🚀 go-pugleaf

On Fri, 16 Mar 2012 18:46:27 -0400, Rin Stowleigh
<rstowleigh@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>Might be good stuff if they find a way to keep what's good about
>existing Elder Scrolls games separate about what makes WoW and similar
>games so tiresome.
>
>http://www.tomsguide.com/us/ZeniMax-Bethesda-Elder-Scrolls-Online-MMO,news-14481.html

Great!  This adds exactly what Skyrim was missing... 60,000 assholes
roaming around with names like BigHooters_FTW, Kill_All_Niggers and
Chronic420 floating above their heads.

On Fri, 16 Mar 2012 20:43:31 -0400, Tim O <timo56REMOVE@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>On Fri, 16 Mar 2012 18:46:27 -0400, Rin Stowleigh
><rstowleigh@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>Might be good stuff if they find a way to keep what's good about
>>existing Elder Scrolls games separate about what makes WoW and similar
>>games so tiresome.
>>
>>http://www.tomsguide.com/us/ZeniMax-Bethesda-Elder-Scrolls-Online-MMO,news-14481.html
>
>Great!  This adds exactly what Skyrim was missing... 60,000 assholes
>roaming around with names like BigHooters_FTW, Kill_All_Niggers and
>Chronic420 floating above their heads.

Well that's part of what I meant with the "if" statement above.  There
should be a way to make a MMORPG game less of a pain in the ass.  It
may come down to down to whether or not they are able to innovate, or
if they just follow the formula that has already been laid out.

Think outside the box for a moment.  What if they limited the choice
of names to a first / last name combination based on a fixed list
(Second Life did that).  Then kept everything first or third person
(no zooming out for RTS style battles).  No nametags perpetually
hovering overhead, it could work like Skyrim where names are shown
only when in close distance and the cursor is on.  Perhaps lots of
players overall, but never more than X per instance of the world,
where the instances are divided into copies of the world with only
enough players that you'd be seeing about as many other players as you
see as NPCs in Skyrim today, allowing you to preserve the loner-ish
solitude feel as much as you wanted, while banding together for
battles when appropriate.

It could be done.  Bethsoft has the funds to do it right.  Whether
they will or not?  Anyone's guess, but with something like this,
they're going to do it anyway, so it would be better to get on their
forums and contribute, help shape it into the game we want, rather
than to either not show up at all or call them idiots for trying,
ensuring our thoughts wont be heard.

On Fri, 16 Mar 2012 20:43:31 -0400, Tim O <timo56...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>On Fri, 16 Mar 2012 18:46:27 -0400, Rin Stowleigh
><rstow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>Might be good stuff if they find a way to keep what's good about
>>existing Elder Scrolls games separate about what makes WoW and similar
>>games so tiresome.
>>
>>http://www.tomsguide.com/us/ZeniMax-Bethesda-Elder-Scrolls-Online-MMO,news-14481.html
>
>Great!  This adds exactly what Skyrim was missing... 60,000 assholes
>roaming around with names like BigHooters_FTW, Kill_All_Niggers and
>Chronic420 floating above their heads.

Right on Tim O! :-)

On Fri, 16 Mar 2012 20:17:14 -0600, PW
<emailaddyinsig@ifIremember.com> wrote:

>On Fri, 16 Mar 2012 20:43:31 -0400, Tim O <timo56REMOVE@hotmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 16 Mar 2012 18:46:27 -0400, Rin Stowleigh
>><rstowleigh@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>Might be good stuff if they find a way to keep what's good about
>>>existing Elder Scrolls games separate about what makes WoW and similar
>>>games so tiresome.
>>>
>>>http://www.tomsguide.com/us/ZeniMax-Bethesda-Elder-Scrolls-Online-MMO,news-14481.html
>>
>>Great!  This adds exactly what Skyrim was missing... 60,000 assholes
>>roaming around with names like BigHooters_FTW, Kill_All_Niggers and
>>Chronic420 floating above their heads.
>
>Right on Tim O! :-)

Opinions don't count for folks on horse and carriage packet transfer
internet plans.  Chime in when you've got some bandwidth in the
matter.

Hehe.. jk Paul.

On Fri, 16 Mar 2012 23:09:23 -0500, Xocyll <Xocyll@kingston.net>
wrote:

>Tim O <timo56REMOVE@hotmail.com> looked up from reading the entrails of
>the porn spammer to utter  "The Augury is good, the signs say:
>
>>On Fri, 16 Mar 2012 18:46:27 -0400, Rin Stowleigh
>><rstowleigh@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>Might be good stuff if they find a way to keep what's good about
>>>existing Elder Scrolls games separate about what makes WoW and similar
>>>games so tiresome.
>>>
>>>http://www.tomsguide.com/us/ZeniMax-Bethesda-Elder-Scrolls-Online-MMO,news-14481.html
>>
>>Great!  This adds exactly what Skyrim was missing... 60,000 assholes
>>roaming around with names like BigHooters_FTW, Kill_All_Niggers and
>>Chronic420 floating above their heads.
>
>Doesn't have to be like that.
>City of Heroes lets you pick whatever you like, BUT, there are words
>that are filtered and cannot be used, and any name that doesn't run foul
>of the filters but is offensive will be noticed eventually and become
>"Generic ###############" 
>
>The Chronic example above could exist, but not the other two.
>
>Are WoW and other MMOs really that lax in naming scheme?

Been a while since I played any of them, but they can be annoying, and
while I'm one of those that believes "when in Rome, do as the Romans
do" (meaning if I sign up for an MMO, I try to keep an open mind to
the MMO community rather than expect them to do things my way), I can
tell you that lang filters don't solve the problem entirely, you can
still end up with "Wut_UpD00d" or something as a name.... the
smacktards will find a way to bypass filters.

This would be more of a problem in a series like Elder Scrolls than in
most games, where there is a at least a sense of striving for total
immersion in the setting, and "anything goes" names can break
immersion just as could custom wall-graffiti sprays.

On the other hand, don't underestimate the potential for medieval
times and modern conveniences to merge, as this FULLY_SKYRIM_COMPLIANT
young man is here to demonstrate: 

http://bit.ly/zwZZw4

On Fri, 16 Mar 2012 22:19:01 -0400, Rin Stowleigh
<rstowleigh@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Fri, 16 Mar 2012 20:17:14 -0600, PW
><emailaddyinsig@ifIremember.com> wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 16 Mar 2012 20:43:31 -0400, Tim O <timo56REMOVE@hotmail.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Fri, 16 Mar 2012 18:46:27 -0400, Rin Stowleigh
>>><rstowleigh@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>Might be good stuff if they find a way to keep what's good about
>>>>existing Elder Scrolls games separate about what makes WoW and similar
>>>>games so tiresome.
>>>>
>>>>http://www.tomsguide.com/us/ZeniMax-Bethesda-Elder-Scrolls-Online-MMO,news-14481.html
>>>
>>>Great!  This adds exactly what Skyrim was missing... 60,000 assholes
>>>roaming around with names like BigHooters_FTW, Kill_All_Niggers and
>>>Chronic420 floating above their heads.
>>
>>Right on Tim O! :-)
>
>Opinions don't count for folks on horse and carriage packet transfer
>internet plans.  Chime in when you've got some bandwidth in the
>matter.
>
>Hehe.. jk Paul.

Yeah, okay.  I will move to a big city like where you live just so I
can spend hundreds of dollars downloading games!  Heck, I have managed
to do that already with Steam!  I don't need to be tempted any
further!

Mass Effect 3 seems to be a huge download (cut scenes and all I
suppose) and Amazon doesn't offer it either than some website I've
never heard of - albeit at $40 but it's a three week delivery.

And M$ ruined MS Flight Sim, dumbed it down to an arcade game and that
is only a "free" (pay as you go) download now.  Not worth me leaving
my PC on for days just to download it.  Called "Flight" now.

Thanks

-pw

Xocyll  <Xocyll@kingston.net> wrote:
>Doesn't have to be like that.
>City of Heroes lets you pick whatever you like, BUT, there are words
>that are filtered and cannot be used, and any name that doesn't run foul
>of the filters but is offensive will be noticed eventually and become
>"Generic ###############" 

One thing I think they and every other MMORPG should copy from City
of Heroes is allowing names with spaces in them.  You get much more
appropriate names when users are given the creative freedom that allows.
Just allowing people to tack on a last name when their favourite name
is taken makes things much better.

						Ross Ridge

-- 
 l/  //	  Ross Ridge -- The Great HTMU
[oo][oo]  rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
-()-/()/  http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca/~rridge/ 
 db  //	  

Tim O <timo56REMOVE@hotmail.com> looked up from reading the entrails of
the porn spammer to utter  "The Augury is good, the signs say:

>On Fri, 16 Mar 2012 18:46:27 -0400, Rin Stowleigh
><rstowleigh@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>Might be good stuff if they find a way to keep what's good about
>>existing Elder Scrolls games separate about what makes WoW and similar
>>games so tiresome.
>>
>>http://www.tomsguide.com/us/ZeniMax-Bethesda-Elder-Scrolls-Online-MMO,news-14481.html
>
>Great!  This adds exactly what Skyrim was missing... 60,000 assholes
>roaming around with names like BigHooters_FTW, Kill_All_Niggers and
>Chronic420 floating above their heads.

Doesn't have to be like that.
City of Heroes lets you pick whatever you like, BUT, there are words
that are filtered and cannot be used, and any name that doesn't run foul
of the filters but is offensive will be noticed eventually and become
"Generic ###############" 

The Chronic example above could exist, but not the other two.

Are WoW and other MMOs really that lax in naming scheme?

Xocyll
-- 
I don't particularly want you to FOAD, myself. You'll be more of 
a cautionary example if you'll FO And Get Chronically, Incurably, 
Painfully, Progressively, Expensively, Debilitatingly Ill. So 
FOAGCIPPEDI. -- Mike Andrews responding to an idiot in asr 

On Sat, 17 Mar 2012 00:08:35 -0400, Ross Ridge
<rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:

>Xocyll  <Xocyll@kingston.net> wrote:
>>Doesn't have to be like that.
>>City of Heroes lets you pick whatever you like, BUT, there are words
>>that are filtered and cannot be used, and any name that doesn't run foul
>>of the filters but is offensive will be noticed eventually and become
>>"Generic ###############" 
>
>One thing I think they and every other MMORPG should copy from City
>of Heroes is allowing names with spaces in them.  You get much more
>appropriate names when users are given the creative freedom that allows.
>Just allowing people to tack on a last name when their favourite name
>is taken makes things much better.

In a game like the Elder Scrolls series, where there are races and
what not, why not allow the player to choose from a list of first and
last names that is indigenous to the genetic background (race, class
etc) they've chosen for their character?  As a last step rather than a
first.

Most NPC names are procedurally generated anyway, no reason the same
concept cannot be applied to a limited list of available player names.

On Fri, 16 Mar 2012 21:59:06 -0600, PW
<emailaddyinsig@ifIremember.com> wrote:

>On Fri, 16 Mar 2012 22:19:01 -0400, Rin Stowleigh
><rstowleigh@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 16 Mar 2012 20:17:14 -0600, PW
>><emailaddyinsig@ifIremember.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Fri, 16 Mar 2012 20:43:31 -0400, Tim O <timo56REMOVE@hotmail.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Fri, 16 Mar 2012 18:46:27 -0400, Rin Stowleigh
>>>><rstowleigh@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Might be good stuff if they find a way to keep what's good about
>>>>>existing Elder Scrolls games separate about what makes WoW and similar
>>>>>games so tiresome.
>>>>>
>>>>>http://www.tomsguide.com/us/ZeniMax-Bethesda-Elder-Scrolls-Online-MMO,news-14481.html
>>>>
>>>>Great!  This adds exactly what Skyrim was missing... 60,000 assholes
>>>>roaming around with names like BigHooters_FTW, Kill_All_Niggers and
>>>>Chronic420 floating above their heads.
>>>
>>>Right on Tim O! :-)
>>
>>Opinions don't count for folks on horse and carriage packet transfer
>>internet plans.  Chime in when you've got some bandwidth in the
>>matter.
>>
>>Hehe.. jk Paul.
>
>Yeah, okay.  I will move to a big city like where you live just so I
>can spend hundreds of dollars downloading games!  Heck, I have managed
>to do that already with Steam!  I don't need to be tempted any
>further!
>
>Mass Effect 3 seems to be a huge download (cut scenes and all I
>suppose) and Amazon doesn't offer it either than some website I've
>never heard of - albeit at $40 but it's a three week delivery.
>
>And M$ ruined MS Flight Sim, dumbed it down to an arcade game and that
>is only a "free" (pay as you go) download now.  Not worth me leaving
>my PC on for days just to download it.  Called "Flight" now.

Freud called this psychological concept penis envy only because he was
born in pre-computing era, thus the penis and vagina were the nearest
representation of zeros and ones within his grasp at the time.

Lucky for you, technology offers solutions more accessible than what
Chaz Bono went through, if motivated.

On 3/16/2012 7:17 PM, PW wrote:
> On Fri, 16 Mar 2012 20:43:31 -0400, Tim O<timo56REMOVE@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 16 Mar 2012 18:46:27 -0400, Rin Stowleigh
>> <rstowleigh@gmail.com>  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Might be good stuff if they find a way to keep what's good about
>>> existing Elder Scrolls games separate about what makes WoW and similar
>>> games so tiresome.
>>>
>>> http://www.tomsguide.com/us/ZeniMax-Bethesda-Elder-Scrolls-Online-MMO,news-14481.html
>>
>> Great!  This adds exactly what Skyrim was missing... 60,000 assholes
>> roaming around with names like BigHooters_FTW, Kill_All_Niggers and
>> Chronic420 floating above their heads.
>
> Right on Tim O! :-)

One thing that just gets me giggling is hearing some idiot /shout to 
zone "WTF reported my name!".  Happens in every mmo.  They always try 
and they always get reported.

On Fri, 16 Mar 2012 18:46:27 -0400, Rin Stowleigh
<rstowleigh@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>Might be good stuff if they find a way to keep what's good about
>existing Elder Scrolls games separate about what makes WoW and similar
>games so tiresome.
>
>http://www.tomsguide.com/us/ZeniMax-Bethesda-Elder-Scrolls-Online-MMO,news-14481.html


The last great single-player developer succumbing to the mediocre
moronic muppet-minded money-mopping MMO malaise.

John Lewis

On Sat, 17 Mar 2012 09:52:12 GMT, john.dsl@frontier.com (John Lewis)
wrote:

>On Fri, 16 Mar 2012 18:46:27 -0400, Rin Stowleigh
><rstowleigh@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>Might be good stuff if they find a way to keep what's good about
>>existing Elder Scrolls games separate about what makes WoW and similar
>>games so tiresome.
>>
>>http://www.tomsguide.com/us/ZeniMax-Bethesda-Elder-Scrolls-Online-MMO,news-14481.html
>
>
>The last great single-player developer succumbing to the mediocre
>moronic muppet-minded money-mopping MMO malaise.

Well if you look at it from the game vendors standpoint, it solves the
problem of some consumers waiting for years to buy the game in the
five dollar bargain bin, long after the vendor went out of business
for lack of profit.

And I still think if done right, it could be fun.

> Great!  This adds exactly what Skyrim was missing... 60,000
> assholes roaming around with names like BigHooters_FTW,
> Kill_All_Niggers and Chronic420 floating above their heads.

Don't forget "...and jumping like a class of kids afflicted by Sydenham's 
chorea" 

On 3/16/2012 3:46 PM, Rin Stowleigh wrote:
>
> Might be good stuff if they find a way to keep what's good about
> existing Elder Scrolls games separate about what makes WoW and similar
> games so tiresome.
>
> http://www.tomsguide.com/us/ZeniMax-Bethesda-Elder-Scrolls-Online-MMO,news-14481.html

       I hope this is a lie, if not, then say goodbye to a great 
series. All good things...

John

On 3/16/2012 5:59 PM, Rin Stowleigh wrote:
> On Fri, 16 Mar 2012 20:43:31 -0400, Tim O<timo56REMOVE@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 16 Mar 2012 18:46:27 -0400, Rin Stowleigh
>> <rstowleigh@gmail.com>  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Might be good stuff if they find a way to keep what's good about
>>> existing Elder Scrolls games separate about what makes WoW and similar
>>> games so tiresome.
>>>
>>> http://www.tomsguide.com/us/ZeniMax-Bethesda-Elder-Scrolls-Online-MMO,news-14481.html
>>
>> Great!  This adds exactly what Skyrim was missing... 60,000 assholes
>> roaming around with names like BigHooters_FTW, Kill_All_Niggers and
>> Chronic420 floating above their heads.
>
> Well that's part of what I meant with the "if" statement above.  There
> should be a way to make a MMORPG game less of a pain in the ass.  It
> may come down to down to whether or not they are able to innovate, or
> if they just follow the formula that has already been laid out.

      What everyone seems to want to do is be the next WOW. Well 
WOW already has that market and anyone else trying to get into 
it will probably fail. The best way to do multiplayer for TES 
games is to keep a big single player campaign and allow people 
to run servers on their own. Let them mod it and make the rules.

John

On Sat, 17 Mar 2012 16:41:45 -0700, John Slade <hhitman86@pacbell.net>
wrote:

>On 3/16/2012 5:59 PM, Rin Stowleigh wrote:
>> On Fri, 16 Mar 2012 20:43:31 -0400, Tim O<timo56REMOVE@hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 16 Mar 2012 18:46:27 -0400, Rin Stowleigh
>>> <rstowleigh@gmail.com>  wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Might be good stuff if they find a way to keep what's good about
>>>> existing Elder Scrolls games separate about what makes WoW and similar
>>>> games so tiresome.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.tomsguide.com/us/ZeniMax-Bethesda-Elder-Scrolls-Online-MMO,news-14481.html
>>>
>>> Great!  This adds exactly what Skyrim was missing... 60,000 assholes
>>> roaming around with names like BigHooters_FTW, Kill_All_Niggers and
>>> Chronic420 floating above their heads.
>>
>> Well that's part of what I meant with the "if" statement above.  There
>> should be a way to make a MMORPG game less of a pain in the ass.  It
>> may come down to down to whether or not they are able to innovate, or
>> if they just follow the formula that has already been laid out.
>
>      What everyone seems to want to do is be the next WOW. Well 
>WOW already has that market and anyone else trying to get into 
>it will probably fail. The best way to do multiplayer for TES 
>games is to keep a big single player campaign and allow people 
>to run servers on their own. Let them mod it and make the rules.

See my thoughts from earlier post about instances.

I agree completely with your thoughts behind the last couple of
paragraphs, except in the real world of independent servers, there is
a gazillion ways that individual server admins can do things that
sully the game brand and make it harder for most people to enjoy
multiplayer.

For example, Admin Joe doesn't like the most recent patch.  It nerfs
his beloved charmed longstaff too much.  He liked the old way where he
was in his comfort zone.  So, he just doesn't apply it.  Now his
server shows up in the server list, but when people join they get
client mismatch errors.

That's just one scenario, but it's something that has tanked more than
one multiplayer game in the past. You don't need to be a MMO to solve
that particular problem, but you do need some sort of regulation
around server instances to keep it from happening.

It would be interesting if Bethsoft found a way to allow individual
servers or instances to proliferate, but in a controlled manner.  The
game is not going to be fun if a clan can set up cheat-capable servers
for their people to level up, then folks with ungodly powers can go to
any other server and abuse (or just have the upper hand on) the
mainstream crowd.

On Sat, 17 Mar 2012 16:22:10 -0700, John Slade <hhitman86@pacbell.net>
wrote:

>On 3/16/2012 3:46 PM, Rin Stowleigh wrote:
>>
>> Might be good stuff if they find a way to keep what's good about
>> existing Elder Scrolls games separate about what makes WoW and similar
>> games so tiresome.
>>
>> http://www.tomsguide.com/us/ZeniMax-Bethesda-Elder-Scrolls-Online-MMO,news-14481.html
>
>       I hope this is a lie, if not, then say goodbye to a great 
>series. All good things...

A few other sources have reported this and to the best of my
knowledge, it is fact, not rumor.

However, I'm not sure why everyone is talking like it would be the end
of the existing single player series.  The article says the entire
timeline is meant to predate the existing series.

On Sat, 17 Mar 2012 12:02:29 -0400, Rin Stowleigh
<rstowleigh@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sat, 17 Mar 2012 09:52:12 GMT, john.dsl@frontier.com (John Lewis)
>wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 16 Mar 2012 18:46:27 -0400, Rin Stowleigh
>><rstowleigh@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>Might be good stuff if they find a way to keep what's good about
>>>existing Elder Scrolls games separate about what makes WoW and similar
>>>games so tiresome.
>>>
>>>http://www.tomsguide.com/us/ZeniMax-Bethesda-Elder-Scrolls-Online-MMO,news-14481.html
>>
>>
>>The last great single-player developer succumbing to the mediocre
>>moronic muppet-minded money-mopping MMO malaise.
>
>Well if you look at it from the game vendors standpoint, it solves the
>problem of some consumers waiting for years to buy the game in the
>five dollar bargain bin, long after the vendor went out of business
>for lack of profit.
>

Methinks that certainly does NOT apply to Bethsoft. They do not need
to bother creating a MMO. Hopefully, all of their current staff are
off developing the next installment of Elder Scrolls or Fallout and
that they employ contract-hacks on the MMO.

John Lewis

>And I still think if done right, it could be fun.

On Sat, 17 Mar 2012 09:52:12 GMT, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action, John Lewis
wrote: 

>mediocre
>moronic muppet-minded money-mopping MMO malaise.

I love that. I'm stealing it.

(Plus, the abbreviation is MMMMMMMMO.)

-- 
Zag

No one ever said on their deathbed, 'Gee, I wish I had
spent more time alone with my computer.' ~Dan(i) Bunten

On Sun, 18 Mar 2012 03:58:05 GMT, john.dsl@frontier.com (John Lewis)
wrote:

>On Sat, 17 Mar 2012 12:02:29 -0400, Rin Stowleigh
><rstowleigh@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 17 Mar 2012 09:52:12 GMT, john.dsl@frontier.com (John Lewis)
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Fri, 16 Mar 2012 18:46:27 -0400, Rin Stowleigh
>>><rstowleigh@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>Might be good stuff if they find a way to keep what's good about
>>>>existing Elder Scrolls games separate about what makes WoW and similar
>>>>games so tiresome.
>>>>
>>>>http://www.tomsguide.com/us/ZeniMax-Bethesda-Elder-Scrolls-Online-MMO,news-14481.html
>>>
>>>
>>>The last great single-player developer succumbing to the mediocre
>>>moronic muppet-minded money-mopping MMO malaise.
>>
>>Well if you look at it from the game vendors standpoint, it solves the
>>problem of some consumers waiting for years to buy the game in the
>>five dollar bargain bin, long after the vendor went out of business
>>for lack of profit.
>>
>
>Methinks that certainly does NOT apply to Bethsoft. They do not need
>to bother creating a MMO. Hopefully, all of their current staff are
>off developing the next installment of Elder Scrolls or Fallout and
>that they employ contract-hacks on the MMO.

Here's the douche calling the shots.  Write him a letter maybe? 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_A._Altman

John Lewis <john.dsl@frontier.com> wrote:
>Methinks that certainly does NOT apply to Bethsoft. They do not need
>to bother creating a MMO. Hopefully, all of their current staff are
>off developing the next installment of Elder Scrolls or Fallout and
>that they employ contract-hacks on the MMO.

It's been known for a while now that ZeniMax (the parent company of
Bethesda) has been busy creating an MMORPG in-house.  As the Tom's Guide
article indicates, they've been hiring people to work on it for quite
some time now.  The only thing this latest rumour reveals is that it's
an Elder Scrolls MMORPG that they've been working on.  The team that was
working on Skyrim in parallel will presumably move onto another project,
probably another single player RPG, while the MMORPG team continues on
its own project.

					Ross Ridge

-- 
 l/  //	  Ross Ridge -- The Great HTMU
[oo][oo]  rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
-()-/()/  http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca/~rridge/ 
 db  //	  

> Might be good stuff if they find a way to keep what's good
> about existing Elder Scrolls games separate about what
> makes WoW and similar games so tiresome.

> http://www.tomsguide.com/us/ZeniMax-Bethesda-Elder-Scrolls-Online-MMO,news-14481.html

I see, by looking around, that there is the usual number of "tragedy 
chasers" who are predicting the end of the World after this "news". There 
are at least three observations worth of making, here:

A) These aren't "news" but "rumors".

B) A "MMORPG set in the Elder Scrolls Universe" is not the same as "Skyrim 
successor", the way World of Warcraft was not Warcraft 3 successor.

C) It is this kind of "tragedy chasing" that gives lifeblood to those 
moronic "op eds" who call the players upset by Mass Effect 3 ending 
"whiners". By whining about everything you simply lose steam when real 
tragedy strikes (AKA "Cry wolf"). 

On 17/03/2012 8:00 PM, Rin Stowleigh wrote:
> On Sat, 17 Mar 2012 16:41:45 -0700, John Slade<hhitman86@pacbell.net>
>>       What everyone seems to want to do is be the next WOW. Well
>> WOW already has that market and anyone else trying to get into
>> it will probably fail.

Not relevant to Skyrim, but: wouldn't a change of genre, e.g. to science 
fiction, make a difference?

> For example, Admin Joe doesn't like the most recent patch.  It nerfs
> his beloved charmed longstaff too much.  He liked the old way where he
> was in his comfort zone.  So, he just doesn't apply it.  Now his
> server shows up in the server list, but when people join they get
> client mismatch errors.

Can't the server list include the server version?

>The game is not going to be fun if a clan can set up cheat-capable servers
> for their people to level up, then folks with ungodly powers can go to
> any other server and abuse (or just have the upper hand on) the
> mainstream crowd.

Disallow character transfer between servers?

I can't really see the need to worry.
Yes the whole Elder Scrolls world looks a good candidate for a MMO
but only in overall style.
Central to all the games so far is that they are based around a single
'Hero' main quest to save the world.
A MMO would have to be very different
& there for an alternative rather than a replacement design.

I have played (to varying extents) all the TES games since Arena (including 
Redguard)
& dare I suggest IMO the whole Elder Scrolls 'Tamriel on Nirn' thing is now 
pretty worn out
& has being going Dum Down Hill since Morrowind.
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")  mouse (What A Dreadful Thing To Say ?! (shock!)) 

On Sun, 18 Mar 2012 09:10:25 -0400, David Lamb <dal...@cs.queensu.ca>
wrote:

>On 17/03/2012 8:00 PM, Rin Stowleigh wrote:
>> On Sat, 17 Mar 2012 16:41:45 -0700, John Slade<hhit...@pacbell.net>
>>>       What everyone seems to want to do is be the next WOW. Well
>>> WOW already has that market and anyone else trying to get into
>>> it will probably fail.
>
>Not relevant to Skyrim, but: wouldn't a change of genre, e.g. to science 
>fiction, make a difference?

There was a lot of speculation this big MMO project might be a Fallout
series world instead.  Personally I wish it was.  But a setting that I
prefer does not necessarily mean it would be a better or more
successful game.  I played some "wasteland" themed MMORPG about 5
years or so ago, and it was so horrible that I can't even remember the
name of it [side note, I noticed that Wasteland 2 is in development...
maybe I'll post a second thread for that one]

Its been known for a while that they've been staffing up in areas that
made it clear MMO was one direction the company was headed.  During
the hiring process you can only prevent word of mouth to a limited
degree.  What nobody knew before now was whether it would be an Elder
Scrolls type game, a Fallout game, something else, etc.  Looks like
the recent success of Skyrim might have helped them make up their
minds.

>> For example, Admin Joe doesn't like the most recent patch.  It nerfs
>> his beloved charmed longstaff too much.  He liked the old way where he
>> was in his comfort zone.  So, he just doesn't apply it.  Now his
>> server shows up in the server list, but when people join they get
>> client mismatch errors.
>
>Can't the server list include the server version?

Well it could, and games have used this to varying degrees of failure
in the past.  One of the problems is the including the server version
as a column in a grid takes up precious screen space in the server
browser.  Then, assuming you can sacrifice some column for display or
find ways of cramming another column in, it ends up looking so
cluttered with v1.2.1, v1.2.3, etc that it demotivates one to bother
playing the game at all.  What ends up happing is people just set
their filters to exclude hits for non matching versions, then there is
no motive to go back and clear the filter once in a while.  This means
they end up playing on Admin Joe's server forever, and forming all of
their opinions of the game based on the way it plays on his server.
Then at whatever point they get fed up with Admin Joe and his inbred
world of restrictions and rules, they conclude the game sucks and just
stop playing it.  As I said it's killed off more than one great
multiplayer game.

>>The game is not going to be fun if a clan can set up cheat-capable servers
>> for their people to level up, then folks with ungodly powers can go to
>> any other server and abuse (or just have the upper hand on) the
>> mainstream crowd.
>
>Disallow character transfer between servers?

Then you only have server-specific character leveling.  That means
you're a level 50 only on Admin Joes server.  In a series like the
Elder Scrolls that is catastrophic, because most people want to
develop their character, meaning that even if you don't have the
server/client mismatch problem I described above, you have a bigger
problem in the sense that when Admin Joe gets fired at work and cannot
afford to pay his ISP bill anymore, his server goes down and the
character you worked for months on is gone forever.

There are of course ways around every problem.  For example, while Far
Cry 2 was neither an MMO nor an RPG, the syndrome I described above
was averted in an interesting way.  There was ranked mode and player
mode, dedicated servers and non dedicated servers.  Ranked mode stored
persistent level info (weapons you unlocked etc) centrally, so you
always took your loadout and level with you.  In player mode you were
only leveled up within that session, and the server admin could adjust
things like starting everyone out with maximum unlocks right off the
bat, or a certain number of points to buy your initial loadout, etc.
Also the leveling up was faster in player mode, so if you played for
an hour you would probably unlock a few more weapons during that time.

They could do something like that.  For TES MMO, as I said whether it
all works or not will come down to the overall design and execution of
it.

On Sun, 18 Mar 2012 08:51:22 +0100, "Vincenzo Beretta"
<reckall@hotmail.com> wrote:

>> Might be good stuff if they find a way to keep what's good
>> about existing Elder Scrolls games separate about what
>> makes WoW and similar games so tiresome.
>
>> http://www.tomsguide.com/us/ZeniMax-Bethesda-Elder-Scrolls-Online-MMO,news-14481.html
>
>I see, by looking around, that there is the usual number of "tragedy 
>chasers" who are predicting the end of the World after this "news". There 
>are at least three observations worth of making, here:
>
>A) These aren't "news" but "rumors".
>
>B) A "MMORPG set in the Elder Scrolls Universe" is not the same as "Skyrim 
>successor", the way World of Warcraft was not Warcraft 3 successor.
>
>C) It is this kind of "tragedy chasing" that gives lifeblood to those 
>moronic "op eds" who call the players upset by Mass Effect 3 ending 
>"whiners". By whining about everything you simply lose steam when real 
>tragedy strikes (AKA "Cry wolf"). 

As far as "Skyrim successor", that's why I added the question mark.
That part was food for thought.

You're surfing a flimsy line between rumor and news.  Its been
"rumored" for about 5 years now that Bethsoft was working on a MMO.
Its been substantiated as fact that they have staffed workers to work
on an MMO for at least the last couple of years to my knowledge.  What
has not been known until recently is whether this was a TES series
game or based on the FO universe, or new franchise altogether.  An
anonymous source has been cited as saying it is TES, so yes, that
aspect of it could be considered rumor.  But there are also cases
where "news stories" have been published and later retracted after
learning they were inaccurate.  It was still news at the time it was
published.  Some journalist somewhere is banking his reputation that
the anonymous source is probably not bullshitting.  In fact, if the
source WAS NOT anonymous, I would say it is almost certainly bullshit
because if you've never seen one of the nondisclosure agreements
involved in a project like this, I can tell you they are pretty much
entitled to your first born if they find out you've leaked
information, thus no employee is going to leak it and put their
signature on the leak.

As far as whiners, I cannot explain the enigma behind why PC Gaming
(1) and whining are so intertwined.  I cannot think of any other hobby
I've been involved in during my lifetime that had such an overwhelming
ratio of whiners to regular guys.  I wonder if anyone can name one
other hobby that is meant to be enjoyable, by definition, that results
in so many grown men temporarily spawning vaginas of their own and
bleeding aloud about what's sucks about it.  I do see similar behavior
from Mac users bitching about why there isn't a Mac version of their
favorite Windows software, but I'm not putting them in the same
behavioral cluster because arguably their complaints could be work
related in many cases (and bitching about one's job is not the same as
bitching about a non-mandatory hobby that they are supposed to be
enjoying).

(1) No doubt this is worse at the console level

>  In fact, if the source WAS NOT anonymous, I would say it is
> almost certainly bullshit because if you've never seen one
> of the nondisclosure agreements involved in a project like
> this, I can tell you they are pretty much entitled to your
> first born if they find out you've leaked information, thus
> no employee is going to leak it and put their signature on
> the leak.

This is very true. I have seen these NDAs because I worked and I do work for 
similar projects (the last one was as a writer on Assassin's Creed: 
Revelations - I'm in the credits so I guess I'm not breaking that NDA 
anymore :^D) and every time there is a leak my hair turns white - exp. if it 
is about something I'm involved with. A colleague of mine unwillingly broke 
an NDA before the deadline (he thought it was a week before) and his hair 
turned white permanently. Add to this how a single leak can cost the job not 
only to the leaker, but to a whole team working with him/her - exp. if that 
part of the job is outsourced.

It is a multi-multi million dollars business, so I guess that the producers 
are entitled to be a bit paranoid. And, frankly, I don't respect much the 
leakers, unless they do an honest mistake. It is a stupid way to endanger 
your job. And, even if you were already fired and disgruntled, a childish 
way to put in a dangerous situation your former colleagues - not to mention 
the risk of not working in the industry anymore.

On Mon, 19 Mar 2012 02:21:26 +0100, "Vincenzo Beretta"
<reckall@hotmail.com> wrote:

>>  In fact, if the source WAS NOT anonymous, I would say it is
>> almost certainly bullshit because if you've never seen one
>> of the nondisclosure agreements involved in a project like
>> this, I can tell you they are pretty much entitled to your
>> first born if they find out you've leaked information, thus
>> no employee is going to leak it and put their signature on
>> the leak.
>
>This is very true. I have seen these NDAs because I worked and I do work for 
>similar projects (the last one was as a writer on Assassin's Creed: 
>Revelations - I'm in the credits so I guess I'm not breaking that NDA 
>anymore :^D) and every time there is a leak my hair turns white - exp. if it 
>is about something I'm involved with. A colleague of mine unwillingly broke 
>an NDA before the deadline (he thought it was a week before) and his hair 
>turned white permanently. Add to this how a single leak can cost the job not 
>only to the leaker, but to a whole team working with him/her - exp. if that 
>part of the job is outsourced.
>
>It is a multi-multi million dollars business, so I guess that the producers 
>are entitled to be a bit paranoid. And, frankly, I don't respect much the 
>leakers, unless they do an honest mistake. It is a stupid way to endanger 
>your job. And, even if you were already fired and disgruntled, a childish 
>way to put in a dangerous situation your former colleagues - not to mention 
>the risk of not working in the industry anymore.
>

Its neat to know you've worked in the industry.  It gives a whole new
perspective on gaming, to be sure.  Especially when you hear folks
raging against a game vendor (or any other software product/service
producer) and you've been on the other side of the fence and
understand all the reasons why.  

On 3/17/2012 5:05 PM, Rin Stowleigh wrote:
> On Sat, 17 Mar 2012 16:22:10 -0700, John Slade<hhitman86@pacbell.net>
> wrote:
>
>> On 3/16/2012 3:46 PM, Rin Stowleigh wrote:
>>>
>>> Might be good stuff if they find a way to keep what's good about
>>> existing Elder Scrolls games separate about what makes WoW and similar
>>> games so tiresome.
>>>
>>> http://www.tomsguide.com/us/ZeniMax-Bethesda-Elder-Scrolls-Online-MMO,news-14481.html
>>
>>        I hope this is a lie, if not, then say goodbye to a great
>> series. All good things...
>
> A few other sources have reported this and to the best of my
> knowledge, it is fact, not rumor.
>
> However, I'm not sure why everyone is talking like it would be the end
> of the existing single player series.  The article says the entire
> timeline is meant to predate the existing series.

      Star Wars the Old Republic is an example. They moved 
totally to online play and they scrapped plans to make KOTOR 3. 
Since too many game companies want to be the next World of 
Warcraft, they're moving franchises from single player to MMO 
only. Not everyone wants to play RPGs online. They want to play 
a game with a campaign, good gameplay and a good story. Also by 
making games multiplayer, it seems they want to put the burden 
on the user to produce the content rather than making a great AI 
system. Game companies are becoming like everything else in 
America. They want to charge as much as possible and give you as 
little as possible. They want to expend the least amount of 
effort. Thank goodness for some small, independent game makers 
that are putting out old style RPGs.

John

On Sun, 18 Mar 2012 22:19:36 -0700, John Slade <hhitman86@pacbell.net>
wrote:

>On 3/17/2012 5:05 PM, Rin Stowleigh wrote:
>> On Sat, 17 Mar 2012 16:22:10 -0700, John Slade<hhitman86@pacbell.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/16/2012 3:46 PM, Rin Stowleigh wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Might be good stuff if they find a way to keep what's good about
>>>> existing Elder Scrolls games separate about what makes WoW and similar
>>>> games so tiresome.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.tomsguide.com/us/ZeniMax-Bethesda-Elder-Scrolls-Online-MMO,news-14481.html
>>>
>>>        I hope this is a lie, if not, then say goodbye to a great
>>> series. All good things...
>>
>> A few other sources have reported this and to the best of my
>> knowledge, it is fact, not rumor.
>>
>> However, I'm not sure why everyone is talking like it would be the end
>> of the existing single player series.  The article says the entire
>> timeline is meant to predate the existing series.
>
>      Star Wars the Old Republic is an example. They moved 
>totally to online play and they scrapped plans to make KOTOR 3. 
>Since too many game companies want to be the next World of 
>Warcraft, they're moving franchises from single player to MMO 
>only. 

> Not everyone wants to play RPGs online. They want to play 
>a game with a campaign, good gameplay and a good story. 

Well some do and some don't.  While I agree not everyone wants an
online RPG, the same is true that not everyone wants an RPG that takes
place in a silo of one either.  While I personally am not really into
MMORPGs, I do prefer multiplayer gaming in general and would like to
see middle ground.  Some social interaction without dealing with mass
idiots.  I'm not sure if it what I have in mind is even achievable in
a series like TES, but I also recognize when it may not matter if one
category of gamers (those who like MMORPGs) are willing to cast their
votes with their wallets (i.e. pay for such a service).  To me, gaming
in a silo has a lifespan of maybe a couple of weeks at best.  It
doesn't matter how many square feet the world is or how many weapon
variations or crafting possibilities there are, if what I experience
is limited to computer AI, I am going to get bored sooner rather than
later, therefore I like the idea of joining forces with a few others
(and being the competitive sort, using those joined relationships to
compete against others).  I recognize not everyone is like me.  I also
recognize the best way to shape the gaming landscape I want is to
spend money on games that suit me and ignore those that don't.

>Also by 
>making games multiplayer, it seems they want to put the burden 
>on the user to produce the content rather than making a great AI 
>system. Game companies are becoming like everything else in 
>America. They want to charge as much as possible and give you as 
>little as possible. They want to expend the least amount of 
>effort. Thank goodness for some small, independent game makers 
>that are putting out old style RPGs.

Unfortunately from a business standpoint, the subscription nature of
MMORPGs may offer monetary temptation that can affect the shape of
gaming in ways we might not like.  If that's your preference don't pay
for them.  Likewise, when a game comes out that does support your
gaming preferences, vote in favor of it by purchasing it WHILE THE
ORIGINAL DEVELOPERS STILL HAVE JOBS.  If you wait five years because
you only by bargain basement games for a fraction of the original
price, its too late because the game team you wanted to support is
probably defunct, laid off, and moved on to another company/project.
If the only projects that offer stable are MMORPG related, guess where
they will go?

Your right to your gaming opinion is in competition with others that
are throwing dollars at what they like.  Brooding about what you don't
like will not change things in your favor.

Am 19.03.2012 07:16, schrieb Rin Stowleigh:
>> a game with a campaign, good gameplay and a good story.
>
> Well some do and some don't.  While I agree not everyone wants an
> online RPG, the same is true that not everyone wants an RPG that takes
> place in a silo of one either.  While I personally am not really into
> MMORPGs, I do prefer multiplayer gaming in general and would like to
> see middle ground.  Some social interaction without dealing with mass
> idiots.  I'm not sure if it what I have in mind is even achievable in
> a series like TES, but I also recognize when it may not matter if one
> category of gamers (those who like MMORPGs) are willing to cast their
> votes with their wallets (i.e. pay for such a service).  To me, gaming
> in a silo has a lifespan of maybe a couple of weeks at best.  It
> doesn't matter how many square feet the world is or how many weapon
> variations or crafting possibilities there are, if what I experience
> is limited to computer AI, I am going to get bored sooner rather than
> later, therefore I like the idea of joining forces with a few others
> (and being the competitive sort, using those joined relationships to
> compete against others).  I recognize not everyone is like me.  I also
> recognize the best way to shape the gaming landscape I want is to
> spend money on games that suit me and ignore those that don't.

I don't know if you've seen Dead Island's multiplayer. The setting may 
not be everybody's cup of tea but the map structure is similar to that 
of the Elder Scrolls games: (relatively) free movement on a large map 
where quests simply lead you to different locations, instead of a level 
structure tailored to specific quests (though even such can be found, 
inside of buildings for example).
You can play singleplayer without problem but can always choose to let 
other players share your game as long as their game progress is 
compatible to yours.

It should be possible to develop such a structure for other games.

On Mon, 19 Mar 2012 12:18:00 +0100, Markus Schäfer
<markus.schaefer@rub.de> wrote:

>Am 19.03.2012 07:16, schrieb Rin Stowleigh:
>>> a game with a campaign, good gameplay and a good story.
>>
>> Well some do and some don't.  While I agree not everyone wants an
>> online RPG, the same is true that not everyone wants an RPG that takes
>> place in a silo of one either.  While I personally am not really into
>> MMORPGs, I do prefer multiplayer gaming in general and would like to
>> see middle ground.  Some social interaction without dealing with mass
>> idiots.  I'm not sure if it what I have in mind is even achievable in
>> a series like TES, but I also recognize when it may not matter if one
>> category of gamers (those who like MMORPGs) are willing to cast their
>> votes with their wallets (i.e. pay for such a service).  To me, gaming
>> in a silo has a lifespan of maybe a couple of weeks at best.  It
>> doesn't matter how many square feet the world is or how many weapon
>> variations or crafting possibilities there are, if what I experience
>> is limited to computer AI, I am going to get bored sooner rather than
>> later, therefore I like the idea of joining forces with a few others
>> (and being the competitive sort, using those joined relationships to
>> compete against others).  I recognize not everyone is like me.  I also
>> recognize the best way to shape the gaming landscape I want is to
>> spend money on games that suit me and ignore those that don't.
>
>I don't know if you've seen Dead Island's multiplayer. The setting may 
>not be everybody's cup of tea but the map structure is similar to that 
>of the Elder Scrolls games: (relatively) free movement on a large map 
>where quests simply lead you to different locations, instead of a level 
>structure tailored to specific quests (though even such can be found, 
>inside of buildings for example).
>You can play singleplayer without problem but can always choose to let 
>other players share your game as long as their game progress is 
>compatible to yours.
>
>It should be possible to develop such a structure for other games.

I actually thought Dead Island's multiplayer had a lot going for it.
The zombie killing got a bit repetitive to me, but I got the sense
that I was playing a type of online game I hadn't played before, so
innovation-wise I thought it was an accomplishment.

Some folks were really off put by it though, so I have a feeling if it
were used as an example of what Elder Scrolls online should be, a lot
of folks would lash out.  But yes I think some ideas could be borrowed
from it.

On 3/18/2012 10:19 PM, John Slade wrote:
> On 3/17/2012 5:05 PM, Rin Stowleigh wrote:
>> On Sat, 17 Mar 2012 16:22:10 -0700, John Slade<hhitman86@pacbell.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/16/2012 3:46 PM, Rin Stowleigh wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Might be good stuff if they find a way to keep what's good about
>>>> existing Elder Scrolls games separate about what makes WoW and similar
>>>> games so tiresome.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.tomsguide.com/us/ZeniMax-Bethesda-Elder-Scrolls-Online-MMO,news-14481.html
>>>>
>>>
>>> I hope this is a lie, if not, then say goodbye to a great
>>> series. All good things...
>>
>> A few other sources have reported this and to the best of my
>> knowledge, it is fact, not rumor.
>>
>> However, I'm not sure why everyone is talking like it would be the end
>> of the existing single player series. The article says the entire
>> timeline is meant to predate the existing series.
>
> Star Wars the Old Republic is an example. They moved totally to online
> play and they scrapped plans to make KOTOR 3.

Final fantasy is an alternate example.  Even after trying their hand at 
mmo they still continued work on single player.

On 3/17/2012 4:22 PM, John Slade wrote:
> On 3/16/2012 3:46 PM, Rin Stowleigh wrote:
>>
>> Might be good stuff if they find a way to keep what's good about
>> existing Elder Scrolls games separate about what makes WoW and similar
>> games so tiresome.
>>
>> http://www.tomsguide.com/us/ZeniMax-Bethesda-Elder-Scrolls-Online-MMO,news-14481.html
>>
>
> I hope this is a lie, if not, then say goodbye to a great series. All
> good things...

This doesn't change development of single-player Elder-Scroll (or
Fallout) RPGs at Bethesda.

Elder-scrolls MMO has been in work for a very long time by a completely
separate team, which is run at a different location. Think of them
(Zenimax Online) as another company under the Zenimax banner, similar
to Bethesda and id Software.

For more information, check out the link 
<http://www.zenimaxonline.com/about.html>
--
Noman

On 18/03/2012 12:48 PM, Rin Stowleigh wrote:
> On Sun, 18 Mar 2012 09:10:25 -0400, David Lamb<dalamb@cs.queensu.ca>
> wrote:
>> On 17/03/2012 8:00 PM, Rin Stowleigh wrote:
>>> On Sat, 17 Mar 2012 16:41:45 -0700, John Slade<hhitman86@pacbell.net>
>>>>        What everyone seems to want to do is be the next WOW. Well
>>>> WOW already has that market and anyone else trying to get into
>>>> it will probably fail.
>>
>> Not relevant to Skyrim, but: wouldn't a change of genre, e.g. to science
>> fiction, make a difference?
>
> There was a lot of speculation this big MMO project might be a Fallout
> series world instead.  Personally I wish it was.  But a setting that I
> prefer does not necessarily mean it would be a better or more
> successful game.  I played some "wasteland" themed MMORPG about 5
> years or so ago, and it was so horrible that I can't even remember the
> name of it [side note, I noticed that Wasteland 2 is in development...
> maybe I'll post a second thread for that one]
>
> Its been known for a while that they've been staffing up in areas that
> made it clear MMO was one direction the company was headed.  During
> the hiring process you can only prevent word of mouth to a limited
> degree.  What nobody knew before now was whether it would be an Elder
> Scrolls type game, a Fallout game, something else, etc.  Looks like
> the recent success of Skyrim might have helped them make up their
> minds.
>
>>> ...Now his server shows up in the server list, but when people join they get
>>> client mismatch errors.
>>
>> Can't the server list include the server version?
>
> Well it could, and games have used this to varying degrees of failure
> in the past.  ... What ends up happing is people just set
> their filters to exclude hits for non matching versions, then there is
> no motive to go back and clear the filter once in a while.  This means
> they end up playing on Admin Joe's server forever, and forming all of
> their opinions of the game based on the way it plays on his server.

Hmm.  I'm a programming geek so keep trying to think of technical 
solutions, even to things that are basically social problems.  The 
filter issue for selecting versions could be partly automated, if I 
understand the problem correctly, by only showing you servers compatible 
with your current client, and if you were considering upgrading your 
client for some reason, only then would you have to consider a larger 
list of what servers (and version numbers) were out there.

>
>>> The game is not going to be fun if a clan can set up cheat-capable servers
>>> for their people to level up, then folks with ungodly powers can go to
>>> any other server and abuse (or just have the upper hand on) the
>>> mainstream crowd.
>>
>> Disallow character transfer between servers?
>
> ...that is catastrophic, because most people want to
> develop their character, meaning that even if you don't have the
> server/client mismatch problem I described above, you have a bigger
> problem in the sense that when Admin Joe ...  server goes down and the
> character you worked for months on is gone forever.
>
> There are of course ways around every problem.  ...  There was ranked mode and player
> mode, dedicated servers and non dedicated servers.

Some kind of 2-level thing like that might wind up being acceptable. Was 
there a reliable way to tell which servers hadn't been modified?

On Mon, 19 Mar 2012 16:52:00 -0400, David Lamb <dalamb@cs.queensu.ca>
wrote:

>On 18/03/2012 12:48 PM, Rin Stowleigh wrote:
>> On Sun, 18 Mar 2012 09:10:25 -0400, David Lamb<dalamb@cs.queensu.ca>
>> wrote:
>>> On 17/03/2012 8:00 PM, Rin Stowleigh wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 17 Mar 2012 16:41:45 -0700, John Slade<hhitman86@pacbell.net>
>>>>>        What everyone seems to want to do is be the next WOW. Well
>>>>> WOW already has that market and anyone else trying to get into
>>>>> it will probably fail.
>>>
>>> Not relevant to Skyrim, but: wouldn't a change of genre, e.g. to science
>>> fiction, make a difference?
>>
>> There was a lot of speculation this big MMO project might be a Fallout
>> series world instead.  Personally I wish it was.  But a setting that I
>> prefer does not necessarily mean it would be a better or more
>> successful game.  I played some "wasteland" themed MMORPG about 5
>> years or so ago, and it was so horrible that I can't even remember the
>> name of it [side note, I noticed that Wasteland 2 is in development...
>> maybe I'll post a second thread for that one]
>>
>> Its been known for a while that they've been staffing up in areas that
>> made it clear MMO was one direction the company was headed.  During
>> the hiring process you can only prevent word of mouth to a limited
>> degree.  What nobody knew before now was whether it would be an Elder
>> Scrolls type game, a Fallout game, something else, etc.  Looks like
>> the recent success of Skyrim might have helped them make up their
>> minds.
>>
>>>> ...Now his server shows up in the server list, but when people join they get
>>>> client mismatch errors.
>>>
>>> Can't the server list include the server version?
>>
>> Well it could, and games have used this to varying degrees of failure
>> in the past.  ... What ends up happing is people just set
>> their filters to exclude hits for non matching versions, then there is
>> no motive to go back and clear the filter once in a while.  This means
>> they end up playing on Admin Joe's server forever, and forming all of
>> their opinions of the game based on the way it plays on his server.
>
>Hmm.  I'm a programming geek so keep trying to think of technical 
>solutions, even to things that are basically social problems.  The 
>filter issue for selecting versions could be partly automated, if I 
>understand the problem correctly, by only showing you servers compatible 
>with your current client, and if you were considering upgrading your 
>client for some reason, only then would you have to consider a larger 
>list of what servers (and version numbers) were out there.

As a software developer myself, I too like to think up technical
solutions to problems, however after being in this industry for a very
long time I sometimes become aware of the difference between tech
solutions to tech problems vs. tech solutions to people problems.
There are lots of technical possibiliies for solving version problems,
but from a human factors standpoint, a game will typically be more
successful with any solution that's as close to "Update available,
click here to download now".  Or better yet, one step further and do
what Steam does "we updated that for ya while you slept buddy", and
this of course implies keeping everyone on the same client and server
version.  

But, in keeping with the scenarios posted so far, the filter issues
I've imagined would still exist in context of the Admin Joe scenario,
because in this case if a player has been playing on Joe's server, and
the filter is set to show current version only, the player might never
see the other servers available, as Joe might be the last remaining
server running v1.0.  Then player gets on forums or usenet and says
"multiplayer seems to be dying out in this game" because he's unaware
of how many possibilities he has isolated himself from simply due to
stagnant filter settings.  

Plus, while it is unfortunate, we live in a world of
console-induced-lowest-common-denominator, and I doubt console players
would be able to grok or tolerate server browsers and versioning, so
unlikely it would be feasible to support it just for PC.

>>
>>>> The game is not going to be fun if a clan can set up cheat-capable servers
>>>> for their people to level up, then folks with ungodly powers can go to
>>>> any other server and abuse (or just have the upper hand on) the
>>>> mainstream crowd.
>>>
>>> Disallow character transfer between servers?
>>
>> ...that is catastrophic, because most people want to
>> develop their character, meaning that even if you don't have the
>> server/client mismatch problem I described above, you have a bigger
>> problem in the sense that when Admin Joe ...  server goes down and the
>> character you worked for months on is gone forever.
>>
>> There are of course ways around every problem.  ...  There was ranked mode and player
>> mode, dedicated servers and non dedicated servers.
>
>Some kind of 2-level thing like that might wind up being acceptable. Was 
>there a reliable way to tell which servers hadn't been modified?

In Far Cry 2?  You chose Ranked versus Player mode as a top-most menu
item.  It was not a server browser setting, it was a menu choice made
right off the bat (think of choosing New Game vs Continue Game from
the top level menu of a SP title and you get the idea).  The ranked
matches were not even displayed in the same browser as the player
ones.

But, to clarify, Far Cry2 did not really have modded servers, per se.
You could have dedicated or non-dedicated (actively hosted).  With any
two-core system or better, it was easy to host while playing without
game performance impact (CPU usage of server is very light).  In
FarCry2 the non-dedicated servers were often better, because it
guaranteed there was an admin present to do things like rotate the map
if folks didn't like the current one.

The difference between Ranked and Player mode, aside from persistent
stats, was that in player mode you could upload and download community
made maps.  It came with the most incredible map making application
I've ever seen in a game, only creativity required... it was about as
damn easy as playing Minecraft to make gorgeous interesting maps, so a
lot of folks did.  But, most of these maps would not be available in
Ranked mode.  There were some custom maps that graduated to "Ranked
Mode Approved" status, which means they could be played as ranked
servers.  The reason they didn't want custom maps in Ranked mode is
because people could be a tool and create maps that had all sorts of
hidden advantages that only the creator knew about, then he could go
in and exploit to the dismay of others.  The whole system was really
brilliantly effective in so many ways.

"Zaghadka" <zagh...@hotmail.com> wrote 
| John Lewis wrote: 
| 
| >mediocre
| >moronic muppet-minded money-mopping MMO malaise.
| 
| I love that. I'm stealing it.
| 
| (Plus, the abbreviation is MMMMMMMMO.)

I liked it too, but the acronym should be MMMMMMMMOM.

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On Wed, 26 Jul 2017 08:30:14 -0700 (PDT), protoc...@gmail.com
wrote:

><snip>

Wow, spam on Usenet. That takes me back. I remember the uproar when
Canter & Siegel crossposted their "green card" advertisment. But it's
been a while since I've seen some here.

Does this mean c.s.p.i.g.a. is considered active enough to make it
worth advertising to? ;-)

On 7/27/2017 5:58 AM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
> On Wed, 26 Jul 2017 08:30:14 -0700 (PDT), protoc...@gmail.com
> wrote:
> 
>> <snip>
> 
> Wow, spam on Usenet. That takes me back. I remember the uproar when
> Canter & Siegel crossposted their "green card" advertisment. But it's
> been a while since I've seen some here.
> 
> Does this mean c.s.p.i.g.a. is considered active enough to make it
> worth advertising to? ;-)
> 
> 
No, it means your kill file is out of date.  ;)

-- 
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation 
instinct are running screaming.

On Thu, 27 Jul 2017 08:11:16 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
<dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:

>> Wow, spam on Usenet. That takes me back. 
>No, it means your kill file is out of date.  ;)

Um Guys,
It really means that that Spammer is out of his date :D

On 7/28/2017 8:22 AM, Rudi wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Jul 2017 08:11:16 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
> <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
> 
>>> Wow, spam on Usenet. That takes me back.
>> No, it means your kill file is out of date.  ;)
> 
> Um Guys,
> It really means that that Spammer is out of his date :D
> 
Spammers are time traveling now?  Boy are we in trouble then!

-- 
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation 
instinct are running screaming.