🚀 go-pugleaf

On 6/19/2017 8:17 AM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:

> 
> It wasn't until Quake that fully-configurable key-binds started to
> become an accepted - and expected - feature. Customizable controls
> were available in Id games as early as Wolf3D, but Quake's success
> turned this oddity into a must-have for all modern games. It also
> popularized the WASD control scheme.
> 

Ah, it's Quake's fault for WASD, damn them!

I far prefer ESDF, as it matches the home keys better, leaving the pinky 
open for a bunch of rarely used keys.  This is especially true in online 
games, where switching back and forth for typing to WASD for movement 
takes up valuable time!

I find it a pain to reconfigure every single game though, and I also 
have to switch around the other keys that EF and C are used for, and end 
up using WASD most of the time. It's only when I'm playing something 
online for a long time like EQ or CoX that I bother, and I haven't 
played anything like that in some time.

I seem to be mostly using a controller these days too.  I guess I don't 
play a lot of fp games anymore.  Even GTA V, and the Saints row games 
I'd switch between controller and keyboard when driving/walking as it's 
far easier to drive with the controller and far easier to aim guns with 
the mouse.  Of course that takes even more time than switching from WASD 
to ESDF

- Justisaur

> But for the longest time, the ability to re-map
>keys /wasn't/ a standard feature.

    Yeah, doom shareware did not have normal mouselook, and I was strictly a 
keyboard-only player for some time.  It was only much later that 
circle-strafing hit like a revelation.

>It wasn't until Quake that fully-configurable key-binds started to
>become an accepted - and expected - feature.

    Descent was really a leader in this regard.  you could map anything to 
anything pretty much.

> What I
>really wanted to talk about is the oddities of my personal key-binds.

    WRT Descent, I've never heard to anything similar to my control mapping: 
I'd push the keyboard way over to the left, and have my left hand on the 
numpad.  All strafing/rolling/firing was on the numpad keys, while 
pitch/turning was on the mouse, with Forward/Backward on the mouse buttons.

>"C" is for crouch, not CTRL; that's Dark Forces influence over me
>again. "Z" for prone, when an available option; Delta Force taught me
>that. "Q" and "E" are obviously for leaning (no silly ALT-WASD
>moronicies for me; pushing two keys at once for a single action?

    Vietcong had the best crouch/prone mechanics.  I believe you could hit Z 
to cycle between crouch/prone/standing, or hit X to go prone; I forget if 
you could lean, but I think so.  The new Wolfenstein games have complicated 
leaning, as you can lean in any direction, and I don't have a solution for 
that beyond alt-wasd.  These games also have sliding, or 'crouching while 
sprinting', for which I had to forgo my usual Z=crouch for C, as using the 
pinky for Shift to sprint made tapping Z too awkward.

>Madness!). Melee combat is "TAB", a convenience I learned from Halo.

    Melee combat is Left Alt.  Always.  Well, sometimes F, but not often. 
TAB is reserved for maps/journal/etc.  Secondary inventory I'll usually try 
to map to the T or B keys to avoid having to lift my hand to use right-side 
keys.

rms 

It was probably around the Quake / Counterstrike time frame that I
moved off of WASD, and onto a variation that was easier in very long
durations of competitive online play.  I'm specifically mentioning
online play because I think the overall intensity is elevated when
playing real time against humans.  You find yourself gritting your
teeth more, veins popping out of your body more, etc.  You don't have
the luxury of just pausing when you want to take a quick break, answer
the phone or take a whizz, you have to wait until the end of round at
least. I haven't seen any specific studies that monitor blood pressure
during online competitive twitch play versus a relaxed run through a
single player campaign, but I bet it would reveal some major
differences in physiological measurements.

So basically I found it was much easier on my hands (which have been
abused thoroughly via sports over the years anyway) to come up with a
scheme that utilized the natural home row (ASDF).  I could describe it
in detail but it's probably nothing anyone else would like.

The immediate benefit I noticed was just lessened hand fatique.  I can
literally look at my hand and see a difference in the movement of
tendons/ligaments between switching between W and S for forward/back
as opposed to my preferred F forward and G for back.  I'm sure that
sounds counterintuitive for some, but the bottom line is that usually,
when I'm "in reverse", I'm not going to use many other keys like
duck/crouch (D) or jump (S).  The A key makes a great zoom/aim key for
me, whereas to do the same with the capslock key would be weird
because its a toggle key, and aim toggle is either a game feature or
its not.  Left and right strafe is space bar to move right and right
mouse button to move left.  Again, I'm sure some of you are scratching
your head at this point, but in some of the original twitch games that
relied on circle strafing, being able to left strafe with the
uber-sensitive mouse button just by letting my finger rest on it was
an amazing discovery, as was using the spacebar to strafe right (which
my thumb was always resting on).  

Do you see what's going on there?  Two functions which are incredibly
important in close-quarters combat were just placed into a
configuration where the weight ratio of the body part (thumb and
middle finger) to the pressure required to engage the switch becomes a
huge advantage, and because it's an action that's performed so often
in Quake-like games, I cannot even begin to describe the impact it had
on my scores over the long haul.

That said, I don't play nearly as many games with lots of strafing
these days.  I actually prefer more tactical, slower paced shooters
like Battlefield and Rainbow Six, where there is not alot of strafe
movement except to adjust an already-zoomed sight on a straight access
slightly or things like that.

So fast forward all these years, and there are still some fucktard
games that don't support key rebinding.  

I can play with WASD when needed, and honestly breaking out of my
habit in a single player is not that big of a deal, but I refuse to
play an online first person game that won't let me use my competitive
key config.  It would be frustrating because every time I get killed
I'm going to be blaming the feature omission.

On Mon, 19 Jun 2017 10:46:30 -0700, Justisaur <just...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On 6/19/2017 8:17 AM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:

>Ah, it's Quake's fault for WASD, damn them!
>
>I far prefer ESDF, as it matches the home keys better, leaving the pinky 
>open for a bunch of rarely used keys.  This is especially true in online 
>games, where switching back and forth for typing to WASD for movement 
>takes up valuable time!

I was waiting for one of you ESDF freaks to appear (just kidding, just
kidding!). 

I tried ESDF a few years ago. Admittedly I didn't give it much of a
go, but I didn't like it. From a purely technical view, it seems to
make sense; shifting your hand one key to the right means you put more
keys - both on left and right - within reach. But I found it quite
uncomfortable. When I play WASD, I find my little finger rests against
the left edge of the CAPSLOCK key, offering orientation and support to
the rest of my hand. When using ESDF, the little finger tries to rest
against the "A" key in a similar manner but the key (and the space
between "A" and CAPSLOCK) is too small for this to be comfortable. 

I get /why/ some people like to use ESDF, but it's just not for me. It
probably has a lot to do with the keyboard and the size of hands too.


>I seem to be mostly using a controller these days too.  I guess I don't 
>play a lot of fp games anymore.  Even GTA V, and the Saints row games 
>I'd switch between controller and keyboard when driving/walking as it's 
>far easier to drive with the controller and far easier to aim guns with 
>the mouse.  Of course that takes even more time than switching from WASD 
>to ESDF

I'm still not anywhere near a comfortable with a controller as I am
with a keyboard. I think this has to do with brain wiring; I was a
keyboard gamer since the days of my youth; I didn't even TOUCH a
gamepad until I was an adult (and even then it was only for
occassional and brief experimentation with the Sega Genesis). I didn't
own a gamepad until maybe 2010, and really didn't start using one
semi-regularly until I bought an XBox360/PS3 in 2014. My brain and
thumbs just aren't wired up to optimally use a controller, unlike a
kid who grew up playing Nintendo.  So it's always keyboard for me, if
it is an option,

On 2017-06-19, Justisaur <just...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 6/19/2017 8:17 AM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
>
>> 
>> It wasn't until Quake that fully-configurable key-binds started to
>> become an accepted - and expected - feature. Customizable controls
>> were available in Id games as early as Wolf3D, but Quake's success
>> turned this oddity into a must-have for all modern games. It also
>> popularized the WASD control scheme.
>> 
>
> Ah, it's Quake's fault for WASD, damn them!
>
> I far prefer ESDF, as it matches the home keys better, leaving the pinky 
> open for a bunch of rarely used keys.  This is especially true in online 
> games, where switching back and forth for typing to WASD for movement 
> takes up valuable time!
>
> I find it a pain to reconfigure every single game though, and I also 
> have to switch around the other keys that EF and C are used for, and end 
> up using WASD most of the time. It's only when I'm playing something 
> online for a long time like EQ or CoX that I bother, and I haven't 
> played anything like that in some time.
>
> I seem to be mostly using a controller these days too.  I guess I don't 
> play a lot of fp games anymore.  Even GTA V, and the Saints row games 
> I'd switch between controller and keyboard when driving/walking as it's 
> far easier to drive with the controller and far easier to aim guns with 
> the mouse.  Of course that takes even more time than switching from WASD 
> to ESDF

This is interesting to read. I'm WASD, but always wish I'd converted
to ESDF because I'm a touch typer and I miss having the F nubbin to
home my left hand without looking.

Hearing your woes about reconfiguring every game makes me realise that
perhaps it isn't so bad going with the WASD flow.

-- 
-Toby
Add the word afiduluminag to the subject to circumvent my email filters.

On 2017-06-19, Rin Stowleigh <rstow...@nevrhadgmail.com> wrote:
>
> It was probably around the Quake / Counterstrike time frame that I
> moved off of WASD, and onto a variation that was easier in very long
> durations of competitive online play.  I'm specifically mentioning
> online play because I think the overall intensity is elevated when
> playing real time against humans.  You find yourself gritting your
> teeth more, veins popping out of your body more, etc.  You don't have
> the luxury of just pausing when you want to take a quick break, answer
> the phone or take a whizz, you have to wait until the end of round at
> least. I haven't seen any specific studies that monitor blood pressure
> during online competitive twitch play versus a relaxed run through a
> single player campaign, but I bet it would reveal some major
> differences in physiological measurements.
>
> So basically I found it was much easier on my hands (which have been
> abused thoroughly via sports over the years anyway) to come up with a
> scheme that utilized the natural home row (ASDF).  I could describe it
> in detail but it's probably nothing anyone else would like.
>
> The immediate benefit I noticed was just lessened hand fatique.  I can
> literally look at my hand and see a difference in the movement of
> tendons/ligaments between switching between W and S for forward/back
> as opposed to my preferred F forward and G for back.  I'm sure that
> sounds counterintuitive for some, but the bottom line is that usually,
> when I'm "in reverse", I'm not going to use many other keys like
> duck/crouch (D) or jump (S).  The A key makes a great zoom/aim key for
> me, whereas to do the same with the capslock key would be weird
> because its a toggle key, and aim toggle is either a game feature or
> its not.  Left and right strafe is space bar to move right and right
> mouse button to move left.  Again, I'm sure some of you are scratching
> your head at this point, but in some of the original twitch games that
> relied on circle strafing, being able to left strafe with the
> uber-sensitive mouse button just by letting my finger rest on it was
> an amazing discovery, as was using the spacebar to strafe right (which
> my thumb was always resting on).  
>
> Do you see what's going on there?  Two functions which are incredibly
> important in close-quarters combat were just placed into a
> configuration where the weight ratio of the body part (thumb and
> middle finger) to the pressure required to engage the switch becomes a
> huge advantage, and because it's an action that's performed so often
> in Quake-like games, I cannot even begin to describe the impact it had
> on my scores over the long haul.

I didn't know you were an octopus.


-- 
-Toby
Add the word afiduluminag to the subject to circumvent my email filters.

Playing Quake Champions currently and the game doesn't seem to have
any way to run a single player empty arena, which means I've not been
able to start up a game on my own and sort out my graphics settings or
keyboard binds without getting pwnd in the process.

The game defaults to mousewheel for switching weapons which doesn't
work well, but I need a quiet space to be able to suss out what all
the weapons feel like and which fingers I want them set to. I feel
like some of the weapon models are a bit less iconic than the
Nailgun and Rocket Launcher designs of old.

I was playing Neon Drive recently and found that the long-throw keys
on my Cherry keyboard were introducing lag that made it difficult to
navigate narrow sections. I ended up playing that game by plugging in
a Hori 360 arcade stick and binding two arcade buttons to Left and
Right. It was much faster than keyboard. Now I can see where Rin is
coming from with his mouse-bind microswitch strafe. Sort of.

-- 
-Toby
Add the word afiduluminag to the subject to circumvent my email filters.

On Tue, 20 Jun 2017 15:38:04 +0100, Toby Newman <goo...@asktoby.com>
wrote:

>On 2017-06-19, Rin Stowleigh <rstow...@nevrhadgmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> It was probably around the Quake / Counterstrike time frame that I
>> moved off of WASD, and onto a variation that was easier in very long
>> durations of competitive online play.  I'm specifically mentioning
>> online play because I think the overall intensity is elevated when
>> playing real time against humans.  You find yourself gritting your
>> teeth more, veins popping out of your body more, etc.  You don't have
>> the luxury of just pausing when you want to take a quick break, answer
>> the phone or take a whizz, you have to wait until the end of round at
>> least. I haven't seen any specific studies that monitor blood pressure
>> during online competitive twitch play versus a relaxed run through a
>> single player campaign, but I bet it would reveal some major
>> differences in physiological measurements.
>>
>> So basically I found it was much easier on my hands (which have been
>> abused thoroughly via sports over the years anyway) to come up with a
>> scheme that utilized the natural home row (ASDF).  I could describe it
>> in detail but it's probably nothing anyone else would like.
>>
>> The immediate benefit I noticed was just lessened hand fatique.  I can
>> literally look at my hand and see a difference in the movement of
>> tendons/ligaments between switching between W and S for forward/back
>> as opposed to my preferred F forward and G for back.  I'm sure that
>> sounds counterintuitive for some, but the bottom line is that usually,
>> when I'm "in reverse", I'm not going to use many other keys like
>> duck/crouch (D) or jump (S).  The A key makes a great zoom/aim key for
>> me, whereas to do the same with the capslock key would be weird
>> because its a toggle key, and aim toggle is either a game feature or
>> its not.  Left and right strafe is space bar to move right and right
>> mouse button to move left.  Again, I'm sure some of you are scratching
>> your head at this point, but in some of the original twitch games that
>> relied on circle strafing, being able to left strafe with the
>> uber-sensitive mouse button just by letting my finger rest on it was
>> an amazing discovery, as was using the spacebar to strafe right (which
>> my thumb was always resting on).  
>>
>> Do you see what's going on there?  Two functions which are incredibly
>> important in close-quarters combat were just placed into a
>> configuration where the weight ratio of the body part (thumb and
>> middle finger) to the pressure required to engage the switch becomes a
>> huge advantage, and because it's an action that's performed so often
>> in Quake-like games, I cannot even begin to describe the impact it had
>> on my scores over the long haul.
>
>I didn't know you were an octopus.

Well there is a part of me that resembles a giant one eyed squid, now
that you mention it ;)

On Tue, 20 Jun 2017 15:43:32 +0100, Toby Newman <goo...@asktoby.com>
wrote:

>Playing Quake Champions currently and the game doesn't seem to have
>any way to run a single player empty arena, which means I've not been
>able to start up a game on my own and sort out my graphics settings or
>keyboard binds without getting pwnd in the process.
>
>The game defaults to mousewheel for switching weapons which doesn't
>work well, but I need a quiet space to be able to suss out what all
>the weapons feel like and which fingers I want them set to. I feel
>like some of the weapon models are a bit less iconic than the
>Nailgun and Rocket Launcher designs of old.
>
>I was playing Neon Drive recently and found that the long-throw keys
>on my Cherry keyboard were introducing lag that made it difficult to
>navigate narrow sections. I ended up playing that game by plugging in
>a Hori 360 arcade stick and binding two arcade buttons to Left and
>Right. It was much faster than keyboard. Now I can see where Rin is
>coming from with his mouse-bind microswitch strafe. Sort of.

Part of it is that because of the weight of the two digits in question
(middle finger on the right mouse button, and thumb for space bar)
relative to the pressure required for the switch.  The result is kind
of "erring on the side of a press", if that makes sense. If in doubt,
the switch should engage. So you'll be pressing it alot, sometimes
even accidentally, but that's ok if it's only a strafing movement
(actually helps you be a moving target).  The same strategy would not
work if you put a heavy finger on something like the left mouse
button, because accidental fire is never a good thing (loss of ammo,
noise reveals your position, might friendly fire a teammate, etc).

It produces some wicked results in games where you frequently get in
one on one shootouts, down a long corridor, with something like a
sniper rifle or railgun.  I come out ahead in those shootouts most of
the time (not bragging, just saying my strafe method is usually better
than the oppositions.  Not always).

Spalls Hurgenson <spallsh...@gmail.com> writes:

> ... It does make setting up a new game always more of a chore than it
> ought to be...

Yeah. I don't usually bother with key mapping for that reason. Sometimes
it has happened that some function is mapped to a really inconvenient or
even non-existing key or isn't mapped at all by default so in those
cases I do bother of course. I guess it's partly because I don't play
that many games at all and usually just a few at the same time.

The other part is that I use different computers with different
keyboards often anyways. Laptop keyboards especially... My new Dell
laptop at work is a right pain, they put home and end on arrow keys
behind the Fn key and Fn is right next to the windows key... So I seem
to be hitting Windows+left or right quite a lot without meaning to.

On 6/20/2017 6:36 AM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
> On Mon, 19 Jun 2017 10:46:30 -0700, Justisaur <just...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> 
>> On 6/19/2017 8:17 AM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
> 
>> I seem to be mostly using a controller these days too.  I guess I don't
>> play a lot of fp games anymore.  Even GTA V, and the Saints row games
>> I'd switch between controller and keyboard when driving/walking as it's
>> far easier to drive with the controller and far easier to aim guns with
>> the mouse.  Of course that takes even more time than switching from WASD
>> to ESDF
> 
> I'm still not anywhere near a comfortable with a controller as I am
> with a keyboard. I think this has to do with brain wiring; I was a
> keyboard gamer since the days of my youth; I didn't even TOUCH a
> gamepad until I was an adult (and even then it was only for
> occassional and brief experimentation with the Sega Genesis). I didn't
> own a gamepad until maybe 2010, and really didn't start using one
> semi-regularly until I bought an XBox360/PS3 in 2014. My brain and
> thumbs just aren't wired up to optimally use a controller, unlike a
> kid who grew up playing Nintendo.  So it's always keyboard for me, if
> it is an option,
> 

I didn't have a console until I was in my late teens and that was a 
intellivision, which has a completely different type of controller (and 
pretty awkward for at least half the games.), and I didn't play it that 
much.  I never owned a nintendo until we got a used gamecube maybe 10 
years ago.  I did get a playstation 2 about 15ish years ago, but I was 
well into my 30's by then.  I did play a lot of video games at the 
arcade as a young whippersnapper, so maybe that had something to do with it.

- Justisaur

On Wed, 21 Jun 2017 04:38:13 -0700, Justisaur <just...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On 6/20/2017 6:36 AM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
>> On Mon, 19 Jun 2017 10:46:30 -0700, Justisaur <just...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> On 6/19/2017 8:17 AM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
>> 
>>> I seem to be mostly using a controller these days too.  I guess I don't
>>> play a lot of fp games anymore.  Even GTA V, and the Saints row games
>>> I'd switch between controller and keyboard when driving/walking as it's
>>> far easier to drive with the controller and far easier to aim guns with
>>> the mouse.  Of course that takes even more time than switching from WASD
>>> to ESDF
>> 
>> I'm still not anywhere near a comfortable with a controller as I am
>> with a keyboard. I think this has to do with brain wiring; I was a
>> keyboard gamer since the days of my youth; I didn't even TOUCH a
>> gamepad until I was an adult (and even then it was only for
>> occassional and brief experimentation with the Sega Genesis). I didn't
>> own a gamepad until maybe 2010, and really didn't start using one
>> semi-regularly until I bought an XBox360/PS3 in 2014. My brain and
>> thumbs just aren't wired up to optimally use a controller, unlike a
>> kid who grew up playing Nintendo.  So it's always keyboard for me, if
>> it is an option,
>> 
>
>I didn't have a console until I was in my late teens and that was a 
>intellivision, which has a completely different type of controller (and 
>pretty awkward for at least half the games.), and I didn't play it that 
>much.  I never owned a nintendo until we got a used gamecube maybe 10 
>years ago.  I did get a playstation 2 about 15ish years ago, but I was 
>well into my 30's by then.  I did play a lot of video games at the 
>arcade as a young whippersnapper, so maybe that had something to do with it.

At times I think my tolerance for different controllers or control
schemes on a per-game basis stems from the variety of early
controllers I used for various games.

Some of the more bizarre examples:

1. The original Bally/Midway cocktail table version of Space Invaders
didn't move your ship with a joystick, it had this 3 position knob to
move left or right that was more like something you'd find on
commercial kitchen equipment.  Not only that, but it was vertically
positioned (so that your wrist was bent backward, forearm horizontal
but hand vertical).  I struggled to even find a picture of it, but
finally did:

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTcVMvKKDVP-sjWOupdxA017rMmim5WOb94L_no60cDbn0JUzDHXA

2.  The default ColecoVision controllers, which were a travesty of
input design for an otherwise outstanding game system:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f0/ColecoVision-Controller-FL.jpg
3.  The "Super Action" Colecovision controller, very high quality for
it's day but still an indication of the skill level (or lack thereof)
of the people designing controllers for the home market. 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ef/Super_Action_Controller_Coleco_DSCF0353.JPG

How hard was it to just look at what was working in the arcades and go
with that plus a keypad?  Other systems of the era (like Atari 5200)
seemed to have the same struggles.  It puzzled me how anyone could
come up with successors like this to such a magically simple and
effective device as the Atari 2600 controller.  It's almost like they
designed these controllers to look slick, but forgot to actually try
them out in games before mass producing.  Luckily in the case of
Colecovision, the games were so good that the controller faults were
forgivable.

4.  The Intellivision controllers

I never owned one of these console, and the reason why was probably
the controllers.  I used to regularly play it, though.  A department
store that was in my area had one of these consoles on display, and I
would regularly go in and play it for extended periods of time.  There
was usually no clerk on duty in that part of the store, and as long as
you didn't go on a Saturday there was rarely anyone else waiting in
line to try it.  The controller was a travesty.  Those little plastic
overlays that you inserted over that cheap keypad. And most of all
that fucking little disc for directional movement!  What's worse I
think this thing might have been the inspiration for the ColecoVision
controller designers....

http://www.videogameconsolelibrary.com/images/1970s/79_Mattel_Intellivision/Mattel_Intellivision_Controller-tan.jpg


5. Magnavox Odyssey 2

I had one of these.  The controller input was digital, but I think
these controllers were actually analog sticks (with a long throw) that
was really inappropriate for the types of games on the thing.  But,
they were far from the worst I've tried and this console actually had
some great titles that I spent dozens of hours on.

6.  Countless "weird" arcade games.

Some of these had interesting solutions, like the dual joysticks in
Crazy Climber (if you never played this, trust me its weird), the bike
handlebars in Paperboy, the interesting "steering wheel" of Spy
Hunter.  

http://www.8-bitcentral.com/images/reviews/arcade/spyHunterControls.jpg

Just having exposure to lots of control variation probably made me
more flexible about controllers overall.

So fast forward all these years, and with the exception of the
keybinding scheme I mentioned elsewhere in this thread (which I
require for online shooters), I've found that most games are best
played "as designed" with regard to control.  In other words, if it
was designed for a gamepad, forcing it to be a kbd+mouse game is often
not worthwhile, even if the developers say it "supports" such a
scheme.

On Tue, 20 Jun 2017 15:43:32 +0100, Toby Newman <goo...@asktoby.com>
wrote:

>Playing Quake Champions currently and the game doesn't seem to have
>any way to run a single player empty arena, which means I've not been
>able to start up a game on my own and sort out my graphics settings or
>keyboard binds without getting pwnd in the process.

To do this, start a custom game and launch the match with your
opposing team empty.  I'm adjusting to a new mouse (Logitech G502
Proteus) and did this a bit earlier today.

On 2017-06-21, Rin Stowleigh <rstow...@nevrhadgmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Jun 2017 04:38:13 -0700, Justisaur <just...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>On 6/20/2017 6:36 AM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
>>> On Mon, 19 Jun 2017 10:46:30 -0700, Justisaur <just...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> On 6/19/2017 8:17 AM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
>>> 
>>>> I seem to be mostly using a controller these days too.  I guess I don't
>>>> play a lot of fp games anymore.  Even GTA V, and the Saints row games
>>>> I'd switch between controller and keyboard when driving/walking as it's
>>>> far easier to drive with the controller and far easier to aim guns with
>>>> the mouse.  Of course that takes even more time than switching from WASD
>>>> to ESDF
>>> 
>>> I'm still not anywhere near a comfortable with a controller as I am
>>> with a keyboard. I think this has to do with brain wiring; I was a
>>> keyboard gamer since the days of my youth; I didn't even TOUCH a
>>> gamepad until I was an adult (and even then it was only for
>>> occassional and brief experimentation with the Sega Genesis). I didn't
>>> own a gamepad until maybe 2010, and really didn't start using one
>>> semi-regularly until I bought an XBox360/PS3 in 2014. My brain and
>>> thumbs just aren't wired up to optimally use a controller, unlike a
>>> kid who grew up playing Nintendo.  So it's always keyboard for me, if
>>> it is an option,
>>> 
>>
>>I didn't have a console until I was in my late teens and that was a 
>>intellivision, which has a completely different type of controller (and 
>>pretty awkward for at least half the games.), and I didn't play it that 
>>much.  I never owned a nintendo until we got a used gamecube maybe 10 
>>years ago.  I did get a playstation 2 about 15ish years ago, but I was 
>>well into my 30's by then.  I did play a lot of video games at the 
>>arcade as a young whippersnapper, so maybe that had something to do with it.
>
> At times I think my tolerance for different controllers or control
> schemes on a per-game basis stems from the variety of early
> controllers I used for various games.

Any list of bad joysticks has to include the cheetah characteristick
alien edition.

-- 
-Toby
Add the word afiduluminag to the subject to circumvent my email filters.

Rin Stowleigh <rstow...@nevrhadgmail.com> writes:

> Just having exposure to lots of control variation probably made me
> more flexible about controllers overall.

Come to think of it, same for me. Different joysticks on mostly the
Commodore 64 (mine and friends') and different control schemes in arcade
games, in the 80s. Then various joysticks with PC games in early 90s
before the mouse-and-keyboard domination. More recently various
controllers, I've had a Saitek P2500, some kind of digital pad from
Microsoft, Razer Onza and most recently Xbox 360 controller on the
PC. I've also played some games on PS2 and Xbox 360.

On Thu, 22 Jun 2017 13:00:10 +0100, Toby Newman <goo...@asktoby.com>
wrote:

>On 2017-06-21, Rin Stowleigh <rstow...@nevrhadgmail.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 21 Jun 2017 04:38:13 -0700, Justisaur <just...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>On 6/20/2017 6:36 AM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 19 Jun 2017 10:46:30 -0700, Justisaur <just...@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> On 6/19/2017 8:17 AM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> I seem to be mostly using a controller these days too.  I guess I don't
>>>>> play a lot of fp games anymore.  Even GTA V, and the Saints row games
>>>>> I'd switch between controller and keyboard when driving/walking as it's
>>>>> far easier to drive with the controller and far easier to aim guns with
>>>>> the mouse.  Of course that takes even more time than switching from WASD
>>>>> to ESDF
>>>> 
>>>> I'm still not anywhere near a comfortable with a controller as I am
>>>> with a keyboard. I think this has to do with brain wiring; I was a
>>>> keyboard gamer since the days of my youth; I didn't even TOUCH a
>>>> gamepad until I was an adult (and even then it was only for
>>>> occassional and brief experimentation with the Sega Genesis). I didn't
>>>> own a gamepad until maybe 2010, and really didn't start using one
>>>> semi-regularly until I bought an XBox360/PS3 in 2014. My brain and
>>>> thumbs just aren't wired up to optimally use a controller, unlike a
>>>> kid who grew up playing Nintendo.  So it's always keyboard for me, if
>>>> it is an option,
>>>> 
>>>
>>>I didn't have a console until I was in my late teens and that was a 
>>>intellivision, which has a completely different type of controller (and 
>>>pretty awkward for at least half the games.), and I didn't play it that 
>>>much.  I never owned a nintendo until we got a used gamecube maybe 10 
>>>years ago.  I did get a playstation 2 about 15ish years ago, but I was 
>>>well into my 30's by then.  I did play a lot of video games at the 
>>>arcade as a young whippersnapper, so maybe that had something to do with it.
>>
>> At times I think my tolerance for different controllers or control
>> schemes on a per-game basis stems from the variety of early
>> controllers I used for various games.
>
>Any list of bad joysticks has to include the cheetah characteristick
>alien edition.

Is it this abomination?
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/b8/dd/98/b8dd983faf62db8d223fd68c504b24cb.jpg

or maybe this:   https://edge.alluremedia.com.au/m/l/2014/05/Alien.jpg
(looks like a sex toy for Dennis Rodman or something)

I wasn't able to locate it using "characteristick" as a search term.

Here's a candidate for most innovative dedicated simulator controller:
http://hgutl.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/75228_452608764804690_2078876843_n.jpg

On Thu, 22 Jun 2017 16:12:41 +0300, Anssi Saari <a...@sci.fi> wrote:

>Rin Stowleigh <rstow...@nevrhadgmail.com> writes:
>
>> Just having exposure to lots of control variation probably made me
>> more flexible about controllers overall.
>
>Come to think of it, same for me. Different joysticks on mostly the
>Commodore 64 (mine and friends') and different control schemes in arcade
>games, in the 80s. Then various joysticks with PC games in early 90s
>before the mouse-and-keyboard domination. More recently various
>controllers, I've had a Saitek P2500, some kind of digital pad from
>Microsoft, Razer Onza and most recently Xbox 360 controller on the
>PC. I've also played some games on PS2 and Xbox 360.

I had a Razer Onza and really liked it until it shit the bed, by that
time they had discontinued the model and replaced it with something
else.  I guess Razer doesn't make PC controllers anymore.

Spalls Hurgenson  <spallsh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>As mentioned, WASD has become the standard, with space for jump, E for
>use, etc. But everyone has their own quirks, their own additions to
>this basic scheme. 
>
>It took me a long time to switch over to WASD and, indeed,
>mouse+keyboard gaming.

I'm left handed and never used WASD for control, at least not for long.
Being able to remap the keys so I can use the number pad for control is
a must for me in games.  I don't recall having much trouble with mouse
and keyboard gaming, though I remember have to adjust to always-on mouse
look, but it didn't take long.  On the other hand, there were a couple
of early games with mouse support that I remeber being annoyed that
mouse controls were half-assed.

>Still, some old habits of my long-time deference to using the arrow
>keys still remain with me to this day. Most notably is the fact that I
>inevitably rebind "X" to my jump key. I will be the first to admit
>that the Spacebar is probably the better choice but the first FPS game
>I played that had jumping in it - Dark Forces - used "X-to-jump" and
>I've been loathe to re-learn. Similarly, the Spacebar will always be
>the "use key" for me; if it was good enough for Wolf3D and Doom, it's
>good enough for all these modern-day Doom-clones, thank-you-very-much!

If possible I try to set up the keyboard controls the way they were when
I played in Thief. (I can't remember if they were setup that way by the
game, or if I remapped them.)  I use 8/2 (on the number pad) for move
forward/back.  4/6 for turn left/right, 1/3 for side-step left/right,
7/9 for lean left/right.  0 is jump, and 5 is crouch.

Most games don't have all those controlls though, so usually 7 becomes
the action button, 9 cancel (or maybe zoom), 4/6 becomes move left/right.
Often the slash key (/) becomes melee or auto-run.  The asterisk (*)
key is often some sort of healing key.  The plus (+) key brings up the
map or some sort of menu.  Keypadl Enter is for reload.  The arrow keys
and the Insert to Page Down cluster gets mapped to pretty much any other
functionality I'd want to use with out having to take my hand off the
mouse or look down at the keyboard.

One problem with this is that its easy to run of keys.  I want all the
important keys frequently used on the keypad, as the clusters to the
left are a bit clumsy to use.  There's also no shift keys in the area,
so ghosting can be a problem if you need to hold down multiple keys
at the same time.  For that reason I often map an important function
that needs to be used at the same time as pressing a key, like sprint,
to the right mouse button. 

In practice this means that keyboard layouts can vary for me a fair bit
between games.  This usually isn't a problem, but I've learned that when
playing a game sequel to copy the controls that I had set up in original
as closely as possible.  Otherwise my muscle memory is going be reaching
for the wrong key at some critical momement.

This has given me a list of pet peeves.

* Games should, with very limitted exeptions, allow remapping of all
actions and all keys.

An acceptable exception is keep ESC bound to he main menu so that
there's always some consistent way to do things like remap keys and exit
the game regardless of how things have been remapped, but otherwise
everything should be mappable.  It annoys me when I can't rebind some
key because some arbitrary limitation of the game.  DirectInput can
distiguish between all the keys on the keyboard, but many games have
odd restrictions that they themselves impose.  Less common are games
that don't let you remap certain actions, which can be a real pain if
they're more than rarely used.

* Games should allow mapping more than one key to an action.

I like games that do this so I can keep the right handed WASD controls
the way they are.  This means that when the game says press the "R"
key, I can just press the "R" key and move on instead of having to
stop to figure out what action was bound to the "R" key so I can find
out what key I've mapped that action to.  Ideally games would change
the game text so it tells you to press the correct key, but most don't
and this doesn't help you when a post online less use to press the "R"
key to get past some problem.  I've also used the ability to map multiple
keys to an action to map both numpad 4/6 and 1/3 to move left/right in
games where there aren't seperate turn and strafe actions.

* Keyboards with non-standard layouts

Microsoft and Logitech have found various ways to mess with the layout
of keyboards in order to save space (and money). Usually by shrinking
the function keys to uselessness and/or moving around the keys in
the clusters to the left of keypad.  As a gamer I want the keys to be
full sized and were I expect them to be, and as a left handed gamer,
that especially includes all the keys on right side of the keyboard.
Unfortunately these days the only keyboards that keep the standard US
101 key layout are expensive $100 gaming keyboards and cheap low end
keyboards with various issues.

-- 
 l/  //	  Ross Ridge -- The Great HTMU
[oo][oo]  rri...@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
-()-/()/  http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca/~rridge/ 
 db  //	  

On 2017-06-21, Rin Stowleigh <rstow...@nevrhadgmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Jun 2017 15:43:32 +0100, Toby Newman <goo...@asktoby.com>
> wrote:
>
>>Playing Quake Champions currently and the game doesn't seem to have
>>any way to run a single player empty arena, which means I've not been
>>able to start up a game on my own and sort out my graphics settings or
>>keyboard binds without getting pwnd in the process.
>
> To do this, start a custom game and launch the match with your
> opposing team empty.  I'm adjusting to a new mouse (Logitech G502
> Proteus) and did this a bit earlier today.

Works, thanks for the tip!


-- 
-Toby
Add the word afiduluminag to the subject to circumvent my email filters.

On 2017-06-22, Rin Stowleigh <rstow...@nevrhadgmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 22 Jun 2017 13:00:10 +0100, Toby Newman <goo...@asktoby.com>
> wrote:
>
>>On 2017-06-21, Rin Stowleigh <rstow...@nevrhadgmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 21 Jun 2017 04:38:13 -0700, Justisaur <just...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On 6/20/2017 6:36 AM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 19 Jun 2017 10:46:30 -0700, Justisaur <just...@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 6/19/2017 8:17 AM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> I seem to be mostly using a controller these days too.  I guess I don't
>>>>>> play a lot of fp games anymore.  Even GTA V, and the Saints row games
>>>>>> I'd switch between controller and keyboard when driving/walking as it's
>>>>>> far easier to drive with the controller and far easier to aim guns with
>>>>>> the mouse.  Of course that takes even more time than switching from WASD
>>>>>> to ESDF
>>>>> 
>>>>> I'm still not anywhere near a comfortable with a controller as I am
>>>>> with a keyboard. I think this has to do with brain wiring; I was a
>>>>> keyboard gamer since the days of my youth; I didn't even TOUCH a
>>>>> gamepad until I was an adult (and even then it was only for
>>>>> occassional and brief experimentation with the Sega Genesis). I didn't
>>>>> own a gamepad until maybe 2010, and really didn't start using one
>>>>> semi-regularly until I bought an XBox360/PS3 in 2014. My brain and
>>>>> thumbs just aren't wired up to optimally use a controller, unlike a
>>>>> kid who grew up playing Nintendo.  So it's always keyboard for me, if
>>>>> it is an option,
>>>>> 
>>>>
>>>>I didn't have a console until I was in my late teens and that was a 
>>>>intellivision, which has a completely different type of controller (and 
>>>>pretty awkward for at least half the games.), and I didn't play it that 
>>>>much.  I never owned a nintendo until we got a used gamecube maybe 10 
>>>>years ago.  I did get a playstation 2 about 15ish years ago, but I was 
>>>>well into my 30's by then.  I did play a lot of video games at the 
>>>>arcade as a young whippersnapper, so maybe that had something to do with it.
>>>
>>> At times I think my tolerance for different controllers or control
>>> schemes on a per-game basis stems from the variety of early
>>> controllers I used for various games.
>>
>>Any list of bad joysticks has to include the cheetah characteristick
>>alien edition.
>
> Is it this abomination?
> https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/b8/dd/98/b8dd983faf62db8d223fd68c504b24cb.jpg
>
> or maybe this:   https://edge.alluremedia.com.au/m/l/2014/05/Alien.jpg
> (looks like a sex toy for Dennis Rodman or something)

That's the one!

> I wasn't able to locate it using "characteristick" as a search term.
>
> Here's a candidate for most innovative dedicated simulator controller:
> http://hgutl.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/75228_452608764804690_2078876843_n.jpg
>


-- 
-Toby
Add the word afiduluminag to the subject to circumvent my email filters.