🚀 go-pugleaf

In article <38ep3g$5...@adam.cc.sunysb.edu>, fw...@cs.sunysb.edu (.) writes:
> I was watching some show called 'The computer man' and they had an origin 
> story, and Origin said they shipped their very last Floppy Disk game!  All
> their games are going to be Cd-only forever!  Bwa ha ha haaaaaaaa.
> 
> This was on ABC, Sunday afternoon from 12 noon - 1 pm. just for the record.
> 
> Frank Wang           
> fw...@sbcs.sunysb.edu
> 
> 
> 
> 

yeah, they're going to abandon the sustantial part of the market
that doesn't have to money to keep up with them. Will it work?
Time will tell.

<ppug...@pimacc.pima.edu> wrote:
>In article <38ep3g$5...@adam.cc.sunysb.edu>, fw...@cs.sunysb.edu (.) writes:
>> I was watching some show called 'The computer man' and they had an origin 
>> story, and Origin said they shipped their very last Floppy Disk game!  All
>> their games are going to be Cd-only forever!  Bwa ha ha haaaaaaaa.
>
>yeah, they're going to abandon the sustantial part of the market
>that doesn't have to money to keep up with them. Will it work?
>Time will tell.

   People have been saying this about Origin since they released Wing
Commander.

   "What?! You *need* a 386 for it to be playable? That's ridiculous!
They're abandoning a substantial part of the market. They don't understand
economics - they're going to go bankrupt for sure!"

   Then a funny thing happened. People went and bought 386 computers.

(I still believe that the single biggest reason people bought their first 386
*was* Wing Commander itself! Of course, Origin won't be driving the market for
CD-ROMs in the same way this time. Myst has already done it... :) )

-- 
|    Casey Barton (a guy)    ceba...@napier.uwaterloo.ca    (519)746-9832     |
|                    http://calum.uwaterloo.ca/u/cebarton                      |

In <Cy6wC...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca> ceba...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca (Casey Barton) writes:

>   People have been saying this about Origin since they released Wing
>Commander.

>   "What?! You *need* a 386 for it to be playable? That's ridiculous!
>They're abandoning a substantial part of the market. They don't understand
>economics - they're going to go bankrupt for sure!"

>   Then a funny thing happened. People went and bought 386 computers.

They could put the game on milk boxes for all I care, as long as it plays
well.  Unfortunately Origin has been so caught up in the Nintendo-esque
uninteractive gaming that their recent games, well, suck... 

Doom isn't popular cuz it comes on CD, I don't STILL have Monkey Island
and Tie Fighter on my drives cuz they require Pentium-90's.  They are
fun.  Origin needs some honest people to continously test their new
games instead of brown-nosing insiders.  Ultima 8 was a fiasco, and
Wing Commander Armada isn't all that great (plays sad as a standalone,
only 2 player network?!?). 

-- 
parik rao		         	          pr...@cs.ucsb.edu, r...@rns.com

In article <38ho4p$j...@ren.cs.ucsb.edu>, Parik Rao <pr...@cs.ucsb.edu> wrote:

>They could put the game on milk boxes for all I care, as long as it plays
>well.  Unfortunately Origin has been so caught up in the Nintendo-esque
>uninteractive gaming that their recent games, well, suck... 

	Nintendo-esque?  Not.  Trying to compare something like Strike
Commander or Privateer to a Nintendo game is like trying to compare a
Formula-1 to a Ford Pinto.

TRH Sends

In article <Cy6wC...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca>, ceba...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca (Casey Barton) writes:
> <ppug...@pimacc.pima.edu> wrote:
>>In article <38ep3g$5...@adam.cc.sunysb.edu>, fw...@cs.sunysb.edu (.) writes:
>>> I was watching some show called 'The computer man' and they had an origin 
>>> story, and Origin said they shipped their very last Floppy Disk game!  All
>>> their games are going to be Cd-only forever!  Bwa ha ha haaaaaaaa.
>>
>>yeah, they're going to abandon the sustantial part of the market
>>that doesn't have to money to keep up with them. Will it work?
>>Time will tell.
> 
>    People have been saying this about Origin since they released Wing
> Commander.
> 
>    "What?! You *need* a 386 for it to be playable? That's ridiculous!
> They're abandoning a substantial part of the market. They don't understand
> economics - they're going to go bankrupt for sure!"
> 
>    Then a funny thing happened. People went and bought 386 computers.
> 
> (I still believe that the single biggest reason people bought their first 386
> *was* Wing Commander itself! Of course, Origin won't be driving the market for
> CD-ROMs in the same way this time. Myst has already done it... :) )
> 
> -- 
> |    Casey Barton (a guy)    ceba...@napier.uwaterloo.ca    (519)746-9832     |
> |                    http://calum.uwaterloo.ca/u/cebarton                      |

I think it's somewhat pretentious for Origin to think that a game company
will drive the industry. But whatever happens, they can always say that it
wouldn't have been any different anyways & who can say for sure that it's
not true?

In article <38i49h$l...@apakabar.cc.columbia.edu>,
Tom  Hong <th...@aloha.cc.columbia.edu> wrote:
>In article <38ho4p$j...@ren.cs.ucsb.edu>, Parik Rao <pr...@cs.ucsb.edu> wrote:
[snip]
>>well.  Unfortunately Origin has been so caught up in the Nintendo-esque
>>uninteractive gaming that their recent games, well, suck... 
>	Nintendo-esque?  Not.  Trying to compare something like Strike
>Commander or Privateer to a Nintendo game is like trying to compare a
>Formula-1 to a Ford Pinto.


So...Which one is the Pinto?



Jesse
jmac...@caslon.cs.arizona.edu
CS dept, University of Arizona

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In article <38ho4p$j...@ren.cs.ucsb.edu>, pr...@ren.cs.ucsb.edu (Parik Rao) wrote:
> They could put the game on milk boxes for all I care, as long as it plays
> well.  Unfortunately Origin has been so caught up in the Nintendo-esque
> uninteractive gaming that their recent games, well, suck... 
> 
> Doom isn't popular cuz it comes on CD, I don't STILL have Monkey Island
> and Tie Fighter on my drives cuz they require Pentium-90's.  They are
> fun.  Origin needs some honest people to continously test their new
> games instead of brown-nosing insiders.  Ultima 8 was a fiasco, and
> Wing Commander Armada isn't all that great (plays sad as a standalone,
> only 2 player network?!?). 

Really now?  Doom I and II are on disk.  There is a CD version of Doom 2,
but that really doesn't get you anything extra.  Monkey Island played great
on my old 386.  TIE Fighter runs well on my 486DX2/66.  I understand your
point, but most games do NOT require you to have a Pentium/90.  Most games
(except for Origin's latest games) run well on my system.

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     /  .\    .  directory ftp.netcom.com:/pub/sordsoth   .     .  ./     \   .
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Of course, the cynical way to view this one is that Origin wants to reduce 
piracy to zero -- 
Even if they were to bring back a classic like autoduel, they'd probably 
stuff 200 megs of useless multimedia clips on it, just so people couldn't 
pirate it.
-- a paranoid Adam

In article <38jpqe$8...@caslon.cs.arizona.edu>,
J MacNish <jmac...@CS.Arizona.EDU> wrote:
>>	Nintendo-esque?  Not.  Trying to compare something like Strike
>>Commander or Privateer to a Nintendo game is like trying to compare a
>>Formula-1 to a Ford Pinto.
>
>So...Which one is the Pinto?

	Unless you have seen a flight simulator that works on the Nintendo
with gouraud shading, texture mapping, detailed terrain, plus a whole load
of other features such as cockpit panning and others too numerous to mention
here, I think it's obvious which one is the Pinto.  I could be wrong, but I
don't think I have ever seen a flight-sim for the SuperNES, let alone one
of Strike Commander's caliber.

TRH Sends

Adam Farkas (afa...@umich.edu) wrote:
: Of course, the cynical way to view this one is that Origin wants to reduce 
: piracy to zero -- 
I'm sorry to say it, but piracy will never be reduced to zero

: Even if they were to bring back a classic like autoduel, they'd probably 
: stuff 200 megs of useless multimedia clips on it, just so people couldn't 
: pirate it.
What's wrong with that? They have to try to protect their investment
somehow. And actually with Ultima 8, first their was absolutely no copy
protection, second the manual was about 90% in the actual game with some of
those books that are read, and other stuff. It almost seemed to me that
Origin thought "Well people are going to pirate it, so we might as well put
everything except the install guide and catalog within game."
-- 
.__________________________________________________________________________.
|Internet: pfle...@scu.edu.au                                             |
| One hour from now WING COMMANDER 3 will be one hour closer to release    | 
|__________________________________________________________________________|

afa...@umich.edu (Adam Farkas) writes:
>Of course, the cynical way to view this one is that Origin wants to reduce 
>piracy to zero -- 
>Even if they were to bring back a classic like autoduel, they'd probably 
>stuff 200 megs of useless multimedia clips on it, just so people couldn't 
>pirate it.
>-- a paranoid Adam

	What's the point of even TRYING to pirate games, especially like
Origin's?  You can't play them without the manuals, since the manuals pack so much useful info.
	Just my opinion.

In article <38k64u$p...@apakabar.cc.columbia.edu>,
Tom  Hong <th...@konichiwa.cc.columbia.edu> wrote:
>In article <38jpqe$8...@caslon.cs.arizona.edu>,
>J MacNish <jmac...@CS.Arizona.EDU> wrote:
>>>	Nintendo-esque?  Not.  Trying to compare something like Strike
>>>Commander or Privateer to a Nintendo game is like trying to compare a
>>>Formula-1 to a Ford Pinto.
>>
>>So...Which one is the Pinto?
>
>	Unless you have seen a flight simulator that works on the Nintendo
>with gouraud shading, texture mapping, detailed terrain, plus a whole load
>of other features such as cockpit panning and others too numerous to mention
>here, I think it's obvious which one is the Pinto.  I could be wrong, but I
>don't think I have ever seen a flight-sim for the SuperNES, let alone one
>of Strike Commander's caliber.

I think the point being made here is that although Strike Commander is
undeniably beautiful, it flies very much like a Nintendo game (flight model
was not exactly the primary design goal in Strike Commander).  This is not
a flame, I enjoyed playing SC for a little while, but comparing it to a
Formula 1 racer is a little absurd (well, unless it was a car with a beautiful
paint job, but its engine was out of tune, and the steering was wobbly -- but
this analogy has been pushed too far already, don't you think?  :)

Justin
-- 
Justin Martin Anderson  |  My opinions are my own.  |  The Anderson Hypothesis:
jand...@netcom.com     |  But I'm willing to sell  |        People are stupid.
GSS d H>! s:+ !g p1+ au+ a- w+ v+ C+>++ US+ P- L+ 3 E- N++ K- W M- V-- -po+ Y 
             t+ 5+ j R>+ G? tv b++(+++) D++ B- e++ u** h! f r n- y+

In article <38koj0$a...@harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au> gme...@lindblat.cc.monash.edu.au (GM Enierga) writes:
>From: gme...@lindblat.cc.monash.edu.au (GM Enierga)
>Subject: Re: Origin - CD-only forever!
>Date: 26 Oct 1994 05:14:08 GMT


>        What's the point of even TRYING to pirate games, especially like
>Origin's?  You can't play them without the manuals, since the manuals pack so much useful info.
>        Just my opinion.


Oh, I dunno, I think you can play System Shock without hardly ever looking at 
the manual.  Wings of Glory can't be all that hard.  Even WC Armada is pretty 
easy.

 --- Alan Dunkin

In article <jandersoC...@netcom.com>,
Justin Anderson <jand...@netcom.com> wrote:
>
>I think the point being made here is that although Strike Commander is
>undeniably beautiful, it flies very much like a Nintendo game (flight model
[snip]

	My point was that I haven't seen any games on the NES like that;
therefore one can't really say that it flies much like a Nintendo game. 
Actually I have seen some sort of flying game on the old regular NES (not
the SNES)...  It's a Tomcat game I believe.  Compare that with Strike
Commander and yes it *would* be like comparing a Formula 1 to a Ford Pinto.

TRH Sends

dunk...@utdallas.edu (ALAN V DUNKIN) writes:
>In article <38koj0$a...@harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au> gme...@lindblat.cc.monash.edu.au (GM Enierga) writes:
>>        What's the point of even TRYING to pirate games, especially like
>>Origin's?  You can't play them without the manuals, since the manuals pack so much useful info.
>>        Just my opinion.

>Oh, I dunno, I think you can play System Shock without hardly ever looking at 
>the manual.  Wings of Glory can't be all that hard.  Even WC Armada is pretty 
>easy.
> --- Alan Dunkin

	I haven't bought SS yet, but that will soon change... or should I wait
to see what the CD-ROM version might be like? (I mean just how long can I go
on putting off the purchse of a CD-ROM?)  Armada I am not sure about... I do
NOT have a miniature network in my house.  As for Wings of Glory, now has that
been released yet?  And if it has, is it yet another Pacific Strike?
	So my "opinion" still holds, sorry.

							 - Falcon

I agree.	
With alt-o, alt-h, and shift-?, System Shock has fantastic online help 
features. Unrivalled.
>
>>        What's the point of even TRYING to pirate games, especially like
>>Origin's?  You can't play them without the manuals, since the manuals pack so much useful info.
>>        Just my opinion.
>
>
>Oh, I dunno, I think you can play System Shock without hardly ever looking at 
>the manual.  Wings of Glory can't be all that hard.  Even WC Armada is pretty 
>easy.
>
> --- Alan Dunkin
>

In article <1994Oct25.0...@pimacc.pima.edu>,
 <ppug...@pimacc.pima.edu> wrote:
>In article <Cy6wC...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca>, ceba...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca (Casey Barton) writes:
>> <ppug...@pimacc.pima.edu> wrote:
>>>In article <38ep3g$5...@adam.cc.sunysb.edu>, fw...@cs.sunysb.edu (.) writes:
>>>> I was watching some show called 'The computer man' and they had an origin 
	
	[snip snip]
>
>I think it's somewhat pretentious for Origin to think that a game company
>will drive the industry. But whatever happens, they can always say that it
>wouldn't have been any different anyways & who can say for sure that it's
>not true?
>

	On the contrary.  I think you are too hastily discounting the 
effects the game companies have had (and continue to have) on the 
computer hardware industry.  The so-called serious computer professionals 
who actually _needs_ faster video, greater number crunching power, more 
storage (app servers, CAD designers, computer graphic artists) are 
rather limited in number and probably could not have popularized the 
advances in technology to you and me.  Without gaming industry, the 
average game machine of today (486/66, 8 meg RAM, some sort of local bus 
video, ideally. proabbaly more like 486/33 or below) would be esoteric 
"power" machines as obscure to you and me as high powered Silicon 
Graphic's Mips powered workstation.  In short, the gaming industry 
probably did all of us a favor, as far as making high performance 
machines more popular and accesible.  Not bad for "pretentious" game 
companies.

						--C h a e
-- 
E-mail: pala...@p.imap.itd.umich.edu     | finger pala...@umich.edu
	cha...@engin.umich.edu            | for more info. :)
 
	CBR900RR + Yoshimura prep + Arai + full leather = Happy Chae :)

	Unfortunatly, what most people are forgetyting is that Origin is 
owned by EA, which was once ran by Trip Hawkins, who also founded 3DO.   
Most likely the main reason behind this Origin is CD-ROM forever bit is 
because of this.   Also, I expect the gameplay to be a lot less complex 
on WCIII then previous games, so that those who own a 3DO don't get 
confused.   They are not the type used to reading the manual before play, 
they just want to drop in the game, and off they go.

IF anyone here thinks Origin/EA is gonna allow the former depth that 
existed in Origin games to continue in their new PC/3DO videowares, 
you're mistaken.   Armada has lousy gameplay, U8 is just plain bad, and 
Privateer wasn't that good.     WCIII is not going to be much more than a 
movie, with combat sequences ran by a bad combat engine, if it's anything 
like the one in Armada.


--
=============================================================================
|Eric Harding                  |All opinions are my own.  No one  elses.    |
|E-MAIL=har...@pnw.net        |If you take it seriously, you deserve to.   |
=============================================================================
|Omega Supreme@Transformers    | FUN! FUN! FUN!                             |
|Colus@IRC                     | In the SUN! SUN! SUN!                      |
=============================================================================
| Yamato. Macross.  Gundam.  Remember when anime was GOOD?  Cut out the     |
|cute crap.  Give me a real storyline instead of the same generic females   |
|ripping off clothes, and attacking the monster of the OVA.                 |
=============================================================================

In article <391gii$h...@cascade.pnw.net>, har...@pnw.net (Eric Harding) wrote:
> IF anyone here thinks Origin/EA is gonna allow the former depth that 
> existed in Origin games to continue in their new PC/3DO videowares, 
> you're mistaken.   Armada has lousy gameplay, U8 is just plain bad, and 
> Privateer wasn't that good.     WCIII is not going to be much more than a 
> movie, with combat sequences ran by a bad combat engine, if it's anything 
> like the one in Armada.

I think this is the most unfounded statement I have ever heard... While I
can't comment on the Armada/Privateer, I know that although U8 had an
arcade engine, it still had a very rich and detailed world...

And System Shock, Origin's most recent game is probably the best Single
Person RPG I have seen... Interact with the entire enviroment, Runs great on
my 486/33 w 8Meg.

Origin may just be experiencing growing pains, but don't discount them
just yet...

In article <391c43$n...@srvr1.engin.umich.edu>,
Chae Hon An <cha...@engin.umich.edu> wrote:
>In article <1994Oct25.0...@pimacc.pima.edu>,
> <ppug...@pimacc.pima.edu> wrote:
>>In article <Cy6wC...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca>, ceba...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca (Casey Barton) writes:
>>> <ppug...@pimacc.pima.edu> wrote:
>>>>In article <38ep3g$5...@adam.cc.sunysb.edu>, fw...@cs.sunysb.edu (.) writes:
>>>>> I was watching some show called 'The computer man' and they had an origin 
>	
>	[snip snip]
>>
>>I think it's somewhat pretentious for Origin to think that a game company
>>will drive the industry. But whatever happens, they can always say that it
>>wouldn't have been any different anyways & who can say for sure that it's
>>not true?
>>
>
>	On the contrary.  I think you are too hastily discounting the 
>effects the game companies have had (and continue to have) on the 
>computer hardware industry.  The so-called serious computer professionals 
>who actually _needs_ faster video, greater number crunching power, more 
>storage (app servers, CAD designers, computer graphic artists) are 
>rather limited in number and probably could not have popularized the 
>advances in technology to you and me.  Without gaming industry, the 
>average game machine of today (486/66, 8 meg RAM, some sort of local bus 
>video, ideally. proabbaly more like 486/33 or below) would be esoteric 
>"power" machines as obscure to you and me as high powered Silicon 
>Graphic's Mips powered workstation.  In short, the gaming industry 
>probably did all of us a favor, as far as making high performance 
>machines more popular and accesible.  Not bad for "pretentious" game 
>companies.

I'm sorry to say so but you are very much mistaken.  The computer Hardware 
industry, like any other, is driven by money.  And I hate to break it to 
you, but the amount of money us gamers spend on hardware is chickenfeed 
compared to what companies do.  And your average company does use the 
horsepower required by the most demanding.  We're not talking about dictating 
a letter on a DOS wordprocessor; we're talking about running Powerpoint and 
Word off the network and putting together a 90 page graphical presentation.
That is what non-CADers, non-graphic artists, do (among other things) on 
their computers today.  

>
>						--C h a e
>-- 
>E-mail: pala...@p.imap.itd.umich.edu     | finger pala...@umich.edu
>	cha...@engin.umich.edu            | for more info. :)
> 
>	CBR900RR + Yoshimura prep + Arai + full leather = Happy Chae :)

Nice bike! :)

Matt

In addition ot Origin, Sierra has also already (or will very soon) 
switched over to CD only stuff.  They have been "warning" us for a long 
time that they would do this.  I hadn't heard of Origin doing it too, though.

******************************************************************************
           Darn it!  I can't think of what it was I wanted to put in 
           my sig file.  That's CRS syndrome for ya.  Oh, well.

                                                  Sincerely,

   email:                                       Zyxt, Joe, etc...
   jre...@oboe.calpoly.edu
******************************************************************************

In article <38nf7t$g...@harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au> gme...@lindblat.cc.monash.edu.au (GM Enierga) writes:
>From: gme...@lindblat.cc.monash.edu.au (GM Enierga)
>Subject: Re: Origin - CD-only forever!
>Date: 27 Oct 1994 05:53:01 GMT

>        I haven't bought SS yet, but that will soon change... or should I wait
>to see what the CD-ROM version might be like? (I mean just how long can I go
>on putting off the purchse of a CD-ROM?)  Armada I am not sure about... I do
>NOT have a miniature network in my house.  As for Wings of Glory, now has that
>been released yet?  And if it has, is it yet another Pacific Strike?

Buy the CD version of System Shock.. it'll be SVGA, spoken text... all that 
good stuff.

What makes you think you need a network to run Armada, other than to have some 
real fun?  :)

 ---- Alan Dunkin

Chris Szurgot (szu...@infi.net) wrote:
: In article <391gii$h...@cascade.pnw.net>, har...@pnw.net (Eric Harding) wrote:
: > IF anyone here thinks Origin/EA is gonna allow the former depth that 
: > existed in Origin games to continue in their new PC/3DO videowares, 
: > you're mistaken.   Armada has lousy gameplay, U8 is just plain bad, and 
: > Privateer wasn't that good.     WCIII is not going to be much more than a 
: > movie, with combat sequences ran by a bad combat engine, if it's anything 
: > like the one in Armada.

: I think this is the most unfounded statement I have ever heard... While I
: can't comment on the Armada/Privateer, I know that although U8 had an
: arcade engine, it still had a very rich and detailed world...

: And System Shock, Origin's most recent game is probably the best Single
: Person RPG I have seen... Interact with the entire enviroment, Runs great on
: my 486/33 w 8Meg.

System Shock was an out-of-house game, so was Ultima Underworld I and
II.  U8 Wingcomander Series, Strike comander, etc were all in-house.  As
far as I'm consered that last time there was a good inhouse games from
Origin it was Ultima 6. over 5 years if I remeber correctly, and i
expect it to be the same for a while.  However I have no doubt that they
 will continue to have games with excellent graphics.  not much gameplay
tho.


Will

: Origin may just be experiencing growing pains, but don't discount them
: just yet...

szu...@infi.net (Chris Szurgot) writes:
>In article <391gii$h...@cascade.pnw.net>, har...@pnw.net (Eric Harding) wrote:
>> IF anyone here thinks Origin/EA is gonna allow the former depth that 
>> existed in Origin games to continue in their new PC/3DO videowares, 
>> you're mistaken.   Armada has lousy gameplay, U8 is just plain bad, and 
>> Privateer wasn't that good.     WCIII is not going to be much more than a 
>> movie, with combat sequences ran by a bad combat engine, if it's anything 
>> like the one in Armada.

>I think this is the most unfounded statement I have ever heard... While I
>can't comment on the Armada/Privateer, I know that although U8 had an
>arcade engine, it still had a very rich and detailed world...

	Erm... I am not sure on your views; It does make a whole lot of sense
what Eric wrote: how many GOOD games has Origin made after EA overtook it?
And don't tell me it DIDN'T.  EA owns Origin in everything but its name, I
think.  As for U8... it might be a rich and detailed world, but so is the
Privateer world.  Unfortunately the game is just plain bad.
	If what Eric said DOES turn out to be true, that WC3 is going to be
a glorified shootem'up without the depth that WC and WCII had, then it WILL
spell the end of Origin, based on their current track record.  I for one, who
am so fanatical regarding the WC games and was so disappointed with Armada
and Academy, will not buy the game if it does turn out so bad.  Video clips
do not make a game for me; the game play does.  On the other hand if WC3 IS
the game most are expecting to be, then I will buy a CD-ROM, finally.
	And I do not think I am the only one in this world who thinks along
these same lines.  I guess one could describe it as "crunch-time" for Origin.


>And System Shock, Origin's most recent game is probably the best Single
>Person RPG I have seen... Interact with the entire enviroment, Runs great on
>my 486/33 w 8Meg.

	Nope - totally wrong.  It is not an Origin game, it is a LOOKING-GLASS
TECHNOLOGIES game.  It just so happens that they work for Origin which in turn
works for EA.
	Think about it: the "not" L.G.Tech. people brought out BAD games like
PS, Privateer, etc.  The L.G.T. people brought out SS.  Mere coincidense? ;-)

						- Falcon


>Origin may just be experiencing growing pains, but don't discount them
>just yet...

jhen...@jonh.wimsey.com (John Henders) writes:
>In <391j64$6...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> j-h...@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (James Hogan) writes:
>>har...@pnw.net (Eric Harding) writes:
>>>Privateer wasn't that good.     WCIII is not going to be much more than a 
>>>movie, with combat sequences ran by a bad combat engine, if it's anything 
>>>like the one in Armada.

>>It's amazing how people continue to jump to conclusions when they haven't
>>seen the game, especially when all the information they've released about
>>the game so far indicates that it very well may not be that way... 

>	At least the conclusions are backed by a bit of past history,
>where all your expectations have to rely on is media hype.
>                  John Henders - Wimsey Information Services

	Exactly.  How many times has Origin's pre-hype proved them wrong
when the actual game eventually came out?  Didn't Strike Commander's
history work along these same lines?
:-(

					- Falcon

I've done this one, several times.  But I installed a new CD drive and 
then re-installed T7G.  I can't solve it again!!!   Help :)

Thanks, This is driving me nutz  :)

Leith

sa...@pentagon.io.com (salem) writes:
>I agree.	
>With alt-o, alt-h, and shift-?, System Shock has fantastic online help 
>features. Unrivalled.

>>>        What's the point of even TRYING to pirate games, especially like
>>>Origin's?  You can't play them without the manuals, since the manuals pack so much useful info.
>>>        Just my opinion.

>>Oh, I dunno, I think you can play System Shock without hardly ever looking at 
>>the manual.  Wings of Glory can't be all that hard.  Even WC Armada is pretty 
>>easy.
>> --- Alan Dunkin
>>

	But even with System Shock, it never tells you on the screen ANYWHERE
how to activate the Fragmantation Grenade.  Had to go to the manual for that
one.  And since I am still on level 1, (not even near the end, I don't think)
I believe there are more little tricks like that spread throughout the entire
game.  Yet another example: those items you pick up which seem utterly useless
like beverages, worker hats, etc do not appear to have a function in the game.
Unless you read the manual you have no idea what is going on - well, with the
little things anyway (and didn't some one once say that "the little things in
life count"? ;-) ).
	So my original post stands.

						- Falcon

j-h...@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (James Hogan) writes:
>har...@pnw.net (Eric Harding) writes:
>>Privateer wasn't that good.     WCIII is not going to be much more than a 
>>movie, with combat sequences ran by a bad combat engine, if it's anything 
>>like the one in Armada.

>It's amazing how people continue to jump to conclusions when they haven't
>seen the game, especially when all the information they've released about
>the game so far indicates that it very well may not be that way... 

	Oh come on.  How many times has Origin let us down?  Strike Commander,
Privateer, WC-Armada, PACIFIC STRIKE... based on that track record, and
especially
considering that 3 out of those 4 have been Origin in-house's latest releases
... need I say more?  Though you are correct in never judging a book by its
cover, can you honestly believe Origin's hype anymore?

					- Falcon

j-h...@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (James Hogan) writes:
>wbir...@lynx.dac.neu.edu (William Birkmaier) writes:
>>System Shock was an out-of-house game, so was Ultima Underworld I and
>>II.  U8 Wingcomander Series, Strike comander, etc were all in-house.  As
>>far as I'm consered that last time there was a good inhouse games from
>>Origin it was Ultima 6. over 5 years if I remeber correctly, and i
>>expect it to be the same for a while.  However I have no doubt that they
>> will continue to have games with excellent graphics.  not much gameplay
>>tho.

	Well... you seem to be on the right track... WC-Armada, U8, PS (I
found the combat of PS to be really pitiful compared to AOTP and even the
EGA dinosaur Battlehawks 1942).
	Sad truths constantly fill our mortal reality.


>What was wrong with the first two WC games?  Most people agree that 
>they're great.  WC2 was recently inducted into CGW's hall of fame, even...

	Agreed.  The WC I and II and all its add-ons (except for the speech
pack) are an A-grade classic in the same way that Tolstoy's "War and Peace" has
become to the literary world. (Of course I am excluding the 2 WCA games).
	As for CGW's hall of fame... big deal.  Do real people vote for those
things anyway, or is it the reviewers?

					- Falcon

 The Codex of Ultimate Wisdom caught GM Enierga writing:
: >It's amazing how people continue to jump to conclusions when they haven't
: >seen the game, especially when all the information they've released about
: >the game so far indicates that it very well may not be that way... 
: 	Oh come on.  How many times has Origin let us down?  Strike Commander,

what's wrong with Strike Commander??  'twas one of the best games ever 
done by anyone!  and 'twas completely bug-free!

: Privateer, WC-Armada, PACIFIC STRIKE... based on that track record, and

what's wrong with Privateer?  admitedly it isn't in the same league as 
Wing Commander, but what's so wrong with it?

: considering that 3 out of those 4 have been Origin in-house's latest releases
: ... need I say more?  Though you are correct in never judging a book by its
: cover, can you honestly believe Origin's hype anymore?

I still believe in them... I suspect a lot of people here are willing to 
believe what is posted on the net rather than trying it out themselves.  
I haven't played Armada or Pacific Strike yet, and for the latter, 
despite the universal (seeming) feeling against it, I *will* still play 
it to see for myself :)

 --
************************************************************************
* Sir Launcelot du Lake       Internet: swk...@leonis.nus.sg   __     *
* Avatar & Knight of Britannia  Bitnet: swkgohw@nusvm.bitnet   /  \    *
**********************************************************    | () |   *
*  Steel is strong, boy, but flesh is stronger!  Look    *  |\_\  /_/| *
*  around you...there...see that pretty girl on the      *  | _    _ | *
*  cliff?...Come to me child!....That is power!  The     *  |/ |  | \| *
*  power of flesh.  What is steel, compared to the hand  *     |  |    *
*  that weilds it?            -  Thulsa Doom             *    /____\   *
************************************************************************

In article <39kjm6$9...@harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au>,
GM Enierga <gme...@lindblat.cc.monash.edu.au> wrote:

>	Oh come on.  How many times has Origin let us down?  Strike Commander,
>Privateer, WC-Armada, PACIFIC STRIKE... based on that track record, and
>especially
>considering that 3 out of those 4 have been Origin in-house's latest releases
>... need I say more?  Though you are correct in never judging a book by its
>cover, can you honestly believe Origin's hype anymore?

	That's your own opinion.  There are a lot of people out there who
enjoyed those games.  One has to give Origin credit for bringing out something
like Strike Commander.  It broke new ground when it came to graphics engines,
the first of its kind.  I find that Privateer draws one into the storyline,
like a good short story.  It is in no way a letdown, IMO.  Armada is a sort
of preview for WCIII with H2H and one should not expect more than that.  I
would not consider those three titles letdowns.

	Pacific Strike is indeed a piece of crap, but not the others IMO.
They were everything I expected.  In my book, Origin has delivered more
than 75% of the time, which is much more than I can say about a lot of other
companies.

TRH Sends

In article <39klsl$a...@harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au>,
GM Enierga <gme...@lindblat.cc.monash.edu.au> wrote:

>	As for CGW's hall of fame... big deal.  Do real people vote for those
>things anyway, or is it the reviewers?

FYI... the CGW Hall of Fame has  first and foremost  been always based
on the opinions  of the gamers.  It  is the gamers  who send  in those
little cards in each issue of CGW who rate  their favourite games, and
granted, it's not a completely accurate picture of how good a game is,
it's the best we can get.  After a  game has been  at the  top  of the
ratings for an inordinate amount of time, it is inducted into the Hall
of Fame.  If you look at  the games in the Hall  of Fame, you'd notice
that they are  all games that  are  generally considered "classics" --
so, they must be doing something right.

***************************************************************************
* Milamber,(yc...@columbia.edu)* There have been rumours that the Great One*
* Master Magician,            * known as Milamber has been masquerading   *
* Sorcerer's Island, Midkemia.* as Chew Yung Jin around the Columbia      *
*                             * University campus.                        *
***************************************************************************
* "What you call genocide -- I call a day's work"                         *
*                                    -- Marritza to Major Kira            *
*                                       ST:DS9 "Duet"                     *
***************************************************************************

In article <39hqgt$b...@ixnews1.ix.netcom.com>
LCas...@ix.netcom.com (Leith Cassone) writes:
>
>I've done this one, several times.  But I installed a new CD drive and
>then re-installed T7G.  I can't solve it again!!!   Help :)
>
>Thanks, This is driving me nutz  :)
>
>Leith
 
Hi, Leith,
 
I really empathize with you.  I'm in a similar pickle.  I'll help you
and I hope you can help me.  The first time I played T7G I played
with a friend and it was the 8-bishop reversal puzzle that drove
us nearly insane. Even when one of us solved it for the first four
we couldn't remember what the principle had been, so the other one
had to sweat it out for the other four all over again.  Please, if
you know how to solve the bishop puzzle, tell me, because now I'm
playing T7G again with a different friend and we've just thrown in
the towel on the bishops!
 
The/this second time around I was stumped for a second on the queen
problem I think because I simply WANTED to begin at the top of the
left file (I work these out in file-mind rather than rank-mind),
but as soon as I freed myself from that prejudice it all came back
to me.  What you do is begin (of course there are probably lots
of ways to do this, this is just mine) 7 up on the leftmost file.
You ascend until you reach the bottom rank, and begin again at
the uppermost possible file.  To simplify, here's the solution
in chess notation:
 
(You are, of course, "white")
 
QR7, QKt5, QB3, Q1, K8, KB6, KKt4, KR2 -- that's it.
 
I hope you can help me on that bishop problem (I just worked this
out on a chessboard for you, the idea of looking at the bishop
problem in the actual computer game makes me shudder), but, if
you can't, that's ok.
 
So long and good luck,
 
Trina
 
(Trina Borras, Wash., D.C., trina@ibrdvm1 or -@ibrdvm1.worldbank.org)
 
P.S.  I never did solve two of the puzzles the first time around--
      neither the virus/redbloodcell nor the rubicks-cubey near the
      end -- but I don't want any hints, I'm determined to resolve
      them this time!  (I don't care about the bishops, I have no
      pride, I just want to be put out of my misery.)

In article <1706711A...@IBRDVM1.WORLDBANK.ORG>
TR...@IBRDVM1.WORLDBANK.ORG (Trina Borras) a.k.a. I wrote:
 
>
>In article <39hqgt$b...@ixnews1.ix.netcom.com>
>LCas...@ix.netcom.com (Leith Cassone) writes:
>>
>>I've done this one, several times.  But I installed a new CD drive and
>>then re-installed T7G.  I can't solve it again!!!   Help :)
>>
>>Thanks, This is driving me nutz  :)
>>
>>Leith
>
>Hi, Leith,
>
>I really empathize with you.  I'm in a similar pickle.  I'll help you
>and I hope you can help me.  The first time I played T7G I played
>with a friend and it was the 8-bishop reversal puzzle that drove
>us nearly insane. Even when one of us solved it for the first four
>we couldn't remember what the principle had been, so the other one
>had to sweat it out for the other four all over again.  Please, if
>you know how to solve the bishop puzzle, tell me, because now I'm
>playing T7G again with a different friend and we've just thrown in
>the towel on the bishops!
>
> blah ... blah ... blah ...
 
I didn't realize this was cross-posted, I answered this question
from comp.sys.ibm.pc.games action, unfortunately my newsreader
doesn't offer me c.s.i.p.g.adventure, and probably not the others
involved.  I've never cross-posted before (if indeed that's what
I've done in replying), so, if anybody knows the answer to the
bishop problem, could you please write to me at my internet address
below.  Thanks,
 
Trina
>
>(Trina Borras, Wash., D.C., trina@ibrdvm1 or -@ibrdvm1.worldbank.org)

 The Codex of Ultimate Wisdom caught Yung Jin Chew writing:
: In article <39klsl$a...@harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au>,
: GM Enierga <gme...@lindblat.cc.monash.edu.au> wrote:
: >	As for CGW's hall of fame... big deal.  Do real people vote for those
: >things anyway, or is it the reviewers?
: FYI... the CGW Hall of Fame has  first and foremost  been always based
: on the opinions  of the gamers.  It  is the gamers  who send  in those
: little cards in each issue of CGW who rate  their favourite games, and
: granted, it's not a completely accurate picture of how good a game is,
: it's the best we can get.  After a  game has been  at the  top  of the
: ratings for an inordinate amount of time, it is inducted into the Hall
: of Fame.  If you look at  the games in the Hall  of Fame, you'd notice
: that they are  all games that  are  generally considered "classics" --
: so, they must be doing something right.

aye, I follow the CGW annual awards and Hall of Fame seriously... because 
I don't have an inordinate amount of time to play games all day, I have a 
simple rule when it comes to buying and playing games:

win CGW award or inducted in HoF = buy and play game/series
no CGW award nor induction in HoF = don't waste my time :)

AD&D and Origin are exempted from this rule, of course :-D

--
************************************************************************
* Sir Launcelot du Lake       Internet: swk...@leonis.nus.sg   __     *
* Avatar & Knight of Britannia  Bitnet: swkgohw@nusvm.bitnet   /  \    *
**********************************************************    | () |   *
*                                                        *  |\_\  /_/| *
*        Is this a game, or is this real?                *  | _    _ | *
*        What's the difference?                          *  |/ |  | \| *
*                                                        *     |  |    *
*                            -  Wargames                 *    /____\   *
************************************************************************

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In article <39lv3i$r...@apakabar.cc.columbia.edu>,
th...@aloha.cc.columbia.edu (Tom  Hong) wrote:
> 	That's your own opinion.  There are a lot of people out there who
> enjoyed those games.  One has to give Origin credit for bringing out something
> like Strike Commander.  It broke new ground when it came to graphics engines,
> the first of its kind.  I find that Privateer draws one into the storyline,
> like a good short story.  It is in no way a letdown, IMO.  Armada is a sort
> of preview for WCIII with H2H and one should not expect more than that.  I
> would not consider those three titles letdowns.

I don't have much experience with SC, but IMNSHO Privateer was a piece of crap.
I bought it, beat it, and sold it rather quickly.  The only parts that I liked
were the music and the neat concept of the Steltek drone following you.  In
a space game, I've never had to worry so much about staying alive.  Other than
that, the game simply did not challenge me.

.|.  |. Lord Soth <con...@netcom.com> (finger for PGP Public Key)  .  .|   |  .
 |-O-| .     .            .               .     .                  .   |-O-|  .
 |.  |   For some cool TIE Fighter and X-Wing stuff, check out my ftp  |   |  .
     /  .\    .  directory ftp.netcom.com:/pub/sordsoth   .     .  ./     \   .
  .  |=O=| .      .        .        .       .    .    .      .   .  |=O=O=|  .
.    \.  /    .      .         .       . .       .  .     .     .  .\     /

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swk...@leonis.nus.sg (Sir Launcelot du Lake) writes:
> The Codex of Ultimate Wisdom caught GM Enierga writing:
>: >It's amazing how people continue to jump to conclusions when they haven't
>: >seen the game, especially when all the information they've released about
>: >the game so far indicates that it very well may not be that way... 
>: 	Oh come on.  How many times has Origin let us down?  Strike Commander,

>what's wrong with Strike Commander??  'twas one of the best games ever 
>done by anyone!  and 'twas completely bug-free!

	We are talking about the FLOPPY version.  Are you going to tell me that
THAT version did not have its problems?


>: Privateer, WC-Armada, PACIFIC STRIKE... based on that track record, and

>what's wrong with Privateer?  admitedly it isn't in the same league as 
>Wing Commander, but what's so wrong with it?

	Story, 1D characters, some of the combat options (eg no turret-control),
failure to fulfill some roles (like playing a pirate)... those were the major
ones anyway.  Oh, the speech pack wasn't up to standard - again.


>: considering that 3 out of those 4 have been Origin in-house's latest releases
>: ... need I say more?  Though you are correct in never judging a book by its
>: cover, can you honestly believe Origin's hype anymore?

>I still believe in them... I suspect a lot of people here are willing to 
>believe what is posted on the net rather than trying it out themselves.  
>I haven't played Armada or Pacific Strike yet, and for the latter, 
>despite the universal (seeming) feeling against it, I *will* still play 
>it to see for myself :)
>* Sir Launcelot du Lake       Internet: swk...@leonis.nus.sg   __     *

	Well, I have seen ALL those I have described, hence my opinions upon
them.  The only reason I criticise something like WC3 even though it has not
been released is not even a criticism - but just voicing my fears that Origin
will follow suit with their previous 3-4 products (System Shock is not included
in that range :-) ).
	Yes, I do agree with you to never judge a book by its cover.  So far
a friend has just got Strike Commander (floppy version) of a bargain bin, and
I had a look at it.  Only had time to play one mission so far, and all the said
criticisms that were on the internet seem to ring true - the game CRASHED on his
computer after about 10 mins.

						- Falcon

th...@aloha.cc.columbia.edu (Tom  Hong) writes:
>In article <39kjm6$9...@harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au>,
>GM Enierga <gme...@lindblat.cc.monash.edu.au> wrote:
>>	Oh come on.  How many times has Origin let us down?  Strike Commander,
>>Privateer, WC-Armada, PACIFIC STRIKE... based on that track record, and
>>especially
>>considering that 3 out of those 4 have been Origin in-house's latest releases
>>... need I say more?  Though you are correct in never judging a book by its
>>cover, can you honestly believe Origin's hype anymore?

>	That's your own opinion.

	Yes it is.  I never pretended otherwise.


>There are a lot of people out there who
>enjoyed those games.  One has to give Origin credit for bringing out something
>like Strike Commander.  It broke new ground when it came to graphics engines,
>the first of its kind.

	Granted - the graphics engine WAS good.  But do not pretend it did not
have its problems.  Since they fixed it all with the CD release, this point has
now become moot.


>I find that Privateer draws one into the storyline,
>like a good short story.

	Then if you consider THAT a good story, I suggest you look into Space
Rogue or the WC series.  Excellent storytelling if I ever saw one, a standard
which Privateer did not reach - I'm sorry.


>It is in no way a letdown, IMO.  Armada is a sort
>of preview for WCIII with H2H and one should not expect more than that.  I
>would not consider those three titles letdowns.

	I DID expect more than that.  I was looking forward to the strategy
element much more than H2H.


>	Pacific Strike is indeed a piece of crap, but not the others IMO.

	By the way, if you have not got the patch for that and have not sold
your copy elsewhere, I suggest you do; it fixes a lot of problems.  For me it
did not fix enough though to make me want to buy it.


>They were everything I expected.  In my book, Origin has delivered more
>than 75% of the time, which is much more than I can say about a lot of other
>companies.
>TRH Sends

	First of all, up until U7 this record was so much closer to 100%. But
our books simply do not match, so there's no point for further debate.  Some
people like meat, others like potatoes, and some like both while others like
none of the above.
	It's what makes the world go round. ;-)

						- Falcon

LCas...@ix.netcom.com (Leith Cassone) writes:
>I've done this one, several times.  But I installed a new CD drive and 
>then re-installed T7G.  I can't solve it again!!!   Help :)
>Thanks, This is driving me nutz  :)
>Leith

	Can you tell me what the exact problem is?  Though I do not have the
game, I have solved a few chess problems and one of those has been in
relation to Queens.

						
							- Falcon

Does anyone know the patterns to the house puzzle at the end, or the
stepping stone problem on the floor of the shrine?

I solved the stepping stone problem by taking the longest possible
path, and thus knocking out a maximum number of stones.  It really 
surprised me when the game accepted it.

I never did figure out why the house works either - I solved by just
noting a general behavior of the shapes and making very lucky guesses
as to which to pick next.

Anyone have any opinions as to which puzzle is the hardest?  I think it
may be the bishops one, but the microscope blobs is also rough.

-- 
Brought to you from the desk of

					-- The Eradicator
					-- drwe...@essex.ecn.uoknor.edu

In article <39s5k6$l...@harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au>,
GM Enierga <gme...@lindblat.cc.monash.edu.au> wrote:

>	Then if you consider THAT a good story, I suggest you look into Space
>Rogue or the WC series.  Excellent storytelling if I ever saw one, a standard
>which Privateer did not reach - I'm sorry.

	I have.  I think it's every bit as good as the Rogue or WC series.
In fact, I like it better because it takes more brain power to solve.  In
WC for example you are led through the entire story.  The outcome is based
on how many kitty cats you kill.  Same as Star Wars games.  The outcome is
based on how many Imperial ships (Xwing) or Rebels (Tie) you kill.  Privateer
needs you to think about your next move because in many instances you are
left very little clue as to where to go next.  Remember when I said it would
be too much to expect full speech and I gave my reasons for it?  Perhaps you
are expecting too much from this department also, or perhaps something
different.  I stand by my previous statements.

>	I DID expect more than that.  I was looking forward to the strategy
>element much more than H2H.
>	First of all, up until U7 this record was so much closer to 100%. But
>our books simply do not match, so there's no point for further debate.  Some
>people like meat, others like potatoes, and some like both while others like
>none of the above.
>	It's what makes the world go round. ;-)

	Yeah but unequivocally saying that Origin failed because you did not
like some of their recent releases while many others out there did...  That's
one of my points of this whole debate, Mr. Enierga.

TRH Sends

In article <39kigq$9...@harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au> gme...@lindblat.cc.monash.edu.au (GM Enierga) writes:

>>>>        What's the point of even TRYING to pirate games, especially like
>>>>Origin's?  You can't play them without the manuals, since the manuals pack so
>much useful info.
>>>>        Just my opinion.

>>>Oh, I dunno, I think you can play System Shock without hardly ever looking at 
>>>the manual.  Wings of Glory can't be all that hard.  Even WC Armada is pretty 
>>>easy.
>>> --- Alan Dunkin
>>>

>        But even with System Shock, it never tells you on the screen ANYWHERE
>how to activate the Fragmantation Grenade.  Had to go to the manual for that
>one.  And since I am still on level 1, (not even near the end, I don't think)
>I believe there are more little tricks like that spread throughout the entire
>game.  Yet another example: those items you pick up which seem utterly useless
>like beverages, worker hats, etc do not appear to have a function in the game.
>Unless you read the manual you have no idea what is going on - well, with the
>little things anyway (and didn't some one once say that "the little things in
>life count"? ;-) ).
>        So my original post stands.

Which was your original post?  If it's the one on trying to pirate games, then 
I disagree.

However, I agree that some games need manuals, X-Wing, and most RPGs comes to 
mind.  However, it is easy to pirate these games and manuals.  The disks can 
be copied easily, and as for the manual, we have the great invention called a 
photocopier.

Even if you photocopy the entire manual, cover to cover, it is still going to 
cost you less than what you would have to pay for the game.

Please note that I do not advocate the piracy of games.  However, it would be 
naive for one to think that it does not exist, or is hard to do.

BTW, as for those spinning codes wheels (Pools of Radiance, Curse of the 
Azure Bonds, Secrets of the Luftwuffe) they can be copied too.  Many ways of 
doing it.  One that I have seen is to dismantle the wheel, and then make 
copies.  Then cut out the windows on the front wheel.  Stick them together 
with a thumbtack and cover the back of the tack with a piece of wood.  Not a 
very good wheel, but fuctional.


********************************************************
Ng, Kai Koon
University of Tasmania, Australia
Electrical & Electronics Engineering
email : kk...@postoffice.utas.edu.au
********************************************************

"I am become death, the destroyer of worlds"
J. Robert Oppenheimer, quoting Krishna, from the Gita

Well met Nightfox,

 The Codex of Ultimate Wisdom caught GM Enierga writing:
: >what's wrong with Strike Commander??  'twas one of the best games ever 
: >done by anyone!  and 'twas completely bug-free!
: 	We are talking about the FLOPPY version.  Are you going to tell me that
: THAT version did not have its problems?

aye, *ABSOLUTELY* :)  I had *NO* problems with the floppy version 
whatsoever..  as in an earlier thread, I played *both* the disk and CD 
versions and both had no problems.

: >what's wrong with Privateer?  admitedly it isn't in the same league as 
: >Wing Commander, but what's so wrong with it?
: 	Story, 1D characters, some of the combat options (eg no turret-control),
: failure to fulfill some roles (like playing a pirate)... those were the major
: ones anyway.  Oh, the speech pack wasn't up to standard - again.

I agree with most of these, but the way thou put it, thou makest it sound 
like "Attack of the Killer Tomatoes" or something :)  aye, Origin doesn't 
always put out top notch stories/gameplay (Knights of Legend comes to 
mind - the combat sequences were simply ludicruous in terms of the length 
of time needed to resolve them), but their amount of hits more than make up 
for their lapses..

: >I still believe in them... I suspect a lot of people here are willing to 
: >believe what is posted on the net rather than trying it out themselves.  
: >I haven't played Armada or Pacific Strike yet, and for the latter, 
: >despite the universal (seeming) feeling against it, I *will* still play 
: >it to see for myself :)

: 	Well, I have seen ALL those I have described, hence my opinions upon
                     ^^^^
when thou sayest "seen", I hope thou meanest "played at least half the 
game" :-}  if not, thy opnions are really questionable (see Tom Basham's 
editorial on Internet opinions in an earlier issue of CGW)

: them.  The only reason I criticise something like WC3 even though it has not
: been released is not even a criticism - but just voicing my fears that Origin
: will follow suit with their previous 3-4 products (System Shock is not included
: in that range :-) ).

thou must like SS... I'm waiting for the CD version.. I only play CD 
games as far as possible from now on :)

: 	Yes, I do agree with you to never judge a book by its cover.  So far
: a friend has just got Strike Commander (floppy version) of a bargain bin, and
: I had a look at it.  Only had time to play one mission so far, and all the said
: criticisms that were on the internet seem to ring true - the game CRASHED on his
: computer after about 10 mins.

as above, never happened to me...  note that there was never a Strike 
Commander patch from Origin as far as I know, so these may be isolated 
instances and not consistent ones...

I'm still playing Privateer CD now (will probably do a review for GB), 
and so far, it only crashed twice for unknown reasons, but I've not been 
able to replicate it, so 'tis just one of those isolated oddities..

--
************************************************************************
* Sir Launcelot du Lake       Internet: swk...@leonis.nus.sg   __     *
* Avatar & Knight of Britannia  Bitnet: swkgohw@nusvm.bitnet   /  \    *
**********************************************************    | () |   *
*  I am Herne the Hunter, and thou art my son.  Take     *  |\_\  /_/| *
*  thee Albion, one of the seven Swords of Wayland,      *  | _    _ | *
*  charged with the powers of light and darkness.        *  |/ |  | \| *
*  String thee this bow.  The Hooded Man returns to      *     |  |    *
*  the forest   -  Lord of the Trees                     *    /____\   *
************************************************************************

 The Codex of Ultimate Wisdom caught GM Enierga writing:
: >I find that Privateer draws one into the storyline,
: >like a good short story.
: 	Then if you consider THAT a good story, I suggest you look into Space
: Rogue or the WC series.  Excellent storytelling if I ever saw one, a standard
: which Privateer did not reach - I'm sorry.

actually, Falcon, I don't recall Space Rogue having much of a story, 
anymore than Privateer does :-}  I agree that WC is much better..

--
************************************************************************
* Sir Launcelot du Lake       Internet: swk...@leonis.nus.sg   __     *
* Avatar & Knight of Britannia  Bitnet: swkgohw@nusvm.bitnet   /  \    *
**********************************************************    | () |   *
*  All the gods cannot sever us, if I was dead and       *  |\_\  /_/| *
*  you still fighting for your life, I will come from    *  | _    _ | *
*  the grave and fight by your side                      *  |/ |  | \| *
*        _                -  Valeria, Queen of Thieves   *     |  |    *
*    @=={_====-------                                    *    /____\   *
************************************************************************

In article <Vg4mkerQ...@netcom.com>, Lord Soth <con...@netcom.com> wrote:

>I don't have much experience with SC, but IMNSHO Privateer was a piece of crap
>I bought it, beat it, and sold it rather quickly.  The only parts that I liked
>were the music and the neat concept of the Steltek drone following you.  In
>a space game, I've never had to worry so much about staying alive.  Other than
>that, the game simply did not challenge me.

Cong,

	It made a nice break from games that are nearly impossible to beat.
Some of us are not as dexterous, you know.  =)  And if you did buy it, beat it
and sold it rather quickly, more power to ya.

	I am glad to see that you are willing to acknowledge that the game at
least has some merits, instead of some others out there who seem to have an
almost pathological hate for Origin or their recent releases.

TRH Sends

In article <39u0dp$k...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>,
James Hogan <j-h...@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu> wrote:

>The missions are non-linear, yes.  There's a bit of intuition and 
>puzzle-solving needed to figure out where to go next sometimes.  That 
>doesn't make the story any better.

	To me it does!  =)  But it's subjective so....

>Your chacter is a jerk who deals in slaves and drugs and cares only about 
>himself.  The people you deal with are dull and one-dimensional, and not 
>once do you deal with them outside of business -- there's no personal 
>interaction as there was with the WC series.  You don't get to know 
>any of them as individuals.  Your character never has to deal with the 
>pain of losing a friend.

	Hey, I went through Privateer the old-fashioned way.  Never sold no
contraband!   =)  Ran some for Tayla, but that's it.  Honest!  Now stop
hounding me, you damn Confed.  (GRIN)  (BTW I enjoyed your WCIII FAQ
immensely.)

	As far as the game's mercantilistic approach, hey, "It's just
business, nothing personal...!"  (grin)  I thought I saw shades of a
romance developing between our erstwhile hero and Taryn Cross.  Wished
Origin would have elaborated on that one.  =)

>This is what draws people into the WC plot -- the fact that they get to 
>know and even care about their wingmen, and are concerned when they're 
>being pummeled by Kilrathi, or are angry when they get killed.  What's 
>the big deal about an alien drone threatening to take over the Gamma 
>sector if you (the player) don't give a crap about the people or places 
>inhabiting it?

	Heh heh... Because that drone wasn't just threatening to take over
the Gamma sector!  It was coming after ME!  (grin)  And I do care...  That's
why I racked up 3549 Kilrathi kills but never any Confed, merchies or
militias.  :-)

TRH Sends

th...@aloha.cc.columbia.edu (Tom  Hong) writes:
>In article <39s5k6$l...@harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au>,
>GM Enierga <gme...@lindblat.cc.monash.edu.au> wrote:
>>	Then if you consider THAT a good story, I suggest you look into Space
>>Rogue or the WC series.  Excellent storytelling if I ever saw one, a standard
>>which Privateer did not reach - I'm sorry.

>	I have.  I think it's every bit as good as the Rogue or WC series.

	I disagree, still - even after reading what you wrote.  I'll explain
why.


>In fact, I like it better because it takes more brain power to solve.

	Not more brain power, but more "hit and miss".


>In WC for example you are led through the entire story.  The outcome is based
>on how many kitty cats you kill.  Same as Star Wars games.  The outcome is
>based on how many Imperial ships (Xwing) or Rebels (Tie) you kill.

	That was not the kind of story I was on about... I was talking about the
quality of storytelling one finds in books, not how you interract with it.  In
the interraction department, you cannot say there are MANY games out there which
allows you to fully explore a world and deviate from a story... in Privateer's
example, like in Elite and the non-interractive-story of Mechwarrior, sure you
can get away from the "plot" you are in - but you can't do anything other than
trade/take missions - you can't meet someone to fall in love with or find
someone who may be trying to kill you and is constantly chasing you throughout
the galaxy or go visit your relatives or whatever - you are simply limited to
those actions.  Same goes with many "adventure games" which does not even let
you do the trading/etc... you are "led" through the story, just like you are
in Privateer.
	I am talking about the quality of story-telling, as if you are seeing a
great movie and awe at it and wonder at the twists it presents.  WC is that
kind of game, but no one pretends that it is an "interactive" story (except for
the action of course).  The starwars games is no story whatsoever - just a
series of missions.  Space rogue is an early example of Privateer, but with more
realistic space-flight performance (using the principle of inertia) and more
"interactive" rpg elements (though they themselves are limited).  WC and space
rogue have GREAT stories... if they were made into books, one would read them
"thrillingly" (for lack of a better word).  Privateer's story line just plain
"sucks" (sorry for the word) - someone commented on how better it could have
been, and I am not going to repeat his points.


> Privateer
>needs you to think about your next move because in many instances you are
>left very little clue as to where to go next.  Remember when I said it would
>be too much to expect full speech and I gave my reasons for it?  Perhaps you
>are expecting too much from this department also, or perhaps something
>different.  I stand by my previous statements.

	Nope - like I said before, it is more of a "hit and miss" aspect.


>>	I DID expect more than that.  I was looking forward to the strategy
>>element much more than H2H.
>>	First of all, up until U7 this record was so much closer to 100%. But
>>our books simply do not match, so there's no point for further debate.  Some
>>people like meat, others like potatoes, and some like both while others like
>>none of the above.
>>	It's what makes the world go round. ;-)

>	Yeah but unequivocally saying that Origin failed because you did not
>like some of their recent releases while many others out there did...  That's
>one of my points of this whole debate, Mr. Enierga.
>TRH Sends

	No, that is not what I said.  I wrote WHY I disliked them so many times.
The ideas WERE great, I must admit... with the exception of Pacific Strike.
All I am saying their execution was rotten - or could have been improved so much
further to make the games decent.  You simply cannot expect me to believe that
Pacific Strike was likeable by MANY people... it was even worst than the first
release (on floppy) of Strike Commander.  And as I have said countless times
before, the whole thing started with Privateer IMHO.  Though the coding seems
fine, the story is not up to Origin's standard.  Yes, Origin's standard.  They
have only themselves to blame.
	But do not forget it is my opinion.  I am NOT Him (Her?) nor do I sit
in an ivory tower office saying "this product should be burned" or "this one
should become a classic".  Can't people get this through their heads? (sorry
again, SOME people). :-)
	Oh, and it is not Mr. Enierga, but a friend who is using his account
for mail etc - hence the "Falcon" at the end, denoting another person.

					- Falcon

In article <3arqj8$1...@harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au>,
GM Enierga <gme...@lindblat.cc.monash.edu.au> wrote:

Dear Mr. Enierga, please pass this along to your friend for me.  Thanks.  :)

	Well one man's treasure is another's junk.  There are people who
like Privateer and people who don't.  I say it's awesome and you say it
sucked.  (shrug)

> Origin only has themselves to blame for it.
 
	I disagree.  Origin apologizes to no one in regard to Privateer.
Having stayed up there at CGW's 10 currently most played games list for
a year already (it was released late in 1993 if I am not mistaken) The
game ran with good performance (frame rates, disk access speeds, etc) and
as indicated by the polls, has a large following.  So I don't think Origin
has anything to be sorry for at all in releasing Privateer.

	I do agree, however, that Pacific Strike is indeed a disaster; it
never made the 10 current list and was blasted by editors from the moment
it was released because of its poor performance even on hot-rod machines.
As was shown by the polls, it was never accepted by the gaming public, in
this case I do think Origin has something to apologize for (which they did).

	But as I said before, most of their other recent games (e.g.
Strike Commander-- and I have the floppy version and never had any problems
with it, Armada) has a following also, and have been polled as being some
of the most-played games for a while as well.  Origin doesn't have to
apologize to anyone else for these either.

TRH Sends

th...@aloha.cc.columbia.edu (Tom  Hong) writes:
>In article <3arqj8$1...@harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au>,
>GM Enierga <gme...@lindblat.cc.monash.edu.au> wrote:
>Dear Mr. Enierga, please pass this along to your friend for me.  Thanks.  :)

	He did.


>	Well one man's treasure is another's junk.  There are people who
>like Privateer and people who don't.  I say it's awesome and you say it
>sucked.  (shrug)

	Not exactly what I said, but I guess I'll go along with that.


>> Origin only has themselves to blame for it.
>	I disagree.  Origin apologizes to no one in regard to Privateer.

	:-) Since when does ANY company apologise for something? ;-)


>Having stayed up there at CGW's 10 currently most played games list for
>a year already (it was released late in 1993 if I am not mistaken) The

	Forgive me if I do not believe magazine "top #X" lists.  Who puts those
games there anyway (ie who votes for them?)?


>game ran with good performance (frame rates, disk access speeds, etc) and
>as indicated by the polls, has a large following.  So I don't think Origin
>has anything to be sorry for at all in releasing Privateer.

	Just the story and a bit of the voicing.  But I uess you've all heard
this before.


>	I do agree, however, that Pacific Strike is indeed a disaster; it
>never made the 10 current list and was blasted by editors from the moment
>it was released because of its poor performance even on hot-rod machines.
>As was shown by the polls, it was never accepted by the gaming public, in
>this case I do think Origin has something to apologize for (which they did).

	They DID?? When? Where?  Last I heard, someone posted something about
calling their tech support dept. about it and they told him it had no probs.
(or something to that effect).


>	But as I said before, most of their other recent games (e.g.
>Strike Commander-- and I have the floppy version and never had any problems
>with it,

	You mean the hazing problem did not bother you?


> Armada) has a following also, and have been polled as being some
>of the most-played games for a while as well.  Origin doesn't have to
>apologize to anyone else for these either.
>TRH Sends

	I never did ask for an apology as such.  More a case of "See what you
did; see if you can improve next time"...  I can't blame them for SC - they DID
fix that with their CD-ROM release.  As for Armada... sorry, I just can't agree
with you there.  What's the point of having a 2-player network only? (which
reminds me - have they released the 6-player patch yet?)

								- Falcon

In article <3bce1v$4...@harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au>,
GM Enierga <gme...@lindblat.cc.monash.edu.au> wrote:

>	Not exactly what I said, but I guess I'll go along with that.

>>Having stayed up there at CGW's 10 currently most played games list for
>>a year already (it was released late in 1993 if I am not mistaken) The
>
>	Forgive me if I do not believe magazine "top #X" lists.  Who puts those
>games there anyway (ie who votes for them?)?

	Me, for one.  =)  I regularly send in my poll card every time I
buy an issue.  

>>	I do agree, however, that Pacific Strike is indeed a disaster; it
>>never made the 10 current list and was blasted by editors from the moment
>>it was released because of its poor performance even on hot-rod machines.
>>As was shown by the polls, it was never accepted by the gaming public, in
>>this case I do think Origin has something to apologize for (which they did).
>
>	They DID?? When? Where?  Last I heard, someone posted something about
>calling their tech support dept. about it and they told him it had no probs.
>(or something to that effect).

	I saw an interview that one of the editors did with Origin on
the subject of Pacific Strike in a past issue of PC Gamer.  I don't 
remember which issue, but it starts with the editor saying, "Gee I guess
there is a lot of people out there that are pissed off at you right now
because of this game, eh?"  (grin)  The Origin guy went on to apologize
and admit that they did a less than stellar job with Pacific Strike.

>	You mean the hazing problem did not bother you?

	Nope...  It didn't bother me one bit.  I tend to wash out
everything when an Su-27 is in my gunsights.  (grin)  Ground attack...
Somehow the ground vehicles always show up on my system prominently 
against the haze because of their dark green or brown color.

	But it is true that it gets annoying after a while.  I don't
want to spend the extra money for the CD ROM edition, though.

TRH Sends