🚀 go-pugleaf

On 19 Aug 2002 08:58:22 -0700, frees...@yahoo.com (freestone wilson) wrote:

>what rpgs are the deepest, most complicated?

Fallout 1 & 2 are pretty deep. The Ultima series is deep.

"freestone wilson" <frees...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:bbe87731.0208190758.1e8e268d@posting.google.com...
> hi all.
>
> what is the deepest, rpg?
> ---  or even the most complicated or involved?!
>
>  Anthony E. Strozyk , in his remenising about old rpgs, wrote about
> "the good old days".   the old rpgs when "games were Games", a few
> days ago.!
>
> not clickfests.
> not linar paths.
> not dumbed down everythings....
>
> but what ARE they?   what games were like this, or
> maybe...[hope...hope...]
> or maybe, what games are like this today?

I played most CRPGs back in the "old days", and I think there' some
nostalgia clouding memory going on. Bard's Tale, Wizardry, the early
Ultimas, etc. were all very simple games with limited plots and
storytelling. Ultima 3 was somewhat more interesting but even the middle
Ultimas aren't nearly as deep as Fallout (which is relatively recent, all
things considered) or Planescape: Torment. I found Garriott's moralizing
sanctimonious even while I enjoyed the games. There was no grey in the
Ultimas until Black Gate. The only 1980s CRPG that had much depth that I can
remember is Wasteland.

Gameplay wise, Wizardry made good use of classes and level development but
the play was still limited. That is also true of the first Might & Magic
games. They were "involved" only in the sense that they lacked modern
conveniences like automaps.

On 19 Aug 2002 08:58:22 -0700, frees...@yahoo.com (freestone wilson) wrote:

>hi all.
>
>what is the deepest, rpg?
>---  or even the most complicated or involved?!


nethack :)
_______________
Anders
ak at workmail.com

"The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources." 
Albert Einstein

It's elementary, my dear frees...@yahoo.com (freestone wilson):

> I am beginning ARCANUM.  tis it looks like a near-relative, of these
> old games, maybe close.
> 
> so people....what rpgs are the deepest, most complicated?
> perhaps..."WERE" would be a better adjective!!

Deepest story I'd say is Planescape: Torment.

Fallout 1 and 2 are pretty deep in terms of player choice.

Wizardry 8 is deep in terms of combat options and character development. 

Arcanum is pretty "deep" but it has a weak combat system.

-- 

Knight37

"We cut down on my percentage, it's liable to interfere with my aim."
-- Blonde, from "The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly"

"Damocles" <phae...@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:ajr8hf$bf...@mercury.cc.uottawa.ca: 

>> but what ARE they?   what games were like this, or
>> maybe...[hope...hope...]
>> or maybe, what games are like this today?
> 
> I played most CRPGs back in the "old days", and I think there' some
> nostalgia clouding memory going on. Bard's Tale, Wizardry, the early
> Ultimas, etc. were all very simple games with limited plots and
> storytelling. Ultima 3 was somewhat more interesting but even the
> middle Ultimas aren't nearly as deep as Fallout (which is relatively
> recent, all things considered) or Planescape: Torment. I found
> Garriott's moralizing sanctimonious even while I enjoyed the games.

Well, indeed...  Sanctimonious, naive and quite childishly idealistic...  
Yet at the same time, Ultima IV had some stuff that was really beautiful, 
and some things that I haven't seen in other games.  One thing which I 
really really like, which RPG's have generally taken the exact opposite turn 
on since then, is this sense of "OK, here's a world...  Some of it has 
purpose in what you have to do, some of it doesn't...  Explore me!  You'll 
find some interesting stuff!  You'll get to know me..."  And Ultima IV had 
*ideas*.  Not ideas in the "I'm writing a novel, and here are the story 
developments that will surprise you" sense...  A computer game is not a 
movie or a novel, and those early Ultimas realized this!  I found it really 
cool (albeit weird!) that a guy would base an entire game on that "three 
makes eight" thing...  Eight virtues from three principles.  Eight 
corresponding stones from three primary colours, eight dungeons (well 
almost:) )  the three-part key, bell-book-candle, eight levels of the abyss, 
eight classes with three primary attributes, eight moongates/towns ruled by 
three keeps, eight letters in the "axiom", eight starting locations based on 
a series of eight questions in the three principles...  and I'm sure I'm 
missing other things...  It's childish, and it's kind of facetious, but it 
also managed to be really cool, in my opinion.

> There was no grey in the Ultimas until Black Gate. The only 1980s CRPG
> that had much depth that I can remember is Wasteland.

Replying to frees...@yahoo.com (freestone wilson) :

>hi all.
>
>what is the deepest, rpg?
>---  or even the most complicated or involved?!

I, personally, liked some of SSI's earlier games, e.g. Curse of the
Azure Bonds, but I'd lie if I said they were terribly complex or deep.

I know people are fed up with me harping on about it, but the only
truly great crpg was Planescape: Torment. It's from '98 or '99. 
Nothing else comes even close IMO, although I know many would say that
Fallout I & II, and perhaps even Baldurs Gate I & II, are on par.

> Anthony E. Strozyk , in his remenising about old rpgs, wrote about
>"the good old days".   the old rpgs when "games were Games", a few
>days ago.!

Nostalgia talking. 
Sword of Fargoal, Hack, and Temple of Apshai were all great fun, but
they weren't deep.

>but what ARE they?   what games were like this, or
>maybe...[hope...hope...]
>or maybe, what games are like this today?

Few games ever were. The old ones sometimes had charm, but usually had
the depth of a birdbath and the complexity of a bar of soap.

>I am beginning ARCANUM.  tis it looks like a near-relative, of these
>old games, maybe close.

Well, to each his own, I guess.

Actually, and this group is going to hate me now, but if you want
emotional power and depth, you may want to look outside the RPG genre.
The RPG's are very fixed-form, one might even say stuck in a rut, and
at least I personally get a more rewarding role playing experience
from some first person shooters, such as Deus Ex, Thief, and Half
Life.

There are also all those weird japanese rpg's. I'm told they're very
deep and complex, but I usually just find them silly.

>freestone

On Mon, 19 Aug 2002 19:35:16 GMT, wlparker-...@sympatico.ca
(William Parker) wrote:

>[...] I found it really 
>cool (albeit weird!) that a guy would base an entire game on that "three 
>makes eight" thing... 

You have a really good point there, and it's not childish at all.
Maybe it could be more skilfully disguised but what Garriott's
masterpieces did show was that he wanted to give his games some
architecture like a building's, or structural principle like a
symphony's, that's woefully missing from most other games.

Game designers: Find some fundamental structure to build your game
world around, don't just assemble random stereotypes!
-- 
http://www.kynosarges.de

In article <bbe87731.02081...@posting.google.com>, 
frees...@yahoo.com says...

>hi all.

>what is the deepest, rpg?
>---  or even the most complicated or involved?!

> Anthony E. Strozyk , in his remenising about old rpgs, wrote about
>"the good old days".   the old rpgs when "games were Games", a few
>days ago.!

>not clickfests.
>not linar paths.
>not dumbed down everythings....

>but what ARE they?   what games were like this, or
>maybe...[hope...hope...]
>or maybe, what games are like this today?

>I am beginning ARCANUM.  tis it looks like a near-relative, of these
>old games, maybe close.

>so people....what rpgs are the deepest, most complicated?
>perhaps..."WERE" would be a better adjective!!

Of the ones I've played, I have to nominate Wizardry 7, Crusaders of the Dark 
Savant. It had depth, and complexitity due to the player being able to choose 
which side, if any, to support.

On the other, I have not yet played most of the other recent games mentioned in 
this thread.

-- 
Ken Rice -=:=- kennrice (AT) erols (DOT) com
http://users.erols.com/kennrice
    Civil War Round Table of DC & Concentration Camp made of LEGO bricks
http://members.tripod.com/~kennrice
    Maps of Ultima 7 Parts 1 & 2, Prophecy of the Shadow, Savage Empire,
    Crusaders of Dark Savant & Others.

> I am beginning ARCANUM.  tis it looks like a near-relative, of these
> old games, maybe close.

Arcanum has lots of character developement options...but the difference
between them is mostly combat related and that part of the game isn't all
that fun.
I didn't really like the game. the game mechanics were too obvious and
intrusive, especially in the conversations. ("perhaps I could PERSUADE you
otherwise?" "I believe I have the INTELLIGENCE to understand this"
ARRRRRGGHHH!) not to mention the huge balance problems...it's one of the few
games where you can become literally invincible.

> so people....what rpgs are the deepest, most complicated?
> perhaps..."WERE" would be a better adjective!!

I have to agree with the others, it's mostly nostalgia. I'd say dungeon
master 1 is a game to try though. It's the best dungeon crawl I have ever
seen...also I don't remember any recent games who really did puzzles right.
It might be a refreshing experience. it also has excellent graphics for its
time(or at least the amiga version does. WinUAE is a great emulator.) not
like the older ultimas who are unplayable for some people(me at the very
least :)

Aah.. DM was GREAT! And the add-on too!

Magic system ruled.

That rod you should assemble... so cool!

And the dragons were really scary (but made a nice dinner)

"Joeaverage" <joeave...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:NSd89.11683$sR2.217480@news4.ulv.nextra.no...
> > I am beginning ARCANUM.  tis it looks like a near-relative, of these
> > old games, maybe close.
>
> Arcanum has lots of character developement options...but the difference
> between them is mostly combat related and that part of the game isn't all
> that fun.
> I didn't really like the game. the game mechanics were too obvious and
> intrusive, especially in the conversations. ("perhaps I could PERSUADE you
> otherwise?" "I believe I have the INTELLIGENCE to understand this"
> ARRRRRGGHHH!) not to mention the huge balance problems...it's one of the
few
> games where you can become literally invincible.
>
> > so people....what rpgs are the deepest, most complicated?
> > perhaps..."WERE" would be a better adjective!!
>
> I have to agree with the others, it's mostly nostalgia. I'd say dungeon
> master 1 is a game to try though. It's the best dungeon crawl I have ever
> seen...also I don't remember any recent games who really did puzzles
right.
> It might be a refreshing experience. it also has excellent graphics for
its
> time(or at least the amiga version does. WinUAE is a great emulator.) not
> like the older ultimas who are unplayable for some people(me at the very
> least :)
>
>

Wizardry 8 or Fallout 2 would be my choices for the best rpg's.

"Martin Eriksson" <nit...@giron.wox.org> wrote in message
news:aqrrja.218.ln@x-files.giron.wox.org...
> Aah.. DM was GREAT! And the add-on too!
>
> Magic system ruled.
>
> That rod you should assemble... so cool!
>
> And the dragons were really scary (but made a nice dinner)
>
> "Joeaverage" <joeave...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:NSd89.11683$sR2.217480@news4.ulv.nextra.no...
> > > I am beginning ARCANUM.  tis it looks like a near-relative, of these
> > > old games, maybe close.
> >
> > Arcanum has lots of character developement options...but the difference
> > between them is mostly combat related and that part of the game isn't
all
> > that fun.
> > I didn't really like the game. the game mechanics were too obvious and
> > intrusive, especially in the conversations. ("perhaps I could PERSUADE
you
> > otherwise?" "I believe I have the INTELLIGENCE to understand this"
> > ARRRRRGGHHH!) not to mention the huge balance problems...it's one of the
> few
> > games where you can become literally invincible.
> >
> > > so people....what rpgs are the deepest, most complicated?
> > > perhaps..."WERE" would be a better adjective!!
> >
> > I have to agree with the others, it's mostly nostalgia. I'd say dungeon
> > master 1 is a game to try though. It's the best dungeon crawl I have
ever
> > seen...also I don't remember any recent games who really did puzzles
> right.
> > It might be a refreshing experience. it also has excellent graphics for
> its
> > time(or at least the amiga version does. WinUAE is a great emulator.)
not
> > like the older ultimas who are unplayable for some people(me at the very
> > least :)
> >
> >
>
>

"freestone wilson" <frees...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:bbe87731.0208190758.1e8e268d@posting.google.com...
> so people....what rpgs are the deepest, most complicated?
> perhaps..."WERE" would be a better adjective!!
>

If "Deep" means that the game would induce thinking and contemplating its
world, then so far there's only 3 for me: Planescape:Torment, FallOut 2, and
Deus Ex.

Anarchronox also impressed me by make me thinking about the death scene of
Fatima.  But then it's more emotionally related.  It's more like after
watching a movie.

The most complicated CRPGs??? Probably Arcanum.  To me, "complicated" is not
a good word.  Wiz 8 has tons of options but I never feel its being
"complicated" because its user interface is very well-done.  When I feel a
game is "complicated", usually its user interface is clunky & clumsy, and
lots of unwieldy options.

> freestone

On Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:00:55 +0800, "Brian H." <bh1234...@nospam.please.ismart.net> wrote:

>Anarchronox also impressed me by make me thinking about the death scene of
>Fatima. 

Thanks for the spoiler.

Ultima 7 gets my vote--really interesting plot lines (all of them). I
agree with the others--I liked a lot of "good old days" games (early
Ultimas, Temple of Apshai, Legacy of the Ancients, etc. etc.) but they
weren't so deep.

frees...@yahoo.com (freestone wilson) wrote in message news:<bbe87731.02081...@posting.google.com>...
> hi all.
> 
> what is the deepest, rpg?
> ---  or even the most complicated or involved?!
> 
>  Anthony E. Strozyk , in his remenising about old rpgs, wrote about
> "the good old days".   the old rpgs when "games were Games", a few
> days ago.!
> 
> not clickfests.
> not linar paths.
> not dumbed down everythings....
> 
> but what ARE they?   what games were like this, or
> maybe...[hope...hope...]
> or maybe, what games are like this today?
> 
> I am beginning ARCANUM.  tis it looks like a near-relative, of these
> old games, maybe close.
> 
> so people....what rpgs are the deepest, most complicated?
> perhaps..."WERE" would be a better adjective!!
> 
> freestone

"rrevved" <ed_bain@address.here> wrote in message
news:r3v3mu8dqkrd8i9li5p7eenb0g0pgdal5p@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:00:55 +0800, "Brian H."
<bh1234...@nospam.please.ismart.net> wrote:
>
> >Anarchronox also impressed me by make me thinking about the death scene
of
> >Fatima.
>
> Thanks for the spoiler.
>
>

Hm.... sorry.... ^_^

Christoph Nahr wrote:

> On Mon, 19 Aug 2002 19:35:16 GMT, wlparker-...@sympatico.ca
> (William Parker) wrote:
> 
>>[...] I found it really 
>>cool (albeit weird!) that a guy would base an entire game on that "three 
>>makes eight" thing... 
> 
> You have a really good point there, and it's not childish at all.
> Maybe it could be more skilfully disguised but what Garriott's
> masterpieces did show was that he wanted to give his games some
> architecture like a building's, or structural principle like a
> symphony's, that's woefully missing from most other games.
> 
> Game designers: Find some fundamental structure to build your game
> world around, don't just assemble random stereotypes!


You might have a point, but a fundamental structure based on the
re-appearance of some magical number seems rather simplistic to
me, childish even. And the designers whoo attempt that should
be aware that the world tends to feel artificial with too much
structuring.

Werner

> 

freestone wilson wrote:

> hi all.
> 
> what is the deepest, rpg?


Depends upon the definition of "deep":

deep = asking meaningful questions : Planescape: Torment

deep = deeper immersion : Thief (although not technically an rpg,
				it felt like one)

deep = complex story : Fallout 2, Deus Ex

deep = complicated game mechanics (this is a bad thing): Wizardry 8


Werner

Replying to Ian Montgomerie <i...@ianmontgomerie.com> :


>>Actually, and this group is going to hate me now, but if you want
>>emotional power and depth, you may want to look outside the RPG genre.
>>The RPG's are very fixed-form, one might even say stuck in a rut, and
>>at least I personally get a more rewarding role playing experience
>>from some first person shooters, such as Deus Ex, Thief, and Half
>>Life.
>
>If you want a good story without the CRPG aspects of combat and
>character development, check out The Longest Journey (a *gasp*
>adventure game - with a reputation among adventure game fans similar
>to Torment's rep on this newsgroup).

True, TLJ is an outstanding game. Absolutely oozes with atmosphere.

Just like Torment it's a bit of a sleeper hit, too.

I'm not very knowledgeable about adventures, as I tend to run,
screaming, in the other direction when confronted with one, because I
HATE puzzles, but TLJ and Rise of the Dragon would probably go on my
top-ten-of-all-time list. If I ever made such a list.

>I haven't finished it yet -
>annoyingly, it seems to work on Directx7 but not Directx8, so I have
>to hook an old PC up to my monitor to play it.  I can vouch that it
>has at least as much dialog as Torment, though it is somewhat more
>linear, and IMO the story is good but a bit below Torment level.

I agree with this. On the other hand it has prettier graphics than
Torment. Also, it's a *happy* game; the word that comes for me when
thinking of TLJ is 'perky', which isn't a word I'd associate with
Torment.

Werner Arend wrote:

> freestone wilson wrote:
>
> > hi all.
> >
> > what is the deepest, rpg?
>
> Depends upon the definition of "deep":
>
> deep = asking meaningful questions : Planescape: Torment

PULEASE!  We're talking crpg not ADVENTURE, crpg-lite games! :p
I liked PST for what it was.  But it was weak as a crpg game for me!
IMO!

> deep = deeper immersion : Thief (although not technically an rpg,
>                                 it felt like one)

uhm, thats a first person SNEAKER, not really a crpg.  though anythings
anything these days.  so I guess you;re right!

> deep = complex story : Fallout 2, Deus Ex

Deus Ex cheesey, Fallout 2 good, I'd add System Shock 2 if you put Deus
Ex in (more for deep ambiance, than story).

> deep = complicated game mechanics (this is a bad thing): Wizardry 8

BAD THING?!? why?!?! ah I remember you. I had a few remarks about Wiz 8
and classic crpgs and whatnut in December with you... iirc... I guess
for you its bad.  Not bad for me! I think based on what I've read of
freestone wilson's past posts hes definteily an OLD SCHOOL crpg type...
anyway.

> Werner

etc

"mtkafka" <mcu...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:3D622D91.E9EAB7A2@prodigy.net...
> Werner Arend wrote:
>
> > freestone wilson wrote:
> >
> > > hi all.
> > >
> > > what is the deepest, rpg?
> >
> > Depends upon the definition of "deep":
> >
> > deep = asking meaningful questions : Planescape: Torment
>
> PULEASE!  We're talking crpg not ADVENTURE, crpg-lite games! :p
> I liked PST for what it was.  But it was weak as a crpg game for me!
> IMO!


And here it is again. Why is it that people assume crpg's should be about
killing hordes of monsters? I blame the game makers of the 80's. They made
all these rpg's with only one thing to do, and it stuck. Now the whole genre
is in a rut, despite a few exceptions (fallout, pst, *maybe bg2, deus ex)

PST is not an adventure game. Not even close. And I should know since I have
played adventure games since about 1985. Just trust me on this.  Its not
even adventure-lite. Its a HARDCORE rpg, among the very few good rpg's ever
made on computer. Its about as good as an rpg on a computer can really be,
since freedom of will is so difficult to simulate in a computer game.

I personally don't even consider the monty haul games as rpg's. I don't know
what the fuck they are, but rpg's they are not. Rpg's are not about
genocidal maniacs killing everything in the world, every real life GM that
made them so was very quickly made aware of the players displeasure (at
least in our game circles)


Tomi

mtkafka wrote:

> Werner Arend wrote:
>>freestone wilson wrote:
>>>what is the deepest, rpg?
>>>
>>Depends upon the definition of "deep":
>>
>>deep = asking meaningful questions : Planescape: Torment
> 
> PULEASE!  We're talking crpg not ADVENTURE, crpg-lite games! :p
> I liked PST for what it was.  But it was weak as a crpg game for me!
> IMO!

[snipped]

>>deep = complicated game mechanics (this is a bad thing): Wizardry 8
>>
> 
> BAD THING?!? why?!?! ah I remember you. I had a few remarks about Wiz 8
> and classic crpgs and whatnut in December with you... iirc... I guess
> for you its bad.  Not bad for me! I think based on what I've read of
> freestone wilson's past posts hes definteily an OLD SCHOOL crpg type...
> anyway.


And I'll answer you as I did in that thread: I don't want a fantasy
combat simulator, I want a role-playing game, and I tend to take
the term seriously.

Complicated game mechanics are a bad thing because they kill immersion.
I don't want to play a numbers-maximizing game, as my character isn't a
robot (or rather he is, kindof, but shouldn't feel like one).

Whatever game you want to play, Diablo, Wiz 8 or whatever, might be
very good and big fun...

...but role-playing it is not - not if you take the term seriously.


Werner

On Tue, 20 Aug 2002 16:50:51 +0800, "Brian H."
<bh1234...@nospam.please.ismart.net> wrote:

>
>"rrevved" <ed_bain@address.here> wrote in message
>news:r3v3mu8dqkrd8i9li5p7eenb0g0pgdal5p@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:00:55 +0800, "Brian H."
><bh1234...@nospam.please.ismart.net> wrote:
>>
>> >Anarchronox also impressed me by make me thinking about the death scene
>of
>> >Fatima.
>>
>> Thanks for the spoiler.
>>
>>
>
>Hm.... sorry.... ^_^
>
Why ?  She's a ghost at the begining of the game.              :)

-- 

Bunnies aren't just cute like everybody supposes !
They got them hoppy legs and twitchy little noses !
And what's with all the carrots ?  
What do they need such good eyesight for anyway ?
Bunnies !  Bunnies !  It must be BUNNIES !

Tomi heteaho wrote:
> I personally don't even consider the monty haul games as rpg's. I don't know
> what the fuck they are, but rpg's they are not. Rpg's are not about
> genocidal maniacs killing everything in the world, every real life GM that
> made them so was very quickly made aware of the players displeasure (at
> least in our game circles)

I've mostly seen the opposite. The more players we get, the more hack'n'slash 
the game evolves into.

Having said that, I think RPGs are whatever you want them to be. There is no 
right or wrong way to roleplay. Monty Haul games are just as valid as deep, 
intense stories. As long as you're playing a role (controlling a persona 
within a game), you're roleplaying. The main thing is to have fun.

imp

>:)

Replying to imp <imp...@partmaps.ntlworld.com> :

>> what the fuck they are, but rpg's they are not. Rpg's are not about
>> genocidal maniacs killing everything in the world, every real life GM that
>> made them so was very quickly made aware of the players displeasure (at
>> least in our game circles)
>
>I've mostly seen the opposite. The more players we get, the more hack'n'slash 
>the game evolves into.

Yeah. Munchkins, unite!

Neverwinter Nights is a faithful reenactment of any PnP AD&D session
I've ever played. Not that that is how it must be, or should be, but
it's what the players want. It seems one only need one Munchkin player
who's memorized the rule book for any session to degrade into Diablo.

Except when I'm DM'ing of course, but then the AD&D rules then have
very very little to do with what actually happens in-game.

>Having said that, I think RPGs are whatever you want them to be. There is no 
>right or wrong way to roleplay. Monty Haul games are just as valid as deep, 
>intense stories. As long as you're playing a role (controlling a persona 
>within a game), you're roleplaying. The main thing is to have fun.

According to that definition both Tekken3 and Tiger Woods 99 PGA Tour
Golf  are rpg's... If you asked me, I'd say it's not roleplaying until
you adjust your actions to the persona you're playing.

>imp

> > >Anarchronox also impressed me by make me thinking about the death scene
> > >of Fatima.
> >
> > Thanks for the spoiler.
> 
> Hm.... sorry.... ^_^

Well, it's not really much of a spoiler because we know Fatima is dead
right from the beginning of the game.

Now, here's a real spoiler:  Near the end of the game, just when  ****
NOTICE:  The remaining text has been deleted by the Spoiler Police. 
The poster has been appropriately punished.  Move along.  ****

It's elementary, my dear rrevved <ed_bain@address.here>:

> On Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:00:55 +0800, "Brian H."
> <bh1234...@nospam.please.ismart.net> wrote: 
> 
>>Anarchronox also impressed me by make me thinking about the death
>>scene of Fatima. 
> 
> Thanks for the spoiler.

That isn't really a spoiler. 

-- 

Knight37

I don't know why people even bother buying games, when they can go to here 
and watch people make buffoons out of themselves for free.  Usenet, the 
cheapskate's entertainment.
-- HP on csip.games.*

It's elementary, my dear mtkafka <mcu...@prodigy.net>:

> Werner Arend wrote:
> 
>> freestone wilson wrote:
>>
>> > hi all.
>> >
>> > what is the deepest, rpg?
>>
>> Depends upon the definition of "deep":
>>
>> deep = asking meaningful questions : Planescape: Torment
> 
> PULEASE!  We're talking crpg not ADVENTURE, crpg-lite games! :p
> I liked PST for what it was.  But it was weak as a crpg game for me!
> IMO!

Troll.
 
>> deep = deeper immersion : Thief (although not technically an rpg,
>>                                 it felt like one)
> 
> uhm, thats a first person SNEAKER, not really a crpg.  though anythings
> anything these days.  so I guess you;re right!

Thief is not really an RPG. Deus Ex is though. There's a subtle difference.
 
>> deep = complex story : Fallout 2, Deus Ex
> 
> Deus Ex cheesey, Fallout 2 good, I'd add System Shock 2 if you put Deus
> Ex in (more for deep ambiance, than story).

Yeah, maybe SS2 should get the "deepest immersion" award.
 
>> deep = complicated game mechanics (this is a bad thing): Wizardry 8
> 
> BAD THING?!? why?!?! ah I remember you. I had a few remarks about Wiz 8
> and classic crpgs and whatnut in December with you... iirc... I guess
> for you its bad.  Not bad for me! I think based on what I've read of
> freestone wilson's past posts hes definteily an OLD SCHOOL crpg type...
> anyway.

I agree, deep game mechanics is not a bad thing. It's just a thing some 
people like and others do not like. I like it some of the time.

-- 

Knight37

Never send a human to do a machine's job.
-- Agent Smith, "The Matrix"

Mike Noren wrote:
> Yeah. Munchkins, unite!
> 
> Neverwinter Nights is a faithful reenactment of any PnP AD&D session
> I've ever played. Not that that is how it must be, or should be, but
> it's what the players want. It seems one only need one Munchkin player
> who's memorized the rule book for any session to degrade into Diablo.

I suspect it has more to do with the DM's ability to divide his time into 
"quality roleplaying" sessions with each individual (that wants one). The more 
players, the less likely to happen. I suppose in a perfect world we'd all be in 
character all the time and all interacting together. Never seen it happen in 
groups of more than two players and a DM, though.

> Except when I'm DM'ing of course, but then the AD&D rules then have
> very very little to do with what actually happens in-game.

I like 3E. But I find I'm enjoying each session less and less - is it old age 
slowly creeping up on me, or what? I think it's a lack of "quality roleplaying", 
most likely - when one combat takes all four hours of the session because of the 
tactical rules, and the adventure consists of multiple combats strung together 
with a thin veneer of story... *shrug*

> According to that definition both Tekken3 and Tiger Woods 99 PGA Tour
> Golf  are rpg's... 

OK, I guess we have to add the usual constraints of a PnP roleplaying game.

> If you asked me, I'd say it's not roleplaying until
> you adjust your actions to the persona you're playing.

I'd say if the persona dictates what you do, it's acting. If you dictate what the 
persona does, it's roleplaying. (I take it for granted that when you choose a 
role, you personally define its constraints and attempt to stick to them, but 
exceptions always abound).

I'm probably not conveying what I want to convey, as usual.

imp

>:)

"Knight37" <knig...@email.com> wrote in message
news:Xns927085F5B6CDknight37m@130.133.1.4...
> It's elementary, my dear rrevved <ed_bain@address.here>:
>
> > On Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:00:55 +0800, "Brian H."
> > <bh1234...@nospam.please.ismart.net> wrote:
> >
> >>Anarchronox also impressed me by make me thinking about the death
> >>scene of Fatima.
> >
> > Thanks for the spoiler.
>
> That isn't really a spoiler.
>

Here's another spoiler:

The Fellowship is evil! Batlin is working for the Guardian!

"Werner Arend" <de...@unknown.host.de> wrote in message
news:3D62189C.4050700@unknown.host.de...
>
> deep = complicated game mechanics (this is a bad thing): Wizardry 8
>

Wiz 8 is complicated? Probably it is complicated for someone.  But in the
beginning of the game your party is all level 1.  How complicated to control
a level 1 party? And then there are tons of "automatic" options, like
auto-targeting enemies, auto-retarget-single target spells, and
auto-increase-your-skills-when-you-use-them,
auto-notify-you-if-monsters-or-items-scatter-around.... I would say that the
user interface is a state of art.

>
> Werner
>

"Mike Noren" <mike_no...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:da74mukasb7qeutvpue53uef9q7silivdq@4ax.com...
> Replying to Ian Montgomerie <i...@ianmontgomerie.com> :
> I'm not very knowledgeable about adventures, as I tend to run,
> screaming, in the other direction when confronted with one, because I
> HATE puzzles, but TLJ and Rise of the Dragon would probably go on my
> top-ten-of-all-time list. If I ever made such a list.

I really liked Rise of the Dragon too.  Was they Dynamix?   Did that company
ever do any of the sequels along the same lines?  Seems to me that game came
with some advertising in the box for a sequel using the same game
'engine/system,' but I never saw it.

Yes..The Longest Journey is a really good game..just finished it myself.
Screams for a sequel though. After playing Torment I really couldn't go back
to playing games like crpgs NWN, so I checked out The Longest Journey.  Well
worth it.

BTW..I was able to run the game just fine under WinXP Pro and DirectX8.1; so
it should work under DirectX 8.

Victor



>
> If you want a good story without the CRPG aspects of combat and
> character development, check out The Longest Journey (a *gasp*
> adventure game - with a reputation among adventure game fans similar
> to Torment's rep on this newsgroup).  I haven't finished it yet -
> annoyingly, it seems to work on Directx7 but not Directx8, so I have
> to hook an old PC up to my monitor to play it.  I can vouch that it
> has at least as much dialog as Torment, though it is somewhat more
> linear, and IMO the story is good but a bit below Torment level.
>

Brian H. wrote:

> "Werner Arend" <de...@unknown.host.de> wrote in message
> news:3D62189C.4050700@unknown.host.de...
> 
>>deep = complicated game mechanics (this is a bad thing): Wizardry 8
> 
> Wiz 8 is complicated? Probably it is complicated for someone.  But in the
> beginning of the game your party is all level 1.  How complicated to control
> a level 1 party? And then there are tons of "automatic" options, like
> auto-targeting enemies, auto-retarget-single target spells, and
> auto-increase-your-skills-when-you-use-them,
> auto-notify-you-if-monsters-or-items-scatter-around.... I would say that the
> user interface is a state of art.


W8 has a complicated attribute and skill system with too many
dependencies. There are skills, attributes and spell schools that
are nearly useless. Why have them? And an attribute and skill
scaling system of 1-100 doesn't make any sense. 1-20 would do
the same for the game and is simpler and easier to manage.

Not that W8 is the only one here. Attributes should be a means to an
end. Instead I see RPGs wallowing in stats for no other purpose
than to give the player something to think about. Well, these
are not the things I want to think about when playing.


Werner

Werner Arend <de...@unknown.host.de> writes:

> W8 has a complicated attribute and skill system with too many
> dependencies. There are skills, attributes and spell schools that
> are nearly useless. Why have them? And an attribute and skill
> scaling system of 1-100 doesn't make any sense. 1-20 would do
> the same for the game and is simpler and easier to manage.

Interesting that you would find Wiz8 of all games of overdoing it with the
attributes, skills and spells. Of all the RPG's I played I found that Wiz8
has one of the most balanced systems as far as that is concerned. I can
hardly remember a single spell for instance that wasn't of some use.

Comparing that, eg, with Might&Magic 6++ there's about 2/3 of the spells
not useful for anything. I admit you have to be a bit of a fan of stats to
like Wiz8's approach, but I really find that the stats and character
development portion of the game are one of its overall strengths. The
tactical combat being another.
 
> Not that W8 is the only one here. Attributes should be a means to an
> end. Instead I see RPGs wallowing in stats for no other purpose
> than to give the player something to think about. Well, these
> are not the things I want to think about when playing.

I think that's really a matter of taste. Just as millions of Merkins love
baseball out of the sole reason that they can go nuts on the stats. I guess 
you're more the soccer kinda guy. Not much else to keep score of than the
goals and otherwise enjoy the technique.

Regards, Hartmut "never evne understood the rules" Schmider
-- 
        Hartmut Schmider      | Morality is a venereal disease. 
        Queen's University    | Its primary stage is called virtue; 
        --                    | its secondary stage, boredom; 
        h...@post.queensu.ca   | its tertiary stage, syphilis. (Karl Kraus)

Replying to imp <imp...@partmaps.ntlworld.com> :

>> it's what the players want. It seems one only need one Munchkin player
>> who's memorized the rule book for any session to degrade into Diablo.
>
>I suspect it has more to do with the DM's ability to divide his time into 
>"quality roleplaying" sessions with each individual (that wants one). The more 
>players, the less likely to happen. I suppose in a perfect world we'd all be in 
>character all the time and all interacting together. Never seen it happen in 
>groups of more than two players and a DM, though.

I've had very nice sessions with at least four players. Then, of
course, I rolled the dice every now and then to keep the players
happy, but in reality I made all the decisions on the fly... Otherwise
the game bogged down too much.

>> Except when I'm DM'ing of course, but then the AD&D rules then have
>> very very little to do with what actually happens in-game.
>
>I like 3E. But I find I'm enjoying each session less and less - is it old age 
>slowly creeping up on me, or what? I think it's a lack of "quality roleplaying", 
>most likely - when one combat takes all four hours of the session because of the 
>tactical rules, and the adventure consists of multiple combats strung together 
>with a thin veneer of story... *shrug*

Yes. The fighting isn't much fun, to tell the truth - it's the social
interaction in the group that's fun, and there's more interaction
doing anything other than fighting. 

But with some players it's hopeless. I've talked before about the
horror of playing with Munchkin Heroes From Hell.

> And here it is again. Why is it that people assume crpg's should be about
> killing hordes of monsters? I blame the game makers of the 80's. They made
> all these rpg's with only one thing to do, and it stuck. Now the whole genre
> is in a rut, despite a few exceptions (fallout, pst, *maybe bg2, deus ex)

The RPG is alive thanks to Fallout and the Adventure genre died around
the same time RPG was getting popular.

> PST is not an adventure game. Not even close. And I should know since I have
> played adventure games since about 1985. Just trust me on this.  Its not
> even adventure-lite. Its a HARDCORE rpg, among the very few good rpg's ever
> made on computer. Its about as good as an rpg on a computer can really be,
> since freedom of will is so difficult to simulate in a computer game.

I always assumed that Planescape: Torment was the most Adventure like
RPG, but after reading what you said that it's is a HARDCORE RPG. I
began to agree because Planscape: Torment has only one thing in common
with an Adventure game. It's story was so powerful, the characters
were oozing with personality, feeling, and empathy. I am an
ex-Adventure game player because Adventure games are just guessing
games with puzzles or read the game designer mind game. Planescape:
Torment gave me a great story, but with out all the fuss. The fuss is
the puzzles that are in an Adventure game. There is only one way to
aproach it and figure it out. Planscape: Torment had dilemmas but
there were more than one way to solve it or figure it out. I needed no
hint book or hints to finish it.

> > uhm, thats a first person SNEAKER, not really a crpg.  though anythings
> > anything these days.  so I guess you;re right!

Agreed, Theif is a first person sneaker.

> Thief is not really an RPG. Deus Ex is though. There's a subtle difference.

Theif is an action/adventure with a little bit of some RPG wheras
System Shock was action/RPG with a little bit of Adventure in it.

> >> deep = complex story : Fallout 2, Deus Ex
> > 
> > Deus Ex cheesey, Fallout 2 good, I'd add System Shock 2 if you put Deus
> > Ex in (more for deep ambiance, than story).

Can't comment on Deus Ex, never played it.

Replying to helt...@hotmail.com (Heltombro) :

>Can't comment on Deus Ex, never played it.

I've bitten the bullet, and am playing it right now.

My impressions so far (I'm currently clearing out a hangar at the NYC
Airport):

1) Nice graphics, noticeably better than Half Life. The demo really
doesn't do the game justice at all - the graphics in the demo put me
off this game at the time. The demo is really, really, bad, just like
Half-Lifes is really, really good.

2) Story? What story?

3) Depth? What depth?

There's only been one minute plot twist so far, in that the UN troops
have turned out to be evil occupants flying around in black choppers
and releasing gene-tampered viruses on the unsuspecting public,
whereas the Patriot terrorists are really the nice guys trying to
bring the antidote to the poor and homeless. I'm sure everyone was as
surprised and shocked at this turn of events as I was <cough>.

There's been ample leads the UN troops are also in league with, or
perhaps controlled by, space aliens wanting to invade Earth. All the
more reason to stay on the UN team!

The only thing missing now is a What Man Was Not Supposed To Meddle
With plot twist, and I can feel one coming on. Other plot items
looming overhead is a fight against Hermann the bio-engineered german;
the tragic death of my lawful good brutha; and a fight against version
2.0 of Me, whose existence has been hinted at in some emails.

Maps are laid out so that there are always two routes to the goal: one
big freeway lined with gun turrets and enemies, and one air duct you
can crawl in to get through behind the enemies back. Whenever one runs
into heavy resistance, you just have to start looking for that air
duct or secret passage.

So far, ten or so hours into the game, it plays like a much sneakier,
much darker (literally), somewhat prettier, and quite a bit less
interesting version of Half-Life, with rather unimpressive weapons and
irritating micro-management of the inventory. The rpg element, the
character development, has so far been purely cosmetic. The background
info seems solid and well researched (relayed via hacking computers
and reading newspapers strewn about - I have to hand it to the writer,
he actually managed to predict the future fairly well).

Hopefully the story picks up speed & momentum later on.


Incidentally, I selected the black guy for hero, and he looks exactly
like Wesley Snipes in Blade. Coolness point awarded.

"Mike Noren" <mike_no...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:lk39mu4op6b2rrunr6c1e8ep0vuce3oonf@4ax.com...
> Replying to helt...@hotmail.com (Heltombro) :
>
> >Can't comment on Deus Ex, never played it.
>
> I've bitten the bullet, and am playing it right now.
>
> My impressions so far (I'm currently clearing out a hangar at the NYC
> Airport):
>
> 1) Nice graphics, noticeably better than Half Life. The demo really
> doesn't do the game justice at all - the graphics in the demo put me
> off this game at the time. The demo is really, really, bad, just like
> Half-Lifes is really, really good.
>
> 2) Story? What story?
>
> 3) Depth? What depth?
>

You just cleared the hanger? LOL.  No wonder you have little idea about the
depth of the game as you have just scratched about 10% of the surface of the
game.

> There's only been one minute plot twist so far, in that the UN troops
> have turned out to be evil occupants flying around in black choppers
> and releasing gene-tampered viruses on the unsuspecting public,
> whereas the Patriot terrorists are really the nice guys trying to
> bring the antidote to the poor and homeless. I'm sure everyone was as
> surprised and shocked at this turn of events as I was <cough>.
>

It's more than that.  Sigh.... Looks like BG2 & Diablo spoiled most gamers
now that they want to know who the foozle is right before they open the box.

> There's been ample leads the UN troops are also in league with, or
> perhaps controlled by, space aliens wanting to invade Earth. All the
> more reason to stay on the UN team!
>

LOL.

> The only thing missing now is a What Man Was Not Supposed To Meddle
> With plot twist, and I can feel one coming on. Other plot items
> looming overhead is a fight against Hermann the bio-engineered german;
> the tragic death of my lawful good brutha; and a fight against version
> 2.0 of Me, whose existence has been hinted at in some emails.
>

You can't save your brother? You suck.

> Maps are laid out so that there are always two routes to the goal: one
> big freeway lined with gun turrets and enemies, and one air duct you
> can crawl in to get through behind the enemies back. Whenever one runs
> into heavy resistance, you just have to start looking for that air
> duct or secret passage.
>

Actually, most scenarios have more than 2 routes.  Well, it depends on the
intelligence of the gamers.  We need to blame the designers for that because
they didn't make things too obvious.

> So far, ten or so hours into the game, it plays like a much sneakier,
> much darker (literally), somewhat prettier, and quite a bit less
> interesting version of Half-Life, with rather unimpressive weapons and
> irritating micro-management of the inventory.

Inventory is the simplest among the CRPGs but probably the most complicated
among FPS.  And about weapons, yeah, why there is no "daikatana"?

> The rpg element, the
> character development, has so far been purely cosmetic.

Cosmetic?

There is one cybernetic upgrade that can increase your strength.  With this,
you can use it to solve many puzzles that you have to find other ways to
solve.  Like moving a hugely heavy object to block your enemies, or open
into new routes. Another example, there is another upgrade that let you jump
sky high.  So, you can use this power to jump from a skyscraper to the
ground without turning yourself into goo.  So similarly, you can use this
ability to solve some puzzles which otherwise you have to think another way.
Your choice to develop your character affect the way how you'll play the
game.

> The background
> info seems solid and well researched (relayed via hacking computers
> and reading newspapers strewn about - I have to hand it to the writer,
> he actually managed to predict the future fairly well).
>
> Hopefully the story picks up speed & momentum later on.
>

I should warn you that Deus Ex is a very long game.  It is not for someone
who lacks patience.

>
> Incidentally, I selected the black guy for hero, and he looks exactly
> like Wesley Snipes in Blade. Coolness point awarded.
>

Hartmut Schmider wrote:

> Werner Arend <de...@unknown.host.de> writes:
> 
>>W8 has a complicated attribute and skill system with too many
>>dependencies. There are skills, attributes and spell schools that
>>are nearly useless. Why have them? And an attribute and skill
>>scaling system of 1-100 doesn't make any sense. 1-20 would do
>>the same for the game and is simpler and easier to manage.
> 
> Interesting that you would find Wiz8 of all games of overdoing it with the
> attributes, skills and spells. Of all the RPG's I played I found that Wiz8
> has one of the most balanced systems as far as that is concerned. I can
> hardly remember a single spell for instance that wasn't of some use.
> 
> Comparing that, eg, with Might&Magic 6++ there's about 2/3 of the spells
> not useful for anything. I admit you have to be a bit of a fan of stats to
> like Wiz8's approach, but I really find that the stats and character
> development portion of the game are one of its overall strengths. The
> tactical combat being another.


Tactical combat? What tactical combat? You can't even more your 
characters separately - and that would be the absolute minimum
in order to speak of tactics.

Otherwise, yes I agree that W8 is better that MM 6+ regarding
skill and spell balance. But that doesn't say much.

Perhaps I should elaborate: it isn't so much a complex stats and
skills system that I object to, but the fact that everything
you do has some impact on some number. My experience
while playing W8 was that I was always thinking in stats rather
than "in character" in a role-playing fashion. In general
terms, you start to think "where do I want to get my characters,
and what do I have to do to get there most efficiently". This
makes playing the game rather mechanical. True, you can avoid
it, but the game doesn't encourage you to. The game encourages
playing-by-stats. Morrowind, MM 6 and 7 and W8 are all similar
in this.
Compare this with other games like PST, BG2, Fallout etc. There,
you only influence the numbers when you level up. You're spared
having to think in numbers while you play and can concentrate
on role-playing - and combat-efficient combat instead of
stat-driver combat.

In short, I don't like any game so far where a stat-driver style
of play can be used. And usually, it's the more stat-heavy games
that implement this.

So far, there are two games that stand out in my mind as good in
that regard: PST made creative use of so far "unimportant" attributes
to enhance roleplaying without encumbering the system with more
numbers. Deus Ex introduced a minimal-stats system that nevertheless
left most important options open for you.

> 
>>Not that W8 is the only one here. Attributes should be a means to an
>>end. Instead I see RPGs wallowing in stats for no other purpose
>>than to give the player something to think about. Well, these
>>are not the things I want to think about when playing.
> 
> I think that's really a matter of taste. Just as millions of Merkins love
> baseball out of the sole reason that they can go nuts on the stats. I guess 
> you're more the soccer kinda guy. Not much else to keep score of than the
> goals and otherwise enjoy the technique.


You see, the problem is that after 20+ years of role-playing, I
understand even complicated systems fast, and instantly notice
the most stat-efficient use of the rules. When mastering PnP
sessions, that's an asset, but if you just want to play it is
hard to constantly having to work around my brain's PnP-master
conditioning. More so if numbers are shoved at you every turn
you take.

Werner

On Thu, 22 Aug 2002 09:39:50 +0200, Mike Noren
<mike_no...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>Replying to helt...@hotmail.com (Heltombro) :
>
>>Can't comment on Deus Ex, never played it.
>
>I've bitten the bullet, and am playing it right now.
>
>My impressions so far (I'm currently clearing out a hangar at the NYC
>Airport):
>
>1) Nice graphics, noticeably better than Half Life. The demo really
>doesn't do the game justice at all - the graphics in the demo put me
>off this game at the time. The demo is really, really, bad, just like
>Half-Lifes is really, really good.
>
>2) Story? What story?
>
>3) Depth? What depth?
>
>There's only been one minute plot twist so far, in that the UN troops
>have turned out to be evil occupants flying around in black choppers
>and releasing gene-tampered viruses on the unsuspecting public,
>whereas the Patriot terrorists are really the nice guys trying to
>bring the antidote to the poor and homeless. I'm sure everyone was as
>surprised and shocked at this turn of events as I was <cough>.
>
>There's been ample leads the UN troops are also in league with, or
>perhaps controlled by, space aliens wanting to invade Earth. All the
>more reason to stay on the UN team!
>
>The only thing missing now is a What Man Was Not Supposed To Meddle
>With plot twist, and I can feel one coming on. Other plot items
>looming overhead is a fight against Hermann the bio-engineered german;
>the tragic death of my lawful good brutha; and a fight against version
>2.0 of Me, whose existence has been hinted at in some emails.
>
>Maps are laid out so that there are always two routes to the goal: one
>big freeway lined with gun turrets and enemies, and one air duct you
>can crawl in to get through behind the enemies back. Whenever one runs
>into heavy resistance, you just have to start looking for that air
>duct or secret passage.
>
>So far, ten or so hours into the game, it plays like a much sneakier,
>much darker (literally), somewhat prettier, and quite a bit less
>interesting version of Half-Life, with rather unimpressive weapons and
>irritating micro-management of the inventory. The rpg element, the
>character development, has so far been purely cosmetic. The background
>info seems solid and well researched (relayed via hacking computers
>and reading newspapers strewn about - I have to hand it to the writer,
>he actually managed to predict the future fairly well).
>
>Hopefully the story picks up speed & momentum later on.
>
>
>Incidentally, I selected the black guy for hero, and he looks exactly
>like Wesley Snipes in Blade. Coolness point awarded.

Out of interest, where have you been assigning your XP points ?

IIRC, first time round I put 1 point in electronics and computer, then
put them in rifle until I had 3 points (IIRC) - ah, the joys of a
silenced sniper rifle and a roof to stand on...

Also, it makes the machine gun a better weapon.

-- 

Bunnies aren't just cute like everybody supposes !
They got them hoppy legs and twitchy little noses !
And what's with all the carrots ?  
What do they need such good eyesight for anyway ?
Bunnies !  Bunnies !  It must be BUNNIES !

Replying to Mark Morrison <drdp...@aol.com> :

>>Hopefully the story picks up speed & momentum later on.
>>
>Out of interest, where have you been assigning your XP points ?

Rifle and pistol, and one point on swimming.

>IIRC, first time round I put 1 point in electronics and computer, then
>put them in rifle until I had 3 points (IIRC)

I now have three in rifle and pistol. The pistol is the best weapon
for close range fighting; i have an assault shotgun and an assault
rifle, but neither kills enemies as quickly as a bog standard pistol
does.

The most powerful weapon so far, though, is the stun gun. Taking down
a MiB with ordinary weapons takes about three mags with the assault
rifle and is impossible with the shotgun - but one zap with the
stunner and hes helpless, another and he's out of commission.

Distance enemies I headshoot with the sniper rifle, of course.

On Thu, 22 Aug 2002 22:46:23 +0200, Mike Noren
<mike_no...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>Distance enemies I headshoot with the sniper rifle, of course.

Naturally.            :)

I never used the flamethrower - the rocket laucher is nice, and
doubles as a door opener.

-- 

Bunnies aren't just cute like everybody supposes !
They got them hoppy legs and twitchy little noses !
And what's with all the carrots ?  
What do they need such good eyesight for anyway ?
Bunnies !  Bunnies !  It must be BUNNIES !

Mark Morrison <drdp...@aol.com> writes:

>On Thu, 22 Aug 2002 22:46:23 +0200, Mike Noren
><mike_no...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>>Distance enemies I headshoot with the sniper rifle, of course.

>Naturally.            :)

>I never used the flamethrower - the rocket laucher is nice, and
>doubles as a door opener.

Someone once said something like 'Counter strike sucks ! there
are no realistic weapons like the rocket launcher!'. I never
felt pity like I did then. The idea of the rocket launcher is
one of the worst heritages from doom/quake. Every game has one,
even soldier of fortune 2, which is multiplayer heaven. The idea
of having an uberweapon like the rocket launcher just spoils any
tactical game.

Mark Morrison <drdp...@aol.com> wrote in message news:<nonamuge3t9qgd9u7...@4ax.com>...

> >Distance enemies I headshoot with the sniper rifle, of course.
> 
> Naturally.            :)
> 
> I never used the flamethrower - the rocket laucher is nice, and
> doubles as a door opener.

Yes, me too!

The balancing of the weapons appear a bit off - for instance, the only
two weapons which I've never had a shortage of ammo for is the 10mm
pistol - and the GEP rocket launcher... and as you say rockets are
more plentiful than lockpicks.

Mike Noren wrote:

> Mark Morrison <drdp...@aol.com> wrote in message news:<nonamuge3t9qgd9u7...@4ax.com>...
> 
>>>Distance enemies I headshoot with the sniper rifle, of course.
>>>
>>Naturally.            :)
>>
>>I never used the flamethrower - the rocket laucher is nice, and
>>doubles as a door opener.
> 
> Yes, me too!
> 
> The balancing of the weapons appear a bit off - for instance, the only
> two weapons which I've never had a shortage of ammo for is the 10mm
> pistol - and the GEP rocket launcher... and as you say rockets are
> more plentiful than lockpicks.


Add that you only need one rocket to open a door, but often more
than one lockpick.
I always kept the lockpicks for doors with INF strength, or when
I wanted to keep silent. In any other case, I used a LAM or a rocket.
In many cases, you can even open more than one door or locker with
a single rocket or LAM. My personal record was 4 with one LAM.

Werner

Mike Noren <mike_no...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message news:<lk39mu4op6b2rrunr...@4ax.com>...
> I've bitten the bullet, and am playing it right now.
> 
> My impressions so far (I'm currently clearing out a hangar at the NYC
> Airport):
[snip]
> 2) Story? What story?

You are hardly getting started at this point. What you've been through
so far is just a warmup.

> 3) Depth? What depth?

Comment again when you've finished the game a few times trying out
different styles of play.

> There's only been one minute plot twist so far, in that the UN troops
> have turned out to be evil occupants flying around in black choppers
> and releasing gene-tampered viruses on the unsuspecting public,

That's incorrect - investigate some more.

> whereas the Patriot terrorists are really the nice guys trying to
> bring the antidote to the poor and homeless. I'm sure everyone was as
> surprised and shocked at this turn of events as I was <cough>.
>
> There's been ample leads the UN troops are also in league with, or
> perhaps controlled by, space aliens wanting to invade Earth. All the
> more reason to stay on the UN team!

LOL! You need to finish the game. Oh, and watch the introduction
again.
 
> The only thing missing now is a What Man Was Not Supposed To Meddle
> With plot twist, and I can feel one coming on. Other plot items
> looming overhead is a fight against Hermann the bio-engineered german;
> the tragic death of my lawful good brutha; and a fight against version
> 2.0 of Me, whose existence has been hinted at in some emails.

It looks like you haven't read any of the strategy guides or
walkthroughs. If so, good for you! Your speculations inadvertently
support the premise that Deus Ex has depth in story.

> Maps are laid out so that there are always two routes to the goal: one
> big freeway lined with gun turrets and enemies, and one air duct you
> can crawl in to get through behind the enemies back. Whenever one runs
> into heavy resistance, you just have to start looking for that air
> duct or secret passage.

Deus Ex allows a huge variety in play styles - multiple ways to solve
most any problem depending on _your_ style. Most reasonable approaches
will work. You can go in guns blazing like a Terminator - or ghost
through maps unseen by your opponents. There's a depth that isn't
obvious until you've played through a few times.

> So far, ten or so hours into the game, it plays like a much sneakier,
> much darker (literally), somewhat prettier, and quite a bit less
> interesting version of Half-Life, with rather unimpressive weapons and
> irritating micro-management of the inventory. 

What do you find irritating? Personally, I think Deus Ex has the best
inventory system around. Do you realize that _any_ item can be
assigned to the 9 quick access slots?

> ... The rpg element, the character development, has so far been purely 
> cosmetic.

Perhaps it seems that way. But, as I said before, you are hardly
getting started. The most important choices for character development
are yet to come. You've probably already made a few - initial skills,
that first augmentation - but haven't played enough to really
understand how much they matter.

> ... The background
> info seems solid and well researched (relayed via hacking computers
> and reading newspapers strewn about - I have to hand it to the writer,
> he actually managed to predict the future fairly well).
>
> Hopefully the story picks up speed & momentum later on.

;)
 
> Incidentally, I selected the black guy for hero, and he looks exactly
> like Wesley Snipes in Blade. Coolness point awarded.

Replying to gbayl...@yahoo.com (gbayles) :

>> My impressions so far (I'm currently clearing out a hangar at the
NYC
>> Airport):
>[snip]
>> 2) Story? What story?
>
>You are hardly getting started at this point. What you've been
through
>so far is just a warmup.

If so, it sure is a long warmup. I've passed Hong Kong and am right
now in a superfreighter in NY. That's the seventh 'scene', perhaps 20
hours into the game, roughly half-way according to a game site I
visited, and the story hasn't picked up pace any.

Deus Ex is trailing Half Life in the story & atmosphere department by
about a mile, jockeying for position with relative light-weights such
as Unreal. I don't think I will complete it, I am already losing
interest.

>> 3) Depth? What depth?
>
>Comment again when you've finished the game a few times trying out
>different styles of play.

I've seen, what, three apparent choices in this game so far, e.g.
whether I should kill Lebedev myself or let Wotshername the evil UN
hitgirl kill him; or whether to go out the window from my bro's hotel
room or escort the rushing idiot through the waiting *hordes* of cops
and bots.

I've tested both options whenever practical (but dropped the ball with
brother - to keep him from rushing I went out the window and
eliminated the troops from the outside-in, but when I got back to the
room bro was already gone - presumably he disappeared the second I
left through the window - and I just didn't care enough to replay the
section again) and neither seems to have changed the story
significantly.

Or is 'depth' just deciding on whether to specialize in sniping or
jumping?

>> There's only been one minute plot twist so far, in that the UN
troops
>> have turned out to be evil occupants flying around in black
choppers
>> and releasing gene-tampered viruses on the unsuspecting public,
>
>That's incorrect - investigate some more.

Huh? I assume you mean that it's really Illuminati/MJ12 doing it, but
its the UN who's doing the actual spreading of the virus. In black
choppers. There's been no further plot twist since I switched sides.

Of course, my guess is that the UN will eventually throw out the
corrupt leaders and redeem itself, under the leadership of general
wotshisname, the munitions guy in the liberty island base.

>> The only thing missing now is a What Man Was Not Supposed To Meddle
>> With plot twist, and I can feel one coming on. Other plot items
>> looming overhead is a fight against Hermann the bio-engineered
german;
>> the tragic death of my lawful good brutha; and a fight against
version
>> 2.0 of Me, whose existence has been hinted at in some emails.
>
>It looks like you haven't read any of the strategy guides or
>walkthroughs. If so, good for you! Your speculations inadvertently
>support the premise that Deus Ex has depth in story.

Of the things I suspected were going to happen all but the fight
against v2.0 have now come to pass (although Hermann the German
survived our first encounter, and I avoided our second) - how do you
reckon that indicative of depth?

>> Maps are laid out so that there are always two routes to the goal:
one
>> big freeway lined with gun turrets and enemies, and one air duct
you
>> can crawl in to get through behind the enemies back. Whenever one
runs
>> into heavy resistance, you just have to start looking for that air
>> duct or secret passage.
>
>Deus Ex allows a huge variety in play styles - multiple ways to solve
>most any problem depending on _your_ style. Most reasonable
approaches
>will work. You can go in guns blazing like a Terminator - or ghost
>through maps unseen by your opponents. There's a depth that isn't
>obvious until you've played through a few times.

IMO as a veteran of thousands of deathmatches, there is only one way
of playing Deus Ex: sneaky.

There always exist a heavily guarded highway, but you *can't* go in
guns blazing - your weapons are too weak. Quake-style playing simply
isn't an option when every guard requires two point blank shotgun
blasts to the head to go down ('realistic' my ass!). Sneaking is not
only possible, but necessary and easy, even though it is not my
natural style of play.

Sneaking would be a lot quicker with a decent silenced weapon with a
lot of ammo, but only two of the 'normal' weapons, the sniper rifle
and the pistol, produce one shot kills (on bog-standard guards), and
the sniper rifle is perpetually low on ammo. And the enemies instantly
know where you are even when doing silenced distance kills.

Now, with the dragon tooth one can rush the enemy, but many of them
explode upon death, so killing with a melee weapon is often not a good
idea.

>> So far, ten or so hours into the game, it plays like a much
sneakier,
>> much darker (literally), somewhat prettier, and quite a bit less
>> interesting version of Half-Life, with rather unimpressive weapons
and
>> irritating micro-management of the inventory. 
>
>What do you find irritating? Personally, I think Deus Ex has the best
>inventory system around. Do you realize that _any_ item can be
>assigned to the 9 quick access slots?

Obviously, as the game does that automatically (yes, I know you can
reassign them).
What I mean is things such as that I couldn't pick up the LAW even
though I had nine empty slots in the inventory, and the LAW requires
only four.
Because the LAW requires four _consecutive horizontal_ slots, and
there's no way of knowing just by looking at it.

Every time I want to pick up some new weapon, I have to rearrange my
inventory: "hmm... If I move the crowbar THERE, and then the lam's
THERE, and the hazmat suit THERE, then I get three consecutive
horizontal slots... Hm, no go. Perhaps it requires two by two slots?
If I move...<etc>". That is inventory micro-management, it is no fun,
and is something the game should do automatically.

>> ... The rpg element, the character development, has so far been
purely
>> cosmetic.
>
>Perhaps it seems that way. But, as I said before, you are hardly
>getting started. The most important choices for character development
>are yet to come. You've probably already made a few - initial skills,
>that first augmentation - but haven't played enough to really
>understand how much they matter.

The augmentations haven't really mattered at all so far, not for the
central storyline action. The speed/jump augmentation has allowed me
to reach some 'hidden' extra goodies, the strenght aug has abled me to
lug explosive barrels around to blow up doors and bots, and the remote
probe is like a target seeking EMP grenade - but none of this has been
necessary for the story.

The biggest issue with this game is weapons balancing - many are
either ridiculously underpowered, e.g. the completely useless stealth
pistol, ridiculously overpowered, e.g. the dragon tooth and riot prod,
or ridiculously oversized, e.g. the flame thrower. The playtesters
deserve to be spanked.

Furthermore the sound effects, especially the weapons sound effects,
are deeply unsatisfying. The shotgun sounds like closing a book. And
all weapons except the pistol, the shotgun, and the (weak)
submachinegun suffer from shortage of ammo.
 
The nicest thing about this game, and the chief reason I keep playing,
remains the graphics. At 1280x1024x32 with FSAA it remains clean,
fast, and detailed. Some settings are also nice, frequently both
original and interesting - for instance I definitely get the
impression the designers knew Hong Kong well. And the voice acting
isn't too bad.

But, as I said, I doubt I'll ever finish it: right now it's only
bloody mindedness that keeps me going, 'cause the superfreighter is
BORING to clear out. The story doesn't grip me, and the action doesn't
give me my daily fix of adrenaline. I'll take Half Life or Medal of
Honor: Allied Assault over Deus Ex any day.

mike_no...@yahoo.co.uk (Mike Noren) wrote in message news:<6a0d745b.02082...@posting.google.com>...
[snip]
> If so, it sure is a long warmup. I've passed Hong Kong and am right
> now in a superfreighter in NY. That's the seventh 'scene', perhaps 20
> hours into the game, roughly half-way according to a game site I
> visited, and the story hasn't picked up pace any.

You should be well into the story now. Is Sarah Renton still in NY?
Did you meet her boyfriend? How's Paul doing? There are a lot of
things affected by your choices. You won't see all the story branches
one time through.

> Deus Ex is trailing Half Life in the story & atmosphere department by
> about a mile, jockeying for position with relative light-weights such
> as Unreal. I don't think I will complete it, I am already losing
> interest.

I loved Half-Life but Deus Ex has more story depth by an order of
magnitude or two.

> I've seen, what, three apparent choices in this game so far, e.g.
> whether I should kill Lebedev myself or let Wotshername the evil UN
> hitgirl kill him; or whether to go out the window from my bro's hotel
> room or escort the rushing idiot through the waiting *hordes* of cops
> and bots.

There are a lot more choices than you seem to be aware of. Did you
rescue Smuggler's friend? How many people in Half-Life do you get to
have a conversation with - let me think ZERO! Now how many people can
you talk to in Deus Ex? There's a whole lot of story depth revealed in
those conversations but you have to do bit of work to get it.
 
> I've tested both options whenever practical (but dropped the ball with
> brother - to keep him from rushing I went out the window and
> eliminated the troops from the outside-in, but when I got back to the
> room bro was already gone - presumably he disappeared the second I
> left through the window - and I just didn't care enough to replay the
> section again) and neither seems to have changed the story
> significantly.

The major storyline is relatively fixed. As it is in virtually all
such single player games. But there are a lot a little sub-plots that
have interesting effects throughout the game.

> Or is 'depth' just deciding on whether to specialize in sniping or
> jumping?

Here Deus Ex is two orders of magnitude better than Half-Life. There
are lots of feasible styles of play and usually several solutions to
every game problem.

[snip]
> Huh? I assume you mean that it's really Illuminati/MJ12 doing it, but
> its the UN who's doing the actual spreading of the virus. In black
> choppers. There's been no further plot twist since I switched sides.

Just what makes you think that? MJ12 has their own stealth choppers -
you should know that from Hong Kong. You've reached the freighter -
you should know that you are there to stop them from spreading the
virus in the US via helicopter. At least in New York grey death "is
something they put in the water" - you should have discovered that
very early.

[snip]
> IMO as a veteran of thousands of deathmatches, there is only one way
> of playing Deus Ex: sneaky.
> 
> There always exist a heavily guarded highway, but you *can't* go in
> guns blazing - your weapons are too weak. Quake-style playing simply
> isn't an option when every guard requires two point blank shotgun
> blasts to the head to go down ('realistic' my ass!). Sneaking is not
> only possible, but necessary and easy, even though it is not my
> natural style of play.

Sneaking is my preferred style - but it is quite possible to go in
terminator style with the right augmentations and equipment. Try
again.

> Sneaking would be a lot quicker with a decent silenced weapon with a
> lot of ammo, but only two of the 'normal' weapons, the sniper rifle
> and the pistol, produce one shot kills (on bog-standard guards), and
> the sniper rifle is perpetually low on ammo. And the enemies instantly
> know where you are even when doing silenced distance kills.

There is a problem with all enemies withing a certain distance knowing
your exact location as soon as you shoot one. But you are quite wrong
about the one-shot kills. With skill upgrades and augmentations a lot
of weapons can be used to make a one shot kill - especially if you
have surprise. Shotguns, Combat Knife, XBow Dart, Throwing Knife,
Sword, Dragon Tooth. As to ammo - there is mucho plenty around if you
look.

> Now, with the dragon tooth one can rush the enemy, but many of them
> explode upon death, so killing with a melee weapon is often not a good
> idea.

Only the MIBs/WIBs, Anna, and Gunther explode. Even with them there is
enough of a delay between the death blow and the explosion for a
_skilled_ player to escape the blast. Aside from that, I love using
the sword and throwing knives, more style points in my book.

[snip]
> >What do you find irritating? Personally, I think Deus Ex has the best
> >inventory system around. Do you realize that _any_ item can be
> >assigned to the 9 quick access slots?
> 
> Obviously, as the game does that automatically (yes, I know you can
> reassign them). What I mean is things such as that I couldn't pick up the 
> LAW even though I had nine empty slots in the inventory, and the LAW 
> requires only four. Because the LAW requires four _consecutive horizontal_ 
> slots, and there's no way of knowing just by looking at it.

Point taken. Guess I just got used to it.

> The augmentations haven't really mattered at all so far, not for the
> central storyline action. The speed/jump augmentation has allowed me
> to reach some 'hidden' extra goodies, the strenght aug has abled me to
> lug explosive barrels around to blow up doors and bots, and the remote
> probe is like a target seeking EMP grenade - but none of this has been
> necessary for the story.

Of course not - why would you expect it to? What they do open
different paths to the same intermediate objectives - enhance one
style of play relative to another.
 
> The biggest issue with this game is weapons balancing - many are
> either ridiculously underpowered, e.g. the completely useless stealth
> pistol,

Hardly useless. It's damage per second is on a par with the assault
rifle. Virtually no recoil so a rapid second shot is as accurate as
the first. Very high rate of fire. It's a far better weapon than the
standard pistol. Just understand it takes two shots rather than one.

> ... ridiculously overpowered, e.g. the dragon tooth and riot prod,

Don't think so. In what way is the Dragon Tooth overpowered? Above you
said using it isn't such a good idea?

> The playtesters deserve to be spanked.

Perhaps. But, perhaps you might learn the game a bit better. First
time through I thought the shotguns were terrible - and they are until
you invest in improving the rifle skill to at least advanced level.
Now, I know that the Assault Shotgun is superb in the hands of an
expert.

> Furthermore the sound effects, especially the weapons sound effects,
> are deeply unsatisfying. The shotgun sounds like closing a book. And
> all weapons except the pistol, the shotgun, and the (weak)
> submachinegun suffer from shortage of ammo.

There is plenty of ammo for all the weapons. Methinks you are wasting
a bit or not diligent enough searching the nooks and crannies.
  
> The nicest thing about this game, and the chief reason I keep playing,
> remains the graphics. At 1280x1024x32 with FSAA it remains clean,
> fast, and detailed. Some settings are also nice, frequently both
> original and interesting - for instance I definitely get the
> impression the designers knew Hong Kong well. And the voice acting
> isn't too bad.
> 
> But, as I said, I doubt I'll ever finish it: right now it's only
> bloody mindedness that keeps me going, 'cause the superfreighter is
> BORING to clear out. 

But I loved the navy yard and freighter. There are so many, many ways
to play it. Try it without killing any innocents - those soldiers,
sailors, and chinese police believe they are protecting a load of
vaccine from terrorists. Is it ethical to murder them? Don't recall
any ethical choices in Half-Life.

> ... The story doesn't grip me, and the action doesn't give me my daily 
> fix of adrenaline. I'll take Half Life or Medal of Honor: Allied Assault 
> over Deus Ex any day.

No problem. Different sort of game for different people, different
moods. I set aside Deus Ex halfway through first time to run through
Half-Life again. The darkness and gloom got to me. But I came back,
finished it and played it again ... and again ... and every time I
discovered something new. I'd call that depth. No it isn't the daily
adrenline fix, don't think it was intended to be, don't think it
should. But I find it far more intellectually stimulating.

gbayl...@yahoo.com (gbayles) wrote in message news:<82ebdb39.02082...@posting.google.com>...

> > If so, it sure is a long warmup. I've passed Hong Kong and am right
> > now in a superfreighter in NY. That's the seventh 'scene', perhaps 20
> > hours into the game, roughly half-way according to a game site I
> > visited, and the story hasn't picked up pace any.
> 
> You should be well into the story now.

Yes, I rather suspect I am. Such as it is.

> Is Sarah Renton still in NY?

I have no idea. I met her, but was I supposed to notice her?

> Did you meet her boyfriend? How's Paul doing?

Last I saw Paul was when he popped up in Paris and gave me the
killcode to Herman the German. Which rather spoiled the eventual
showdown with HtG.

> There are a lot of
> things affected by your choices. You won't see all the story branches
> one time through.

I have a really hard time believing that the other story branches are
so different that it's worth my while to play through several times...

> > Deus Ex is trailing Half Life in the story & atmosphere department by
> > about a mile, jockeying for position with relative light-weights such
> > as Unreal. I don't think I will complete it, I am already losing
> > interest.
> 
> I loved Half-Life but Deus Ex has more story depth by an order of
> magnitude or two.

Well, I disagree. It has more story, but you see every twist coming a
mile off.

> > I've seen, what, three apparent choices in this game so far, e.g.
> > whether I should kill Lebedev myself or let Wotshername the evil UN
> > hitgirl kill him; or whether to go out the window from my bro's hotel
> > room or escort the rushing idiot through the waiting *hordes* of cops
> > and bots.
> 
> There are a lot more choices than you seem to be aware of. Did you
> rescue Smuggler's friend?

You mean Smuggler himself, don't you?
No, I didn't. Couldn't be bothered. It's not like he ever did me any
favors, or ever was of any actual use. I'd still much rather fight for
the bad guys in UNATCO and MJ12, but I don't have that choice -
although it's obvious I will eventually get the opportunity.

> How many people in Half-Life do you get to
> have a conversation with - let me think ZERO!

?Huh?
You did talk with people in Half Life, though Deus Ex does have a lot
more conversations like this:
1) I'll buy the grenade for 1500
2) I'll buy the shotgun ammo for 2000
3) Can you tell me the secret code to the security system of the
secret organization Majestic 12?

> Now how many people can
> you talk to in Deus Ex? There's a whole lot of story depth revealed in
> those conversations but you have to do bit of work to get it.

Puh-leeze.
  
> > left through the window - and I just didn't care enough to replay the
> > section again) and neither seems to have changed the story
> > significantly.
> 
> The major storyline is relatively fixed. As it is in virtually all
> such single player games. But there are a lot a little sub-plots that
> have interesting effects throughout the game.

Yeah. Like asking Paul to stay behind led to me getting the killcode
for Herman the German. Not exactly earth-shattering stuff.
 
> > Or is 'depth' just deciding on whether to specialize in sniping or
> > jumping?
> 
> Here Deus Ex is two orders of magnitude better than Half-Life. There
> are lots of feasible styles of play and usually several solutions to
> every game problem.

You mean 'sneak' or 'toss grenade'?

> [snip]
> > Huh? I assume you mean that it's really Illuminati/MJ12 doing it, but
> > its the UN who's doing the actual spreading of the virus. In black
> > choppers. There's been no further plot twist since I switched sides.
> 
> Just what makes you think that? MJ12 has their own stealth choppers -
> you should know that from Hong Kong.

Yes, but they're working through UNATCO.

> [snip]
> > IMO as a veteran of thousands of deathmatches, there is only one way
> > of playing Deus Ex: sneaky.
> > 
> > There always exist a heavily guarded highway, but you *can't* go in
> > guns blazing - your weapons are too weak. Quake-style playing simply
> > isn't an option when every guard requires two point blank shotgun
> > blasts to the head to go down ('realistic' my ass!). Sneaking is not
> > only possible, but necessary and easy, even though it is not my
> > natural style of play.
> 
> Sneaking is my preferred style - but it is quite possible to go in
> terminator style with the right augmentations and equipment. Try
> again.

For ten seconds, in one fight. The right "augmentations and equipment"
are all time limited (e.g. armor) and uses up your energy like there's
no tomorrow (e.g. energy weapon protection). Sneak & snipe on the
other hand is cheap & easy.
 
> > Sneaking would be a lot quicker with a decent silenced weapon with a
> > lot of ammo, but only two of the 'normal' weapons, the sniper rifle
> > and the pistol, produce one shot kills (on bog-standard guards), and
> > the sniper rifle is perpetually low on ammo. And the enemies instantly
> > know where you are even when doing silenced distance kills.
> 
> There is a problem with all enemies withing a certain distance knowing
> your exact location as soon as you shoot one.

And that distance is the same regardless of whether you use a silenced
weapon or not.

> But you are quite wrong
> about the one-shot kills. With skill upgrades and augmentations a lot
> of weapons can be used to make a one shot kill - especially if you
> have surprise.

A more accurate way of stating that is "only if you have the element
of surprise". Then even the crossbow can take someone out - 2 times of
3.

> Sword, Dragon Tooth. As to ammo - there is mucho plenty around if you
> look.

Dragon tooth can take ANY enemy out in one swoop, whether they're
surprised or not.
 
> > Now, with the dragon tooth one can rush the enemy, but many of them
> > explode upon death, so killing with a melee weapon is often not a good
> > idea.
> 
> Only the MIBs/WIBs, Anna, and Gunther explode.

And bots.

> > ... ridiculously overpowered, e.g. the dragon tooth and riot prod,
> 
> Don't think so. In what way is the Dragon Tooth overpowered? Above you
> said using it isn't such a good idea?

The Dragon tooth is capable of killing any enemy other than large bots
in one blow - making it as powerful as a rocket launcher. It's not a
good idea to use it on enemies that explode, though, as you're close
to them.

> > Furthermore the sound effects, especially the weapons sound effects,
> > are deeply unsatisfying. The shotgun sounds like closing a book. And
> > all weapons except the pistol, the shotgun, and the (weak)
> > submachinegun suffer from shortage of ammo.
> 
> There is plenty of ammo for all the weapons. Methinks you are wasting
> a bit or not diligent enough searching the nooks and crannies.

I search EVERYTHING EVERYWHERE. I don't move on until every air duct
is checked, every door open, every guard dead or incapacitated, every
security panel hacked.
   
> > But, as I said, I doubt I'll ever finish it: right now it's only
> > bloody mindedness that keeps me going, 'cause the superfreighter is
> > BORING to clear out. 
> 
> But I loved the navy yard and freighter. There are so many, many ways
> to play it. Try it without killing any innocents - those soldiers,
> sailors, and chinese police believe they are protecting a load of
> vaccine from terrorists. Is it ethical to murder them? Don't recall
> any ethical choices in Half-Life.

I didn't kill any innocents even the first time through - which is why
I ran low on tranquilizing darts. Ethical choice? Perhaps, but
completely consequence-free ones. I could have slaughtered every one
and it would not have made a whit of difference - that I didn't was
mostly an attempt to keep myself interested by imposing limits.
 
> > ... The story doesn't grip me, and the action doesn't give me my daily 
> > fix of adrenaline. I'll take Half Life or Medal of Honor: Allied Assault 
> > over Deus Ex any day.
> 
> No problem. Different sort of game for different people, different
> moods. I set aside Deus Ex halfway through first time to run through
> Half-Life again. The darkness and gloom got to me.

Yes it IS dark. Literally. I use the 'flashlight' augmentation all the
time, as the entire game takes place at night, in poorly lit
conditions.