🚀 go-pugleaf

>So, am I dreaming, or will DOOM ever grace my mac's screen?

Perhaps when MACs get a larger installed base, and a real joystick port 
instead of a makshift ADB port solution, REAL and AFFORDABLE wavetable 
synthesis, and 16 bit sound on an affordable machine, then ID would 
probably support it.

In article <HAGSTROM.9...@al-burro.mit.edu> hags...@athena.mit.edu (Paul A Hagstrom) writes:
>Subject: Re: Any plans of porting DOOM to Mac?
>From: hags...@athena.mit.edu (Paul A Hagstrom)
>Date: 6 Jan 1994 16:11:57 GMT

>wo...@gibbs.oit.unc.edu (Der Walvater) writes:

>>Perhaps when MACs get a larger installed base, and a real joystick port 
>>instead of a makshift ADB port solution, REAL and AFFORDABLE wavetable 
>>synthesis, and 16 bit sound on an affordable machine, then ID would 
>>probably support it.

>I really doubt sound is a big issue; after all, you can play DOOM on a PC
>without a soundcard.  (And with a PC, there are so many soundcards you have
>to try to support!)  And even if the Mac does lack what you would call "Real
>and Affordable wavetable synthesis," (which I don't believe), its out-of-the-
>factory sound configuration is _certainly_ adequate to reproduce the awful
>out-of-the-factory sound of DOOM on a PC.

>On top of that, there is a perfectly good play mode on PC DOOM for either
>keyboard only or mouse+keyboard.  Why is the joystick an issue?  It sounds
>to me like you were more interested in flaming the Mac generally than being
>helpful.

>I'd be interested in seeing a DOOM port to the Mac as well.. what is the
>official standpoint on this?  (There's something vaguely DOOM-like, or
>Wolf3D-like called "Pathways into Darkness", but from what I gather it looks
>pretty primitive when compared to DOOM)

> -Paul Hagstrom
>  hags...@mit.edu

>(PS- sorry about the funny followup.. I didn't have the original message to
> respond to for some reason.  If you didn't notice, wonderful).

Seems to me like there was a little PC flaming in there for you to gripe too 
loud abut Mac flaming...  Anyway, I suspect that the reason that Doom won't be 
ported to the Mac is the same reason it wasn't written for Windows...  Also, 
for all of Apple's marketing brilliance, the Mac is still a tiny fraction of 
the PC market (around 15% last I heard) and so it seems to also be a question 
of demand...  I'd like to see an OS/2 version of Doom but I'm not holding my 
breath.

In article <bskendigC...@netcom.com> bske...@netcom.com (Brian Kendig) writes:
>Subject: Re: Any plans of porting DOOM to Mac?
>From: bske...@netcom.com (Brian Kendig)
>Date: Thu, 6 Jan 1994 17:13:37 GMT

(copious flaming deleted)

>But seriously... have you sought counselling for your fear of Apple
>products?

>-- 
>_/_/_/  Brian Kendig                              Je ne suis fait comme aucun
>/_/_/  bske...@netcom.com                 de ceux que j'ai vus; j'ose croire
>_/_/                             n'etre fait comme aucun de ceux qui existent.
>  /  Be insatiably curious.   Si je ne vaux pas mieux, au moins je suis autre.
> /     Ask "why" a lot.                                           -- Rousseau


Brian, I suspect it isn't fear so much as contempt...   (hastily climbs into 
asbestos body armour)

wo...@gibbs.oit.unc.edu (Der Walvater) writes:

>>So, am I dreaming, or will DOOM ever grace my mac's screen?

>Perhaps when MACs get a larger installed base, and a real joystick port 
>instead of a makshift ADB port solution, REAL and AFFORDABLE wavetable 
>synthesis, and 16 bit sound on an affordable machine, then ID would 
>probably support it.

I'm so glad you're here to speak for the developers; I'm sure they'd be
thrilled to hear you making such interesting noises on their behalf...

jacob rose..........................@csugrad.cs.vt.edu

e   v   o   l   u   t   i   o   n    i  s    b   e   a   u   t   i   f   u   l

224 payne hall virginia tech blacksburg virginia 24060-0008.......703/232-5955

wo...@gibbs.oit.unc.edu (Der Walvater) writes:

>Perhaps when MACs get a larger installed base, and a real joystick port 
>instead of a makshift ADB port solution, REAL and AFFORDABLE wavetable 
>synthesis, and 16 bit sound on an affordable machine, then ID would 
>probably support it.

I really doubt sound is a big issue; after all, you can play DOOM on a PC
without a soundcard.  (And with a PC, there are so many soundcards you have
to try to support!)  And even if the Mac does lack what you would call "Real
and Affordable wavetable synthesis," (which I don't believe), its out-of-the-
factory sound configuration is _certainly_ adequate to reproduce the awful
out-of-the-factory sound of DOOM on a PC.

On top of that, there is a perfectly good play mode on PC DOOM for either
keyboard only or mouse+keyboard.  Why is the joystick an issue?  It sounds
to me like you were more interested in flaming the Mac generally than being
helpful.

I'd be interested in seeing a DOOM port to the Mac as well.. what is the
official standpoint on this?  (There's something vaguely DOOM-like, or
Wolf3D-like called "Pathways into Darkness", but from what I gather it looks
pretty primitive when compared to DOOM)

 -Paul Hagstrom
  hags...@mit.edu

(PS- sorry about the funny followup.. I didn't have the original message to
 respond to for some reason.  If you didn't notice, wonderful).

wo...@gibbs.oit.unc.edu (Der Walvater) writes:
>
>Perhaps when MACs get a larger installed base,

Umm, Macintoshes are selling like hotcakes these days...

>and a real joystick port instead of a makshift ADB port solution,

Makeshift?  You plug input devices into the ADB port, and you chain them
together.  ADB was *made* for things like joysticks.  It's certainly better
than PC's, where you have one port for the keyboard, one for the mouse, and
one for the joystick -- and the latter two don't even necessarily come
standard with your system!

>REAL and AFFORDABLE wavetable synthesis,

Played with the Sound Manager yet?  It's real, it's affordable, and it's
built into every Macintosh sold.  Does DOOM even make any sound at all on a
PC without a sound card?

>and 16 bit sound on an affordable machine,

All Macintoshes sold these days have 16-bit sound built-in.

>then ID would probably support it.

Sounds like a Macintosh version is right around the corner, then!  ;-)

But seriously... have you sought counselling for your fear of Apple
products?

-- 
_/_/_/  Brian Kendig                              Je ne suis fait comme aucun
/_/_/  bske...@netcom.com                 de ceux que j'ai vus; j'ose croire
_/_/                             n'etre fait comme aucun de ceux qui existent.
  /  Be insatiably curious.   Si je ne vaux pas mieux, au moins je suis autre.
 /     Ask "why" a lot.                                           -- Rousseau

>>>>> jo...@wonderware.com (Jonathan Gwynne) writes:

> Brian, I suspect it isn't fear so much as contempt...

Liberally salted with ignorance, evidently.  To throw in a bit of armchair
psychoanalysis, I suspect that Mr. Walvater feels insecure about his choice
of a PC, and therefore needs to respond to mentions of Macintosh machines
with a knee-jerk dismissal.  Ah, xenophobia...

To respond to the original poster, I suspect that the reason there are few
real-time action games available for the Mac is the disastrous efficiency
of windowing systems.  On the PC, you address the hardware directly to
achieve speed.  On the Mac, doing so is strongly discouraged, so as to
maintain compatibility through OS and hardware changes.  Any bets on how
much Mac software that ran on a Mac 512 will still run on one of the new
PowerPC Macs?

Then again, there is a NeXTstep version, isn't there?  Hmm.

Jason

Actually, Pathways into Darkness is similar to Wolf3D and Doom, but it sorta
follows a different flow... you end up having skills in weapons, which affects
how much damage you do when you hit... it is also item based, such that there
are notes lying around, potions to be used later, even treasure, although I'm
not sure quite why you want/need it... and crystals, which do various things,
such as one which is supposed to let you talk to the dead [there are several
corpses lying around..] it also has an automapping system, which shows all the
walls and any important immoveable objects, such as the aforementioned
corpses... *shrug* It's pretty nice, but it doesn't quite get the endorphins
pumping like the first time you find the gateway on the secret level in the
first episode.... however, you can go in between the physical levels of the
games in PiD, as there are ladders in between... I have only played the demo,
which is all of three levels, but there are a few secret doors, and no doubt
items found on one level to be used on another...

I guess the best way to describe it is to say that it's more of an adventure
game, while Doom is more of an action game, although obviously that's not all
there is to either...

It's good. Perhaps not as good as Doom, but it seems better than Wolf3D.. 

Now, as to whether it would be feasible to port Doom to the Mac, well,
that's another story... but since it has roots in NeXTstep... 

Spencer "I gotta get around to ordering the full Doom.." Olson
ols...@elof.iit.edu

In article <jong.3....@wonderware.com> jo...@wonderware.com (Jonathan Gwynne) writes:

>Seems to me like there was a little PC flaming in there for you to gripe too 
>loud abut Mac flaming...  Anyway, I suspect that the reason that Doom won't be 
>ported to the Mac is the same reason it wasn't written for Windows...  Also, 
>for all of Apple's marketing brilliance, the Mac is still a tiny fraction of 
>the PC market (around 15% last I heard) and so it seems to also be a question 
>of demand...  I'd like to see an OS/2 version of Doom but I'm not holding my 
>breath.

Yeah, reaction I guess.. sorry about that.  As for the OS/2 version, the DOS
version of DOOM can be run under OS/2 (I've done so myself).  Check the
README.EXE file for instructions and parameters for setting it up on the OS/2
desktop..
 
 -Paul Hagstrom
  hags...@mit.edu

In article <bskendigC...@netcom.com>,
>Umm, Macintoshes are selling like hotcakes these days...

So is OS/2. Relatively speaking, Macs have a long way to go number wise.

>Makeshift?  You plug input devices into the ADB port, and you chain them
>together.  ADB was *made* for things like joysticks.  It's certainly better
>than PC's, where you have one port for the keyboard, one for the mouse, and
>one for the joystick -- and the latter two don't even necessarily come
>standard with your system!

True, the latter two MAY NOT come with your system, but I've never seen a 
PC advertised without a joystick or serial port. Besides, joystick ports 
comes standard with all sounboards.

ADBs were not MADE for things like joysticks--the Apple II series of 
joystick ports were MADE for joysticks. Apple did not want game ports for 
the reason that they didn't want MACs to be thought of as game machines.

>>REAL and AFFORDABLE wavetable synthesis,
>
>Played with the Sound Manager yet?  It's real, it's affordable, and it's
>built into every Macintosh sold.  Does DOOM even make any sound at all on a
>PC without a sound card?

... and it's NOT wavetable!!! 
Let me repeat, AFFORDABLE WAVETABLE SYNTHESIS. Try getting 32 channel 
wavetable for $120 on a Mac--can't be done, period. For the PC, just buy 
a GUS. Wavetable on the Mac still remains in the realm of high-end audio 
editing.

>>and 16 bit sound on an affordable machine,
>
>All Macintoshes sold these days have 16-bit sound built-in.

You're telling me the Color Classic has 16 bit sound built-in? 

>>then ID would probably support it.
>
>Sounds like a Macintosh version is right around the corner, then!  ;-)

Considering that there are more 16 bit PC sound boards out there than 
MACs, I doubt it.

>But seriously... have you sought counselling for your fear of Apple
>products?

Fear? When PC users outnumber Mac users 10 to 1?

Let's face it, while the Macs are VERY INNOVATIVE computers, the 
innovations and technology on the Macs are driven by USABILITY, while PC 
technology is pretty much driven by games.

A $120 GUS would beat any Mac, excluding maybe the AV lines, for games. 
You can't get a 32 bit wavetable CD-quality card for that price on the Macs.

Macs still lack the wide variety of analog and digital controllers that 
the PCs have. The only worthwhile controller available for the MAC that 
I've seen is the Gravis Gamepad--even then, most games doesn't support it.

Video--while Macs have much better internal support via Quick Draw, it 
doesn't really matter when it comes to games. Let's face it, Quick Draw 
is NOT meant for fast-action games; it's not an advantage at all.

And lastly, you can't take over the whole computer under the Mac, the 
operating system is always there--on a PC running DOS, you can easily 
ignore what little there is in operating system and manipulate the 
hardware to your heart's content. While this isn't exactly good for 
normal apps, it's exactly the type of things you want to be able to do 
for games.

Maybe it's you that needs to see a shrink; do you have a deep fear that 
your Mac isn't a complete computer if it isn't a good game machine?

Just as a reminder, SGI, Sun, HP, RS/6000, would all make crappy game 
machines--they weren't designed for that purpose!

ja...@cygnus.com (Jason Merrill) writes:
>Then again, there is a NeXTstep version, isn't there?  Hmm.

Under NeXTstep 3.0 and up, though, you can display directly to video memory
within a window; they did this so that emulators (Mac, PC) would have fast
video updates.  The NeXT is also one of those cool things that everybody
eventually has to develop something on. :)

jacob rose..........................@csugrad.cs.vt.edu

e   v   o   l   u   t   i   o   n    i  s    b   e   a   u   t   i   f   u   l

224 payne hall virginia tech blacksburg virginia 24060-0008.......703/232-5955

wo...@gibbs.oit.unc.edu (Der Walvater) writes:
>Just as a reminder, SGI, Sun, HP, RS/6000, would all make crappy game 
>machines--they weren't designed for that purpose!

You obviously haven't played games on an SGI... :)

jacob rose..........................@csugrad.cs.vt.edu

e   v   o   l   u   t   i   o   n    i  s    b   e   a   u   t   i   f   u   l

224 payne hall virginia tech blacksburg virginia 24060-0008.......703/232-5955

In article <2gkmhc$m...@canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca> umwi...@cc.umanitoba.ca (Kerry Gordon Peter Williams) writes:


>>for all of Apple's marketing brilliance, the Mac is still a tiny fraction of 
>>the PC market (around 15% last I heard) and so it seems to also be a question 
>**              ^^^^^^^^^^^ Mac flame **


How is that a flame?  It is either true or it isn't.  If you wish to dispute 
my figures then go ahead...

In <jong.3....@wonderware.com> jo...@wonderware.com (Jonathan Gwynne) writes:

>In article <HAGSTROM.9...@al-burro.mit.edu> hags...@athena.mit.edu (Paul A Hagstrom) writes:
>>Subject: Re: Any plans of porting DOOM to Mac?
>>From: hags...@athena.mit.edu (Paul A Hagstrom)
>>Date: 6 Jan 1994 16:11:57 GMT

>>wo...@gibbs.oit.unc.edu (Der Walvater) writes:

>>> *Mac flame deleted*

>> * PC flame deleted *

>Seems to me like there was a little PC flaming in there for you to gripe too 
>loud abut Mac flaming...  Anyway, I suspect that the reason that Doom won't be 
>ported to the Mac is the same reason it wasn't written for Windows...  Also, 
>for all of Apple's marketing brilliance, the Mac is still a tiny fraction of 
>the PC market (around 15% last I heard) and so it seems to also be a question 
**		^^^^^^^^^^^ Mac flame **
>of demand...  I'd like to see an OS/2 version of Doom but I'm not holding my 
>breath.

What with the PC and Mac flame and counter flame? Perhaps we should set up
a newsgroup "alt.Hack.Mac.Bash.IBM" so us mac guys can unleash a full
salvo of facts, figures, here-say, etc against the rest of the world
while you poor PC guys reformat your hard drives, restart after a crash,
realize that the $80 program you bought doesn't run without a $160
soundcard, quit from Windoze to run your HD compactor, etc. etc. 

(This should cause an uproar!!)

Kerry.

I wish IBM! --I wish I Bought a Mac!
		     ^ ^        ^

In <2gkmhc$m...@canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca> umwi...@cc.umanitoba.ca (Kerry Gordon Peter Williams) writes:

>What with the PC and Mac flame and counter flame? Perhaps we should set up
>a newsgroup "alt.Hack.Mac.Bash.IBM" so us mac guys can unleash a full
>salvo of facts, figures, here-say, etc against the rest of the world
>while you poor PC guys reformat your hard drives, restart after a crash,
>realize that the $80 program you bought doesn't run without a $160
>soundcard, quit from Windoze to run your HD compactor, etc. etc. 

>(This should cause an uproar!!)

>Kerry.

>I wish IBM! --I wish I Bought a Mac!
>		     ^ ^        ^

Get with it man!  I'd rather buy an Amiga for half the price and emulate a
MAC with better speed (plus a _real_ multitasking OS).  Go to some Amiga
groups and post to Jim Drew about how good (IE kludge) a Mac is. :>

I personally own a PC, with a Gus soundcard (32 channels, 16-bit) ...
which is quite a bit better than a Mac with lousy 8-bit sound.  And not to
mention the nose-bleed Apple prices.  And Windoze... it's about as real of
an OS as System 7.

All CompSci people know Mac's are for computer novices.  No one would do
anything serious on a Mac.  It's "friendly" OS is good for beginners...
and that's all.


|\  /\ |   Siu-Fung Lee                            University of Manitoba
| \/  \|                                           umle...@cc.umanitoba.ca
Many net-roles (see previous sigs).  Power armour theorist.
"Death is a release from pain and humiliation.  So the ante's been raised.
And now it's torture... c - o - m - p - s - c - i.  Torture.  Hi-tech
torture.  As the technocrats say, it's 'functional'..."

In article <2gj3f4$b...@bigblue.oit.unc.edu> wo...@gibbs.oit.unc.edu (Der Walvater) writes:

> A $120 GUS would beat any Mac, excluding maybe the AV lines, for games. 
> You can't get a 32 bit wavetable CD-quality card for that price on the Macs.
> [...]
> Video--while Macs have much better internal support via Quick Draw, it 
> doesn't really matter when it comes to games. Let's face it, Quick Draw 
> is NOT meant for fast-action games; it's not an advantage at all.
>
> And lastly, you can't take over the whole computer under the Mac, the 
> operating system is always there

You know, sure, that's fine.  All I want to know is if DOOM will ever run on
a Mac platform.  The sound need not be as good as the moderately good PC's, and
I wouldn't even mind if it _did_ take over the machine (you aren't under any
obligation to not take over the machine, it's just heavily frowned upon and it
makes your product less likely to be compatible with future machines).  Do
direct screen writes.  Have less than optimal sound.  Require a 68030 or
better.  Whatever the solution, I still would like to hear the official ID
opinion.. (even though it's probably just "we haven't made plans for it, but
we wouldn't rule it out eventually").

I'm sure this post will be lost in the Mac vs. IBMness that this thread has
turned into anyway (perhaps in a slight bit my fault), but the main question
still hasn't been answered..

 -Paul Hagstrom
  hags...@mit.edu

In article <2gkqg8$q...@canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca>, umle...@cc.umanitoba.ca (Siu-fung Lee) writes:
>In <2gkmhc$m...@canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca> umwi...@cc.umanitoba.ca (Kerry Gordon Peter Williams) writes:
>
>> [misc. stuff deleted]
>
>>I wish IBM! --I wish I Bought a Mac!
>>		     ^ ^        ^
>  [more stuff deleted]
>
>All CompSci people know Mac's are for computer novices.  No one would do
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>anything serious on a Mac.  It's "friendly" OS is good for beginners...
>and that's all.

You're missing the entire point.  If you'd take a look around once in a while,
you'd notice that Macs are being used for high-end graphics and graphics
output.  Like someone said before, it's not a game system.  Macs are BUILT for
graphics.  That's why you only need 1 meg of VRAM on some quadras to get 24 bit
color.  Hell, on my machine, I only needed an extra 256K of VRAM (for a total
of 512K) to get 16 bit color.  IBM PC's are now getting into the graphics area
just as much as macs, and programs such as photoshop are now being ported to
IBM.  Why do you think these programs started on the mac in the first place? 
If you still think Mac's are for computer novices, try telling that to the
thousands of graphic design and illustration studios that use macs to complete
a majority of thier work.  Face it, IBM's and Mac's were built for two
different purposes.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Patrick Gray (PEG1485)                       Rochester Institute of Technology
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

umle...@cc.umanitoba.ca (Siu-fung Lee) writes:
>All CompSci people know Mac's are for computer novices.  No one would do
>anything serious on a Mac.  It's "friendly" OS is good for beginners...
>and that's all.

Wrong, but it's certainly not the end of user-friendliness, simply a step
along the way.

jacob rose..........................@csugrad.cs.vt.edu

e   v   o   l   u   t   i   o   n    i  s    b   e   a   u   t   i   f   u   l

224 payne hall virginia tech blacksburg virginia 24060-0008.......703/232-5955

wo...@gibbs.oit.unc.edu (Der Walvater) writes:
 >Just as a reminder, SGI, Sun, HP, RS/6000, would all make crappy game 
 >machines--they weren't designed for that purpose!

Neither was the PC, but look what you can do with it with a fast CPU, display
and sound board.  I've seen some real nice demos on Suns, SGIs and HPs as
well.

Chris

--
Chris Barrett                   E-Mail: bar...@kodak.com
Clinical Diagnostics Division - Eastman Kodak Company Inc., Rochester, NY
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
The views expressed herein do not reflect those of Eastman Kodak Company Inc.

Chris Barrett (17263) (bar...@clpd.Kodak.Com) wrote:
: wo...@gibbs.oit.unc.edu (Der Walvater) writes:
:  >Just as a reminder, SGI, Sun, HP, RS/6000, would all make crappy game 
:  >machines--they weren't designed for that purpose!

Oh Contrare Mon Frare...

	Until you have sat in front of a Silicon Graphics ONYX
with a Reality Engine installed, 1GB of RAM and 16GB of DISK
online, stared into the 20" Color Monitor (with resolution that
is specified with scientific notation :-) ) and flown (not played)
the SGI flight simulator you have not maxed the computer based
gaming experience.

	And thats ONLY 2-D! Try strapping on a set of gloves
and image goggles and fly the damn thing in 3-D....
		(You'd wet yourself...)

Never knock a REAL machine...

Ren Hoek
Purebred Asthmahound Chiuaua
devi...@cerf.net

"Stimpy, you Eediot!!"

If a port were done to the Mac the result would probably be similar to pathways
of darkness in that to have a decent amout of speed you need to leave your view
window quite small.
I assume that this is a result of macs only having one graphics resolution.
So that in order to write a full screen action game you would have to write to somewhere around two to three times the amount of pixels that doom writes to on
a pc. 
This limit in variability of resolution makes the view size of any action game
on a mac incredibly limited. Don't get me wrong, I like macs, They just don't 
seem incredibly feasible for fast games.

If any of this information is incorrect. Correct me.

Ren Hoek (devi...@nic.cerf.net) wrote:
: Chris Barrett (17263) (bar...@clpd.Kodak.Com) wrote:
: : wo...@gibbs.oit.unc.edu (Der Walvater) writes:
: :  >Just as a reminder, SGI, Sun, HP, RS/6000, would all make crappy game 
: :  >machines--they weren't designed for that purpose!

: Oh Contrare Mon Frare...

: 	Until you have sat in front of a Silicon Graphics ONYX
: with a Reality Engine installed, 1GB of RAM and 16GB of DISK
: online, stared into the 20" Color Monitor (with resolution that
: is specified with scientific notation :-) ) and flown (not played)
: the SGI flight simulator you have not maxed the computer based
: gaming experience.

: 	And thats ONLY 2-D! Try strapping on a set of gloves
: and image goggles and fly the damn thing in 3-D....
: 		(You'd wet yourself...)

: Never knock a REAL machine...

: Ren Hoek
: Purebred Asthmahound Chiuaua
: devi...@cerf.net

: "Stimpy, you Eediot!!"

 The sad part about this whole thread is.... so far I haven't been able 
to find DOOM for my sgi. Why? Because it doesn't exist! Or does it? If 
anyone knows anything about that possibility please e-mail. 
 By the way, devildog is right- SGIs rule dominion when it comes to 
graphics. Unfortunately, I haven't found too many good games for them. 
(Not that I have much time to play between building animations anyway...)

 thu...@netcom.com