🚀 go-pugleaf

freestone wilson wrote:

> hi all.
>
> what is the deepest, rpg?
> ---  or even the most complicated or involved?!
>
>  Anthony E. Strozyk , in his remenising about old rpgs, wrote about
> "the good old days".   the old rpgs when "games were Games", a few
> days ago.!
>
> not clickfests.
> not linar paths.
> not dumbed down everythings....
>
> but what ARE they?   what games were like this, or
> maybe...[hope...hope...]
> or maybe, what games are like this today?
>
> I am beginning ARCANUM.  tis it looks like a near-relative, of these
> old games, maybe close.
>
> so people....what rpgs are the deepest, most complicated?
> perhaps..."WERE" would be a better adjective!!
>
> freestone

Of recent I'd say

Morrowind has the deepest character development, not the most complex.

Arcanum has a nice deep tech vs magic scheme (some balance problems, not
TOO outrageous though).

Wizardry 8 is the bread and butter party management king of recent.

Dungeon Siege, imo, is probably the most tactically challenging (on the
Hard setting) concerning positioning and using of spells, in real time
(wiz 8 is still the most tactically challening).

Avernum / Geneforge are indie games that actually have simple but
challenging tactical tiurn based modes.

BG games require a magicthegathering like counter the spell like
tactics..

anyway, if you're talkingabout classic crpg complexity, I'd say Wizardry
8/Wizards and Warriors/Might and Magic IX.  These 3 still have a complex
party dynamic to them.

And if you go a little farther, the Arkania series and Darklands were
pretty complex, but not completely innaccesible...Darklands... mmm such
a great concept.  or even SId's Pirates!

etc

"mtkafka" <mcu...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:3D622C88.7F5C0CBB@prodigy.net...
> freestone wilson wrote:
>
> >>
> Of recent I'd say
>
> Morrowind has the deepest character development, not the most complex.

I'm getting more and more impressed with this one.

>
> Arcanum has a nice deep tech vs magic scheme (some balance problems, not
> TOO outrageous though).

I didn't like the _feel_ of this one though. Fallout was great, but this
seems too much like it, and plays worse.

>
> Wizardry 8 is the bread and butter party management king of recent.

Yah, w8 is nice. doesn't strike me as flexible as morrowind, but pretty darn
cool.

>
> Dungeon Siege, imo, is probably the most tactically challenging (on the
> Hard setting) concerning positioning and using of spells, in real time
> (wiz 8 is still the most tactically challening).

This is probably the _least_ deep _anything_ I've played recently. I known
soccergames with more variety and deeper plotline.
> BG games require a magicthegathering like counter the spell like
> tactics..
>

jonas

freestone wilson <frees...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>what is the deepest, rpg?
>---  or even the most complicated or involved?!
>not clickfests. not linar paths. not dumbed down everythings....

Thief: The Dark Project. Not strictly speaking an RPG (i.e. no levelling
or stats) but very immersive, not clickfest, very non-linear and very
intelligent.

-- 
Lucian Wischik, Queens' College, Cambridge CB3 9ET. www.wischik.com/lu

freestone wilson <frees...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>what is the deepest, rpg?
>---  or even the most complicated or involved?!
>not clickfests. not linar paths. not dumbed down everythings....

Lucian Wischik <ljw...@cus.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
>Thief: The Dark Project. Not strictly speaking an RPG (i.e. no levelling
>or stats) but very immersive, not clickfest, very non-linear and very
>intelligent.

Though could've just as easily been called Night of the Living Dead.
Blah.

						Ross Ridge

-- 
 l/  //	  Ross Ridge -- The Great HTMU
[oo][oo]  rri...@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
-()-/()/  http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca/u/rridge/ 
 db  //	  

It's elementary, my dear "Brian H."
<bh1234...@nospam.please.ismart.net>: 

> 
> "Werner Arend" <de...@unknown.host.de> wrote in message
> news:3D62189C.4050700@unknown.host.de...
>>
>> deep = complicated game mechanics (this is a bad thing): Wizardry 8
>>
> 
> Wiz 8 is complicated? Probably it is complicated for someone.  But in

How about just complicated compared to other games?

> the beginning of the game your party is all level 1.  How complicated
> to control a level 1 party? 

Hell, even making a good level 1 party takes considerable knowledge and 
effort unless you go with the default party.

> And then there are tons of "automatic"
> options, like auto-targeting enemies, auto-retarget-single target
> spells, and auto-increase-your-skills-when-you-use-them,
> auto-notify-you-if-monsters-or-items-scatter-around.... I would say
> that the user interface is a state of art.

The UI is excellent. However, compared to other games, the mechanics are 
complicated.

-- 

Knight37

I know what you're thinking, because I've been thinking the same thing. 
Actually, I've been thinking it ever since I got here. Why oh why didn't I 
take the blue pill?
-- Cypher, "The Matrix"

rri...@calum.csclub.uwaterloo.ca (Ross Ridge) wrote in message news:<aju3ns$kp4$1...@tabloid.uwaterloo.ca>...
> freestone wilson <frees...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >what is the deepest, rpg?
> >---  or even the most complicated or involved?!
> >not clickfests. not linar paths. not dumbed down everythings....
> 
> Lucian Wischik <ljw...@cus.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
> >Thief: The Dark Project. Not strictly speaking an RPG (i.e. no levelling
> >or stats) but very immersive, not clickfest, very non-linear and very
> >intelligent.
> 
> Though could've just as easily been called Night of the Living Dead.
> Blah.
> 
> 						Ross Ridge


Darklands is probably the deepest RPG I've played.
Made by Microprose, in the... mid eighties?

"Werner Arend" <de...@unknown.host.de> wrote in message
news:3D63744F.7090400@unknown.host.de...
>
> W8 has a complicated attribute and skill system with too many
> dependencies. There are skills, attributes and spell schools that
> are nearly useless. Why have them?

Oh please.  If I play a fighter, all thieves skills & all magic is useless.
Why have them? Because they provide varieties to those players that simply
don't play *my* style.  I find every magic spell in Wiz 8 usefull, thanks to
the power level system.  Even level 1 spells like Make Wounds, Energy Blast,
Frost, Acid Spray, Mind Stab and the like will deal consistently 30+ damage
when cast in power level 7 (of course you need to pick up the right one to
cast.  You can't blame Energy Blast useless when you cast it on a fire
elemental that has fire resistance of 120.)

> And an attribute and skill
> scaling system of 1-100 doesn't make any sense. 1-20 would do
> the same for the game and is simpler and easier to manage.
>

How about they are %? I never find it I have to "manage" them because most
of the skills are increase simply because I use them.  I have never put a
single pt to my psionic and her psionic skill is now 108 at level 14.

> Not that W8 is the only one here. Attributes should be a means to an
> end. Instead I see RPGs wallowing in stats for no other purpose
> than to give the player something to think about. Well, these
> are not the things I want to think about when playing.
>

Then you can simply forget about them. Not so in most CRPGs but in Wiz 8 you
can.  Because simply your skills will advance by itself when you use them.
Hell, you can even turn off the popping messages to tell you that which
skills have been improved from the General Options page.

And for attributes, I do in a carefree way.  I assign my attributes points
simply to those which is the lowest.  As a result, my fighter type
characters have 60+ Intelligence and 60+ piety and 60+ sense.  Good thing
about Wiz 8 is every attribute is useful for something so I never find it
wasted.  For those who don't know, in Wiz 8 good intelligence means faster
skill advance through using; good piety means more stamina and less easier
to fall unconcious; good sense means improving your initiative in combat.
So my fighter type characters don't have super high strength and super high
constitution and still work well.  This implies that the attribute & skill
systems in Wiz 8 are very robust.  It also means that you don't need to
think much about them if you really don't want to.

>
> Werner
>

Werner Arend <de...@unknown.host.de> writes:

> Tactical combat? What tactical combat? You can't even more your characters
> separately - and that would be the absolute minimum in order to speak of
> tactics.

Unlike most 1st-person RPG's you are supposed to rearrange the relative
positions of your party members if it is tactically useful. I have on
accsion done that, and it is useful. I agree that it does not have the same 
level of tactics as 3rd-person combat, but that is a natural limitation of
the perspective.
 
> Otherwise, yes I agree that W8 is better that MM 6+ regarding skill and
> spell balance. But that doesn't say much.

Fair enough. But of all the RPG's I remember, Fallout seems to be the only
one that uses skills and spells, or abilities more efficiently than Wiz8.
 
> Perhaps I should elaborate: it isn't so much a complex stats and skills
> system that I object to, but the fact that everything you do has some
> impact on some number. My experience while playing W8 was that I was always
> thinking in stats rather than "in character" in a role-playing fashion. In
> general terms, you start to think "where do I want to get my characters,
> and what do I have to do to get there most efficiently". This makes playing
> the game rather mechanical. True, you can avoid it, but the game doesn't
> encourage you to. The game encourages playing-by-stats. Morrowind, MM 6 and
> 7 and W8 are all similar in this.  

Yes. This is a common limitation of the "classic" RPG. Some people enjoy
it, some don't. Morrowind is trying to get away from it, just to fall into
it again. 

> Compare this with other games like PST, BG2, Fallout etc. There, you only
> influence the numbers when you level up. You're spared having to think in
> numbers while you play and can concentrate on role-playing - and
> combat-efficient combat instead of stat-driver combat.

Well. The D&D Bioware games are in some way the pinnacle of stat
heaviness. They do a better job than many to let you ignore it, but you pay
a price for that. And I don't quite see why you can't ignore the numbers
while you're playing Wizardry or Morrowind either.

> In short, I don't like any game so far where a stat-driver style of play
> can be used. And usually, it's the more stat-heavy games that implement
> this.
> 
> So far, there are two games that stand out in my mind as good in that
> regard: PST made creative use of so far "unimportant" attributes to enhance
> roleplaying without encumbering the system with more numbers. Deus Ex
> introduced a minimal-stats system that nevertheless left most important
> options open for you.

OK. 

> You see, the problem is that after 20+ years of role-playing, I understand
> even complicated systems fast, and instantly notice the most stat-efficient
> use of the rules. When mastering PnP sessions, that's an asset, but if you
> just want to play it is hard to constantly having to work around my brain's
> PnP-master conditioning. More so if numbers are shoved at you every turn
> you take.

I wonder if there was any attempt ever to completely do away with any
stats. Your abilities change, you get better at things by practicing, but
you never get served the numbers. Weapons and other items carry intrinsic
abilities, but you never get to see them, all you can do is figure them out 
by usage. Would be an interesting concept. A game like Morrowind should be
the right starting point for this kind of thing. Just drop all the point
systems, etc, no levels, nothing. Maybe keep the titles that you hold in
the guilds, but that's it.

Regards, Hartmut "Level 3 theoretician with 384 QM-points" Schmider
-- 
        Hartmut Schmider      | Morality is a venereal disease. 
        Queen's University    | Its primary stage is called virtue; 
        --                    | its secondary stage, boredom; 
        h...@post.queensu.ca   | its tertiary stage, syphilis. (Karl Kraus)

Hartmut Schmider wrote:

> I wonder if there was any attempt ever to completely do away with any
> stats. Your abilities change, you get better at things by practicing, but
> you never get served the numbers. Weapons and other items carry intrinsic
> abilities, but you never get to see them, all you can do is figure them out
> by usage. Would be an interesting concept. A game like Morrowind should be
> the right starting point for this kind of thing. Just drop all the point
> systems, etc, no levels, nothing. Maybe keep the titles that you hold in
> the guilds, but that's it.
>
> Regards, Hartmut "Level 3 theoretician with 384 QM-points" Schmider
> --
>         Hartmut Schmider      | Morality is a venereal disease.
>         Queen's University    | Its primary stage is called virtue;
>         --                    | its secondary stage, boredom;
>         h...@post.queensu.ca   | its tertiary stage, syphilis. (Karl Krau

One recent game sorta does the Morrowind thing with just guilds alone... Gothic.
Its more roleplaying than statheavy imo, with a bit of action.  Pretty good game
once you get used to the 'consolish' controls.

etc

> Darklands is probably the deepest RPG I've played.
> Made by Microprose, in the... mid eighties?

Early nineties actually. Absolutely one of the best in my mind. 
Although the actual storyline once you got to it never really
interested me, I loved the game.  One of the few games that I've been
playing for 10 years(!)  Great character creation (peasant vs. noble)
and development.

Almost no one has played it, but The Dark Heart of Uukrul is an
incredibly deep game.  Although it seems a little simplistic at first,
it's amazing as you get into it.

Ancient Domains of Mystery (www.adom.de).  It's a roguelike game so no
real graphics, dosen't have the best character interaction or plot and
you can't control a party, but - if you can stomach those - you'll
find depth in bucketloads.  It's an awe-inspiring achievement.

-Dave.

I might almost be a tiny weeny bit late with my answer, but: Dwarf Fortress (Adventure Mode). Pretty much the best out there! too hard do explain!

On Wednesday, October 23, 2013 11:47:06 AM UTC-7, Skip...@yahoo.com wrote:
> I might almost be a tiny weeny bit late with my answer, but: Dwarf Fortress (Adventure Mode). Pretty much the best out there! too hard do explain!

Lol!  11 years later...

I just couldn't get into Dwarf Fortress...  and I've played Nethack a bit, only up to like lv 7 or so, but enough.

I'd say FO1-3, and VtM:Bloodlines, KotoR, Mass Effect 1 & 2 (not later ones), Dragon Age.  seem to have some Bio-Ware lovin on I guess. 

- Justisaur

Justisaur <just...@gmail.com> looked up from reading the entrails of
the porn spammer to utter  "The Augury is good, the signs say:

>On Wednesday, October 23, 2013 11:47:06 AM UTC-7, Skip...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> I might almost be a tiny weeny bit late with my answer, but: Dwarf Fortress (Adventure Mode). Pretty much the best out there! too hard do explain!
>
>Lol!  11 years later...
>
>I just couldn't get into Dwarf Fortress...  and I've played Nethack a bit, only up to like lv 7 or so, but enough.
>
>I'd say FO1-3, and VtM:Bloodlines, KotoR, Mass Effect 1 & 2 (not later ones), Dragon Age.  seem to have some Bio-Ware lovin on I guess. 


Oh please, there's only one right answer to this question:

Real Life.

It doesn't get any deeper or more complicated.

Xocyll

Xocyll <Xoc...@gmx.com> wrote in
news:t7ei69tbj67kbt...@4ax.com: 

> Justisaur <just...@gmail.com> looked up from reading the entrails of
> the porn spammer to utter  "The Augury is good, the signs say:
> 
>>On Wednesday, October 23, 2013 11:47:06 AM UTC-7, Skip...@yahoo.com
>>wrote: 
>>> I might almost be a tiny weeny bit late with my answer, but: Dwarf
>>> Fortress (Adventure Mode). Pretty much the best out there! too hard
>>> do explain! 
>>
>>Lol!  11 years later...
>>
>>I just couldn't get into Dwarf Fortress...  and I've played Nethack a
>>bit, only up to like lv 7 or so, but enough. 
>>
>>I'd say FO1-3, and VtM:Bloodlines, KotoR, Mass Effect 1 & 2 (not later
>>ones), Dragon Age.  seem to have some Bio-Ware lovin on I guess. 
> 
> 
> Oh please, there's only one right answer to this question:
> 
> Real Life.
> 
> It doesn't get any deeper or more complicated.
> 
> Xocyll
> 

yah, but only comes with hardcore mode, and the NPC AI really, really 
sucks.

On Sat, 26 Oct 2013 05:33:18 +0400, Dan Lingman <dlingman@rogers.com.nospamplease> wrote:

> yah, but only comes with hardcore mode, and the NPC AI really, really
> sucks

And Save system totally broken.

-- 
Andrew Rybenkov

On 10/25/2013 6:33 PM, Dan Lingman wrote:
> Xocyll <Xoc...@gmx.com> wrote in
> news:t7ei69tbj67kbt...@4ax.com:
>
>> Justisaur <just...@gmail.com> looked up from reading the entrails of
>> the porn spammer to utter  "The Augury is good, the signs say:
>>
>>> On Wednesday, October 23, 2013 11:47:06 AM UTC-7, Skip...@yahoo.com
>>> wrote:
>>>> I might almost be a tiny weeny bit late with my answer, but: Dwarf
>>>> Fortress (Adventure Mode). Pretty much the best out there! too hard
>>>> do explain!
>>>
>>> Lol!  11 years later...
>>>
>>> I just couldn't get into Dwarf Fortress...  and I've played Nethack a
>>> bit, only up to like lv 7 or so, but enough.
>>>
>>> I'd say FO1-3, and VtM:Bloodlines, KotoR, Mass Effect 1 & 2 (not later
>>> ones), Dragon Age.  seem to have some Bio-Ware lovin on I guess.
>>
>>
>> Oh please, there's only one right answer to this question:
>>
>> Real Life.
>>
>> It doesn't get any deeper or more complicated.
>>
>> Xocyll
>>
>
> yah, but only comes with hardcore mode, and the NPC AI really, really
> sucks.
>
You must be playing a different game.  I thought there were no NPCs in Life.

-- 
The 'Enterprise' crew in the 2009 Star Trek are adrenaline addicted, 
hyper-active teenagers with ADD whose Ritalin got replaced with 
methamphetamine, displaying a level of discipline that a Somali pirate 
wouldn't tolerate.

Dan Lingman <dlingman@rogers.com.nospamplease> looked up from reading
the entrails of the porn spammer to utter  "The Augury is good, the
signs say:

>Xocyll <Xoc...@gmx.com> wrote in
>news:t7ei69tbj67kbt...@4ax.com: 
>
>> Justisaur <just...@gmail.com> looked up from reading the entrails of
>> the porn spammer to utter  "The Augury is good, the signs say:
>> 
>>>On Wednesday, October 23, 2013 11:47:06 AM UTC-7, Skip...@yahoo.com
>>>wrote: 
>>>> I might almost be a tiny weeny bit late with my answer, but: Dwarf
>>>> Fortress (Adventure Mode). Pretty much the best out there! too hard
>>>> do explain! 
>>>
>>>Lol!  11 years later...
>>>
>>>I just couldn't get into Dwarf Fortress...  and I've played Nethack a
>>>bit, only up to like lv 7 or so, but enough. 
>>>
>>>I'd say FO1-3, and VtM:Bloodlines, KotoR, Mass Effect 1 & 2 (not later
>>>ones), Dragon Age.  seem to have some Bio-Ware lovin on I guess. 
>> 
>> 
>> Oh please, there's only one right answer to this question:
>> 
>> Real Life.
>> 
>> It doesn't get any deeper or more complicated.
>> 
>> Xocyll
>> 
>
>yah, but only comes with hardcore mode, and the NPC AI really, really 
>sucks.

Oh I dunno, the AI sometimes really surprises you.

The help system is totally broken though.

Xocyll

  The ancient AD&D "Gold Box" games!

On Mon, 28 Oct 2013 18:06:09 -0700 (PDT), T987654321
<qwrt...@gmail.com> wrote:

>  The ancient AD&D "Gold Box" games!

Hardly that deep or complicated, despite their use of the AD&D 2nd
Edition rules. The stories tended to be plain "kill-the-foozle" quests
and you were mostly limited to combat with little opportunity for
actual roleplaying or interaction with the world. Impressive for the
time, but still rather simplistic. Lots of fun though.

I recall that the Dark Eye games (Realms of Arkania 1-3) always
"impressed" me with their complexity, to the point where I had a hard
time enjoying the experience. Lots and lots of stats, and rules for
everything from disease to weapon breakage. The first two games were
essentially fetch quests with high focus on combat, although the third
did try to add a dollop of roleplaying and atmosphere.

T987654321 <qwrt...@gmail.com> looked up from reading the entrails of
the porn spammer to utter  "The Augury is good, the signs say:

>  The ancient AD&D "Gold Box" games!

Didn't have much "R" in them...
Hack, slash and hack some more.


For actual games, I'd nominate VTM:Bloodlines (after the fan patch.)
Deep, thoughtful, multiple paths through, multiple "classes".

Planescape: Torment would be another, although you don't really get
quite as much choice since you can't make a character, you are the
Nameless One period.

Betrayal at Krondor would be another - it's what comes when you have a
world created by an actual author and you have his input for the game
storyline.
I really wish this one would get a remake in a modern engine.
A true one for one, exact remake not a dumbed down, consolized
bastardization.

Xocyll

T987654321 <qwrt...@gmail.com> wrote:
>  The ancient AD&D "Gold Box" games!

Spalls Hurgenson  <spallsh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Hardly that deep or complicated, despite their use of the AD&D 2nd
>Edition rules. The stories tended to be plain "kill-the-foozle" quests
>and you were mostly limited to combat with little opportunity for
>actual roleplaying or interaction with the world. Impressive for the
>time, but still rather simplistic. Lots of fun though.

I think in terms of game mechanics they were actually pretty deep and
complicated.  More so than Baldur's Gate's implemention of the D&D rules
for example.  Pool of Radiance didn't have that simple of a story as I
remember it, either.

>I recall that the Dark Eye games (Realms of Arkania 1-3) always
>"impressed" me with their complexity, to the point where I had a hard
>time enjoying the experience. Lots and lots of stats, and rules for
>everything from disease to weapon breakage.

But, yah, the Reals of Arkania games really take the cake for deep and
complicated mechanics in computer RPGs.  I can't think of anything else
that comes close.

					Ross Ridge

-- 
 l/  //	  Ross Ridge -- The Great HTMU
[oo][oo]  rri...@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
-()-/()/  http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca/~rridge/ 
 db  //	  

you guys have got to read this :)  

http://gillen.cream.org/wordpress_html/assorted-essays/zangbandtkconfessions-of-a-dungeon-hack/

 ZAngbandTK (graphics and all, fear not the ASCII lol) and you can play it permadeath, savescum, or 'cheaty' like i do, and you end up with an rpg that stands up for hundreds of hours in my opinion, get as attached as you like to you character, or play a succession meat grinder.  there are quests, you can delve, collect, explore, catalog etc many paths to take any of the 100+ combinations of race and classes down to the depths. :)

for background, i started with dragon warrior 1/2, moved onto final fantasy 2 (best game ever imho -though linear), mechwarrior mercenaries, the fallout games, then i found morrowind which seemed to want only for random generation (and...well melee viability but i play magic users usually, lol) then I modded morrowind to hell and back, heh.  

oblivion(wtf mage university lockouts? >_<  and you cant fly, lame), 

baldurs gate (the whole line of those games really) though admittedly, i enjoyed trying to solo character play them more than the story/limits of dnd ruleset etc.  

i also played the disgaea playstation games, and most titles by nippon ichi for their nearly bottomless leveling, though after awhile it gets boring.

(lots of others, mmo's etc.)

try zangbandTK if you havent, and if you like it also Furyband (gold version iirc)


what i want, and keep hoping to find, is a game that has the open space of minecraft(if done right)  and its ability to change your environment, 

the endless growth possibilities of nippon ichi's leveling cap of 9999 o-O  (though, it should be infinite) and the freedom to make my own story, not follow a path.  ie, leveling that can take you from a wooden pickaxe to being able to crush a star in the palm of your hand.

generate a world with insane possibilities (true RNG administration), where it can be *anything!* and rather than a story, give me an origin, and let me build/destroy/explore...etc etc.

as far as multiplayer? i agree with the above ppl who find serious flaws in IRL programming/dialog/AI etc,  though, the save function does work, my game is backed up on an eternal server :D

anyway, keep dreaming guys.  :)


"... and damned be him that first cries 'hold, enough!"  (or 'first!' or 'necro')