🚀 go-pugleaf

On 2018-07-11, hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com <hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
> Previously, we discussed education in the newsgroup.  Many of
> us here were in school during the time frame referenced by
> the following articles.
>
> LIFE reviewed the state of the nation's schools in 1958.
>
> It also compares Soviet schools.
>
> https://books.google.com/books?id=PlYEAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PP1&dq=life%20breck&pg=PA25#v=onepage&q&f=false
>
> part II of the series
> https://books.google.com/books?id=S1YEAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PP1&dq=life%20mar%2031%2C%201958&pg=PA93#v=onepage&q&f=false
>

Fat lot of good it did in the long run for either system...

Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> writes:

> On 2018-07-13, Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
> 
> [6 lines snipped]
> 
>> You have also produced a third or so of your population, including
>> many notionally well educated people, that thinks the Bdelygma in Chief
> 
> Ooh, a good new word, thank you!

Yer welcome.  Much opportunity to apply it.  Am I still a cngebavfvat
phag?

Another, gratis: presbyphoria.  You're old enough to be retired so you
may have it.


-- 
Mike Spencer                  Nova Scotia, Canada

On 13 Jul 2018 02:26:15 -0300, Mike Spencer
<mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:

>
>J. Clarke <jclarke...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> As long as there are politicians in the US there will be loud
>> lamenting of the sorry state of American education.  And yet somehow
>> we keep producing wonders.
>
>You have also produced a third or so of your population, including
>many notionally well educated people, that thinks the Bdelygma in Chief
>is intelligent, knowledgeable, wise, stable, truthful and capable of
>doing the job his office requires.  Sorry state, QED.

So what?  You can't fix stupid.

On Sunday, July 15, 2018 at 1:00:06 AM UTC-6, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:

> 	The measure of the quality of an educational system isn't the peak,
> it is the average and the bottom. Some of the determined and brilliant will
> always succeed.

Yes and no.

If one's purpose is one kind of social justice, how well an education system 
serves the mentally-retarded is going to be very important.

If one's purpose is *another* kind of social justice, how well the average are 
educated, so that if they come from economically-disadvantaged backgrounds 
(maybe having the wrong color of skin to go with it) they're equipped to find 
the best possible employment to move up in the economic ladder is going to be a 
major goal.

And these goals are certainly laudable and proper.

But if your goal is to ensure the nation's survival, by unlocking the energy of 
the atom before your dreaded enemies do this...

then it is not sufficient consolation that *some* of those who are both 
determined and brilliant will succeed. You will want to catch every one of those 
who are brilliant - even if they lack determination - because many of them may 
end up being brilliant at playing the violin or some such thing, and so the 
supply of people to work at places like Los Alamos is going to be limited even 
in the best of times.

It is therefore not the case that serving any single goal, unless it's broadly 
phrased as maximizing the potential of every child, is the measure of an 
educational system.

John Savard

On Friday, July 13, 2018 at 9:26:20 PM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:

> So what?  You can't fix stupid.

Nope. But if stupid serves your purposes, you can keep people ignorant.

For that matter, if you put lead in the water supply, you can even create more 
stupid.

John Savard

On Mon, 16 Jul 2018 20:46:10 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
<jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

>On Monday, July 16, 2018 at 8:29:12 PM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:
>
>> And now we disdain vo-tech as "the dummy track" and don't have
>> "commercial" programs at all in most schools.
>
>What's the point of teaching kids to do jobs that either are done in China or are 
>done by computers? The educational system can't take the place of the economy.

What, jobs like auto repair, welding, machining, carpentry,
pipefitting, woodworking, heavy mechanics, aviation? All of those
things done in China by computers? Those are the programs that are
disappearing. Heck, how about someone to give you a shave and a
haircut, or a style and dye? We used to train them, too.

On Mon, 16 Jul 2018 20:47:34 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
<jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

>On Friday, July 13, 2018 at 9:26:20 PM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:
>
>> So what?  You can't fix stupid.
>
>Nope. But if stupid serves your purposes, you can keep people ignorant.
>
>For that matter, if you put lead in the water supply, you can even create more 
>stupid.

For a while there, they just pumped it directly into the air. Much
more effective, after all, most tap water never sees the inside of a
human body. My lawn doesn't mind the fluoride, I guess a little more
lead won't hurt either.

On 17 Jul 2018 07:09:57 GMT
maus <ma...@mail.com> wrote:

> I am unimpressed with computers in real life. a local expert in AI was 
> interviewed a couple of weeks ago on radio. He pointed out that if
> the is a water leak in your house, you will call a plumber, and that job
> can not be taken by AI.

	Hmm that is far from clear, an AI with suitable tools could make an
excellent plumber in the not too distant future.

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN                                     | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

On 2018-07-17, Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
> On 2018-07-17, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
>> On 17 Jul 2018 07:09:57 GMT
>> maus <ma...@mail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I am unimpressed with computers in real life. a local expert in AI was 
>>> interviewed a couple of weeks ago on radio. He pointed out that if
>>> the is a water leak in your house, you will call a plumber, and that job
>>> can not be taken by AI.
>>
>> 	Hmm that is far from clear, an AI with suitable tools could make an
>> excellent plumber in the not too distant future.
>
> I'm quite happy to wager an evening's drinking that we'll both be long
> dead before that happens. Not because of the AI part, but because of the
> robotics part, Boston Dynamics notwithstanding.
>

There was a company here a few years ago that was preparing CD's that
would allow children to be taught without teachers.

The company is long gone, as is the funds invested in it. 

I have  a vague memory of something like that being proposed back in the '60.

In my opinion, AI (as in artificial intel) is b******t.

Hey, recently there was football match between Denmark and Ireland. As I
am aware that that Danish human semen is the most popular with Irish women
that who need that, what is the probability that people at match were sitting
beside their sister or brother?.. Oh, Denmark won the match.

Anyone can make a mistake. To really f*** up, you need a computer.


-- 
greymaus.ireland.ie
Will Rant for Food.

On Tue, 17 Jul 2018 10:14:19 GMT, Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid>
wrote: 

> On 2018-07-17, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
>> On 17 Jul 2018 07:09:57 GMT
>> maus <ma...@mail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I am unimpressed with computers in real life. a local expert in AI
>>> was interviewed a couple of weeks ago on radio. He pointed out that
>>> if the is a water leak in your house, you will call a plumber, and
>>> that job can not be taken by AI.
>>
>>      Hmm that is far from clear, an AI with suitable tools could make
>>      an 
>> excellent plumber in the not too distant future.
> 
> I'm quite happy to wager an evening's drinking that we'll both be long
> dead before that happens. Not because of the AI part, but because of
> the robotics part, Boston Dynamics notwithstanding.
> 

Think small. a heap of nanobots could repair a leak from the /inside/.

-- 
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.

On 17 Jul 2018 10:41:43 GMT, Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
> On 2018-07-17, Kerr-Mudd,John <nots...@invalid.org> wrote:
>> On Tue, 17 Jul 2018 10:14:19 GMT, Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid>
>> wrote: 
>>
>>> On 2018-07-17, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
>>>> On 17 Jul 2018 07:09:57 GMT
>>>> maus <ma...@mail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I am unimpressed with computers in real life. a local expert in AI
>>>>> was interviewed a couple of weeks ago on radio. He pointed out that
>>>>> if the is a water leak in your house, you will call a plumber, and
>>>>> that job can not be taken by AI.
>>>>
>>>>      Hmm that is far from clear, an AI with suitable tools could make
>>>>      an 
>>>> excellent plumber in the not too distant future.
>>> 
>>> I'm quite happy to wager an evening's drinking that we'll both be long
>>> dead before that happens. Not because of the AI part, but because of
>>> the robotics part, Boston Dynamics notwithstanding.
>>> 
>>
>> Think small. a heap of nanobots could repair a leak from the /inside/.
>
> s/nanobots/non-existent technology/

Yep we will be all dead before nanobots are in use.

Also plumbers don't just do repairs. They install new pipes, rads,
showers etc too. I don't think nanobots will do that.

-- 
Andy Leighton => an...@azaal.plus.com
"We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"
   - Douglas Adams

On Tue, 17 Jul 2018 10:41:43 +0000, Huge wrote:

> s/nanobots/non-existent technology/
> 
> I'm as big an SF fan as the next man (there are several thousand SF
> books in the adjacent room right now), but I think you need to be a
> little more realistic.

But...But...! You don't *need* nanobots! You simply miniaturise a 
submarine and crew!

-- 
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

On 17 Jul 2018 10:14:19 GMT
Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:

> On 2018-07-17, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
> > On 17 Jul 2018 07:09:57 GMT
> > maus <ma...@mail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> I am unimpressed with computers in real life. a local expert in AI was 
> >> interviewed a couple of weeks ago on radio. He pointed out that if
> >> the is a water leak in your house, you will call a plumber, and that
> >> job can not be taken by AI.
> >
> > 	Hmm that is far from clear, an AI with suitable tools could
> > make an excellent plumber in the not too distant future.
> 
> I'm quite happy to wager an evening's drinking that we'll both be long
> dead before that happens. Not because of the AI part, but because of the
> robotics part, Boston Dynamics notwithstanding.

	A good robot plumber wouldn't be even remotely humanoid, or even
single bodied. It needs to cut and pull pipes (copper and PEX), fit
connectors and valves and connect pipes to appliances, find and diagnose
leaks - I'd expect it all to start with plumbers helpers in the form of
small specialised robots that can get into confined spaces to work on pipes
and fittings.

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN                                     | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

On Tue, 17 Jul 2018 10:36:19 -0000 (UTC)
"Kerr-Mudd,John" <nots...@invalid.org> wrote:

> Think small. a heap of nanobots could repair a leak from the /inside/.

	Nanobots is pushing it, but I could imagine something specialised
that could get inside half inch pipes to find leaks and fit patches being
quite feasible today - initially plumbers would carry some in their toolbox
for fixing leaks under the slab and similarly inconvenient places.

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN                                     | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

On Tue, 17 Jul 2018 11:28:52 +0000, Huge wrote:

> On 2018-07-17, Bob Eager <news...@eager.cx> wrote:
>> On Tue, 17 Jul 2018 10:41:43 +0000, Huge wrote:
>>
>>> s/nanobots/non-existent technology/
>>> 
>>> I'm as big an SF fan as the next man (there are several thousand SF
>>> books in the adjacent room right now), but I think you need to be a
>>> little more realistic.
>>
>> But...But...! You don't *need* nanobots! You simply miniaturise a
>> submarine and crew!
> 
> Isn't Raquel Welch a tad ... old ... to be doing plumbing?    :o)
> 
> Apropos of nothing, the story that the original film and Isaac Asimov's
> novelisation is based on was co-written by Jerome Bixby, author of one
> of the best SF short stories ever written, "It's a Good Life";
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It%27s_a_Good_Life

That one still creeps me out. I get worried I'm going to end up in the 
field.


-- 
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

On Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 6:30:30 AM UTC-6, Bob Eager wrote:

> On Tue, 17 Jul 2018 11:28:52 +0000, Huge wrote:
> > Isn't Raquel Welch a tad ... old ... to be doing plumbing?    :o)

He wrote that? Why isn't his post visible?

I see your earlier post, and then I see your post quoting this. But the post you're quoting is not recorded on Google Groups (formerly DejaNews).

John Savard

On Tue, 17 Jul 2018 06:16:14 -0700 (PDT)
Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

> On Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 6:30:30 AM UTC-6, Bob Eager wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, 17 Jul 2018 11:28:52 +0000, Huge wrote:
> > > Isn't Raquel Welch a tad ... old ... to be doing plumbing?    :o)
> 
> He wrote that? Why isn't his post visible?

	USENET propagation perhaps, it got to me via albasani (as did Bob's
post).

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN                                     | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

On 2018-07-17, Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

> On Friday, July 13, 2018 at 9:26:20 PM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:
>
>> So what?  You can't fix stupid.
>
> Nope. But if stupid serves your purposes, you can keep people ignorant.

"Ignorance is strength."  -- George Orwell

"Ignorance is bliss - if you're exploiting the ignorant."  -- me

> For that matter, if you put lead in the water supply, you can even
> create more stupid.

Perhaps, but social media are even more effective and can be more
finely tuned.

-- 
/~\  cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ /  I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
 X   Top-posted messages will probably be ignored.  See RFC1855.
/ \  Fight low-contrast text in web pages!  http://contrastrebellion.com

Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
> On 17 Jul 2018 10:14:19 GMT
> Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
> 
>> On 2018-07-17, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
>>> On 17 Jul 2018 07:09:57 GMT
>>> maus <ma...@mail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> I am unimpressed with computers in real life. a local expert in AI was 
>>>> interviewed a couple of weeks ago on radio. He pointed out that if
>>>> the is a water leak in your house, you will call a plumber, and that
>>>> job can not be taken by AI.
>>> 
>>> Hmm that is far from clear, an AI with suitable tools could
>>> make an excellent plumber in the not too distant future.
>> 
>> I'm quite happy to wager an evening's drinking that we'll both be long
>> dead before that happens. Not because of the AI part, but because of the
>> robotics part, Boston Dynamics notwithstanding.
> 
> 	A good robot plumber wouldn't be even remotely humanoid, or even
> single bodied. It needs to cut and pull pipes (copper and PEX), fit
> connectors and valves and connect pipes to appliances, find and diagnose
> leaks - I'd expect it all to start with plumbers helpers in the form of
> small specialised robots that can get into confined spaces to work on pipes
> and fittings.
> 

Or like Bender.

-- 
Pete

J. Clarke <jclarke...@gmail.com> writes:

> And now we disdain vo-tech as "the dummy track" and don't have
> "commercial" programs at all in most schools.

My town had five highschools: Classical, Tech, Commerce, Trade and
Cathedral.   Only Roman Catholics opted for Cathedral.  The real
dummies went to Trade ubtil they were old enough to drop out.  Those
aiming for cololege/university were urged to choose Classical.

But many of the careers for which Trade, Commerce and Tech were
expected to prepare one no longer exist or have morphed to varying
degrees into computer skills.  Millwright, auto mechanic, machiist,
draughtsman (just for example) now deal heavily with computerized
systems.  Typists, comptometer operators, file clerks inter alia are
reduced by 90% over the last 50 years.

So everybody wants to go to college to ensure they'll get a decent
job.  Adapting to that perspective, both public schools and
colleges/universities (possibly excluding the the elite $75,000 per
annum ones) have watered down their curricula to be digital era
vo-tech.  And people who got all 'A's in high school English arrive at
university unable to write a simple paragraph in correct English.

-- 
Mike Spencer                  Nova Scotia, Canada

On 17 Jul 2018 16:32:13 -0300, Mike Spencer
<mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:

[snip]

>So everybody wants to go to college to ensure they'll get a decent
>job.  Adapting to that perspective, both public schools and
>colleges/universities (possibly excluding the the elite $75,000 per
>annum ones) have watered down their curricula to be digital era
>vo-tech.  And people who got all 'A's in high school English arrive at
>university unable to write a simple paragraph in correct English.

I saw this as far back as 1975. High school grads, straight As, knew
next to nothing. A high school grad from a different nearby town, B
student, knew lots more than the other one.

Not so bad, from the ones I encountered, in the late 1980s when I was
at a 4-year university. But saw a big jump in people who were close to
being illiterate, with high school diplomas, in the early 2000s. Some
in the US military. Some sergeants and some officers.

I used an apparently terribly difficult word a few months ago out in
public. Only my sibling standing nearby had heard the word. The word
was 'sibling'. I had to explain it. To adults. Ages varying from 30s
to 60s.

On Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 12:14:41 PM UTC-6, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2018-07-17, Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> 
> > On Friday, July 13, 2018 at 9:26:20 PM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:
> >
> >> So what?  You can't fix stupid.
> >
> > Nope. But if stupid serves your purposes, you can keep people ignorant.
> 
> "Ignorance is strength."  -- George Orwell
> 
> "Ignorance is bliss - if you're exploiting the ignorant."  -- me
> 
> > For that matter, if you put lead in the water supply, you can even
> > create more stupid.
> 
> Perhaps, but social media are even more effective and can be more
> finely tuned.

I see on YouTube that Russia, unlike the United States, is not hiding the truth 
about Nibiru from its people!

Gee, I'm shaking in my boots.

John Savard

JimP <solo...@gmail.com> writes:
> I saw this as far back as 1975. High school grads, straight As, knew
> next to nothing. A high school grad from a different nearby town, B
> student, knew lots more than the other one.
>
> Not so bad, from the ones I encountered, in the late 1980s when I was
> at a 4-year university. But saw a big jump in people who were close to
> being illiterate, with high school diplomas, in the early 2000s. Some
> in the US military. Some sergeants and some officers.
>
> I used an apparently terribly difficult word a few months ago out in
> public. Only my sibling standing nearby had heard the word. The word
> was 'sibling'. I had to explain it. To adults. Ages varying from 30s
> to 60s.

I've mentioned before doing some work with major large mid-western state
university that said they had "dumbed down" material for entering
freshmen three times in the period 1970 through mid-90s (about once a
decade making freshman material increasingly "dumb")
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002k.html#45 How will current AI/robot stories play when AIs are real?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003i.html#28 Offshore IT
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005e.html#48 Mozilla v Firefox
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006p.html#23 SAT Reading and Math Scores Show Decline
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007j.html#51 IBM Unionization
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008e.html#37 was: 1975 movie "Three Days of the Condor" tech stuff
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011n.html#18 Great Brian Arthur article on the Second Economy
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012g.html#75 Monopoly/ Cartons of Punch Cards
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2017d.html#27 US Education

also that in the early 90s, there were studies (including information
from 1990 census) that half of the 18 year olds were functionally
illiterate
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005g.html#43 Academic priorities
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007g.html#7 U.S. Cedes Top Spot in Global IT Competitiveness
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007n.html#68 Poll: oldest computer thing you still use
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007v.html#29 folklore indeed
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008.html#39 competitiveness
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008s.html#20 Five great technological revolutions
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009o.html#67 I would like to understand the professional job market in US. Is it shrinking?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009s.html#43 Larrabee delayed: anyone know what's happening?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010.html#38 Happy DEC-10 Day
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010q.html#69 No command, and control
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011.html#80 Chinese and Indian Entrepreneurs Are Eating America's Lunch
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011k.html#48 50th anniversary of BASIC, COBOL?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011l.html#36 The Next Convergence: The Future of Economic Growth in a Multispeed World
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011p.html#125 UC-Berkeley and other 'public Ivies' in fiscal peril
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012h.html#18 How do you feel about the fact that India has more employees than US?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012k.html#36 Race Against the Machine
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014h.html#32 How Comp-Sci went from passing fad to must have major
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015h.html#4 Decimal point character and billions
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015h.html#5 Decimal point character and billions

-- 
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

On Mon, 16 Jul 2018 20:46:10 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
<jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

>On Monday, July 16, 2018 at 8:29:12 PM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:
>
>> And now we disdain vo-tech as "the dummy track" and don't have
>> "commercial" programs at all in most schools.
>
>What's the point of teaching kids to do jobs that either are done in China or are 
>done by computers? The educational system can't take the place of the economy.

When carpenters,  plumbers, electricians, mechanics, gardeners,
arborists, etc can do their work from China with computers get back to
me.

Seems that not only have you never actually met a woman but you've
also never owned a house or a car, or you would know how much work
needs local hands-on.

On 17 Jul 2018 16:32:13 -0300, Mike Spencer
<mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:

>
>J. Clarke <jclarke...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> And now we disdain vo-tech as "the dummy track" and don't have
>> "commercial" programs at all in most schools.
>
>My town had five highschools: Classical, Tech, Commerce, Trade and
>Cathedral.   Only Roman Catholics opted for Cathedral.  The real
>dummies went to Trade ubtil they were old enough to drop out.  Those
>aiming for cololege/university were urged to choose Classical.
>
>But many of the careers for which Trade, Commerce and Tech were
>expected to prepare one no longer exist or have morphed to varying
>degrees into computer skills.  Millwright, auto mechanic, machiist,
>draughtsman (just for example) now deal heavily with computerized
>systems.  Typists, comptometer operators, file clerks inter alia are
>reduced by 90% over the last 50 years.
>
>So everybody wants to go to college to ensure they'll get a decent
>job.  Adapting to that perspective, both public schools and
>colleges/universities (possibly excluding the the elite $75,000 per
>annum ones) have watered down their curricula to be digital era
>vo-tech.  And people who got all 'A's in high school English arrive at
>university unable to write a simple paragraph in correct English.

And people who got "computer science" degrees from fairly prestigious
colleges so that they can get good jobs are shocked when they find
that their employer expects them to know how to write code.

That one deals with computerized systems doesn't mean that the skill
is in the computer.  It's a tool  You learn how to use it.  And you
aren't going to get those skills in a typical four-year college.

J. Clarke <jclarke...@gmail.com> writes:
>On 17 Jul 2018 16:32:13 -0300, Mike Spencer
><mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:

>And people who got "computer science" degrees from fairly prestigious
>colleges so that they can get good jobs are shocked when they find
>that their employer expects them to know how to write code.

More bullshit from Clarke.

On Tue, 17 Jul 2018 12:32:27 +0100
Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:

> On Tue, 17 Jul 2018 10:36:19 -0000 (UTC)
> "Kerr-Mudd,John" <nots...@invalid.org> wrote:
> 
> > Think small. a heap of nanobots could repair a leak from the /inside/.
> 
> 	Nanobots is pushing it, but I could imagine something specialised
> that could get inside half inch pipes to find leaks and fit patches being
> quite feasible today - initially plumbers would carry some in their
> toolbox for fixing leaks under the slab and similarly inconvenient places.

	Looks like someone else has similar thoughts for something a little
trickier than domestic plumbing.

<https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/17/rolls-royce-is-developing-tiny-cockroach-robots-to-fix-airplane-engines.html>

	The snake robots are an interesting approach.

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN                                     | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:

> <https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/17/rolls-royce-is-developing-tiny-cockroach-robots-to-fix-airplane-engines.html>

Is that "Rolls Royce is developing" or "Rolls Royce is letting an art 
student dream"?

The animations I saw a day or two ago suggested the latter

<https://vimeo.com/album/5297916>

On Fri, 20 Jul 2018 09:20:57 +0100
Andy Burns <use...@andyburns.uk> wrote:

> Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> 
> > <https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/17/rolls-royce-is-developing-tiny-cockroach-robots-to-fix-airplane-engines.html>
> 
> Is that "Rolls Royce is developing" or "Rolls Royce is letting an art 
> student dream"?

	More like "Rolls Royce are supporting Harvard and Nottingham
working on small robots that they hope to be able to use one day." and art
students are creating impressions of what they might look like.

> The animations I saw a day or two ago suggested the latter
> 
> <https://vimeo.com/album/5297916>

	Both are happening, compare the photos of the prototypes with the
picture at the top of futurism's typical gushing article:

https://futurism.com/cockroach-robots-rolls-royce/

	The barely mentioned snake robot sounds like the most practical
approach but robot endoscopes aren't going to be photogenic even in a Pixar
animation.

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN                                     | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

On Tuesday, in article
     <9e6ade0d-c70e-4666...@googlegroups.com>
     jsa...@ecn.ab.ca "Quadibloc" wrote:

> On Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 6:30:30 AM UTC-6, Bob Eager wrote:
> 
>> On Tue, 17 Jul 2018 11:28:52 +0000, Huge wrote:
>>> Isn't Raquel Welch a tad ... old ... to be doing plumbing?    :o)
> 
> He wrote that? Why isn't his post visible?
> 
> I see your earlier post, and then I see your post quoting this. But
> the post you're quoting is not recorded on Google Groups (formerly
> DejaNews).

Water under the bridge a bit now, but Huge puts "X-No-Archive: Yes" in
his headers, which prevents Google Groups from retaining them.  It used
to keep them for a few days before deleting them, but the retention
period seems to be a lot shorter now (it may even be zero) -- I'm
surprised you can see any of his posts!  One of the perils of not using
a proper newsfeed.

-- 
Simon Turner                                    DoD #0461
si...@twoplaces.co.uk
    Trust me -- I know what I'm doing!          -- Sledge Hammer

On Fri, 20 Jul 2018 07:59:23 GMT, Ahem A Rivet's Shot
<ste...@eircom.net> wrote: 

> On Tue, 17 Jul 2018 12:32:27 +0100
> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
> 
>> On Tue, 17 Jul 2018 10:36:19 -0000 (UTC)
>> "Kerr-Mudd,John" <nots...@invalid.org> wrote:
>> 
>> > Think small. a heap of nanobots could repair a leak from the
>> > /inside/. 
>> 
>>      Nanobots is pushing it, but I could imagine something
>>      specialised 
>> that could get inside half inch pipes to find leaks and fit patches
>> being quite feasible today - initially plumbers would carry some in
>> their toolbox for fixing leaks under the slab and similarly
>> inconvenient places. 
> 
>      Looks like someone else has similar thoughts for something a
>      little 
> trickier than domestic plumbing.
> 
> <https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/17/rolls-royce-is-developing-tiny-cockroa
> ch-robots-to-fix-airplane-engines.html> 
> 
>      The snake robots are an interesting approach.
> 
Will it be programmed in Parseltongue?


-- 
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.

On 21/07/2018 12:42, Kerr-Mudd,John wrote:
> On Fri, 20 Jul 2018 07:59:23 GMT, Ahem A Rivet's Shot
> <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
> 
>> On Tue, 17 Jul 2018 12:32:27 +0100
>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 17 Jul 2018 10:36:19 -0000 (UTC)
>>> "Kerr-Mudd,John" <nots...@invalid.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Think small. a heap of nanobots could repair a leak from the
>>>> /inside/.
>>>
>>>       Nanobots is pushing it, but I could imagine something
>>>       specialised
>>> that could get inside half inch pipes to find leaks and fit patches
>>> being quite feasible today - initially plumbers would carry some in
>>> their toolbox for fixing leaks under the slab and similarly
>>> inconvenient places.
>>
>>       Looks like someone else has similar thoughts for something a
>>       little
>> trickier than domestic plumbing.
>>
>> <https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/17/rolls-royce-is-developing-tiny-cockroa
>> ch-robots-to-fix-airplane-engines.html>
>>
>>       The snake robots are an interesting approach.
>>
> Will it be programmed in Parseltongue?
> 
> 

Or on the PDP8, because although lacking many instructions,
it did, at least, have an Adder.

(But only 12 bits, so just a TAD)

On Sat, 21 Jul 2018 11:42:28 -0000 (UTC)
"Kerr-Mudd,John" <nots...@invalid.org> wrote:

> On Fri, 20 Jul 2018 07:59:23 GMT, Ahem A Rivet's Shot
> <ste...@eircom.net> wrote: 

> >      The snake robots are an interesting approach.
> > 
> Will it be programmed in Parseltongue?

	That or Python.

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN                                     | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

On Fri, 20 Jul 2018 14:56:54 +0100 (BST), si...@twoplaces.co.uk (Simon Turner)
wrote:
>On Tuesday, in article
>     <9e6ade0d-c70e-4666...@googlegroups.com>
>     jsa...@ecn.ab.ca "Quadibloc" wrote:
>
>> On Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 6:30:30 AM UTC-6, Bob Eager wrote:
>> 
>>> On Tue, 17 Jul 2018 11:28:52 +0000, Huge wrote:
>>>> Isn't Raquel Welch a tad ... old ... to be doing plumbing?    :o)
>> 
>> He wrote that? Why isn't his post visible?
>> 
>> I see your earlier post, and then I see your post quoting this. But
>> the post you're quoting is not recorded on Google Groups (formerly
>> DejaNews).
>
>Water under the bridge a bit now, but Huge puts "X-No-Archive: Yes" in
>his headers, which prevents Google Groups from retaining them.  It used
>to keep them for a few days before deleting them, but the retention
>period seems to be a lot shorter now (it may even be zero) -- I'm
>surprised you can see any of his posts!  One of the perils of not using
>a proper newsfeed.

Does it keep Google Groups from retaining them, or merely keep Google Groups
from displaying them to the outside world?  I have my doubts that Google would
willingly delete any data, just as there's no way to stop me from keeping Huge's
posts that I download from a proper newsfeed.

If you knew my Truename (hat tip Vernor Vinge), and Google Groups' search
function was working correctly that day, you could find Usenet posts I made over
thirty years ago that have been resurrected from old system backup tapes that
included newsfeeds of the day.  That lesson is one reason (of many) why I don't
do that Facepage thing.

Usenet posts used  to be considered ephemeral; now they're eternal -- even ones
made many years before Dejanews, let alone Google Groups.

On 22 Jul 2018 09:19:03 GMT, Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
>On 2018-07-21, Questor <usenet@only.tnx> wrote:
>> Usenet posts used  to be considered ephemeral; now they're eternal -- even ones
>> made many years before Dejanews, let alone Google Groups.
>
>It has always been safest to assume that the Internet is forever.

Always?  No.  It's obviously true now, but almost no one thought that way
25 years ago, let alone 30+ years ago.  Storage and bandwidth limitations were
still very much an issue then.

In article <5b537e2d...@news.dslextreme.com>,
Questor <usenet@only.tnx> wrote:
>Usenet posts used  to be considered ephemeral; now they're eternal -- even ones
>made many years before Dejanews, let alone Google Groups.

They were only ephemeral because we didn't have enough disk space to
keep them all.  The more disk you had, the more you kept.  There were
usenet sites fed by magtape, and I always assumed they kept the tapes.

As others have noted, the fact that we have archives back to 1981
tells us that *someone* was always keeping them.


-- 
Regards,
John Levine, jo...@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

On Fri, 27 Jul 2018, John Levine wrote:

> In article <5b537e2d...@news.dslextreme.com>,
> Questor <usenet@only.tnx> wrote:
>> Usenet posts used  to be considered ephemeral; now they're eternal -- even ones
>> made many years before Dejanews, let alone Google Groups.
>
> They were only ephemeral because we didn't have enough disk space to
> keep them all.  The more disk you had, the more you kept.  There were
> usenet sites fed by magtape, and I always assumed they kept the tapes.
>
I have some messages going back to 1996, things I thought were interesting 
enough to save, or messages I intended to reply to, but never did.  Not 
really an "archive" but that was how simple it was to keep messages. 
Actually, when we had a "freenet" here in Montreal in 1996, there was a 
newsgroup only there, and I did archive the whole four months of 
operation.

> As others have noted, the fact that we have archives back to 1981
> tells us that *someone* was always keeping them.

It was google that made the effort to find old archives.  I think some of 
it was related to specific newsgroups, so some one or place would archive 
a newsgroup they thought were valuable.  But I suspect yes, there wasn't 
an online archive going back to 1981, it was saved to tape and somehow the 
tape was never reused.   Maybe in the early days someone did set out to 
archive, the traffic was low enough that someone might.  But until 
dejanews started a public archive, usenet really was seen as "temporary". 
It's hard to believe that it's 22 or 23 years since dejanews came along, 
which is now longer than the time between the start of usenet, if we use 
1981, and dejanew's arrival in 1995 or 1996.

   Michael

Michael Black <mbl...@pubnix.net> writes:
> It was google that made the effort to find old archives.  I think some
> of it was related to specific newsgroups, so some one or place would
> archive a newsgroup they thought were valuable.  But I suspect yes,
> there wasn't an online archive going back to 1981, it was saved to
> tape and somehow the tape was never reused.   Maybe in the early days
> someone did set out to archive, the traffic was low enough that
> someone might.  But until dejanews started a public archive, usenet
> really was seen as "temporary". It's hard to believe that it's 22 or
> 23 years since dejanews came along, which is now longer than the time
> between the start of usenet, if we use 1981, and dejanew's arrival in
> 1995 or 1996.

there is TYMSHARE's
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tymshare

CMS-based online computer conferencing from the early 70s ... and
started making it free to (IBM user group) SHARE as VMSHARE in AUG1976,
archives now at
http://vm.marist.edu/~vmshare

I had also cut a deal with TYMSHARE to get monthly tape dump of all
VMSHARE files to putting up on internal network and services (including
world wide virtual machine based online sales & marketing HONE system).
A major hurdle was overcoming lawyers who were afraid that employees
would be contaminated with customer information.

misc. old vmshare related email
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/lhwemail.html#vmshare
archived HONE (&/or APL) related posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#hone

trivia: after MD bought TYMSHARE
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tymshare#Tymshare_sold_to_McDonnell_Douglas
VMSHARE was migrated to McGill University ... old post reference
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006w.html#42 vmshare

and corporate sponsored university BITNET (bitnet used same technology
as internal network, originally from co-worder at science center)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BITNET
archived BITNET related posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#bitnet

early 90s, pagesat was doing usenet feed over satellite. I got "free"
feed for doing ms/dos and unix drivers (also co-authored article for
boardwatch magazine) ... original feed was 9.6kbit ... but image files
on usenet was increasing and they doubled feed to 19.2kbit. Old picture
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/pagesat.jpg

pagesat usenet feed discussion group
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/biz.pagesat

past posts mentioning boardwatch article
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#38 Vanishing Posts...
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000e.html#39 I'll Be! Al Gore DID Invent the Internet After All ! NOT
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001h.html#66 UUCP email
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005l.html#16 Newsgroups (Was Another OS/390 to z/OS 1.4 migration
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006m.html#11 An Out-of-the-Main Activity
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007n.html#17 What if phone company had developed Internet?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007p.html#16 Newsweek article--baby boomers and computers
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008m.html#19 IBM-MAIN longevity
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009j.html#19 Another one bites the dust
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009p.html#84 Anyone going to Supercomputers '09 in Portland?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009r.html#74 bulletin board
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010c.html#75 Posts missing from ibm-main on google groups
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012b.html#92 The PC industry is heading for collapse
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013l.html#26 Anyone here run UUCP?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014b.html#67 Royal Pardon For Turing
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014e.html#38 Before the Internet: The golden age of online services
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015d.html#57 email security re: hotmail.com
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015h.html#109 25 Years: How the Web began
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2016g.html#59 The Forgotten World of BBS Door Games - Slideshow from PCMag.com
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2017b.html#21 Pre-internet email and usenet (was Re: How to choose the best news server for this newsgroup in 40tude Dialog?)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2017g.html#51 Stopping the Internet of noise
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2017h.html#110 private thread drift--Re: Demolishing the Tile Turtle

-- 
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

Michael Black <mbl...@pubnix.net> writes:
>On Fri, 27 Jul 2018, John Levine wrote:
>
>> In article <5b537e2d...@news.dslextreme.com>,
>> Questor <usenet@only.tnx> wrote:
>>> Usenet posts used  to be considered ephemeral; now they're eternal -- even ones
>>> made many years before Dejanews, let alone Google Groups.
>>
>> They were only ephemeral because we didn't have enough disk space to
>> keep them all.  The more disk you had, the more you kept.  There were
>> usenet sites fed by magtape, and I always assumed they kept the tapes.
>>
>I have some messages going back to 1996, things I thought were interesting 
>enough to save, or messages I intended to reply to, but never did.  Not 
>really an "archive" but that was how simple it was to keep messages. 
>Actually, when we had a "freenet" here in Montreal in 1996, there was a 
>newsgroup only there, and I did archive the whole four months of 
>operation.

So, I wonder if anyone preserved the Plato Notes postings from the 70's
and early 80's?

On Fri, 27 Jul 2018 11:52:26 -0400, Michael Black <mbl...@pubnix.net>
wrote:

>On Fri, 27 Jul 2018, John Levine wrote:
>
>> In article <5b537e2d...@news.dslextreme.com>,
>> Questor <usenet@only.tnx> wrote:
>>> Usenet posts used  to be considered ephemeral; now they're eternal -- even ones
>>> made many years before Dejanews, let alone Google Groups.
>>
>> They were only ephemeral because we didn't have enough disk space to
>> keep them all.  The more disk you had, the more you kept.  There were
>> usenet sites fed by magtape, and I always assumed they kept the tapes.
>>
>I have some messages going back to 1996, things I thought were interesting 
>enough to save, or messages I intended to reply to, but never did.  Not 
>really an "archive" but that was how simple it was to keep messages. 
>Actually, when we had a "freenet" here in Montreal in 1996, there was a 
>newsgroup only there, and I did archive the whole four months of 
>operation.
>
>> As others have noted, the fact that we have archives back to 1981
>> tells us that *someone* was always keeping them.
>
>It was google that made the effort to find old archives.  I think some of 
>it was related to specific newsgroups, so some one or place would archive 
>a newsgroup they thought were valuable.  But I suspect yes, there wasn't 
>an online archive going back to 1981, it was saved to tape and somehow the 
>tape was never reused.   Maybe in the early days someone did set out to 
>archive, the traffic was low enough that someone might.  But until 
>dejanews started a public archive, usenet really was seen as "temporary". 
>It's hard to believe that it's 22 or 23 years since dejanews came along, 
>which is now longer than the time between the start of usenet, if we use 
>1981, and dejanew's arrival in 1995 or 1996.
>
>   Michael

I was on usenet newsgroups about 1992. Here and about 3 others. Before
that, about 1990, I was briefly on a newsfeed sent over to bitnet... I
am not certain of the exact configuration. My account in 1990 was
Bitnet, and likely I received this and one other newsgroup as a
digest.

On Fri, 27 Jul 2018 15:40:41 -0000 (UTC), John Levine <jo...@taugh.com> wrote:
>In article <5b537e2d...@news.dslextreme.com>,
>Questor <usenet@only.tnx> wrote:
>>Usenet posts used  to be considered ephemeral; now they're eternal -- even ones
>>made many years before Dejanews, let alone Google Groups.
>
>They were only ephemeral because we didn't have enough disk space to
>keep them all.  The more disk you had, the more you kept.  There were
>usenet sites fed by magtape, and I always assumed they kept the tapes.

I have never heard of sites getting their newsfeed via magtape, but I suppose it
is possible.  That certainly would greatly increase the propagation time.  Most
sites, particularly "leaf" nodes, got their newsgroups (and e-mail) via
1200-baud modems over POTS lines, calling overnight to reduce connection
charges.


>As others have noted, the fact that we have archives back to 1981
>tells us that *someone* was always keeping them.

A more likely explanation is that they found full system backups, and restored
the news spool from them.

In article <5b649d7a...@news.dslextreme.com>,
Questor <usenet@only.tnx> wrote:
>>They were only ephemeral because we didn't have enough disk space to
>>keep them all.  The more disk you had, the more you kept.  There were
>>usenet sites fed by magtape, and I always assumed they kept the tapes.
>
>I have never heard of sites getting their newsfeed via magtape, but I suppose it
>is possible.

It definitely happened, I knew the guy who made the tapes.  It was a
government agency that didn't want any live connections between their
computers and the outside.  The tapes probably slowed things down by a
few days but in that era it wasn't a big deal.

>>As others have noted, the fact that we have archives back to 1981
>>tells us that *someone* was always keeping them.
>
>A more likely explanation is that they found full system backups, and restored
>the news spool from them.

Possibly.  I have full archives of comp.compilers because I'm the
moderator.




-- 
Regards,
John Levine, jo...@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

On Fri, 3 Aug 2018, John Levine wrote:

> In article <5b649d7a...@news.dslextreme.com>,
> Questor <usenet@only.tnx> wrote:
>>> They were only ephemeral because we didn't have enough disk space to
>>> keep them all.  The more disk you had, the more you kept.  There were
>>> usenet sites fed by magtape, and I always assumed they kept the tapes.
>>
>> I have never heard of sites getting their newsfeed via magtape, but I suppose it
>> is possible.
>
> It definitely happened, I knew the guy who made the tapes.  It was a
> government agency that didn't want any live connections between their
> computers and the outside.  The tapes probably slowed things down by a
> few days but in that era it wasn't a big deal.
>
Even circa 1995, on a computer BBS, I can remember replies appearing 
before the original message.  It seemed to improve a lot in the next few 
years, but  I do recall even that late noticing a sluggishness that was 
probably much worse in the early days.

I remember in the early nineties someone mentioning they were reading the 
ham radio newsgroups via floppy disc, someone with usenet access would 
copy a batch of messages, and then pass out the floppies at the local ham 
club.  Read only, but if you didn't have access, better than nothing.  I 
suppose that's too late to have value as an archive, but so long as that 
sort of thing was happening, it probably did result in dusty boxes full of 
old messages, an inadvertent archive.


>>> As others have noted, the fact that we have archives back to 1981
>>> tells us that *someone* was always keeping them.
>>
>> A more likely explanation is that they found full system backups, and restored
>> the news spool from them.
>
> Possibly.  I have full archives of comp.compilers because I'm the
> moderator.
>
It's much easier to imagine an archive like that, to a specific 
newsgroup. Someone is interested in the topic, so they proceed to archive 
it.

But when google announced they had messages goimg back to 1981, I think it 
was from finding a reasonably full archive, and I ssupect it was because 
of backup tapes rather than deliberate archiving.

   Michael

John Levine <jo...@taugh.com> writes:
> It definitely happened, I knew the guy who made the tapes.  It was a
> government agency that didn't want any live connections between their
> computers and the outside.  The tapes probably slowed things down by a
> few days but in that era it wasn't a big deal.

similar to tapes I was getting for VMSHARE computer conferencing from
TYMSAHRE (from aug1976), i've mentioned the biggest problem I had was
with IBM lawyers afraid that IBM employees would be contaminated by
customer information ... VMSHARE archive
http://vm.marist.edu/~vmshare

but the pagesat (one-way satellite broadcast receive-only) USENET feed
that I did the unix & ms/dos drivers for their receive-only modem
... which was purely one-way and wouldn't be "live". pc needed to have
16550 UART
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/16550_UART

recent ref:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2018e.html#51 usenet history, was 1958 Crisis in education

in the late 70 & early 80s, I had been blamed for online computer
conferencing on the internal network (larger than arpanet/internet from
just about the beginning until sometime mid=80s). Folklore is that when
corporate executive committee was told about online computer
conferencing (and the internal network), 5of6 wanted to fire me.

One of the outcomes was official computer conferencing application
(recipients could choose between mailing list type of operation or
usenet "server" type of operation) and corporate officially sanctioned
and moderated newsgroups.

bitnet was corporate sponsored university network using similar
technology that was used for internal network (originated at cambridge
science center).  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BITNET

the original bitnet listserv was done 1984 ... effectively, just the
mailing list part of the internal IBM application (TOOLSRUN)

somebody that had spent sabbatical from IBM france at the science cneter
... then is transferred to Paris and tasked with doing EARN (bitnet in
europe) then sent me this email ... looking for online/network-oriented
applications.
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001h.html#email840320

the current (earn/bitnet) listserv was then done in Paris in 1986
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LISTSERV
http://www.lsoft.com/products/listserv-history.asp
http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/technology/2010/08/the_joy_of_listservs.html

internal network posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#internalnet
bitnet posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#bitnet
science center posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#545tech

total topic drift, the listserv slate article for some reason references
this article by James Fallows
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2010/07/on-todays-hot-media-stories-sherrod-journolist/60210/

who happened to have written numerous articles about Boyd and the
military reform movement ... Boyd posts & web URLs
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subboyd.html

-- 
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970