🚀 go-pugleaf

"Philippe BRUNO" <philipp...@skynet.be> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:3A2416FB.2BB2@skynet.be...
> Subject: [tycoon] TTo and TTD ? : just worth Z.E.R.O., definitely !!!!
>          [WAS : I want a patch... to close a STUPID opened door...!!!]
>
>          Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 17:27:25 +0100
>          From: Philippe BRUNO <philipp...@skynet.be>
>     Reply-To: tyc...@egroups.com
> Organization: Hardware Technology
>           To: tyc...@egroups.com
>
>
(huge rant snipped)


Damn, don't get so wound up about it. If you think you can do better prove
it and program an improved TT. Also, do you think you can accomplish
anything by shouting? Remember that back then, multiplayer over a network
was a very rare feature and that in TT it's just put in as a nice addon, but
wasn't given much thought.

Also, they're your kids, I assume you could get them to play fair if you ask
them (but not by shouting like in your post ;-)

By the way, I'm missing constructive criticism in your post. How would it be
better? I mean, how would you implement such a cheating block? Very nice,
everybody can go around shouting "that game sucks", "what a waste of money",
but if you don't even have an idea how you could change that, shut up.
By the way, I think you're a bit late complaining about this. You could've
done so when TTO came out and maybe written Chris a friendly e-mail and it
could have been improved in TTD?

Oh and just so you know, nobody is forcing you to play TT... Burn it, stick
it to a rocket and launch it into outer space or whatever. It's yours :)

Phillip

> Phillip Jordan wrote:
> 

> Damn, don't get so wound up about it.


> If you think you can do better prove it and program an improved TT.


Ah, yep, the very "nice" sentence of 21st century : If you're not
satisfied, go away or do better...!!!

Some Braindead reflexion...

WHY is there so many people in a project ?

Let me (short) answer for you : some have ideas, some know how to
program.


I am NOT a programmer.

Is that a "good enough" reason for not having ideas or complaints...??

 .at = Austria, right... ?



> Remember that back then,


Back  * WHEN *  ???

TTo and TTd are DOS softwares (I suppose you know that already...)

I used DOS softwares over a network in 1987, with Concurrent PC-DOS,
and, after that, with other "DOS-networking" software such as Concurrent
DOS 386.

Were you born, in 1987 ?



> multiplayer over a network


A  "Network"...???

Two computers tied together with a lousy rs-232 or // connection is
a.... "network"...????



> was a very rare feature and that in TT it's just put in as a nice
> addon, but wasn't given much thought.


Better would have been not to do it , then...!!!

Instead of doing things wrong, it's better not to do it, and wait for
them to be 100 % perfect before launching them...


BY THE WAY, it's so long time from TTo realease that it left enough
time-room for improvement(s)...!!!




 
> Also, they're your kids, I assume you could get them to play fair if
> you ask them (but not by shouting like in your post ;-)


Yes, of course.

But pls read my post from start till the end.

Problem is NOT to ask them to "play fairly". Problem is that I HAVE TO
ask them.

THE GAME, by itself , is totally badly done. Period.


 
> By the way, I'm missing constructive criticism in your post.

You haven't read it, then...


> How would it be better ?
> I mean, how would you implement such a cheating block ?

I gave the idea in the post.

There are at least 7 to 10 people that are making patches for TTo or
TTd.

They take my idea(s) and make the patch.

Still need some more "constructive criticism"...???



> Very nice, everybody can go around shouting "that game sucks",


I think there are not too many that complaint about that...

Satisifed with mediocre software... : ????



> "what a waste of money", but if you don't even have an idea how you
> could change that, shut up.


Shut uip yourself : the idea (one of them at least) was in the post.

Lear to read before you answer...

(Timestamps between my post and yours just prove you don't even took
time to read ALL my post...)



> By the way, I think you're a bit late complaining about this.
> You could've done so when TTO came out and maybe written Chris a
> friendly e-mail and it could have been improved in TTD ?

Just one suggestion : Have you *ever* think that I was not waiting at
the counter of a computer shop, just waiting for the release of that
game...????

I just discovered it lately.

Is THAT a problem...???

It is NEVER too late to say "hey, something goes wrong".


 
> Oh and just so you know, nobody is forcing you to play TT... Burn it,
> stick it to a rocket and launch it into outer space or whatever. It's
> yours :)


Yep, for sure.

Same kind of "pure quality" argument as in the beginning : "you're not
satisfied ?  --  shut up and go away".


Jorg Heider's ravages, for sure...


Open your mind boy.


Philippe BRUNO.

"Philippe BRUNO" <philipp...@skynet.be> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:3A24206A.381D@skynet.be...
> > Phillip Jordan wrote:
> >
>
> > Damn, don't get so wound up about it.
>
>
> > If you think you can do better prove it and program an improved TT.
>
>
> Ah, yep, the very "nice" sentence of 21st century : If you're not
> satisfied, go away or do better...!!!

Well, shouting at the top of your vioce won't get you very far. (Unless
you're a flamewar masochist ;-)

> Some Braindead reflexion...
>
> WHY is there so many people in a project ?
>
> Let me (short) answer for you : some have ideas, some know how to
> program.
>
>
> I am NOT a programmer.
>
> Is that a "good enough" reason for not having ideas or complaints...??

You're having complaints, not ideas. That makes a big difference.

>  .at = Austria, right... ?

Yes but what does that have to do with it.

> > Remember that back then,
>
>
> Back  * WHEN *  ???
>
> TTo and TTd are DOS softwares (I suppose you know that already...)
>
> I used DOS softwares over a network in 1987, with Concurrent PC-DOS,
> and, after that, with other "DOS-networking" software such as Concurrent
> DOS 386.

I was talking about GAMES. Especially strategy games.

> Were you born, in 1987 ?

Yes.

> > multiplayer over a network
>
>
> A  "Network"...???
>
> Two computers tied together with a lousy rs-232 or // connection is
> a.... "network"...????

Technically speaking it is, I'm afraid.

> > was a very rare feature and that in TT it's just put in as a nice
> > addon, but wasn't given much thought.
>
>
> Better would have been not to do it , then...!!!

You say you'd be happier if TT had no Multiplayer support at all?

> Instead of doing things wrong, it's better not to do it, and wait for
> them to be 100 % perfect before launching them...

Have you ever heard of "deadlines", "publishers" and the like?

> BY THE WAY, it's so long time from TTo realease that it left enough
> time-room for improvement(s)...!!!

Uh, might be a language problem here but I don't get that sentence

> > Also, they're your kids, I assume you could get them to play fair if
> > you ask them (but not by shouting like in your post ;-)
>
>
> Yes, of course.
>
> But pls read my post from start till the end.

I did.

> Problem is NOT to ask them to "play fairly". Problem is that I HAVE TO
> ask them.
>
> THE GAME, by itself , is totally badly done. Period.

By stating that, what are you accomplishing?

> > By the way, I'm missing constructive criticism in your post.
>
> You haven't read it, then...

Well, surprise, surprise, I have!

> > How would it be better ?
> > I mean, how would you implement such a cheating block ?
>
> I gave the idea in the post.

Quote please.

> There are at least 7 to 10 people that are making patches for TTo or
> TTd.
>
> They take my idea(s) and make the patch.

Which ideas? Again, please quote.

> Still need some more "constructive criticism"...???

Yes please. That is by no means constructive criticism. Basically what
you're saying is: "OK, this is bad, I don't like it. I have no idea how to
make it better but hay you guys, I think making a patch could fix this, so
I'm expecting that you can fix this instantly."

I have yet to read a suggestion about HOW to improve the situation.

> > Very nice, everybody can go around shouting "that game sucks",
>
> I think there are not too many that complaint about that...

About what?

> Satisifed with mediocre software... : ????

Well, what might be mediocre to you might be great for me. So I can say no
to that.

> > "what a waste of money", but if you don't even have an idea how you
> > could change that, shut up.
>
>
> Shut uip yourself : the idea (one of them at least) was in the post.

Couldn't find it

> Lear to read before you answer...

Well, I did. Also, you could try not repeating yourself. Bringing up the
same arguments again and again doesn't make them any truer, better or
whatever else.

> (Timestamps between my post and yours just prove you don't even took
> time to read ALL my post...)

I might be a fast reader.

> > By the way, I think you're a bit late complaining about this.
> > You could've done so when TTO came out and maybe written Chris a
> > friendly e-mail and it could have been improved in TTD ?
>
> Just one suggestion : Have you *ever* think that I was not waiting at
> the counter of a computer shop, just waiting for the release of that
> game...????

Of course, but you said you had it more than 4 years ago. Also, I can go
raging about the bugs in Windows 3.1. What good would that do?

> I just discovered it lately.
>
> Is THAT a problem...???
>
> It is NEVER too late to say "hey, something goes wrong".

In the software industry, it usually doesn't help much, anyway.

> > Oh and just so you know, nobody is forcing you to play TT... Burn it,
> > stick it to a rocket and launch it into outer space or whatever. It's
> > yours :)
>
> Yep, for sure.
>
> Same kind of "pure quality" argument as in the beginning : "you're not
> satisfied ?  --  shut up and go away".

Well, it's not the programmer's problem if you don't like the program. You
(probably) paid for it and that's what counts, really. If you didn't pay for
it you have no right complaining anyway.

> Jorg Heider's ravages, for sure...

I was taking this pretty humorously until now. But what you're doing is
provoking an all-out flame war.
1) What do politics have to do with this?
2) What gave you the idea to that useless remark?
3) What makes you believe that I am one of his followers?
4) ARE YOU CALLING ME EXREME RIGHT? IF SO, I DEMAND AN EXPLANATION.

> Open your mind boy.

I'd *love* to know what you exactly are trying to say with that sentence.

Happy flaming

Phillip

"Philippe BRUNO" <philipp...@skynet.be> wrote in message
news:3A24206A.381D@skynet.be...
<cuts whine whine whine>
> Same kind of "pure quality" argument as in the beginning : "you're not
> satisfied ?  --  shut up and go away".
>
>
> Jorg Heider's ravages, for sure...
>
>
> Open your mind boy.
>
>
> Philippe BRUNO.

Instead of buying games that I'm sure you won't like, you should invest in
some good litterature:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0521313554/qid=975453003/sr=1-2/104-3
698797-5809531

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/189194407X/o/qid=975453088/sr=8-3/ref
=aps_sr_b_1_5/104-3698797-5809531

Happy reading... :o)

Vincent (4...@iname.com)

Just as I expected, Philippe BRUNO <philipp...@skynet.be> came up
with this:

>WHY is there so many people in a project ?

You know, Chris Sawyer did programmg (all of it AFAICaR) and Simon
Foster did the graphics, all of it. Most of the "production-team" for
these games are QA people and such.

>> multiplayer over a network
>
>
>A  "Network"...???
>
>Two computers tied together with a lousy rs-232 or // connection is
>a.... "network"...????

AFAIK, a "network" is two or more things tied together ion some
fashion. In computer-terminology it happens to be two or more
computers connected to each other so they can intercommunicate.

>> was a very rare feature and that in TT it's just put in as a nice
>> addon, but wasn't given much thought.
>
>Better would have been not to do it , then...!!!
>
>Instead of doing things wrong, it's better not to do it, and wait for
>them to be 100 % perfect before launching them...
>
>
>BY THE WAY, it's so long time from TTo realease that it left enough
>time-room for improvement(s)...!!!

Have you tried TTO and then TTD just after? Do you know how much
better the game got? You know how many bugs were fixed? You know how
many cheat-exploits were stopped?
And do you know that Chris Sawyer is working on "a ne game"? (No-one
know much about it!)

>> Also, they're your kids, I assume you could get them to play fair if
>> you ask them (but not by shouting like in your post ;-)
>
>Yes, of course.
>
>But pls read my post from start till the end.
>
>Problem is NOT to ask them to "play fairly". Problem is that I HAVE TO
>ask them.
>
>THE GAME, by itself , is totally badly done. Period.

You know, I just read a "Rants'n'raves" on PlanetQuake.com about some
drivers from ASUS which makes you able too see through walls in games
like Quake 3. Go read that. See whose side you're on. And then think
about your arguments on this topic again.
It's not the game that's badly dony it's (sorry for my choice of
words) you and/or you children who are bad done. You ab-use the game,
it's your fault it's bad! And if you play TT againts the AI, do you
"cheat" then? Usually I play without the AI because it's so poor. But
that's (mostly) a limitation of computer-power, not programmer-power!
(You can read Chris Sawyers explanation for the bad AI on
<http://i-want-a-website.com/>, don't remember exact URL.)

>> By the way, I'm missing constructive criticism in your post.
>
>You haven't read it, then...

I'm missing that too. And I *did* read it all through!

>> How would it be better ?
>> I mean, how would you implement such a cheating block ?
>
>I gave the idea in the post.
>
>There are at least 7 to 10 people that are making patches for TTo or
>TTd.

Name just three. I only know of one (TTDPatch), and it's got nothing
of what you want!.

>They take my idea(s) and make the patch.

Sure? If you want to know how hard it is to modify someone else's
sofyware, just ask Josef Drexler!

>Still need some more "constructive criticism"...???

Remove the words "some more".

>> Very nice, everybody can go around shouting "that game sucks",
>
>I think there are not too many that complaint about that...
>
>Satisifed with mediocre software... : ????

Satisfied with one of the best games ever! You keep repeating
yourself! I think I'll start doing the same. If you think it's a bad
game, don't play it! Go play with your teddy!

>> "what a waste of money", but if you don't even have an idea how you
>> could change that, shut up.
>
>Shut uip yourself : the idea (one of them at least) was in the post.
>
>Lear to read before you answer...
>
>(Timestamps between my post and yours just prove you don't even took
>time to read ALL my post...)

15 minutes to read and answer? Do you think we're *that* slow? I'm not
the fastest reader in the world, many can do much better than me! And,
you can of course also press "Reply" as soon as you see a post, and
then read it as you write your reply!

>It is NEVER too late to say "hey, something goes wrong".

True, but sometimes it's just so late nobody listens.

Niels (aka. niLLer)
-- 
e-mail: nmartin at iname dot com      ICQ UIN: 50187323
http://xoasis.com/~niller/ - niLLer's pages (My programs, in English)
http://whitehat.dk/g4s/ - The G4S Page (Personlig side, p� dansk)
 -- Behind the end of nowhere!

Just as I expected, Philippe BRUNO <philipp...@skynet.be> came up
with this:

<snip 301 lines of hate-letter>

Wow! This guy *really* dislikes TT! I really can't get his point in
"you can just cheat your way to winning by placing track all over the
place". If you're playing against another human you can just create
some rules between each other! I remember, when lpaying Red Alert
against my freinds 2 or 3 years ago, we agreed "no a-bombs should be
thrown in bases", because we all thought it just gave a too big
advantage to the first player to finish an a-bomb!
You can transfer the same to TT! You are a human! You can (should be
able to) control your own actions! If you think something you do is
unfair against someone else, don't do it! If someone is unfair against
you, tell him/her you think it is unfair, and if he/she keeps doing
it, either do the same to him/her, or just refuse to play until he/she
get's some better "manners"!

That's my viewpoint on this, anyone else?

Niels (aka. niLLer)
-- 
e-mail: nmartin at iname dot com      ICQ UIN: 50187323
http://xoasis.com/~niller/ - niLLer's pages (My programs, in English)
http://whitehat.dk/g4s/ - The G4S Page (Personlig side, p� dansk)
 -- Behind the end of nowhere!

Niels (niLLer) wrote:
> 
> Just as I expected, Philippe BRUNO <philipp...@skynet.be> came up
> with this:
> 
> <snip 301 lines of hate-letter>
> 
> Wow! This guy *really* dislikes TT !


Not exactly.

I was found of TTo and TTd... UNTIL I discovered these opened doors for
cheating and trick.

Now, I am terribly disappointed.

High hopes, high expectations, and, at the end, a SH*T...!!!



> I really can't get his point in
> "you can just cheat your way to winning by placing track all over the
> place". If you're playing against another human you can just create
> some rules between each other !


....Just if you didn't know there are at least 10 possibilities of
STUPIDLY block an opponent...!!!!

Throwing rails all over in zig-zag is just ONE stupid way...


I DO CONSIDER that it is NOT up to THE PLAYERS to make the rules...!!!!


When you play chess or poker or know-card-games , do you have the
strange idea to modify rules or do you need to set rules up by
yourself...????



> I remember, when lpaying Red Alert against my freinds 2 or 3 years
> ago, we agreed "no a-bombs should be thrown in bases", because we all
> thought it just gave a too big advantage to the first player to finish
> an a-bomb !
> You can transfer the same to TT! You are a human! You can (should be
> able to) control your own actions! If you think something you do is
> unfair against someone else, don't do it !

> If someone is unfair against you, tell him/her you think it is unfair,
> and if he/she keeps doing it, either do the same to him/her, or just
> refuse to play until he/she get's some better "manners" !
> 
> That's my viewpoint on this, anyone else ?



Your point of view could be acceptable if there were ONE , or TWO ,
IDIOTICS , STUPID , ways to block an opponent.

But there are SO MANY possibiities to CHEAT and to TRICK that, at the
end, it's better to throw that F***** game, because re-writing ALL the
rules to be able to play "tough but fair" would definitely be... the
programmer's job...!!!!



> 
> Niels (aka. niLLer)



Pls read ALL my posts TWICE before you answer...  You write arguments
that were already mentioned and answered in my FIRST post...

Thanks.

Philippe BRUNO.

Just as I expected, Philippe BRUNO <philipp...@skynet.be> came up
with this:

>I was found of TTo and TTd... UNTIL I discovered these opened doors for
>cheating and trick.

First: I've never - ever - played TT networked.

As soon as I found out these "tricks" I just thougt it made the game
more fun. When playing against the AI, that is!

>> I really can't get his point in
>> "you can just cheat your way to winning by placing track all over the
>> place". If you're playing against another human you can just create
>> some rules between each other !
>
>....Just if you didn't know there are at least 10 possibilities of
>STUPIDLY block an opponent...!!!!
>
>Throwing rails all over in zig-zag is just ONE stupid way...
>
>
>I DO CONSIDER that it is NOT up to THE PLAYERS to make the rules...!!!!
>
>
>When you play chess or poker or know-card-games , do you have the
>strange idea to modify rules or do you need to set rules up by
>yourself...????

A turn-based card game is not the same as a realtime computer-strategy
game! I really don�t think you can compare these two! It's like tryng
to mix apples and bananas to get a cheese-burger!

>> I remember, when lpaying Red Alert against my freinds 2 or 3 years
>> ago, we agreed "no a-bombs should be thrown in bases", because we all
>> thought it just gave a too big advantage to the first player to finish
>> an a-bomb !
>> You can transfer the same to TT! You are a human! You can (should be
>> able to) control your own actions! If you think something you do is
>> unfair against someone else, don't do it !
>
>> If someone is unfair against you, tell him/her you think it is unfair,
>> and if he/she keeps doing it, either do the same to him/her, or just
>> refuse to play until he/she get's some better "manners" !
>> 
>> That's my viewpoint on this, anyone else ?
>
>Your point of view could be acceptable if there were ONE , or TWO ,
>IDIOTICS , STUPID , ways to block an opponent.
>
>But there are SO MANY possibiities to CHEAT and to TRICK that, at the
>end, it's better to throw that F***** game, because re-writing ALL the
>rules to be able to play "tough but fair" would definitely be... the
>programmer's job...!!!!

Maybe yould should tell Hansbj�rg that? See if he likes you ideas.

>Pls read ALL my posts TWICE before you answer...  You write arguments
>that were already mentioned and answered in my FIRST post...

Or you could have shortened your first post! Half of it is
self-repeating!

Am I right when I say this?:
"It is impossible to make a game free of cheating, just like it is
impossible to create energy."

Niels (aka. niLLer)
-- 
e-mail: nmartin at iname dot com      ICQ UIN: 50187323
http://xoasis.com/~niller/ - niLLer's pages (My programs, in English)
http://whitehat.dk/g4s/ - The G4S Page (Personlig side, p� dansk)
 -- Behind the end of nowhere!

>It's like tryng
>to mix apples and bananas to get a cheese-burger!


The perfect meal! : )

Over the hills and far away in alt.games.microprose.transport-tyc,
Philippe BRUNO came to play... 

[...]

And after all that, you haven't changed my opinion of TT - that it's
one hell of a cool game.  Do remember, it was made in 1995, and for a
game to last five years, an incredibly outdated game by modern standards,
is a massive achievement. 

-- 
Eddie Bernard			use...@ebernard.greatxscape.net

just a little comment to this BRUNO guy: Why are you posting this discussion to
a sims newsgroup? Many of us know that Transport Tycoon game, but this is mostly
a newsgroup for the game The Sims tm and The Sims livin' large tm (both
trademark of Maxis which is now belonging to EA, visit homepage
www.thesims.com/us for more information)

"Philippe BRUNO" <philipp...@skynet.be> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:3A24B5B5.2CC4@skynet.be...
> > Vincent Jacquemin wrote:
> >
> > > "Philippe BRUNO" <philipp...@skynet.be> wrote
> > > Same kind of "pure quality" argument as in the beginning : "you're
> > > not satisfied ?  --  shut up and go away".
> > >
> > > Jorg Heider's ravages, for sure...
> > >
> > > Open your mind boy.
> > >
> > > Philippe BRUNO.
> >
> > Instead of buying games that I'm sure you won't like, you should
> > invest in some good litterature:
>
>
> Ok, I  * DO *  APOLOGIZE.

I sure hope so.

> I should NOT have said that.

Well, you did.

> His "arguments" such as " if you're not satisfied, stop playing, shut up
> and go away"  turned me mad.
>
>
> My most sincere apologizes to all I could have offended.

Good.

> Philippe BRUNO
>
>
> (That doesn't change any of my arguments against TTo and TTd and
> suggestions to improve it (patch for blocking as many as possible CHEAT
> and TRICK possibilities) ).

Well, it can't change much as I didn't find any real arguments anyway. Just
loads and loads of shouting.

If you don't know, I define constructive criticism as pinpointing the
problem AND making suggestions how it can be done better. Something along
the lines of "OK, this is bad in this and this way, we could improve the
situation/make upcoming titles better by <insert ideas here>"

Also, it seems you have either suddenly realised that, you still haven't
replied to my post. The second possible reason for this is that you can't
stand real arguments agains yours and thus are too afraid to continue to
contribute.
*muahaha*

Phillip

Philippe BRUNO <philipp...@skynet.be> writes:

> When you play chess or poker or know-card-games , do you
> have the strange idea to modify rules or do you need to
> set rules up by yourself...????

When you play chess or poker, you play by rules that people
have established over time -- rules that people have
determined offer an enjoyable game.  There's nothing in an
ordinary chessboard that *forces* your queen to move in a
straight line; she does because the players agree on it.

So people are suggesting that you do the same thing when
playing multiplayer TT -- accept a conventional set of rules
that veterans of the game have developed to keep things fair
and fun.

Besides, do you realize how many chess variations there are?
*Lots* of people have developed alternate rules for chess.

> Your point of view could be acceptable if there were ONE ,
> or TWO , IDIOTICS , STUPID , ways to block an opponent.

The number of ways to do it is irrelevant.  Either you want
to cheat, or you don't.  If the former, one way will be
plenty; if the latter, it doesn't matter how many ways there
are.

I've never played multiplayer TTD, but I occasionally cheat
in single-player.  Not to win, since the CPs are
ridiculously easy to beat anyway; but to get them out of my
way when they've built in a spot I want.  I'm not playing it
as a competitive game, but as a builder, so that makes sense
to me.  Feel free to develop your own playing style and
rules, and have fun with them.


Aaron
-- 
abau...@esc.pike.il.us - Coatsburg, IL, USA
Extreme Systems Consulting - http://esc.pike.il.us/
CGI, Perl, and Linux/Unix Administration

Does anyone know where i can find a patch for more trains?
email me
es...@hotmail.com
thanx

"Philippe BRUNO" <philipp...@skynet.be> wrote in message
news:3A2416FB.2BB2@skynet.be...
> Subject: [tycoon] TTo and TTD ? : just worth Z.E.R.O., definitely !!!!
>          [WAS : I want a patch... to close a STUPID opened door...!!!]
>
>          Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 17:27:25 +0100
>          From: Philippe BRUNO <philipp...@skynet.be>
>     Reply-To: tyc...@egroups.com
> Organization: Hardware Technology
>           To: tyc...@egroups.com
>
>
> > > Hi there.
> > >
> > > I'm new on that list but not new on TTo / TTd.
> > >
> > > My kids (1 girl + 1 boy) started to play TTo three or four years
> > > ago, when they were 8 y.o. and 9 y.o.
> > >
> > > They were totally addicted to the game, so I wanted to know more
> > > about that game and started to play w/them.
> > >
> > > MANY things are very good, in that game, but many things are really,
> > > definitely, S.T.U.P.I.D. !!!!!
> > >
> > > For instance, playing in "2 players mode" : How come that
> > > "intelligence" when trying to "block" the opponent is supposed be
> > > "throwing rails in zig-zag all over the place", or to surround a
> > > town with rails that are just connected to NOTHING and go NOWHERE,
> > > and lots other STUPID methods...????
> > >
> > > How come that Chris Sawyer has let such a "Braindead" possibility
> > > opened in that game...?????
> > >
> > > Thus, I wanted to say "I would like to get a special patch", a patch
> > > that would forbid to throw rails "randomly" in order to block the
> > > opponent(s).
> > >
> > > For instance, there could (SHOULD !) be a possibility such as this
> > > one :
> > >
> > > --- When a player has put three (or just TWO...) pieces of roads or
> > > rails that are just NOT connected to anything, then there would be a
> > > message popping up that would say "You are setting rails in a
> > > "non-constructive" way. Your penalty is : you are not allowed to
> > > build anything during the next six months".
> > >
> > >
> > > To keep it simple, I now REFUSE to play AGAINST my kids because I
> > > find such a way to stop opponents simply STUPID...!!!!
> > >
> > >
> > > If I want a braindead shoot'em up, then I buy one.
> > >
> > > BUT , when I choose to play with a game that is *supposed* (!)  to
> > > be a "clever" game, then I find that a possibility such as "I throw
> > > rails all over the place so he can't build roads" is totally STUPID
> > > in such a game.
> > >
> > >
> > > (Sorry for my bad english. French, Spanish, Italian translation(s)
> > > on request.)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I'd be interested to know what other peoples here are thinking about
> > > that : Do you find really "real life" , do you find really
> > > "believable", do you find really... clever (!) that, in order to
> > > block an opponent for building roads the "best" way is to throw as
> > > many pieces of rails that is needed, no matter they are NOT
> > > connected to anything...????
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > A game can be very good at 99.9 %, and finally being a STUPID game
> > > due to 0.1 % of its conception...
> > >
> > >
> > > This problem , PLUS the fact that when money starts to get in then
> > > the game is loosing all of it's interest, are two BIG problems that
> > > are making me saying : TTo or TTD ? : Yes, good games. Until you
> > > discover these two flaws...
> > >
> > >
> > > Tks for yr feedback,
> > >
> > > Philippe BRUNO.
>
>
>
>
>
> > Kuba Nalazek wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
>
> Hi Kuba,
>
>
> > Every game can be spoilt, if you play unfair.
>
> I do not agree w/u : not *every* game. This is not true.
>
> Let's take Monopoly for instance : there are tips for playing better but
> NO CHEAT, NO TRICK.
>
> Let's take ALL the card games : there are rules, tips to win and so on,
> but I have no chance to win any card game if I throw the cards in all
> and every direction...
>
> If such a game would exist, it would be STUPID, don't you think so ?
>
>
>
> > Yes, you are right TT is not perfect, but I think this is not the main
> > problem.
>
>
> Once again, I do not agree w/u.
>
> A game is "difficult" , "clever"  AND , ABOVE ALL : PLEASANT ,
> enjoyable, IF  -  and only IF  -  it remains "realistic with itself".
>
> Suppose a shoot'em up / shoot'em all : we ALL know it is NOT "realistic"
> but it is "realistic as a whole" , "realistic with itself" : You shoot
> all over, and the fastest win (in short...)
>
> On the opposite, Tycoon is SUPPOSED to be a "fair" , "clever" ,
> "strategic" game.
>
> Please tell me WHERE are the FAIR , the CLEVER and the STRATEGY angles
> when you can block your opponent by throwing rails all over...????
>
>
> Finally, that game is worth a very big   Z.E.R.O.   , simply because
> there are STUPID doors left opened.
>
>
> It COULD HAVE BEEN a TERRIFIC game.
>
> To achieve that goal, ALL the "stupid" , "stupid cheating" and other
> TRICKY possibilities should have been forbidden.
>
>
>
> > The problem is your attitude to playing.
>
>
> No.
>
> My "attitude with playing" is NOT "the problem".
>
> The problem is Transport Tycoon itself...!!!
>
> My "attitude with playing" is just the POOR RESULT of a POORLY
> PROGRAMMED game...!!!!
>
> What is that for a "strategic" game , a "supposed to be clever" game
> where THE PLAYERS are FORCED to "strengthen" the rules by
> themselves...?????
>
> Are  WE  supposed to replace the lousy programmers , the bugs and the
> flaws...????
>
>
> Have you EVER seen a "classic" game such as chess, poker, monopoly and
> so on where you are FORCED to "set" the rules by yourself just because
> there are openings for cheating...????
>
> Is there a possibility to CHEAT, in chess...???
>
> At poker, you can BLUFF.
> Try to cheat other players and come back to tell me what happened...!!!
>
>
>
> > If you decide with your children not to block the opponents by laying
> > these 'stupid zig-zags' anymore your problem will disappear.
>
>
> Yes, that's what we are doing, of course.
>
> BUT : I DO NOT FIND THAT SITUATION AS A NORMAL ONE , especially in a
> game that is SUPPOSED to be "clever"....!!!!!!!!
>
>
> > Suppose there was a patch that could forbid to block the
> > opponent(s). I think you would still get angry because of lots of
> > other methods of cheating in TT.
>
> YES , there are others methods for cheating in TTo or TTd.
>
> And so what...?
>
> Should we say "ok, forget it, there are so many ways to cheat and trick
> in that game so let's do whatever we want" ???
>
> If we say that, then TTo or TTd are just games that are not even worth
> to be installed and played...!!!!
>
> W.H.Y. should we accept all the "cheating possibilities"...????
>
> Because there are SO MANY...????
>
> Bad answer...
>
>
>
> > I hope you don't know them yet. Otherwise TT could lose in your esteem
> > at all.
>
> I don't know ALL of them, of course.
>
> But no need : the only ones I know are enough to make me SICK...!!!!
>
>
>
> I repeat again : Cheating , Tricky ways , can be acceptable in an
> 8-years-old braindead playstation shoot'em up game.
>
> This is DEFINITELY NOT ACCEPTABLE in a game that is supposed to be
> "realistic", "clever", "tactical".
>
>
>
> > Don't be angry.
> > Have fun playing TT, because it's the best game ever!
>
>
> The "best game ever"...????
>
> Are you kidding...????
>
> I am SICK. I am FED UP with TTo or TTd.
>
> It COULD HAVE BEEN a TERRIFIC game.
>
> Due to ALL the STUPID possibilities to CHEAT and to TRICK , these games
> (TTo and TTd) are just worth NOTHING...!!!!
>
>
> What does the advertising say ?
> Do the advertising say "Transport Tycoon, the best strategic game ever",
> or does it say (which is closer to the reality !) "Transport Tycoon, the
> best strategic game ever UNTIL YOU DISCOVER ALL THE FLAWS and the stupid
> possibilities left opened to CHEAT and TRICK your opponents, then you'll
> immediately be BORED and FED UP with"...???
>
> Due to those flaws those games are just as "beautiful" , "terrific" and
> "clever" than a Ferrari without an engine...!!!!
>
>  - Hey, kids, let's play Tycoon, ok ?
>  - Ok !
>  - Well... : Just a problem here : The guy(s) who developped that
>    "clever" software just forgot to install an engine, but it's not a
>    problem : We suppose there IS an engine, ok ?
>  - Ok.
>  - Ok then : let's sit down and make "Vraoum" with your mouth.
>    Waw... Geez... : what a terrific car...!!!
>
>
>
> Another one ?
>
> TTo and TTd are just as "clever" as a new version of Monopoly or poker.
>
> The "new" versions are just like the old ones, except that you can win
> the game when throwing cards and dices all over the room.
>
>
>
> Still willing to tell me these games are "the best games ever"...???
>
>
>
> Transport Tycoon...???  (Original and Deluxe)
> They're just ALL BUT CLEVER
> They're just ALL BUT "STRATEGIC"
>
> They're just a bunch of S**T !!!!
>
>
> I really DO HOPE that, one day, someone that is capable to build a patch
> will play those games and say "I DO HATE TRICKS, I DO HATE CHEATS. I
> want to play TOUGH , BUT FAIR".
>
> Perhaps that guy will , finally , make what you call "a terrific game"
> out of that crap.
>
>
>
> Is it anybody outhere who LIKES strategic games but HATES cheats and
> tricks...???
>
>
> Is there a chance to get a patch that would make those games "tough BUT
> clever" instead of "well designed (hey, look at the smoke from the train
> - waouw, it's nice !) BUT stupid"...???
>
>
>
>
> Philippe BRUNO.

Hey Philippe,

Step away from the keyboard and seek medical attention.

I suggest Prozac or lithium.

In the immortal works of 'ahnold'... "it's not a tumor"

> Vincent Jacquemin wrote:
> 
> > "Philippe BRUNO" <philipp...@skynet.be> wrote
> > Same kind of "pure quality" argument as in the beginning : "you're
> > not satisfied ?  --  shut up and go away".
> >
> > Jorg Heider's ravages, for sure...
> >
> > Open your mind boy.
> >
> > Philippe BRUNO.
> 
> Instead of buying games that I'm sure you won't like, you should
> invest in some good litterature:


Ok, I  * DO *  APOLOGIZE.


I should NOT have said that.


His "arguments" such as " if you're not satisfied, stop playing, shut up
and go away"  turned me mad.


My most sincere apologizes to all I could have offended.


Philippe BRUNO


(That doesn't change any of my arguments against TTo and TTd and
suggestions to improve it (patch for blocking as many as possible CHEAT
and TRICK possibilities) ).

<melit...@yebo.co.za> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:28i82t0h2amen05ks5t15dd39b2ja6n07d@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 28 Nov 2000 22:48:53 +0100,  you , "Phillip Jordan"
<pmjo...@nusurf.at>, wrote:
>
> >> Open your mind boy.
> >
> >I'd *love* to know what you exactly are trying to say with that sentence.
>
> You know, there's an old saying that if you play with crap, it sticks
> to your fingers ..... might I suggest that you leave him floating in
> the sewer, and go have fun somewhere (of course AFTER giving your
> hands a good wash!)  - he's not worth the trouble of getting worked up
> over ...

I'm not getting worked over. You think I take this guy seriously? I just
like messing about with people who aren't able to come up with any valid
arguments and then watch them creep off. You might call it sadistic but
that's what people get when they start flaming on usenet/any other forum
while I'm around. It's fun messing with peoples' minds ;-)

> It's not often I say this, but he's a real candidate for the
> <PLONK> file

Just because he doesn't have anything good to say? I mean, the Haider stuff
was VERY offensive but I'm getting used to it. People who know nothing about
the matter and find out I'm from Austria do it all the time. Sure it bothers
me but not as much as it used to. Especially as it's plain untrue.

> >Happy flaming
>
> Exactly .... let him rant and rave all he likes - with luck he'll
> singe his Widdle Teddy Bear and have something to really cry about,
> although my sympathies will be strictly with the teddy ...

Hehe... it seems he has already retreated. *lol*

Phillip

> Phillip Jordan wrote:
> 


> > His "arguments" such as " if you're not satisfied, stop playing,
> > shut up and go away"  turned me mad.
> >
> > My most sincere apologizes to all I could have offended.
> 
> Good.
> 

> > That doesn't change any of my arguments against TTo and TTd and
> > suggestions to improve it (patch for blocking as many as possible
> > CHEAT and TRICK possibilities) ).
> 
> Well, it can't change much as I didn't find any real arguments anyway.


> Something along the lines of "OK, this is bad in this and this way, we
> could improve the situation/make upcoming titles better by <insert
> ideas here>"


Hi.

Listing of the bugs is actually being done : simply collect two or three
of the last posts and you have about 10 to 12 big bugs that should be
corrected.

Constructive criticism ?
Ok. Just ONE suggestion : in order to prevent people to throw rails all
over in order to block progression of the opponent, there could be a
rule like this :

--- When a player has put three (or just TWO...) pieces of roads or
rails that are just NOT connected to anything, then there would be a
message popping up that would say "You are setting rails in a
"non-constructive" way. Your penalty is : you are not allowed to build
anything during the next six months".


Same for stations that are connected to nowhere and are just set up in
order to steal goods of the opponent.



Those bugs (the 10 or 12 ones) are not very difficult to correct.



 
> Also, it seems you have either suddenly realised that, you still
> haven't replied to my post. The second possible reason for this is
> that you can't stand real arguments agains yours and thus are too
> afraid to continue to contribute.
> *muahaha*
> 
> Phillip


No. The only reason is that I have a lot to do besides discussing about
that matter...


Have a nice day,

Philippe BRUNO.

Phillipe BRUNO:
"That doesn't change any of my arguments against TTo and TTd and
suggestions to improve it (patch for blocking as many as possible CHEAT
and TRICK possibilities) "

I: "Try real life. There are no cheats"

"nice" "good enough" "Network "network "that game sucks" "what a waste of
money" "pure quality" "you're not satisfied ?  --  shut up and go away".

What is this all this? Who exactly are you quoting?

As my scissors get blunt of snipping away now over 500 lines...

Philippe BRUNO schrieb:

> ....Just if you didn't know there are at least 10 possibilities of
> STUPIDLY block an opponent...!!!!
>
> Throwing rails all over in zig-zag is just ONE stupid way...

...yeah, there are many other 'stupid' ways, such as

-Zig-Zagging is harmless, better is to block an opponent while building
bridges, it csts him lots of money.

-Build railroads over opponent's roads...
  - destroy them afterwards
  - Buy a train which is overrunning all opponent's cars (it's good because
tcitys don't like him any more after that)

-snip opponents' ships ways by increasing land level (ah, I love it...)

-building useless stations so that opponent can't build any more

-and the cheats, of course............

Just as I expected, Felix Rieger <hue...@hotmail.com> came up with
this:

>-snip opponents' ships ways by increasing land level (ah, I love it...)

I think I've seen the computer in TT build ships only one or two
times!

Niels (aka. niLLer)
-- 
e-mail: nmartin at iname dot com      ICQ UIN: 50187323
http://xoasis.com/~niller/ - niLLer's pages (My programs, in English)
http://whitehat.dk/g4s/ - The G4S Page (Personlig side, p� dansk)
 -- Behind the end of nowhere!

 On Tue, 28 Nov 2000 22:48:53 +0100,  you , "Phillip Jordan" <pmjo...@nusurf.at>, wrote:

>> Open your mind boy.
>
>I'd *love* to know what you exactly are trying to say with that sentence.

You know, there's an old saying that if you play with crap, it sticks
to your fingers ..... might I suggest that you leave him floating in
the sewer, and go have fun somewhere (of course AFTER giving your
hands a good wash!)  - he's not worth the trouble of getting worked up
over ...

It's not often I say this, but he's a real candidate for the
<PLONK> file

>Happy flaming

Exactly .... let him rant and rave all he likes - with luck he'll
singe his Widdle Teddy Bear and have something to really cry about,
although my sympathies will be strictly with the teddy ...

Cheers
Frank
-->> Remove me from my address to reply by e-mail 

-->>Unsolicited commercial mail (spam) will always
-->>be forwarded to the relevant ISP without exception.

Philippe BRUNO schrieb:

> > Phillip Jordan wrote:
> >
>
> > > His "arguments" such as " if you're not satisfied, stop playing,
> > > shut up and go away"  turned me mad.
> > >
> > > My most sincere apologizes to all I could have offended.
> >
> > Good.
> >
>
> > > That doesn't change any of my arguments against TTo and TTd and
> > > suggestions to improve it (patch for blocking as many as possible
> > > CHEAT and TRICK possibilities) ).
> >
> > Well, it can't change much as I didn't find any real arguments anyway.
>
> > Something along the lines of "OK, this is bad in this and this way, we
> > could improve the situation/make upcoming titles better by <insert
> > ideas here>"
>
> Hi.
>
> Listing of the bugs is actually being done : simply collect two or three
> of the last posts and you have about 10 to 12 big bugs that should be
> corrected.
>
> Constructive criticism ?
> Ok. Just ONE suggestion : in order to prevent people to throw rails all
> over in order to block progression of the opponent, there could be a
> rule like this :
>
> --- When a player has put three (or just TWO...) pieces of roads or
> rails that are just NOT connected to anything, then there would be a
> message popping up that would say "You are setting rails in a
> "non-constructive" way. Your penalty is : you are not allowed to build
> anything during the next six months".
>
> Same for stations that are connected to nowhere and are just set up in
> order to steal goods of the opponent.
>
> Those bugs (the 10 or 12 ones) are not very difficult to correct.
>
>
> > Also, it seems you have either suddenly realised that, you still
> > haven't replied to my post. The second possible reason for this is
> > that you can't stand real arguments agains yours and thus are too
> > afraid to continue to contribute.
> > *muahaha*
> >
> > Phillip
>
> No. The only reason is that I have a lot to do besides discussing about
> that matter...
>
> Have a nice day,
>
> Philippe BRUNO.

> Am I right when I say this?:
> "It is impossible to make a game free of cheating, just like it is
> impossible to create energy."

That's what Niels wrote...

...And I fully agree with him. It's impossible to create a game w/o cheating.
Cheating was first a programming tool. Programmers test a game by cheating
and -because of that- reaching situations SO fast like noone else. Removing
cheats is a problem because they're "embedded" into the game.

...And, CHEATING and using bugs is justly normal- In real life, too:

Look at some people who made money with web site names. It's kind of 'using
bugs'.