdj...@ccds.cc.monash.edu.au  |who will try to rule, and those who
Mark James                    |will let them" - Me.

In article <3a8e6l$i...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, jjh3...@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu 
says...
>
>Therefore in Ultima 9 some of the character devolpment should deal
>with the Avatar trying to regain the virtues he lost and becoming the
>Avatar again and not in just in name only. Origin could have some
>wicked fun in this. We could find out that all the actions taken on
>Pagan had a equal impact on Brittianna and it's the Avatar and not the
>Guardian who in fact destroys Lord British's relm. Or LB, seeing the
>depths to which the Avatar has fallen, could summon a new warrior to
>take the quest of the Avatar and part of the game would be spent in 
>competion with this computer character.

Yes! Great idea! Who says the player should have a monopoly on Avatarhood 
anyway? Another suggestion: the Guardian has his OWN "avatar", or 
champion, of sorts. The game could become a struggle between these two 
characters. Plus, try to flesh out the opposing side's philosophy a 
little. I don't know about other people, but I get a bit jaded playing 
game after game where it's taken for granted that you're playing a Good 
Guy and the other side is the Bad Guy. Even if the other side is supposed 
to get trashed, they should be able to come up with some sort of 
rationalisation for their actions. That was one of the nice touches in 
Ultima 7; how the people who joined the Fellowship genuinely thought they 
were doing the right thing. Ditto with Ultima 6 and the gargoyles vs 
humans.

>Of course my personal favorite is having a reformed Blackthorn,
>maybe on the road to Avatarism himself, come in at the last min.
>to save the day. He....He...He....

Hmmm... I wonder who the Guardian's avatar could be? ;-)


-- 
=================
Hong Ooi
ho...@magna.com.au
Sydney, Australia

TACTICAL COMBAT, with a decent quick combat feature for those who get 
tired of it.  No more of this real-time stuff please... it's just too 
dificult to perform complex tasks (like switching weapons, casting 
spells, etc. when the bad guys are pummeling you.

Combat should be more difficult than in U7 (trivial), but less than U8 
(impossible if more than one monster was attacking at a time)

It would be nice if the monsters got tougher as you increased in skill, 
either by different types of monster or by a grading or ranking system.  


Just my $0.02,

Chris

Hong Ooi (ho...@magna.com.au) wrote:

> What do people think of the single-scale map Origin introduced in Ultima 
> 6? Personally, I think it was a mistake. I _much_ preferred the original 

Agreed. Ultima V had the feeling of huge wild wilderness, in Ultima VI
everything is just next door. 

--
     ///------------------------------------------------------------\\\
    ///  Janne Siren  /  "Couldn't we just help each other           \\\
\\\///  j...@krk.fi   /   Isn't there enough to share" - Mariah Carey  \\\///
 \XX/------------------------------------------------------------------\XX/

> Have real-time combat.  Have the party members react accordingly.  ie, if
> attacked, defend yourself, don't just sit there and take it (unless the A
> doesn't want you to, but don't let them get killed just because the A is
> a prick)  Have the ability to pause combat, and issue orders to your guys,
> if they're not doing anything, give them a list of options (AI or no?), if
> they're not doing anything, have them help somebody else, or attack the
> nearest guy, or heal themselves/somebody else, or run.  If the fight's going
> badly, they might run away, depending on how they're feeling, and how's the
> A's been treating them lately.  Generally, make them react like people!
> 
> Orders like, 
> 	go and hit them. (targetted)
> 	go and hit somebody (anybody, not on our side)
> 	go and defend a location/person (targetted) (missile or melee)
> 	shoot them (missile/magic) (targetted)
> 	heal people who get hurt.
> 	go there, there, then there, and hit somebody (waypoints)
> 	and many many more (ever actually seen this song on a recording?, 
> 		they're always advertising it)
 
YES yes YES !! I agree. But it must be possibl;e that DURING the battle
you can pause everything and give new orders
 
Kimono
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

WHat I want in U9:

Turn based combat.  I hate realtime combat, I like to think about what I'm
doing.  Heck, how about having turn based/real time combat be an option?
It shouldn't be that hard to program routines for both, and with a CD you
ought to have enough space to program it.  (Say, keep the combat routines on
hard disk, have the player specify at the start which s/he prefers,
load the appropriate programs from the CD...Maybe make it so you can
change it during the game [not during the battle, that's just asking for
trouble...])

A quest to restore the Avatar's virtues.  Maybe later on, you can
get another quest, like uniting Britannia.

Did I mention virtues?  The Av is supposed to be the ultimate good guy.



Since some of the NPCs from the other games are dead now, how about some new
ones to join you?

In <bmartin.3...@origin.ea.com> bma...@origin.ea.com (Brian Martin) writes:



>The problem with your suggestion, Josh, is that we tried to cross the lines 
>between "thrill seekers" and RPG players with U8, and you know what happened 
>with U8. While U8 seemed like a good idea at the time, it didn't work. 
>Frankly, I fear that if we tried to make another U8, only better, RPG players 
>from across the world would come to Austin and kill us. 

>The public reaction to U8 is why we're trying to make a more traditional 
>Ultima with U9. I hope that a large cross section of game players will play 
>and enjoy U9, but we are designing the game with hard core role players in 
>mind. 

>Thanks for your comments though, and thanks to everyone who has responded to 
>my post. Just because I don't respond to everyone doens't mean that I'm not 
>reading the responses. I just don't have time to respond to each and everyone 
>of y'all.  To anybody else who wants to thrown in their two cents: Please do! 
>We here at Origin care about what y'all want. After all, if y'all don't play 
>our games, who will?

>Thanks again, and take care,
>-Brian

For me, I really like the realtime idea in U8. Everything doing in real 
time including combat. i.e. I have to find some hidings when I try to 
open my bag and cast magic, though, in my opinion, it is not good 
implemented in U8. And I don;t prefer the Turn-based combat suggested by 
others in this newsgroup., because in practically you are not controlling 
your companions, you are just, to the greatest extent, ordering or maybe 
suggesting them to do something. they might ignore you according to their 
feeling and characteristics. How about making the 'talk' command 
available to the companions while combat. For example, if Iolo was 
getting hurt, you can shout at him, 'Iolo, go back!'.

I hate, really hate, the forever jump and die in U8. I hate the fire 
arrows hit me again when I am still still getting up and eventually get 
my full health. Though it may be realistic, don't make it in U9 again please.

Network Playing is a good idea, though it need someway to implement it 
nicely in a RPG like Ultima.

It is only my opinon in my future view of my beloved ultima.

Another quick note on the next Ultima:

I just added to the thread on Ultima music, and I would like to cast a
vote for the continual music playing that was so prevalent in the earlier
Ultimas.  I know it's much more of a challenge coming up with continuous
music that doesn't get annoying, but you guys used to do such a good job
at that.  I remember my disappointment after speding hours (nay, days!)
fiddling with Voodoo in U7 so I could get music, and then having music
play only occasionally.

Some of the Ultima themes of the past are just simply classic.  It would
be great if you could duplicate that kind of excellence in future products.

Thanks for listening,

Jim

-- 
           Jim Beavens            |"Early to rise and early to bed 
     Oregon State University      | makes a man wise but socially dead."
Electrical & Computer Engineering | 
      bea...@ECE.ORST.EDU        |                    -- Animaniacs

Hi Origin,

first of all I thank you for going on the net and listening to the
various propositions made by so much people.  It's nice to see a
company which actually tries to get in touch with its customers.

I'm a long time ultima fan.  It started back in school... My personal
favourite is Ultima IV (followed by U5 :).  But the best user
interface for an Ultima has Serpent Isle/Silver Seed.  And the best
proportions in respect to quests vs. subquests has Ultima 7/The Black
Gate.  I still maintain my idea that an Ultima V redone with the user
interface of Silver Seed would be a bestseller.  But now to U9...


1. Bring back the party!

Big quests (they are big, aren't they?) need to be solved by a group
of people.  The Avatar is not a superhuman ;).  Maybe temporary
splitting the party could be interesting; where one part is directed
separately from the other (but only if this isn't a obstacle against a
non-linear plot).

2. Different map scales!

This is not new, but its effective.  The world has to be huge!  This
feeling to wander around the world (lost in wilderness) was best
achieved with the different map scale system used in U4/U5. 

3. Combat system.

Both turn-based and real time combat have their advantages and
disadvantages.  A hybrid as proposed by many others would be great.
Where you can stop the action and direct your people; eg. casting
spells, take evasive action, etc.

4. Dungeons.

The 1st person point of view for dungeons was better than the system
used in U6-U8.  Maybe several simple Ultima Underworlds integrated?
(I don't mind swapping CD-ROMs; I am accustomed to it :)

5. Story over graphics.

If graphics are standing in the way against plot, sacrifice the
graphics.  The priority should be: story, complexity, graphics.  Nice
graphics are nice looking, nothing more.  If you have seen it once,
it's enough.  But if you can play a story several times, because there
are twists still not discovered yet, you have definitely more.

6. Exploring.

Two thirds of the Magic System and the Bestiary (and some other things
as well) shouldn't be documented.  Let us discover spells and their
use.  Let us find secret libraries where forgotten people have listed
vital information about such things!

7. The cloth map.

There has to be a cloth map.  This is a standing tradition with all
Ultimas.  :) You don't plan to drop the cloth map, do you?



This are my thoughts (but not all) on this subject.  I hope they are
constructive.  I don't think that Ultima 8 is the worst game ever
made.  In fact I enjoyed playing U8.  But I enjoyed playing U4 more.
(I played it recently again: now on my 486. I played it also on my C64
and on my Amiga 1000.)

Thank you, -Arnulf

In article <3av3la$g...@engr.orst.edu>,
james beavens <bea...@holmes.ece.orst.edu> wrote:
>
>Some of the Ultima themes of the past are just simply classic.  It would
>be great if you could duplicate that kind of excellence in future products.

I think there's a mention of an Ultima soundtrack CD in U7's credits.  Is
it an actual product and has anybody got one?  I'm very interested if they
really have those music on CD.

sl...@cornell.edu
Witty .sig under construction.

S. Lee (sl...@crux4.cit.cornell.edu) wrote:

: I think there's a mention of an Ultima soundtrack CD in U7's credits.  Is
: it an actual product and has anybody got one?  I'm very interested if they
: really have those music on CD.

At the end of the credits for Serpent Isle (U7.5) it says:

Soundtrack CD NOT availiable from Origin, so don't call and ask!!!

I think this was a joke (a' la "No animals were harmed in the course of 
producing Ultima VII") that got a bit out of hand...

--r.

In article <D01t...@iglou.com>, cinn...@iglou.iglou.com (Roger N. Dominick) writes:
> S. Lee (sl...@crux4.cit.cornell.edu) wrote:
> : I think there's a mention of an Ultima soundtrack CD in U7's credits.  Is
> : it an actual product and has anybody got one?  I'm very interested if they
> : really have those music on CD.
> At the end of the credits for Serpent Isle (U7.5) it says:
> Soundtrack CD NOT availiable from Origin, so don't call and ask!!!
> I think this was a joke (a' la "No animals were harmed in the course of 
> producing Ultima VII") that got a bit out of hand...

     It was no joke, as I own both vol. 1 & 2 of the Origin Audio CDs.  I
think I got the very last ones.  Thing was, they were meant to be in-house
promo items only and never really meant for sale.
     Note that in the press release for Wing Commander III Premiere
Edition that it includes vol. *3* of the Origin Audio CD soundtrack
series.  No word as of yet as to whether this CD (which has U8 music) will
be ever available separately.
--
Seinentai Dragon
  -==(UDIC)==-
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