🚀 go-pugleaf

In article <43fd37$6...@regiss.optera.com>, got...@regiss.optera.com
(ABHOTH DAIMONIZOMAI) wrote:

> Is it just me, or are Origin programmers just really lazy and stupid?

Well *here's* a good reasonable argument.  Did you recently graduate from
charm school?  If you ever hope to be taken seriously, I would suggest you
don't start out threads like this.  I doubt whether the programmers at
Origin are either lazy or stupid.  You I don't know about (I doubt you're
lazy because you did such a good job typing in all this stuff, and
cross-posted it so well).

> The reason I say this is because they hype their games as being
> oh-so-high-tech and state-of-the-art-push-the-envelope stuff, but yet
> their games really aren't all that much more spectacular than some of the
> stuff already out. 

Well, now this *is* a valid issue to raise.  Maybe the question should be,
"are Origin's games worth upgrading your PC for?"

> The only difference, of course, is that Origin's games
> are generally slow and require the current top-of-the-line PC to run at a
> reasonable speed. Origin likes to put big hefty system requirements on
> their so-called state-of-the-art games, and I guess that makes them feel
> special or something... that you need a Pentium to run their games, even
> though they are EXTREMELY over-rated. Case in point, Cybermage. Huge 9 meg
> demo. The game is pitifully slow on a Pentium 90 at high res with all
> detail on. And what's so special about it? Graphics are nothing exciting,
> and everything is still 90 degrees. Oh, but it's SVGA, so I guess that
> makes it cool. So it requires a Pentium with 16 megs for SVGA. What a
> joke! I can run Terminal Velocity on the same system (which IMO is more
> fun with better grafx) and it's a lot faster, this is with only 8 megs of
> RAM too. Why is Cybermage so slow? Hmm... maybe that the programmers
> suck?? 

In the real world this kind of infantile reasoning would get you
anywhere.  However, on the 'net it makes you just "one of the boyz."  This
is just puerile crap.

> They are too damn lazy to write some clean and efficient code that
> will give us nice pretty grafx AND good frame rates? This isn't something
> new with Origin BTW. Do we remember Strike Commander and Pacific Strike? 
> I do! They were terrible, and SLOW, and not very impressive at all. This
> seems to be a continuing trend with Origin. Write games that require the
> most expensive PC on the market, thereby undercutting a huge mid-range to
> low-end market, and the damn games SUCK and aren't that great to begin
> with. Why is this? Origin must think "well gee, it runs on a Pentium 133
> so lets just leave it alone" instead of tweaking it and making sure that
> it runs just as well on the slower systems. I guess Origin is just afraid
> of hard work, they just want the money, that's all.

Yep, that's it - Origin wants the money so bad they release stuff that
doesn't run on most of the machines out there.  Hey, wait a minute - if
they *really* wanted the money wouldn't they "tweak" the code so more
people would buy it?  After all, by aiming at the high-end machine they
shut out part [most] of their market?

> Now I see Origin
> hyping this new "AH64D Apache Longbow" sim. Supposedly, as rumor has it,
> this will require a Pentium 133 (or P6) for full detail. Wow, that's neat.
> I've seen GIFs. It doesn't look that damn great. 

If you can infer how good a game is from rumors and GIFs, then how will
Battlecruiser 3000AD be?  I'm curious.

> I've seen Origin people
> poking fun at I-Magic's "Apache" sim for being unrealistic and outdated.
> HA! I have the sim and it's excellent. Best game I have played in a LONG
> time. Gee Origin, maybe before you start talking sh*t about someone elses
> product, you should MAKE SURE YOUR PRODUCT HAS BEEN RELEASED FIRST. 

So maybe people at Origin have an attitude problem.  Unlike you.

> Until
> then, shut up. And what was the last really good game Origin has released
> in the past 2-3 years? WC3? Lets compare the duds Origin has released to
> the good games they have released:  Good games: WC3, Ultima 7 part 2
> Crappy games: Strike Commander, Pacific Strike, Wings of Glory, Ultima 8,
> BioForge, Cybermage, System Shock (some might argue with me about this,
> but hey, the game was boring, slow, and the plot sucked)... etc etc
> That's not a very good record. Looks like Origin is batting around .111 
> which, even if you hate baseball, is a really bad average. Good luck in 
> the future, Origin. I think you'll need it... but probably not, since 
> you've got a whole legion of slobbering Origin groupies who will buy any 
> piece of trash that you release just because it has your logo on it.
> 

Well, what makes a 'good game' by your definition?  Some of the 'duds' you
mention tried to go in new directions - BioForge, for one.  Is the fact
that it didn't do a good job (IMHO) a strike against them?  Even U8 was an
attempt to do something different, with all the animation and emphasis on
action vs rpg elements.  I didn't have any problems with it technically,
although I believe most, if not all, slobbering Avatar groupies hated it.

And to put System Shock on the 'losers' list is truly dumb.  Technically
it's a great game.  And I liked the plot and pace just fine, thanks.

I'm not an Origin apologist nor a slobbering groupie, but someone who buys
and plays their games now and then.  And some of the arguments you put
forth have validity (like "what technical features does Origin put in
games that forces them to the high-end machines?"). Maybe it's Origin's
marketing department's idea of 'snob appeal?"   But to say that their
programmers are stupid, fat, lazy, etc, does nothing but pour flames on
the fire.

If more people feel like you, that Origin's games are NOT worth it, then
feel free to exercise your right to not purchase their games.  Given
enough time they will either change their direction or go out of
business.  That's how it works.  That's how it oughta work.


> 

[snip]
>                      SUPPORT THE WAR AGAINST CHRISTIANITY

[snip]

Better watch yourself, boy, you're playing with fire, and you're most
certainly on the losing side.

chuck

|-- Chuck McMath -- McMa...@mediasoft.net -or-- ch...@ocs.com -----|
|-- Reed Technology & Information Services, Inc. -------------------|
|-- 20251 Century Blvd. -- Germantown, MD  20874 -------------------|
|-------------- "Hey Batter, Hey Batter, swing!" - Anon.------------|
|--------------- Jeans by Jordache, Body By Fritos -----------------|

>> 

>[snip]
>>                      SUPPORT THE WAR AGAINST CHRISTIANITY

>[snip]

>Better watch yourself, boy, you're playing with fire, and you're most
>certainly on the losing side.

>chuck

 Chuck,

   Uhhh...everyone knows that Christians are against technology, and learning,
and intelligence in general.  If being for higher learning, education, 
technology, and the freedom of the individual is on the losing side - I think 
I'll just join up now.

got...@regiss.optera.com (ABHOTH DAIMONIZOMAI) wrote:
> Origin likes to put big hefty system requirements on
>their so-called state-of-the-art games, and I guess that makes them feel
>special or something... that you need a Pentium to run their games, even
>though they are EXTREMELY over-rated. 

Yes, but if you go to their homepage, it says they make games
for high end computers.  



> Good luck in 
>the future, Origin. I think you'll need it... but probably not, since 
>you've got a whole legion of slobbering Origin groupies who will buy any 
>piece of trash that you release just because it has your logo on it.

I think you underestimate the intelligence of these so-called "Origin
groupies".  Lots of them did not buy Ultima 8 (I did, and liked it),
and sales were not that impressive.  But I guess if you don`t like
Origin games, just don`t buy them.  

>-Aaron

>                     SUPPORT THE WAR AGAINST CHRISTIANITY
>                           FUCK CHRIST, HAIL SATAN


You lose all credibility with stupid slogans like this.



> |  SUPPORT THE WAR AGAINST CHRISTIANITY. CHRISTIANITY IS FOR THE WEAK AND   |
> |  WEAK-WILLED. I AM THE TAOG THAT SHALL SEIZE THE THRONE OF IHVH AND       |
>_|_ DEFECATE UPON THE ALTAR OF JESUS CHRIST THE CRUCIFIED WHORE. BEHOLD THE _|_
> |  NEW AEON OF BLASPHEMY! ESIARP EHT TAOG. 666. Fuck You.  



No, fuck you!



Tim Lamb
http://www.compusmart.ab.ca/warf/                 |

On 16 Sep 1995, Tim Lamb wrote:

> Yes, but if you go to their homepage, it says they make games
> for high end computers.  

	Does that change anything? LucasArts page doesn't say that make 
game for low end computers. But they do. And make perfect games. IMO, 
much better than Origin. In any aspect.

> and sales were not that impressive.  But I guess if you don`t like
> Origin games, just don`t buy them.  

	That's absolutely right. Origin definitely has its own style which
I however don't like. So I won't buy. But I know many people will. 

Alex.
"Never pay more than 20 bucks for a computer game" - Guybrush Threepwood, 
Monkey Island. 

In article <McMath_C-160...@ras120.mediasoft.net>, McMa...@mediasoft.net (Chuck ...E's In Love... McMath) says:

>Well, what makes a 'good game' by your definition?  Some of the 'duds' you
>mention tried to go in new directions - BioForge, for one.  Is the fact
>that it didn't do a good job (IMHO) a strike against them?  Even U8 was an



I rather liked Bioforge.  It runs great on my p90 and I think the story is
quite compelling. Also, any game which lets you grab a mans severed arm 
and beat him to death with it can't be too bad.


							Jim V


>I wan't to die like my father, in my sleep.
>Not screaming, like his passengers.

In article <Pine.SV4.3.91.950916181026.20205G-100000@larry> Alexei Vyacheslavovich Novikov <ano...@emory.edu> writes:

>On 16 Sep 1995, Tim Lamb wrote:

>> Yes, but if you go to their homepage, it says they make games
>> for high end computers.  

>        Does that change anything? LucasArts page doesn't say that make 
>game for low end computers. But they do. And make perfect games. IMO, 
>much better than Origin. In any aspect.


In some respects, I'm prone to agree. LucasArts really has their act together. 
My all-time favorite computer game was LucasArts' Habitat, although Ultimas 4, 
3, and 2 occupy the next three slots. LucasArts, however, is still producing 
games correctly targeted for their audience. 

I'm hoping that Ultima 9 will find its place in my top 5, but it would have to 
be a major departure from the pattern developed by 7, 7.5 and 8 to do so.

-Fallible Dragon

--
William D. Herrin                  her...@why.com her...@ultima.cms.udel.edu 
6857 Lafayette Park Dr.         her...@cc.gatech.edu her...@onrhq.onr.navy.mil
Annandale, VA 22003               Fallibl...@ultima.why.com -==(UDIC)==-
Web: <http://www.why.com/herrin/>    PGP Public Key Available via web page

In article <43gcbl$q...@ruby.ucc.nau.edu> j...@dana.ucc.nau.edu (Joshua L. Willingham) writes:

>Hey Aaron, 

>I noticed that that your "article" was crossposted into a.g.u.d.  Seems 
>to me that you had more motive behind this crap than just saying Origin's 
>games were "slow."

  Of course, he's trying to flood the group with a flame war. He's done this 
before. The surprising thing this time is that he tried to find a relevant 
topic to start the flame war about. If he keeps this up, I may have to upgrade 
my estimate of his intelligence. That would make him actually -more- 
intelligent than a gerbil.

-Fal

--
William D. Herrin                  her...@why.com her...@ultima.cms.udel.edu 
6857 Lafayette Park Dr.         her...@cc.gatech.edu her...@onrhq.onr.navy.mil
Annandale, VA 22003               Fallibl...@ultima.why.com -==(UDIC)==-
Web: <http://www.why.com/herrin/>    PGP Public Key Available via web page

In article <herrin.44...@why.com> her...@why.com (William Herrin) writes:
>From: her...@why.com (William Herrin)
>Subject: Re: Why Origin Sucks (various bitchings)
>Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 16:30:08 GMT

>In article <43gcbl$q...@ruby.ucc.nau.edu> j...@dana.ucc.nau.edu (Joshua L.
>Willingham) writes:

>>Hey Aaron, 

>>I noticed that that your "article" was crossposted into a.g.u.d.  Seems 
>>to me that you had more motive behind this crap than just saying Origin's 
>>games were "slow."

>  Of course, he's trying to flood the group with a flame war. He's done this 
>before. The surprising thing this time is that he tried to find a relevant 
>topic to start the flame war about. If he keeps this up, I may have to upgrade 
>my estimate of his intelligence. That would make him actually -more- 
>intelligent than a gerbil.

>-Fal

>--
>William D. Herrin                  her...@why.com her...@ultima.cms.udel.edu 
>6857 Lafayette Park Dr.         her...@cc.gatech.edu her...@onrhq.onr.navy.mil
>Annandale, VA 22003               Fallibl...@ultima.why.com -==(UDIC)==-
>Web: <http://www.why.com/herrin/>    PGP Public Key Available via web page



Seems to me that you must put on your reseme, when applying for a job at
ORIGIN, yes I have gone to the school of endless hard drive access so you
can be assured of more endless hard drive access in ORIGIN games if you
hire me. There simply must be a school of this sort out there somewhere
because all of the ORIGIN programers have obviously been to it and passed
the course. IE WC3 with it's long mission load times, although I did like the
game. If you want to shorten mission load times somewhat add this 
line to your CONFIG.SYS.  BUFFERS=64  this will setup a small disk
cash and decrease mission load times by about half. Before I go out 
and purchase WC4 this christmas I think I'll go and upgrade to a 
pentium with lots of ram and a fast SCSI 2 hard drive. Anyone think
ORIGIN gets kick backs from INTEL?






       rsb...@mountain-inter.net

In article <43fd37$6...@regiss.optera.com>, got...@regiss.optera.com (ABHOTH DAIMONIZOMAI) says:


>-- 
> |  SUPPORT THE WAR AGAINST CHRISTIANITY. CHRISTIANITY IS FOR THE WEAK AND   |
> |  WEAK-WILLED. I AM THE TAOG THAT SHALL SEIZE THE THRONE OF IHVH AND       |
>_|_ DEFECATE UPON THE ALTAR OF JESUS CHRIST THE CRUCIFIED WHORE. BEHOLD THE _|_
> |  NEW AEON OF BLASPHEMY! ESIARP EHT TAOG. 666. Fuck You.                   |



You need to get your shit together, bud.  I am not a religious fanatic,
but it sounds to me like you desperately need attention.  Maybe you 
should find a hobby other than sacrificing household pets.  Macrame 
perhaps???

got...@regiss.optera.com (ABHOTH DAIMONIZOMAI) wrote:

>Is it just me, or are Origin programmers just really lazy and stupid? The

I don't think its the programmers, I think its the people that market their
stuff, and tell them what to write.

>reason I say this is because they hype their games as being
>oh-so-high-tech and state-of-the-art-push-the-envelope stuff, but yet
>their games really aren't all that much more spectacular than some of the
>stuff already out. The only difference, of course, is that Origin's games

Well, as I said before, companies HAVE to push stuff like this in peoples
faces nowadays to get people to buy things (Well, other than ID..).

>though they are EXTREMELY over-rated. Case in point, Cybermage. Huge 9 meg

I would have to go for WC3 being extremely over-rated. It was so hyped in
every magazine, yet a friend of mine bought the game, thought it sucked, gave
it to me, and I thought it sucked, and i gave it to a friend, and he thought
it sucked, and now the friend I gave it to has tried selling it for $10 and NO
ONE WILL BUY IT BECAUSE IT SUCKS SO BAD. 

>demo. The game is pitifully slow on a Pentium 90 at high res with all
>detail on. And what's so special about it? Graphics are nothing exciting,

Well, this may be more of a problem with the video card in said system. I have
yet to see a video card handle 640x480 reasonably fast as 320x200 .. They just
don't update quick enough for fluid playing..

>and everything is still 90 degrees. Oh, but it's SVGA, so I guess that

Yes, these engines are really going downhill as of late... 

>with. Why is this? Origin must think "well gee, it runs on a Pentium 133
>so lets just leave it alone" instead of tweaking it and making sure that
>it runs just as well on the slower systems. I guess Origin is just afraid
>of hard work, they just want the money, that's all. Now I see Origin

I've seen a lot of companies starting to do this, but I think i will still pay
out all my cash to a company like ID because they find a decent target system
(Ie. dx2/66 for Quake) and they work their asses off making it run perfectly
on that system and still have PLAYABILITY. Unlike others who just find it
works on such a system they market it, even though it isn't playable AT ALL on
that system.

<HUGE sig deleted> That was nice and all, but I think you only need what i
kept below. :)

>-- 
> |  SUPPORT THE WAR AGAINST CHRISTIANITY. CHRISTIANITY IS FOR THE WEAK AND   |
> |  WEAK-WILLED. I AM THE TAOG THAT SHALL SEIZE THE THRONE OF IHVH AND       |
>_|_ DEFECATE UPON THE ALTAR OF JESUS CHRIST THE CRUCIFIED WHORE. BEHOLD THE _|_
> |  NEW AEON OF BLASPHEMY! ESIARP EHT TAOG. 666. Fuck You.                   |

>I've seen a lot of companies starting to do this, but I think i will still pay
>out all my cash to a company like ID because they find a decent target system
>(Ie. dx2/66 for Quake) and they work their asses off making it run perfectly
>on that system and still have PLAYABILITY. Unlike others who just find it
>works on such a system they market it, even though it isn't playable AT ALL on
>that system.

I wouldn't hold your breath on this.  iD has hinted that it would be "a good
idea" to have a P-90.  Of course, the also stated that due to BSP improvements,
the frame rate may be comperable to DOOMs.  So I guess we'll see...


-- (Course, I really don't care, since I *DO* have a P90, I'm just hoping to
get a network card so I can try Voice-over-a-LAN talkiing system.)
+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+
|  Jared Roberts                      |  Ultima Dragons: Internet Chapter     |
|  mailto:Ja...@cyberspace.com        |  Timeless Dragon     -==(UDIC)==-     |
|  Jaro...@sparky.lkwash.wednet.edu  +=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+
|  Or...@media.mediawhse.com          |  Orion@IRC                            |
+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+

djam...@students.wisc.edu (Shadow Weaver) wrote:

djam...@students.wisc.edu (Shadow Weaver) wrote:

>got...@regiss.optera.com (ABHOTH DAIMONIZOMAI) wrote:

>>Is it just me, or are Origin programmers just really lazy and stupid? The

>I don't think its the programmers, I think its the people that market their
>stuff, and tell them what to write.

I have to agree there, I get uncomfortable when I here WC3 being
called an "Interactive Movie" in the ads.

>>reason I say this is because they hype their games as being
>>oh-so-high-tech and state-of-the-art-push-the-envelope stuff, but yet
>>their games really aren't all that much more spectacular than some of the
>>stuff already out. The only difference, of course, is that Origin's games

>Well, as I said before, companies HAVE to push stuff like this in peoples
>faces nowadays to get people to buy things (Well, other than ID..).

>>though they are EXTREMELY over-rated. Case in point, Cybermage. Huge 9 meg

Cybermage was just an early demo, none of us have seen the finished
product.

>I would have to go for WC3 being extremely over-rated. It was so hyped in
>every magazine, yet a friend of mine bought the game, thought it sucked, gave
>it to me, and I thought it sucked, and i gave it to a friend, and he thought
>it sucked, and now the friend I gave it to has tried selling it for $10 and NO
>ONE WILL BUY IT BECAUSE IT SUCKS SO BAD. 

I disagree with you there.  I have a 486dx266 with a shitty video card
and I love WC3.  So what if I can't play the action parts in SVGA?
That's why Origin gave us a VGA mode.  For the most part it runs
pretty smooth on my system, and it's arguably the best space fighting
game out there(with TIE Fighter the only other contender)

>>demo. The game is pitifully slow on a Pentium 90 at high res with all
>>detail on. And what's so special about it? Graphics are nothing exciting,
>>and everything is still 90 degrees. Oh, but it's SVGA, so I guess that
>>with. Why is this? Origin must think "well gee, it runs on a Pentium 133
>>so lets just leave it alone" instead of tweaking it and making sure that
>>it runs just as well on the slower systems. I guess Origin is just afraid
>>of hard work, they just want the money, that's all. Now I see Origin

Like I said before, run it in a graphics mode suitable for your
system, the VGA graphics aren't that bad..


David Paul

ABHOTH DAIMONIZOMAI (got...@regiss.optera.com) wrote:
: Is it just me, or are Origin programmers just really lazy and stupid? The
: reason I say this is because they hype their games as being
: oh-so-high-tech and state-of-the-art-push-the-envelope stuff, but yet
: their games really aren't all that much more spectacular than some of the
: stuff already out. The only difference, of course, is that Origin's games
: are generally slow and require the current top-of-the-line PC to run at a

    Various bitchings deleted...

: -Aaron



The answer seems simple my friend.  If you don't like their games you don't buy
them.  If enough people do this they will change the way they design games or
they will go out of business.  As for me, I really enjoy most Origin games,
WCIII and bioforge for example.  I will agree with you that CyberMage was
somewhat of a letdown.  BTW, I have to keep my PC in what Origin considers
the "high end" range for development reasons, but I can see how this would be
frustrating to most game players.  Just my $.02.

                                                      James

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|"Summa Cum Laude, Magna Cum Laude, The radio's too loudy!" --Johnny Dangerously
| ja...@chama.eece.unm.edu
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|"Copying information from one person is cheating.  Blatantly stealing
|information from MANY people is research!"   -- Greg Peake
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In article <43fd37$6...@regiss.optera.com>,
ABHOTH DAIMONIZOMAI <got...@regiss.optera.com> wrote:
>Is it just me, or are Origin programmers just really lazy and stupid? The
>reason I say this is because they hype their games as being
>oh-so-high-tech and state-of-the-art-push-the-envelope stuff, but yet
>their games really aren't all that much more spectacular than some of the
>stuff already out. The only difference, of course, is that Origin's games
>are generally slow and require the current top-of-the-line PC to run at a
>reasonable speed. Origin likes to put big hefty system requirements on
>their so-called state-of-the-art games, and I guess that makes them feel
>special or something... that you need a Pentium to run their games, even
>though they are EXTREMELY over-rated. Case in point, Cybermage. Huge 9 meg
>demo. The game is pitifully slow on a Pentium 90 at high res with all
>detail on. And what's so special about it? Graphics are nothing exciting,
>and everything is still 90 degrees. Oh, but it's SVGA, so I guess that
>makes it cool. So it requires a Pentium with 16 megs for SVGA. What a
>joke! I can run Terminal Velocity on the same system (which IMO is more
>fun with better grafx) and it's a lot faster, this is with only 8 megs of
>RAM too. Why is Cybermage so slow? Hmm... maybe that the programmers
>suck?? They are too damn lazy to write some clean and efficient code that
>will give us nice pretty grafx AND good frame rates? This isn't something
>new with Origin BTW. Do we remember Strike Commander and Pacific Strike? 
>I do! They were terrible, and SLOW, and not very impressive at all. This
>seems to be a continuing trend with Origin. Write games that require the
>most expensive PC on the market, thereby undercutting a huge mid-range to
>low-end market, and the damn games SUCK and aren't that great to begin
>with. Why is this? Origin must think "well gee, it runs on a Pentium 133
>so lets just leave it alone" instead of tweaking it and making sure that
>it runs just as well on the slower systems. I guess Origin is just afraid
>of hard work, they just want the money, that's all. Now I see Origin
>hyping this new "AH64D Apache Longbow" sim. Supposedly, as rumor has it,
>this will require a Pentium 133 (or P6) for full detail. Wow, that's neat.
>I've seen GIFs. It doesn't look that damn great. I've seen Origin people
>poking fun at I-Magic's "Apache" sim for being unrealistic and outdated.
>HA! I have the sim and it's excellent. Best game I have played in a LONG
>time. Gee Origin, maybe before you start talking sh*t about someone elses
>product, you should MAKE SURE YOUR PRODUCT HAS BEEN RELEASED FIRST. Until
>then, shut up. And what was the last really good game Origin has released
>in the past 2-3 years? WC3? Lets compare the duds Origin has released to
>the good games they have released:  Good games: WC3, Ultima 7 part 2
>Crappy games: Strike Commander, Pacific Strike, Wings of Glory, Ultima 8,
>BioForge, Cybermage, System Shock (some might argue with me about this,
>but hey, the game was boring, slow, and the plot sucked)... etc etc
>That's not a very good record. Looks like Origin is batting around .111 
>which, even if you hate baseball, is a really bad average. Good luck in 
>the future, Origin. I think you'll need it... but probably not, since 
>you've got a whole legion of slobbering Origin groupies who will buy any 
>piece of trash that you release just because it has your logo on it.
>
>
>-Aaron
>
>
>--
> Farewell happy Fields              XXXXX           Where Joy for ever dwells:
> Hail Horrours,                     XXXXX           hail Infernal world,
> and thou profoundest Hell          XXXXX           Receive thy new Possessor:
> One who brings                     XXXXX           A mind not to be chang'd
> by Place or Time.                  XXXXX           The mind is its own place
> and in it self                     XXXXX           Can make a Heav'n of Hell,
> a Hell of Heav'n.                  XXXXX           ...
>                                    XXXXX
>                                    XXXXX
> Here at least                      XXXXX           We shall be free;
> th' Almighty hath not built        XXXXX           Here for his envy,
> will not drive us hence:           XXXXX           Here we may reign secure,
> and in my choyce          XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX  To reign is worth ambition
> though in Hell:           XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX  Better to reign in Hell,
> than serve in Heav'n.     XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
>                                    XXXXX
>                                    XXXXX
>                                    XXXXX
>                                    XXXXX
>
>                     SUPPORT THE WAR AGAINST CHRISTIANITY
>                           FUCK CHRIST, HAIL SATAN
>
>
>
Try this, dont buy or download origin games. >
>-- 
> |  SUPPORT THE WAR AGAINST CHRISTIANITY. CHRISTIANITY IS FOR THE WEAK AND   |
> |  WEAK-WILLED. I AM THE TAOG THAT SHALL SEIZE THE THRONE OF IHVH AND       |
>_|_ DEFECATE UPON THE ALTAR OF JESUS CHRIST THE CRUCIFIED WHORE. BEHOLD THE _|_
> |  NEW AEON OF BLASPHEMY! ESIARP EHT TAOG. 666. Fuck You.                   |

Don't mind Aaron's yelling and screaming too much.  We've seen it for
years now:  whenever any program doesn't live up to every expectation 
on Joe Fanboy's PC, Joe will say...
 
"This is the fault of LAZY PROGRAMMERS."
 
Now, I doubt even Joe Fanboy really thinks anyone at Origin is lazy.  
What's really bugging Joe Fanboy:  he can see how much Origin is capable
of when it comes to graphics, and sound, and video... so why can't they
be as brilliant when it comes to the _game_ itself?
 
It sometimes seems to Joe as if, having produced a dazzling new look and
feel for the latest Origin product, the team stops right there.  "We've
given them great eye-candy", he imagines them saying, "so why bother
putting in gameplay?  Let's ship it like this."  And so he calls them
lazy, for being satisfied with writing _glitter_ when they could be writing
great _games_.
 
Frankly, Joe's largely right.  Origin has neglected gameplay in recent
years.  Privateer, Strike Commander and Wing Commander III were all very
pretty, but did nothing to improve on the simplistic gameplay design
of the original Wing Commanders I and II.  Bioforge was a beautiful
engine with a poorly designed and too-short game (see my review on the 
Games Domain).  Ultima 8 was a big step down from Ultima 7 in 
gameplay - and Ultima 7 was a dull, linear game that itself
paled in design next to Ultima 5.
 
Joe's frustration notwithstanding, we know the Origin folks aren't lazy.  
So why has Origin neglected gameplay?
 
There are two answers.  The first one?  Blame it on us, folks:  we asked
for glitter, and Origin gave it to us.  In spades.  Look back at the game 
magazine letter columns from several years ago, and you'll see lots of 
gamers asking for games that would use the great graphics cards
and the faster CPUs of their new computers.  Season after season, the
games with breakthrough graphics and glitter have been bestsellers.  "People
are buying glitter, so glitter must be what they want," said the Origin folks,
and - always anxious to please - they kept giving it to us.  Just like we
asked.
 
The second reason Origin neglected gameplay:  they didn't realize what
was happening.  When Richard Garriott, Chris Roberts and the rest 
decided to start exploiting all the neat things they could do with a 486, 
a Sound Blaster, a CD-ROM, and so on, they didn't realize the new glitter 
would leave players jaded and wanting more substantial fare.  When they 
scripted Wing Commander III to make sure the player saw all the video, and 
scripted Ultima 8 to show off their new physics, they didn't notice they 
were crimping the underlying game.
 
After that fact - now that we've had years to watch the glitter-trend and
get sick and tired of it - it's easy to see it, easy to hate it.  But when
Ultima 7 came out, almost all of us were having so much fun with the
beauty of that glitter that we didn't notice the streamlined plot.  That  
realization took months or years for most people.  And if it took us that
long, imagine how long it took Richard Garriott, for whom Ultima was his 
beloved child and a company bestseller.
 
Fortunately, we've reached a plateau for appearances, a limit to glitter.
The graphics level of System Shock [SVGA-CD] or Quake is so high, the
production quality of Wing Commander III so slick, the vividness of Ultima
8's little figures so sharp, that there just isn't much "wow" left in
raw graphics.  Moreover, the Windows 95 Direct3D libraries mean that
graphics algorithms are moving from being a game programmer's job to
a hardware programmer's job.  And the sluggish performance of the P6 means
the Pentium is going to last us for a couple of Christmas seasons to come.
Of course, as long as there are new customers in the market - fresh meat
- there'll be ready buyers for glitter.  But standards are now so high
that glitter alone no longer lets a product stand out.
 
All this, plus our well-developed sense of gamer cynicism, means that
graphics just can't be the key sales point anymore.  Aaron observes that
Terminal Velocity, a startup shareware product, doesn't look that bad
next to Cybermage: that's the proof.  Cybermage will succeed - if it does
- because it plays better than the next action game, not because it
looks better.
 
And, too, Origin has awakened and smelled the coffee.  The continuous
emphasis on gameplay in Origin discussion of Ultima 9 should prove that
fact.

--
Daniel Starr        | "She taught him the hidden dharma of playing catch
dst...@math.mit.edu | with a rubber ball, and the veiled mystery of games
                    | of tag."  -  the Mahabharata

-- 
Daniel Starr           |  Curiosity killed the cat, 
starr-...@yale.edu  |  but LOATHSOME RITUALS brought it back!  
                       | --------------------------------------------------    
 Scuppers. Hosepipe.   |  The proper use of skin is as a target zone.

bis...@primenet.com (The Bishop of Battle) wrote:

>   Uhhh...everyone knows that Christians are against technology, and learning,
>and intelligence in general.  If being for higher learning, education, 
>technology, and the freedom of the individual is on the losing side - I think 
>I'll just join up now.




I guess Satan preaches higher learning right?  Well, if you want to 
drink blood of dead animals, then you go and join up.  I'll be
flippin' channels someday and see you on Geraldo.



Tim Lamb
http://www.compusmart.ab.ca/warf/

Tim Lamb <tim...@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca> writes:

>I guess Satan preaches higher learning right?  Well, if you want to 
>drink blood of dead animals, then you go and join up.  I'll be
>flippin' channels someday and see you on Geraldo.

A humble suggestion to all:

Aaron's anti-religion sig is what's commonly referred to as 
"flamebait"... i.e., an insult so flagrant and obvious so as to coax 
others into yelling at him and starting a flame war.  Don't fall for it.

I ask that if you want to bitch him out about his religious, ah,
"statement," feel free, but please do it over e-mail.  Responding here is
just fueling what could turn into a huge off-topic flame war. 

Thanks.


---
                    James Hogan -- jho...@midnight.com.au
                              PC Games Plus, G+
             
My views do not necessarily reflect those of PCGP, G+, or anyone associated
with Midnight Publications.  If anyone tries to tell you otherwise, kill them.

>>I noticed that that your "article" was crossposted into a.g.u.d.  Seems 
>>to me that you had more motive behind this crap than just saying Origin's 
>>games were "slow."
>
>  Of course, he's trying to flood the group with a flame war. He's done this 
>before. The surprising thing this time is that he tried to find a relevant 
>topic to start the flame war about. If he keeps this up, I may have to upgrade 
>my estimate of his intelligence. That would make him actually -more- 
>intelligent than a gerbil.
>

Not necessarily. I left my PC on one time, and when I got home, my hampster 
had just cross posted a "Windows 95 sucks" thread to comp.*!

In article <43g4qe$r...@allnews.infi.net> jva...@nr.infi.net writes:
>In article <43fd37$6...@regiss.optera.com>, got...@regiss.optera.com (ABHOTH DAIMONIZOMAI) says:
>
>
>>-- 
>> |  SUPPORT THE WAR AGAINST CHRISTIANITY. CHRISTIANITY IS FOR THE WEAK AND   |
>> |  WEAK-WILLED. I AM THE TAOG THAT SHALL SEIZE THE THRONE OF IHVH AND       |
>>_|_ DEFECATE UPON THE ALTAR OF JESUS CHRIST THE CRUCIFIED WHORE. BEHOLD THE _|_
>> |  NEW AEON OF BLASPHEMY! ESIARP EHT TAOG. 666. Fuck You.                   |
>
>
>
>You need to get your shit together, bud.  I am not a religious fanatic,
>but it sounds to me like you desperately need attention.  Maybe you 
>should find a hobby other than sacrificing household pets.  Macrame 
>perhaps???


hey mother sodomiser !!!! nowhere is it mentioned that he was sacrificing
household pets (what are they ? define the term please ...) 
And again, what is so wrong about sacrificing lower life forms ?
(Kentucky Fried Chicken and Mc. Donalds do it every day !!!)
Hey !! ever heard of freedom of religion ?? 
Remember ... *YOUR* god is *NOT*  *MY* god .
*MY* God is stronger than your *FAKE GOD* !!!
*MY* God helps me more than *YOURS* (why didnt he help those Infidels in
these recent earthquakes/cyclones that happened in the bastions of the 
Fake god ?)
And again, look at the Serb/Croat conflict. The mighty Christian Serb
Forces are kicking the asses of the Muslim led Croatian dogs.
The Righteous boots of the Serbs shall crush the Evil Croat Invaders.
And this will happen despite the backing of the U.N. .
But again, Our brother in Arm from the former Soviet Union will stand behind
The Serbian forces.
The true GOD is behind us and we shall destroy all who stand in our way !!
We are here to wreck everything, to ruin your life  ... GOD sent us !!


					Walt

Jared Roberts <Ja...@cyberspace.com> wrote:

>>I've seen a lot of companies starting to do this, but I think i will still pay
>>out all my cash to a company like ID because they find a decent target system
>>(Ie. dx2/66 for Quake) and they work their asses off making it run perfectly
>>on that system and still have PLAYABILITY. Unlike others who just find it
>>works on such a system they market it, even though it isn't playable AT ALL on
>>that system.

>I wouldn't hold your breath on this.  iD has hinted that it would be "a good
>idea" to have a P-90.  Of course, the also stated that due to BSP improvements,
>the frame rate may be comperable to DOOMs.  So I guess we'll see...

According to PCGamer, they will be sticking to VGA, but also with two
extended video modes. Both VGA tho.

>-- (Course, I really don't care, since I *DO* have a P90, I'm just hoping to
>get a network card so I can try Voice-over-a-LAN talkiing system.)

Well, they say now that the system of choice will at least be a DX2.
Of course, it's ALWAYS a 'good idea' to have a P90 :)

[clip]
 I will agree with you that CyberMage was
>somewhat of a letdown. 
>
>                                                      James
>
[clip, clip, clip]

Gee, and the game hasn't even bloody come out yet.
;)

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
<.sig>  This is a .sig and is only a .sig.  If it was not a .sig and, say, a .exe, your computer would currently be exploding.
This .sig features no cool ASCII art.
Christopher A. Tew <-<chri...@eden.com>->
All rights reserved for VIP parking.
"1,2,3,4,5,6,7...Oswald was a fag." -The Usual Suspects
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

since they suck that much... stop buying and trying their products.


In article <43fd37$6...@regiss.optera.com>, got...@regiss.optera.com 
says...
>
>Is it just me, or are Origin programmers just really lazy and stupid? 
The
>reason I say this is because they hype their games as being
>oh-so-high-tech and state-of-the-art-push-the-envelope stuff, but yet
>their games really aren't all that much more spectacular than some of 
the
>stuff already out. The only difference, of course, is that Origin's 
games
>are generally slow and require the current top-of-the-line PC to run 
at a
>reasonable speed. Origin likes to put big hefty system requirements on
>their so-called state-of-the-art games, and I guess that makes them 
feel
>special or something... that you need a Pentium to run their games, 
even
>though they are EXTREMELY over-rated. Case in point, Cybermage. Huge 9 
meg
>demo. The game is pitifully slow on a Pentium 90 at high res with all
>detail on. And what's so special about it? Graphics are nothing 
exciting,
>and everything is still 90 degrees. Oh, but it's SVGA, so I guess that
>makes it cool. So it requires a Pentium with 16 megs for SVGA. What a
>joke! I can run Terminal Velocity on the same system (which IMO is 
more
>fun with better grafx) and it's a lot faster, this is with only 8 megs 
of
>RAM too. Why is Cybermage so slow? Hmm... maybe that the programmers
>suck?? They are too damn lazy to write some clean and efficient code 
that
>will give us nice pretty grafx AND good frame rates? This isn't 
something
>new with Origin BTW. Do we remember Strike Commander and Pacific 
Strike? 
>I do! They were terrible, and SLOW, and not very impressive at all. 
This
>seems to be a continuing trend with Origin. Write games that require 
the
>most expensive PC on the market, thereby undercutting a huge mid-range 
to
>low-end market, and the damn games SUCK and aren't that great to begin
>with. Why is this? Origin must think "well gee, it runs on a Pentium 
133
>so lets just leave it alone" instead of tweaking it and making sure 
that
>it runs just as well on the slower systems. I guess Origin is just 
afraid
>of hard work, they just want the money, that's all. Now I see Origin
>hyping this new "AH64D Apache Longbow" sim. Supposedly, as rumor has 
it,
>this will require a Pentium 133 (or P6) for full detail. Wow, that's 
neat.
>I've seen GIFs. It doesn't look that damn great. I've seen Origin 
people
>poking fun at I-Magic's "Apache" sim for being unrealistic and 
outdated.
>HA! I have the sim and it's excellent. Best game I have played in a 
LONG
>time. Gee Origin, maybe before you start talking sh*t about someone 
elses
>product, you should MAKE SURE YOUR PRODUCT HAS BEEN RELEASED FIRST. 
Until
>then, shut up. And what was the last really good game Origin has 
released
>in the past 2-3 years? WC3? Lets compare the duds Origin has released 
to
>the good games they have released:  Good games: WC3, Ultima 7 part 2
>Crappy games: Strike Commander, Pacific Strike, Wings of Glory, Ultima 
8,
>BioForge, Cybermage, System Shock (some might argue with me about 
this,
>but hey, the game was boring, slow, and the plot sucked)... etc etc
>That's not a very good record. Looks like Origin is batting around 
.111 
>which, even if you hate baseball, is a really bad average. Good luck 
in 
>the future, Origin. I think you'll need it... but probably not, since 
>you've got a whole legion of slobbering Origin groupies who will buy 
any 
>piece of trash that you release just because it has your logo on it.
>
>
>-Aaron
>
>
>--
> Farewell happy Fields              XXXXX           Where Joy for ever 
dwells:
> Hail Horrours,                     XXXXX           hail Infernal 
world,
> and thou profoundest Hell          XXXXX           Receive thy new 
Possessor:
> One who brings                     XXXXX           A mind not to be 
chang'd
> by Place or Time.                  XXXXX           The mind is its 
own place
> and in it self                     XXXXX           Can make a Heav'n 
of Hell,
> a Hell of Heav'n.                  XXXXX           ...
>                                    XXXXX
>                                    XXXXX
> Here at least                      XXXXX           We shall be free;
> th' Almighty hath not built        XXXXX           Here for his envy,
> will not drive us hence:           XXXXX           Here we may reign 
secure,
> and in my choyce          XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX  To reign is worth 
ambition
> though in Hell:           XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX  Better to reign in 
Hell,
> than serve in Heav'n.     XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
>                                    XXXXX
>                                    XXXXX
>                                    XXXXX
>                                    XXXXX
>
>                     SUPPORT THE WAR AGAINST CHRISTIANITY
>                           FUCK CHRIST, HAIL SATAN
>
>
>
>
>-- 
> |  SUPPORT THE WAR AGAINST CHRISTIANITY. CHRISTIANITY IS FOR THE WEAK 
AND   |
> |  WEAK-WILLED. I AM THE TAOG THAT SHALL SEIZE THE THRONE OF IHVH AND 
      |
>_|_ DEFECATE UPON THE ALTAR OF JESUS CHRIST THE CRUCIFIED WHORE. 
BEHOLD THE _|_
> |  NEW AEON OF BLASPHEMY! ESIARP EHT TAOG. 666. Fuck You.            
       |

Tim Lamb (tim...@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca) wrote:
: bis...@primenet.com (The Bishop of Battle) wrote:

: >   Uhhh...everyone knows that Christians are against technology, and learning,
: >and intelligence in general.  If being for higher learning, education, 
: >technology, and the freedom of the individual is on the losing side - I think 
: >I'll just join up now.

: I guess Satan preaches higher learning right?  Well, if you want to 

Actually, both Christianity and satanism like to keep their followers
ignorant... makes them more easy to control - generally the whole
idea behind organized religion... but this really isn't the group
to discuss this.. anyone feel like moving it over to alt.satanism 
or alt.religion.christianity?

: drink blood of dead animals, then you go and join up.  I'll be

Oh come now, surely, you've had a nice, juicy steak before }:>

: flippin' channels someday and see you on Geraldo.

Speakin of Satanic...

--

     Ian Westcott      | Fly away to a Rainbow in the sky.
ijwes...@ucdavis.edu | Gold is at the end for ewach of us to find.
     -==(UDIC)==-      | There the road begins where another one will end.
Rakarra@FurryMUCK, IRC | Here the four winds know who will break
 Dragon Code: DC.D f+  | Who will break and who will bend.
 s- h- Cgold>Red a $   | All to be the Master of the Wind.

Chuck ...E's In Love... McMath (McMa...@mediasoft.net) wrote:
: In article <43fd37$6...@regiss.optera.com>, got...@regiss.optera.com
: (ABHOTH DAIMONIZOMAI) wrote:

: > Is it just me, or are Origin programmers just really lazy and stupid?

: Well *here's* a good reasonable argument.  Did you recently graduate from
: charm school?  If you ever hope to be taken seriously, I would suggest you
: don't start out threads like this.  I doubt whether the programmers at
: Origin are either lazy or stupid.  You I don't know about (I doubt you're
: lazy because you did such a good job typing in all this stuff, and
: cross-posted it so well).

Obviously, this guy is an Origin programmer. I think he took offense.  Chill
out dude. Your reply just got crossposted as well.


: > The reason I say this is because they hype their games as being
: > oh-so-high-tech and state-of-the-art-push-the-envelope stuff, but yet
: > their games really aren't all that much more spectacular than some of the
: > stuff already out. 

: Well, now this *is* a valid issue to raise.  Maybe the question should be,
: "are Origin's games worth upgrading your PC for?"

Not really.  THe only Origin game I didn't lose interest in was a few of the
Ultimas and WC Series.  The rest were a waste of time and money.


: > The only difference, of course, is that Origin's games
: > are generally slow and require the current top-of-the-line PC to run at a
: > reasonable speed. Origin likes to put big hefty system requirements on
: > their so-called state-of-the-art games, and I guess that makes them feel
: > special or something... that you need a Pentium to run their games, even
: > though they are EXTREMELY over-rated. Case in point, Cybermage. Huge 9 meg
: > demo. The game is pitifully slow on a Pentium 90 at high res with all
: > detail on. And what's so special about it? Graphics are nothing exciting,
: > and everything is still 90 degrees. Oh, but it's SVGA, so I guess that
: > makes it cool. So it requires a Pentium with 16 megs for SVGA. What a
: > joke! I can run Terminal Velocity on the same system (which IMO is more
: > fun with better grafx) and it's a lot faster, this is with only 8 megs of
: > RAM too. Why is Cybermage so slow? Hmm... maybe that the programmers
: > suck?? 

: In the real world this kind of infantile reasoning would get you
: anywhere.  However, on the 'net it makes you just "one of the boyz."  This
: is just puerile crap.

I agree with this guy in the sense that programmers aren't going to too much
trouble in streamlining their code these days.  It's pitiful when games run
choppy in SVGA mode on a Pentium 90 or 100.  By the way, even though TV is a
smooth running shooter, it's just another boring game...especially the modem
play.  It's another 4 hour gameplay and throwaway.  As far as the "puerile
crap" comment goes, obviously it doesn't stop you from replying to it.  Your
comment only shows how desperate your attempt is at insult.



: > They are too damn lazy to write some clean and efficient code that
: > will give us nice pretty grafx AND good frame rates? This isn't something
: > new with Origin BTW. Do we remember Strike Commander and Pacific Strike? 
: > I do! They were terrible, and SLOW, and not very impressive at all. This
: > seems to be a continuing trend with Origin. Write games that require the
: > most expensive PC on the market, thereby undercutting a huge mid-range to
: > low-end market, and the damn games SUCK and aren't that great to begin
: > with. Why is this? Origin must think "well gee, it runs on a Pentium 133
: > so lets just leave it alone" instead of tweaking it and making sure that
: > it runs just as well on the slower systems. I guess Origin is just afraid
: > of hard work, they just want the money, that's all.

: Yep, that's it - Origin wants the money so bad they release stuff that
: doesn't run on most of the machines out there.  Hey, wait a minute - if
: they *really* wanted the money wouldn't they "tweak" the code so more
: people would buy it?  After all, by aiming at the high-end machine they
: shut out part [most] of their market?

Origin has been doing this since Ultima 6 came out. The people that they aim
for are the ones that own the newest computers and the one's that are in the
market for a new computer.  As for tweaking the code more, I doubt they're
capable.


: > Now I see Origin
: > hyping this new "AH64D Apache Longbow" sim. Supposedly, as rumor has it,
: > this will require a Pentium 133 (or P6) for full detail. Wow, that's neat.
: > I've seen GIFs. It doesn't look that damn great. 

: If you can infer how good a game is from rumors and GIFs, then how will
: Battlecruiser 3000AD be?  I'm curious.


All I know is that USNF ran like crap on a DX2/66 except in 320 X 200 mode
(yuck!).  I can imagine what the next in the series will be like.



: > I've seen Origin people
: > poking fun at I-Magic's "Apache" sim for being unrealistic and outdated.
: > HA! I have the sim and it's excellent. Best game I have played in a LONG
: > time. Gee Origin, maybe before you start talking sh*t about someone elses
: > product, you should MAKE SURE YOUR PRODUCT HAS BEEN RELEASED FIRST. 

: So maybe people at Origin have an attitude problem.  Unlike you.

It looks like we ALL have attitude problems. The difference is that some of us
have valid reasons behind it instead of using insults as a meaningless
attempt of a counterpoint.  


: > Until
: > then, shut up. And what was the last really good game Origin has released
: > in the past 2-3 years? WC3? Lets compare the duds Origin has released to
: > the good games they have released:  Good games: WC3, Ultima 7 part 2
: > Crappy games: Strike Commander, Pacific Strike, Wings of Glory, Ultima 8,
: > BioForge, Cybermage, System Shock (some might argue with me about this,
: > but hey, the game was boring, slow, and the plot sucked)... etc etc
: > That's not a very good record. Looks like Origin is batting around .111 
: > which, even if you hate baseball, is a really bad average. Good luck in 
: > the future, Origin. I think you'll need it... but probably not, since 
: > you've got a whole legion of slobbering Origin groupies who will buy any 
: > piece of trash that you release just because it has your logo on it.
: > 

A LOT of companies are batting .111 and some lower (Sierra). Look at all these
games that have been pushed back in their release dates: DM2, Lords Of
Midnight, Phantasmagoria, Bioforge, etc etc.  They all turned out to be crap
for one reason or another.  It's a waste of the companies' time and our time.
I won't say our money because I've taken all these games back & got a refund. 
The problem is that this seems to be the standard these days. Nothing is worth
keeping.  Consumers should be upset.



: Well, what makes a 'good game' by your definition?  Some of the 'duds' you
: mention tried to go in new directions - BioForge, for one.  Is the fact
: that it didn't do a good job (IMHO) a strike against them?  Even U8 was an
: attempt to do something different, with all the animation and emphasis on
: action vs rpg elements.  I didn't have any problems with it technically,
: although I believe most, if not all, slobbering Avatar groupies hated it.

Obviously, they need to stop doing something different.  They're not good
at it.


: And to put System Shock on the 'losers' list is truly dumb.  Technically
: it's a great game.  And I liked the plot and pace just fine, thanks.

: I'm not an Origin apologist nor a slobbering groupie, but someone who buys
: and plays their games now and then.  And some of the arguments you put
: forth have validity (like "what technical features does Origin put in
: games that forces them to the high-end machines?"). Maybe it's Origin's
: marketing department's idea of 'snob appeal?"   But to say that their
: programmers are stupid, fat, lazy, etc, does nothing but pour flames on
: the fire.

Or sense in their heads.


: If more people feel like you, that Origin's games are NOT worth it, then
: feel free to exercise your right to not purchase their games.  Given
: enough time they will either change their direction or go out of
: business.  That's how it works.  That's how it oughta work.

Is this your solution? Don't purchase their games?  Sounds simple.  Actually,
purchasing the game to check it out & then taking it back for a refund is the
same as not purchasing it.  The only difference is that we have more
information about how good or bad it really is.At least when people post that
a game is crap, they've had first hand experience.  It's the people who keep
the crap that's causing them to make more.



: chuck

Thanks Chuck, but don't take all these postings so personal, unless you are
somewhat associated with Origin then maybe you can help do something to
alleviate the problem.  

>: > the good games they have released:  Good games: WC3, Ultima 7 part 2
>: > Crappy games: Strike Commander, Pacific Strike, Wings of Glory, Ultima 8,
                                                     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Hey! I liked Wings of Glory!
Not that it is necessarily to everyone's taste, but I would hardly
classify it as a "crappy game" in any event. It is reletively bug-free,
and while it may not be the spectacle that WC3 is or as realistic as
Red Baron, it is a lot of fun to play. The graphics are snappy, and the
panning cockpit view is one of the nicest touches I have seen in a
WWI sim.
As to the rest of Origin's games... they do release a dud or two, but
nearly every game company seems to be falling prey to that demon these
days (notable exceptions- Bullfrog, Br0derbund, Microprose (usually)).
On the other hand, the good games that Origin releases are *amazingly*
good. There are many game companies which suck, but IMHO Origin does not
number among them...
 
Regards,
 
Benjamin E. Sones
krf9...@uconnvm.uconn.edu
 

Origin seems to have just pushed the envelope with their game requirements. 
And if you don't have the stuff to play them, you're screwed. 'Course if you 
do, you're in for a GOOD game. The last game I bought from them that ran ok 
was Ultima 7/7.5 and it RULED!!! I got Wing Armada and thought they'd come 
out with enough add-ons to the war between Earth and Kilrah. Although it 
looked REALLY cool at some points (like when the cloaking ship becomes made 
up of boxy polygons, glows, then there's just the wireframe, and then that 
glows and vanished. It looked awesome). Ultima 8 sucked but since Origin 
doesn't come oput with that many games that are overwhelmingly hated tha can 
be let go. Everyone makes mistakes, especially when trying to come out with 
something new and inventive in a game series that basically has the same 
principles all thought them (U1-U8). I bought System Shock, maybe their first 
game to ask for the most from your machine. It ran like crap. It pulled the 
sorriest frame rate out of my computer I've ever seen. It was my first look 
at what a pentium is for. Yet I struggled thourgh half of this tortourous 
game JUST because the gameplay and game engine were SO awesome and the plot 
(while a little cheesey) involved me. Made me feel like a lonewolf trying to 
save the others who are also trapped in this big base. A real DIE HARD-ish 
feel without the midnless violence. After that I gave up ever buying an 
origin game again until I get my machine up to a Pentium, which will be 
awhile. But if I DO upgrade my computer, the first game I'mgoing to install 
will be system shock. And the first game I buy of there's will be Wing 
Commander 3. If anyone wants to write to me and tell me WHY exactly Origin 
sucks. I'd be glad to hear it, because out of the rest of the computer game 
designers Origin at least cleans out alot of their bugs, add GREAT cut-scenes 
 with well-known actors and keep the basic gameplay there. Using this trick 
as more of something to compliment gameplaying, instead of making it feel 
like you're solving some mission or puzzle JUST to see the nifty sfx and 
pictures on your computer screen. Just wanted to give my .002 on a post 
saying that one of my favorite game companies "sucks"


-Ben

be...@accessnv.com (BenV) writes:

>Origin seems to have just pushed the envelope with their game requirements. 

So what's new?  Origin should probably change their name to "High End System
Recommended/Required". :)

>And if you don't have the stuff to play them, you're screwed. 'Course if you 

Of course the same can be said for most games.  If you're trying to play a
386+ game on an 8088 ...

>do, you're in for a GOOD game. The last game I bought from them that ran ok 
>was Ultima 7/7.5 and it RULED!!!

What type of system do you have?  If it's a 486 or higher, I'd expect that
these games ran "perfectly", not just "ok".

>I got Wing Armada and thought they'd come 
>out with enough add-ons to the war between Earth and Kilrah. Although it 
>looked REALLY cool at some points (like when the cloaking ship becomes made 
>up of boxy polygons, glows, then there's just the wireframe, and then that 
>glows and vanished. It looked awesome). 

No comment on Armada.

>Ultima 8 sucked but since Origin 
>doesn't come oput with that many games that are overwhelmingly hated tha can 
>be let go. Everyone makes mistakes, especially when trying to come out with 

I only disliked Ultima 8 for the lack of a conventional realspace map (in other
words, it's nearly impossible to model a pie shaped area well by using squares,
and I don't see that Origin's cloth map fit the real world map well, although
it might have) and the Nintendo-izing of the puzzles.  While throwing a ball
at something or other might be cute in Ultima Underworld, where you have full
3D control over your position and whatnot, it's darn hard in Ultima 8 where you
must try to step on the right square at the right height, etc. etc. etc.  Oh,
the pentagram should have been done a tad better, with candle holders at each
point.  But it was a pretty good game.  Speed could have been better but it
ran ... acceptably.

>principles all thought them (U1-U8). I bought System Shock, maybe their first 
>game to ask for the most from your machine. It ran like crap. It pulled the 
>sorriest frame rate out of my computer I've ever seen. It was my first look 

My 486/33 with ISA 1Mb video ran it just fine.  Sometimes it did run
SLOOOOOWWWLY but I simply reset my system and it ran just fine again.  I'm
not sure what was going on, maybe a mouse or sound driver gone flaky.  Really,
System Shock was a joy to experience on my system; I'm surprised it wasn't
on yours.  If you need to, perhaps you can play it in VGA instead of SVGA.
(320x200 instead of 640x400).  I doubt it makes THAT much difference in terms
of graphics - it didn't on WC3 (where I had a choice between SLOOOW SVGA
and acceptable VGA and acceptable VGA won hands down).

I must say that Looking Glass has made me want to buy their NEXT game as well.

>awhile. But if I DO upgrade my computer, the first game I'mgoing to install 
>will be system shock. And the first game I buy of there's will be Wing 
>Commander 3.

Again, I did play WC3 on my system, and it ran, well, acceptably.  Perhaps a
bit faster than WC1 did on a friend's 386SX.  Sure, I used VGA, but all in all
that didn't detract much from the game itself (SVGA cutscenes were nice tho).
However it did make me realize that there's a real difference between a 486 
with 1Mb ISA SVGA and a 586/90 with 2Mb PCI SVGA and 4xCD in terms of the
gaming quality you can have on it.

>If anyone wants to write to me and tell me WHY exactly Origin 
>sucks. I'd be glad to hear it, because out of the rest of the computer game 
>designers Origin at least cleans out alot of their bugs

And doesn't release junk (even Ultima 6 wasn't junk, though it had to be
debugged for 3 months before it was bug-free enough to play a game without
worrying you'd corrupt your save file beyond recognition).

>add GREAT cut-scenes 
>with well-known actors and keep the basic gameplay there. Using this trick 

They don't even need well-known actors.

>as more of something to compliment gameplaying, instead of making it feel 
>like you're solving some mission or puzzle JUST to see the nifty sfx and 
>pictures on your computer screen. Just wanted to give my .002 on a post 
>saying that one of my favorite game companies "sucks"
>-Ben

					Michael Lewchuk
					lew...@cs.UAlberta.CA

Daniel J Starr (dst...@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) wrote:
: It sometimes seems to Joe as if, having produced a dazzling new look and
: feel for the latest Origin product, the team stops right there.  "We've
: given them great eye-candy", he imagines them saying, "so why bother
: putting in gameplay?  Let's ship it like this."  And so he calls them
: lazy, for being satisfied with writing _glitter_ when they could be writing
: great _games_.

Actually, I think gameplay is a problem throughout the industry, not just 
at any one purrticular company.  The sad thing is a lot of companies ARE 
putting in the best gameplay they know how.  In my opinion, there are 
only maybe a few dozen really talented game designers in the whole 
world.  (Admittedly my standards are pretty high.)  Most companies don't 
have one of them, and the rest don't have enough to go around.  Whatcha 
gonna do?  In generations to come there will be more and more people with 
talent in this profession, as it will have been a part of our society for 
longer and had more time to develop.

Glad to hear another person somewhere in this thread mention they liked 
the Commodore version of Ultima V, and actually played it on a 128 and 
got some use out of all the extra features.  :X)

*********************************************************************** 
   Dr. Cat / Dragon's Eye Productions     **  Come play DragonSpires!
********************************************  ftp.eden.com pub/dspire
   Dragonspires is a graphic mud for PCs. **  has everything you need!
***********************************************************************
   ** http://www.realtime.net/~gauntlet/dspire.html for more info **    
***********************************************************************

got...@regiss.optera.com (ABHOTH DAIMONIZOMAI) wrote:


>will give us nice pretty grafx AND good frame rates? This isn't something
>new with Origin BTW. Do we remember Strike Commander and Pacific Strike? 
>I do! They were terrible, and SLOW, and not very impressive at all.

I have the Strike Commander CD-rom version and it played quite nicely on my
soon to be antique 486sx2-50 with 8 megs o' RAM.  I even ran it pretty well
with just 4 megs and a boot disk.  Personally I really *liked* the graphics
ang the storyline.  Plus the arcade setting where you could just blast planes
continuously until you ran out of fuel or were shot down.  Does anyone know of
a flight sim that is much better than SC?  I've been majorly disappointed in
some of the others I've tried.  I want to see real textures... not the same
old poly-sided crap most flight sims have.

>-Aaron

Jason Sims | http://www.neosoft.com/~jjsims/

And we should take this trolling seriously from someone hiding behind a
contrived pseudonym designed also to get a reaction?  Give me a break!

Walter Meyer (wrm...@cip.informatik.uni-erlangen.de) wrote:
: vinc...@news.gate.net (Vincent Felicione) writes:

: <Satanism .sig deleted>

: >	Your signature file is totally inappropriate for %99.9 of the 
: >messages bases.  Actually %100 inappropriate but I won't preach my 
: >religious beliefs to you.  People like you are the ones who will bring 
: >censorship to the net.  Please grow up and gain some respect for others 
: >and their religious beliefs.

: How about you gaining some respect for his religious believe?   8)

     The problem is not his religious beliefs.  If he wants to believe in 
Satanism, that's his business.  There's two other problems: (1) Some 
people have to pay to download their e-mail.  His .sig is... how many 
lines long?  I lost count!  Standard netiquette recommends that .sigs 
should not be longer than four lines.  It's also really annoying when 
someone posts a five-line message with a 50-line .sig, even if you DON'T 
pay for your access.

     And (2), Walter, you're not from the U.S., so you don't have to 
worry about Senator Exon and his censor-the-Internet party.  We do.  
This kind of .sig is EXACTLY the kind of thing that would put Exon 
on the warpath (again).  I, for one, do not want to see the Internet 
censored.  Preventing pornography is fine by me, but some of the things 
Senator Exon wants... like making the Internet providers responsible for 
pornography even if they didn't know it was on their site... is just 
ridiculous.

     Oh, and (3), I've seen this guy before.  I warned him once before, a
long time ago, by e-mail about the length and content of his .sig file. 
He told me, in no uncertain terms, to "fuck off".  Just ignore him or
start forwarding his posts to his sysadmin.  Sooner or later, he'll
realize that we're ignoring him and go away, or his sysadmin will tell
him to "shape up or ship out" (I hope). 

     I'm surprised that this time he actually tried to find a relevant
issue to bitch about.  I've had to re-assess his intelligence; he may even
be smarter than my dog (my dog qualifies as the "dumbest dog in the
world", IMHO).  I disagree with some of his opinions; for example, System
Shock is one of the best games Origin has distributed in recent years,
IMHO.  Bioforge may have been too short, but at least it was trying to 
go in a new direction.  And so forth. 

     Note to whomever: System Shock was not PROGRAMMED by Origin.  It was
programmed by Looking Glass and DISTRIBUTED by Origin.  It's obvious that
you didn't do your research. 

--
Marcus Spears                        Phone: (903) 886-5249
Data Processing Services               Fax: (903) 886-5415
East Texas State University         E-Mail: MSP...@ETSUADMN.ETSU.EDU
Commerce, Texas  75429                  or: MSP...@ORION.ETSU.EDU

In article <43mm05$e...@hermes.oc.com> msp...@orion.etsu.edu (Marcus Spears) writes:

>     And (2), Walter, you're not from the U.S., so you don't have to 
>worry about Senator Exon and his censor-the-Internet party.  We do.  
>This kind of .sig is EXACTLY the kind of thing that would put Exon 
>on the warpath (again).  I, for one, do not want to see the Internet 
>censored.  Preventing pornography is fine by me, but some of the things 
>Senator Exon wants... like making the Internet providers responsible for 
>pornography even if they didn't know it was on their site... is just 
>ridiculous.

And for anyone who things it doesn't matter because they're not in the US, I'd 
just like to point out that both the routing arbiter and the internic are US 
based. Without their cooperation you're not on the internet. So it definately 
matters.


--
William D. Herrin                  her...@why.com her...@ultima.cms.udel.edu 
6857 Lafayette Park Dr.         her...@cc.gatech.edu her...@onrhq.onr.navy.mil
Annandale, VA 22003               Fallibl...@ultima.why.com -==(UDIC)==-
Web: <http://www.why.com/herrin/>    PGP Public Key Available via web page

west...@cs.ucdavis.edu (Ian James Westcott) wrote:

>: We are here to wreck everything, to ruin your life  ... GOD sent us !!

>Whoa, keep away from me, freak!

Oh relax... he's just quoting "Romper Stomper".

(Hmmm, that's a phrase you don't often hear...)


-><- Matt Alexander			

"Well, art is art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water!
And East is East and West is West and if you take cranberries and stew
them like applesauce they taste more like prunes than a rhubarb does.
Now, uh.. Now you tell me what you know."                     -Marx

In article <43gdkl$8...@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>, dst...@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Daniel J Starr) writes:
|> Don't mind Aaron's yelling and screaming too much.  We've seen it for
|> years now:  whenever any program doesn't live up to every expectation 
|> on Joe Fanboy's PC, Joe will say...
|>  
|> "This is the fault of LAZY PROGRAMMERS."
|>  
|> Now, I doubt even Joe Fanboy really thinks anyone at Origin is lazy.  
|> What's really bugging Joe Fanboy:  he can see how much Origin is capable
|> of when it comes to graphics, and sound, and video... so why can't they
|> be as brilliant when it comes to the _game_ itself?

Well, there's a very good reason why programmers can't be brilliant when it 
comes to gameplay.  And that's this:

THE PROGRAMMERS DON'T DESIGN THE GAME.

This work is done by team leaders, marketers, play-test folks, management, 
even old RG himself.  But the programmers, the ones who try to implement 
slick code, or better yet, well-thought-out code (since "slick" code almost
always becomes more of a pain than it's worth), are NOT involved in the major
design decisions.  So every time I see some dweebie posting about how "blah 
blah, these coders are lazy, blah blah, need more efficient code", it makes 
a statement to me that this person knows NOTHING about how game development
is done.  Or any kind of software development for that matter.  'Nuf said.

Underworld Dragon
  --=(UDIC)=--

wrm...@cip.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Walter Meyer) wrote:

>vinc...@news.gate.net (Vincent Felicione) writes:

><Satanism .sig deleted>

>>	Your signature file is totally inappropriate for %99.9 of the 
>>messages bases.  Actually %100 inappropriate but I won't preach my 
>>religious beliefs to you.  People like you are the ones who will bring 
>>censorship to the net.  Please grow up and gain some respect for others 
>>and their religious beliefs.


>>					vinc...@gate.net

>How about you gaining some respect for his religious believe?   8)

>			Walter

	I do respect his religious beliefs but he obviously doesn't
respect others.  There's nothing wrong with believing in something
but there is a problem when someone talks down to other's beliefs in a
disrespectful/obscene way.  His sig. file falls into that category.  I
will post no more responses to this since it is out of place for this
group.


			vince@net.gate

>the future, Origin. I think you'll need it... but probably not, since 
>you've got a whole legion of slobbering Origin groupies who will buy any 
>piece of trash that you release just because it has your logo on it.
>-Aaron


Take a pill, dude.

In article <43pjc6$6...@cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu>,
Robert Shannon Gregg <rgr...@GS201.SP.CS.CMU.EDU> wrote:
>In article <43gdkl$8...@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>, 
>dst...@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Daniel J Starr) writes:
>|> Don't mind Aaron's yelling and screaming too much.  We've seen it for
>|> years now:  whenever any program doesn't live up to every expectation 
>|> on Joe Fanboy's PC, Joe will say...
>|>  
>|> "This is the fault of LAZY PROGRAMMERS."
>|>  
>|> Now, I doubt even Joe Fanboy really thinks anyone at Origin is lazy.  
>|> What's really bugging Joe Fanboy:  he can see how much Origin is capable
>|> of when it comes to graphics, and sound, and video... so why can't they
>|> be as brilliant when it comes to the _game_ itself?
>
>Well, there's a very good reason why programmers can't be brilliant when it 
>comes to gameplay.  And that's this:
>
>THE PROGRAMMERS DON'T DESIGN THE GAME.

This is of course true.  And it's true that Joe Fanboy doesn't know diddly-
squat about game design.  But the reason Joe talks about "LAZY PROGRAMMERS"
is that there is a real problem, even if Joe thinks it's the programmers'
fault somehow.  That real problem is that the gameplay is often nowhere
near as good as the graphics.  As Dr. Cat pointed out, we have a real
shortage of good game designers in this business.  Everyone can spot
the problems in the finished product, but almost no one can come up with
good ideas during the design phase.  Ask for suggestions from a random
group of Ultima fans and you get... lots of little things.  Some big things,
but mostly little things.  

But Origin's unique problem is that while they have (few? no?) great
game designers, they have a set of really great storytellers,
so they substitute good stories for good gameplay, and don't see what's
missing.  Many of Origin's recent "could-have-been-great" disappointments
are of this kind.  E.g. Wing Commander III, Bioforge, Serpent Isle.  Of
course, all three of these were bestsellers, I think, so I guess customers
aren't as discriminating as they might like to think...
-- 
Daniel Starr         | "She taught him the hidden dharma of playing catch
dst...@math.mit.edu  | with a rubber ball and the veiled mystery of games
                     | of tag."  - Mahabharata (Rishyasringa)

got...@regiss.optera.com (ABHOTH DAIMONIZOMAI) wrote:

>Is it just me, or are Origin programmers just really lazy and stupid? The
>reason I say this is because they hype their games as being
>oh-so-high-tech and state-of-the-art-push-the-envelope stuff, but yet
>their games really aren't all that much more spectacular than some of the
>stuff already out. The only difference, of course, is that Origin's games
>are generally slow and require the current top-of-the-line PC to run at a
>reasonable speed. Origin likes to put big hefty system requirements on
>their so-called state-of-the-art games, and I guess that makes them feel
>special or something... that you need a Pentium to run their games, even
>though they are EXTREMELY over-rated. Case in point, Cybermage. Huge 9 meg
>demo. The game is pitifully slow on a Pentium 90 at high res with all
>detail on. And what's so special about it? Graphics are nothing exciting,
>and everything is still 90 degrees.

As far as I can remember since Ultima 6 and Wing Commander 1 Origin
has always produced games which require state of the art machines. (I
can remeber everybodys complain about WC1 that you need a 386 machine
to play it). And they were always great games. I like even Ultima 8
with the new patch of course which takes a lot of jumping out of the
game.


Werner Punz
we...@inflab.uni-linz.ac.at
  

Hi

Just would like to add my voice to this discussion;

I'm no programmer, but as a die-hard gamer into all kinds of different 
games I can definitely say that Origin games >>run<< or 'play' slower 
than others. If this means unstreamlined code, or shitty programming, 
or whatever, then so be it. I'm not saying what it is, I don't know 
what it is, thats 4 you techies to decide.

As a simple example, take the Cybermage demo and the Need 4 Speed demo.
Both SVGA, both texture mapped to high heaven. If anything, need 4 speed 
with max detail is MUCH more of a CPU hog then Cybermage, it has a 
driving model, 16bit sound, a HELLUVA lot more screen updating to do etc. 
etc. etc.


Cybermage aint nothing special to me, just SVGA, still tat isometric 
flipbook stuff. A kinda SVGA bioforge

Guess which one flies? NEED 4 speed with max detail 640x480 SVGA is 
SOOOOOOOOO fast on my Pentium-100 w/16MBs of RAM (I'd say in this mode I 
get about 18fps at least) the screen almost explodes - this's with a SLOW 
DOS card (ATI GPT). There's probably one helluva graphics engine behind 
that game.


Cybermage - kinda sluggish, not slow, but not fast either.
Now if this isn't 'bad programming' what is it?


Remember this all is from a layman's point of view so no flames please.



M



 
Jay B Biggerstaff (JBB...@utarlg.uta.edu) 
wrote: : Chuck ...E's In Love... McMath (McMa...@mediasoft.net) wrote:
: : In article <43fd37$6...@regiss.optera.com>, got...@regiss.optera.com
: : (ABHOTH DAIMONIZOMAI) wrote:

: : > Is it just me, or are Origin programmers just really lazy and stupid?

: : Well *here's* a good reasonable argument.  Did you recently graduate from
: : charm school?  If you ever hope to be taken seriously, I would suggest you
: : don't start out threads like this.  I doubt whether the programmers at
: : Origin are either lazy or stupid.  You I don't know about (I doubt you're
: : lazy because you did such a good job typing in all this stuff, and
: : cross-posted it so well).

: Obviously, this guy is an Origin programmer. I think he took offense.  Chill
: out dude. Your reply just got crossposted as well.


: : > The reason I say this is because they hype their games as being
: : > oh-so-high-tech and state-of-the-art-push-the-envelope stuff, but yet
: : > their games really aren't all that much more spectacular than some of the
: : > stuff already out. 

: : Well, now this *is* a valid issue to raise.  Maybe the question should be,
: : "are Origin's games worth upgrading your PC for?"

: Not really.  THe only Origin game I didn't lose interest in was a few of the
: Ultimas and WC Series.  The rest were a waste of time and money.


: : > The only difference, of course, is that Origin's games
: : > are generally slow and require the current top-of-the-line PC to run at a
: : > reasonable speed. Origin likes to put big hefty system requirements on
: : > their so-called state-of-the-art games, and I guess that makes them feel
: : > special or something... that you need a Pentium to run their games, even
: : > though they are EXTREMELY over-rated. Case in point, Cybermage. Huge 9 meg
: : > demo. The game is pitifully slow on a Pentium 90 at high res with all
: : > detail on. And what's so special about it? Graphics are nothing exciting,
: : > and everything is still 90 degrees. Oh, but it's SVGA, so I guess that
: : > makes it cool. So it requires a Pentium with 16 megs for SVGA. What a
: : > joke! I can run Terminal Velocity on the same system (which IMO is more
: : > fun with better grafx) and it's a lot faster, this is with only 8 megs of
: : > RAM too. Why is Cybermage so slow? Hmm... maybe that the programmers
: : > suck?? 

: : In the real world this kind of infantile reasoning would get you
: : anywhere.  However, on the 'net it makes you just "one of the boyz."  This
: : is just puerile crap.

: I agree with this guy in the sense that programmers aren't going to too much
: trouble in streamlining their code these days.  It's pitiful when games run
: choppy in SVGA mode on a Pentium 90 or 100.  By the way, even though TV is a
: smooth running shooter, it's just another boring game...especially the modem
: play.  It's another 4 hour gameplay and throwaway.  As far as the "puerile
: crap" comment goes, obviously it doesn't stop you from replying to it.  Your
: comment only shows how desperate your attempt is at insult.



: : > They are too damn lazy to write some clean and efficient code that
: : > will give us nice pretty grafx AND good frame rates? This isn't something
: : > new with Origin BTW. Do we remember Strike Commander and Pacific Strike? 
: : > I do! They were terrible, and SLOW, and not very impressive at all. This
: : > seems to be a continuing trend with Origin. Write games that require the
: : > most expensive PC on the market, thereby undercutting a huge mid-range to
: : > low-end market, and the damn games SUCK and aren't that great to begin
: : > with. Why is this? Origin must think "well gee, it runs on a Pentium 133
: : > so lets just leave it alone" instead of tweaking it and making sure that
: : > it runs just as well on the slower systems. I guess Origin is just afraid
: : > of hard work, they just want the money, that's all.

: : Yep, that's it - Origin wants the money so bad they release stuff that
: : doesn't run on most of the machines out there.  Hey, wait a minute - if
: : they *really* wanted the money wouldn't they "tweak" the code so more
: : people would buy it?  After all, by aiming at the high-end machine they
: : shut out part [most] of their market?

: Origin has been doing this since Ultima 6 came out. The people that they aim
: for are the ones that own the newest computers and the one's that are in the
: market for a new computer.  As for tweaking the code more, I doubt they're
: capable.


: : > Now I see Origin
: : > hyping this new "AH64D Apache Longbow" sim. Supposedly, as rumor has it,
: : > this will require a Pentium 133 (or P6) for full detail. Wow, that's neat.
: : > I've seen GIFs. It doesn't look that damn great. 

: : If you can infer how good a game is from rumors and GIFs, then how will
: : Battlecruiser 3000AD be?  I'm curious.


: All I know is that USNF ran like crap on a DX2/66 except in 320 X 200 mode
: (yuck!).  I can imagine what the next in the series will be like.



: : > I've seen Origin people
: : > poking fun at I-Magic's "Apache" sim for being unrealistic and outdated.
: : > HA! I have the sim and it's excellent. Best game I have played in a LONG
: : > time. Gee Origin, maybe before you start talking sh*t about someone elses
: : > product, you should MAKE SURE YOUR PRODUCT HAS BEEN RELEASED FIRST. 

: : So maybe people at Origin have an attitude problem.  Unlike you.

: It looks like we ALL have attitude problems. The difference is that some of us
: have valid reasons behind it instead of using insults as a meaningless
: attempt of a counterpoint.  


: : > Until
: : > then, shut up. And what was the last really good game Origin has released
: : > in the past 2-3 years? WC3? Lets compare the duds Origin has released to
: : > the good games they have released:  Good games: WC3, Ultima 7 part 2
: : > Crappy games: Strike Commander, Pacific Strike, Wings of Glory, Ultima 8,
: : > BioForge, Cybermage, System Shock (some might argue with me about this,
: : > but hey, the game was boring, slow, and the plot sucked)... etc etc
: : > That's not a very good record. Looks like Origin is batting around .111 
: : > which, even if you hate baseball, is a really bad average. Good luck in 
: : > the future, Origin. I think you'll need it... but probably not, since 
: : > you've got a whole legion of slobbering Origin groupies who will buy any 
: : > piece of trash that you release just because it has your logo on it.
: : > 

: A LOT of companies are batting .111 and some lower (Sierra). Look at all these
: games that have been pushed back in their release dates: DM2, Lords Of
: Midnight, Phantasmagoria, Bioforge, etc etc.  They all turned out to be crap
: for one reason or another.  It's a waste of the companies' time and our time.
: I won't say our money because I've taken all these games back & got a refund. 
: The problem is that this seems to be the standard these days. Nothing is worth
: keeping.  Consumers should be upset.



: : Well, what makes a 'good game' by your definition?  Some of the 'duds' you
: : mention tried to go in new directions - BioForge, for one.  Is the fact
: : that it didn't do a good job (IMHO) a strike against them?  Even U8 was an
: : attempt to do something different, with all the animation and emphasis on
: : action vs rpg elements.  I didn't have any problems with it technically,
: : although I believe most, if not all, slobbering Avatar groupies hated it.

: Obviously, they need to stop doing something different.  They're not good
: at it.


: : And to put System Shock on the 'losers' list is truly dumb.  Technically
: : it's a great game.  And I liked the plot and pace just fine, thanks.

: : I'm not an Origin apologist nor a slobbering groupie, but someone who buys
: : and plays their games now and then.  And some of the arguments you put
: : forth have validity (like "what technical features does Origin put in
: : games that forces them to the high-end machines?"). Maybe it's Origin's
: : marketing department's idea of 'snob appeal?"   But to say that their
: : programmers are stupid, fat, lazy, etc, does nothing but pour flames on
: : the fire.

: Or sense in their heads.


: : If more people feel like you, that Origin's games are NOT worth it, then
: : feel free to exercise your right to not purchase their games.  Given
: : enough time they will either change their direction or go out of
: : business.  That's how it works.  That's how it oughta work.

: Is this your solution? Don't purchase their games?  Sounds simple.  Actually,
: purchasing the game to check it out & then taking it back for a refund is the
: same as not purchasing it.  The only difference is that we have more
: information about how good or bad it really is.At least when people post that
: a game is crap, they've had first hand experience.  It's the people who keep
: the crap that's causing them to make more.



: : chuck

: Thanks Chuck, but don't take all these postings so personal, unless you are
: somewhat associated with Origin then maybe you can help do something to
: alleviate the problem.