🚀 go-pugleaf

In article <MPG.10fea95f4...@172.16.1.5>, He...@there.com (Adrian
Thompson) wrote:

> Can anyone out there tell me why Windows uses Ctrl-V as a keyboard 
> shortcut for Paste? I've just been asked by one fo the children here, and 
> I realised I have no idea!

... because they ripped it off from the Macintosh, which reserves the
keys Command-Z, Command-X, Command-C, and Command-V for Undo, Cut, Copy,
and Paste respectively.  Note that these letters occupy the bottom left
corner of the keyboard, and so these command combinations are fairly
easy to type with the left hand while holding the mouse with the right.

Sean Case

-- 
Sean Case                  g...@zipworld.com.au

Code is an illusion.  Only assertions are real.

Sean Case (g...@zip.com.au) wrote:
: In article <MPG.10fea95f4...@172.16.1.5>, He...@there.com (Adrian
: Thompson) wrote:

: > Can anyone out there tell me why Windows uses Ctrl-V as a keyboard 
: > shortcut for Paste? I've just been asked by one fo the children here, and 
: > I realised I have no idea!

: ... because they ripped it off from the Macintosh, which reserves the
: keys Command-Z, Command-X, Command-C, and Command-V for Undo, Cut, Copy,
: and Paste respectively. 

Did they?  Remember that MS Word was originally written for the Macintosh.
MS may have gotten these shortcuts from Macs, but they would already have
been using them anyway for their Mac software.

And anyway, these shortcuts predate the Mac.  IIRC they go back at least
to WordStar, sometime in the late 1970s.

--
Tom Harrington --------- t...@rmii.com -------- http://rainbow.rmii.com/~tph
  "Have you ever had your phones tapped by the government?  YOU WILL and
    the company that'll bring it to you..... AT&T" -evid...@netcom.com
Cookie's Revenge: ftp://ftp.rmi.net/pub2/tph/cookie/cookies-revenge.sit.hqx

Tom Harrington <t...@rmi.net> wrote:

> : ... because they ripped it off from the Macintosh, which reserves the
> : keys Command-Z, Command-X, Command-C, and Command-V for Undo, Cut, Copy,
> : and Paste respectively. 
> 
> And anyway, these shortcuts predate the Mac.  IIRC they go back at least
> to WordStar, sometime in the late 1970s.

I don't remember seeing these on anything earlier than the Apple Lisa,
though it wouldn't surprise me if they were copied from something else.
It's possible they were inspired by the WordStar block commands -- ^KC
to copy a block and ^KV to move one -- but I imagine this is more
coincidence than ancestry, since the other WordStar commands aren't
anything like the standard Mac command key assignments.

eric

tph@longhorn.uucp (Tom Harrington) wrote:

>Sean Case (g...@zip.com.au) wrote:
>: In article <MPG.10fea95f4...@172.16.1.5>, He...@there.com (Adrian
>: Thompson) wrote:
>
>: > Can anyone out there tell me why Windows uses Ctrl-V as a keyboard 
>: > shortcut for Paste? I've just been asked by one fo the children here, and 
>: > I realised I have no idea!
>
>: ... because they ripped it off from the Macintosh, which reserves the
>: keys Command-Z, Command-X, Command-C, and Command-V for Undo, Cut, Copy,
>: and Paste respectively. 
>
>Did they?  Remember that MS Word was originally written for the Macintosh.
>MS may have gotten these shortcuts from Macs, but they would already have
>been using them anyway for their Mac software.
>
>And anyway, these shortcuts predate the Mac.  IIRC they go back at least
>to WordStar, sometime in the late 1970s.

     Nope.  In WordStar, ^Z was scroll up (up I think), ^X was advance
a line, ^C was advance a page, and ^V nothing that I remember.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation:
     I have preferences.
     You have biases.
     He/She has prejudices.

In article <369518ff...@news.vip.net>,
Gene Wirchenko <ge...@vip.net> wrote:

>     Nope.  In WordStar, ^Z was scroll up (up I think), ^X was advance
>a line, ^C was advance a page, and ^V nothing that I remember.

"was"?  You should have written "is", since WordStar 3.3 still runs fine on
my Kaypro.

^V toggles insert/overstrike mode.

-- Derek

Tom Harrington <tph@longhorn.uucp> wrote:
: Did they?  Remember that MS Word was originally written for the Macintosh.
: MS may have gotten these shortcuts from Macs, but they would already have
: been using them anyway for their Mac software.

  I'm pretty sure that Word for DOS predated MacWord. I somewhat remember
it being announced in '82 or '83. Dunno when it finally came out.
  Excel did start out on the Mac. What did Multiplan start out on? The
Apple ][ or CP/M?

-- 
Mike Swaim, Avatar of Chaos: Disclaimer:I sometimes lie.
Home: sw...@c-com.net
Alum: sw...@alumni.rice.edu  Quote: "Boingie"^4 Y,W&D

The most obvious reason is that Ctrl Z, X, C, V are most convenient for some
of the most common operations: Undo, Cut, Copy and Paste.  Simply because
they are close to the control key on most keyboards.

That's also probably why the emacs editor uses Ctrl-X and Ctrl-C for it's
common commands too.  (Ctrl-Z is already taken to mean suspend the program.)

All that is just a guess of course.


Adrian Thompson wrote in message ...
>Hi.
>Can anyone out there tell me why Windows uses Ctrl-V as a keyboard
>shortcut for Paste? I've just been asked by one fo the children here, and
>I realised I have no idea!
>

In article <77222d$fe3$1...@remarQ.com>, Scott <no...@nospam.com> wrote:

>The most obvious reason is that Ctrl Z, X, C, V are most convenient for some
>of the most common operations: Undo, Cut, Copy and Paste.  Simply because
>they are close to the control key on most keyboards.

Right.  And they are the same on the Macintosh -- the standard shortcuts
look like this:

q     w     e     r     t     y     u     i     o     p
quit  close                                     open  print
a     s     d     f     g     h     j     k     l     ;
      save
z     x     c     v     b     n     m     ,     .     /
undo  cut   copy  paste       new               cancel

The command key (which you use to modify a character to become a shortcut)
is to the left of the spacebar.  (Many keyboards have one to the right, but
I've never trained myself to use it.)

The "open" and "save" commands act on files.  The "close" and "print"
commands deal with the current window/document.  The "new" command creates a
new window/document.  The "undo", "cut", "copy", and "paste" commands deal
with the current selection.  And "cancel" chooses the "Cancel" button in a
dialog box.  It also gets rid of the annoying "Please insert the disk: ___"
notices that sometimes pop up.  Most software now accepts Esc as well.

Most programs define other shortcuts.  The conventions have changed over the
years.  When programs can use only one character (instead of two, as in
Windows' case) they tend to be creative or even totally opaque.  But the
system works well enough for common commands that the "core" shortcuts
haven't changed since the late 80's.

Too bad Windows still has a lot of its CUA keys -- Alt-F4 for close is
completely counterintuitive.  Shift-Ins (or whatever) for paste is almost as
bad, and awkward to use.  Luckily, Microsoft knows a good feature when it
sees one. :)

-- Derek


-- Derek

On Thu, 7 Jan 1999 11:22:43 -0000, He...@there.com (Adrian Thompson)
wrote:

>Hi.
>Can anyone out there tell me why Windows uses Ctrl-V as a keyboard 
>shortcut for Paste? I've just been asked by one fo the children here, and 
>I realised I have no idea!
>
Does it???

I always use Ctrl Insert (to cut) and Shift Insert (to paste) !

I think you might find that the key combos for Winxyz change as MS
decide it's time to obsolete old versions of their software.

<Winge>
I still can't work out why you can't highlight a section of something
and just press delete and insert to paste but have to use control key
as well. 
;-)
</Winge>
regards John B.

On Thu, 07 Jan 1999 10:42:23 GMT, John Birch <jo...@invision.co.uk> wrote:
>On Thu, 7 Jan 1999 11:22:43 -0000, He...@there.com (Adrian Thompson)
>wrote:
>
>>Hi.
>>Can anyone out there tell me why Windows uses Ctrl-V as a keyboard 
>>shortcut for Paste? I've just been asked by one fo the children here, and 
>>I realised I have no idea!
>>
>Does it???
>
>I always use Ctrl Insert (to cut) and Shift Insert (to paste) !

shift/delete =cut
ctrl/insert = copy

TheCentralSc...@pobox.com wrote:

> >On Thu, 7 Jan 1999 11:22:43 -0000, He...@there.com (Adrian Thompson)
> >wrote:

> >I always use Ctrl Insert (to cut) and Shift Insert (to paste) !
>
> shift/delete =cut
> ctrl/insert = copy

Criss cross.  You delete my wife, I'll delete yours.

Sorry, just saw that movie.  Actually two movies - "Strangers on a train" and
"Throw mama from the train".

On Thu, 07 Jan 1999 16:47:38 -0500, J. Benz <be...@danet.com> wrote:
>
>
>TheCentralSc...@pobox.com wrote:
>
>> >On Thu, 7 Jan 1999 11:22:43 -0000, He...@there.com (Adrian Thompson)
>> >wrote:
>
>> >I always use Ctrl Insert (to cut) and Shift Insert (to paste) !
>>
>> shift/delete =cut
>> ctrl/insert = copy
>
>Criss cross.  You delete my wife, I'll delete yours.
>
>Sorry, just saw that movie.  Actually two movies - "Strangers on a train" and
>"Throw mama from the train".
>

LOL.

John Birch wrote in message <36948e3e...@news.demon.co.uk>...

><Winge>
>I still can't work out why you can't highlight a section of something
>and just press delete and insert to paste but have to use control key
>as well.


Because frequently I want to copy something, delete something else adn then
paste what I just cut into the space.

It therefore makes sense to seperate the delete and cut functions.

Samael

On Thu, 7 Jan 1999 11:35:22, "Samael" <Sam...@dial.pipex.com> wrote:

> Because frequently I want to copy something, delete something else adn then
> paste what I just cut into the space.
> 
> It therefore makes sense to seperate the delete and cut functions.

The software I use lets you replace something by highlighting it then pasting, 
so the intermediate delete is superfluous.

--  
    John "but that's not Microsoft software" Varela
    (delete . between mind and spring to e-mail me)

John Birch wrote:

> I still can't work out why you can't highlight a section of something
> and just press delete and insert to paste but have to use control key
> as well.
> ;-)

Because those keys have another action associated with them.   Try them in M$
Wierd sometime.  'Insert' toggles between the behavior where new text pushes
old text to its right as new text is entered, and the behavior where new text
overwrites the old text that is there.  'Delete' works similarly to the
backspace, but as, well, errr... forward space - it deletes the character
under the cursor and 'pulls' the rest of the line to the left.

But from the smiley, I'll bet you already knew that?

Gene Wirchenko wrote:

> >And anyway, these shortcuts predate the Mac.  IIRC they go back at least
> >to WordStar, sometime in the late 1970s.
> 
>      Nope.  In WordStar, ^Z was scroll up (up I think), ^X was advance
> a line, ^C was advance a page, and ^V nothing that I remember.

Ah yes, but Wordstar used Ctrl-K B to mark the block start, Ctrl-K K for
block end (getit? :-) Ctrl-K C for copy, X for cut, V for paste. So it
goes back at least that far...

Programs using shift-del and shift-ins postdate the IBM PC, obviously. ISTR
that the Borland editor could be configured into both keymappings, as could
some other editors. In the end, the momentum won.

Wouter

Wouter de Waal  <bofh...@ccii.co.za> wrote:

> Ah yes, but Wordstar used Ctrl-K B to mark the block start, Ctrl-K K for
> block end (getit? :-) Ctrl-K C for copy, X for cut, V for paste. So it
> goes back at least that far...

My WordStar experience is pretty minimal, but the manual I have
says that ^KX is "Save & exit" and ^KV is "Move."  Did different
versions of WordStar give different meanings to these sequences?

eric

Mike Swaim  <sw...@gemini.c-com.net> wrote:

> I'm pretty sure that Word for DOS predated MacWord. I somewhat remember
> it being announced in '82 or '83. Dunno when it finally came out.

My 1993 copy has a big "10 Years of Word" logo on the side, so I guess
it was 1983.  The early MS-DOS versions had a *very* different feel
from the later GUI releases.

> What did Multiplan start out on? The Apple ][ or CP/M?

I hadn't realized there was ever an Apple II version, but the
spreadsheet comparison chart in the June, 1984 Creative Computing shows
versions for Apple, IBM PC, MS-DOS, CP/M, and CP/M-86.  The first time
I ever saw was Multiplan it was running on a TI-99/4A at a meeting of
the TI Hoosier Users' Group.

eric

On Thu, 07 Jan 1999 22:24:23 +1100, g...@zip.com.au (Sean Case) wrote:

 >In article <MPG.10fea95f4...@172.16.1.5>, He...@there.com (Adrian
 >Thompson) wrote:
 >
 >> Can anyone out there tell me why Windows uses Ctrl-V as a keyboard 
 >> shortcut for Paste? I've just been asked by one fo the children here, and 
 >> I realised I have no idea!
 >
 >... because they ripped it off from the Macintosh, which reserves the
 >keys Command-Z, Command-X, Command-C, and Command-V for Undo, Cut, Copy,
 >and Paste respectively.  Note that these letters occupy the bottom left
 >corner of the keyboard, and so these command combinations are fairly
 >easy to type with the left hand while holding the mouse with the right.

Gee, that's an interesting spin.

Did WordStar steal it from the Mac, too? Even though WordStar predated the Mac
by a number of years?

How about copy editing notation? It predates computers. It might even predate
linotypes - I'm not sure. 

V is used for insert, because it's a wedge shape that points to where you are
wedging the new text in.

deke


------------------------
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   If it's not 'just the way you are', it's not love....

On 7 Jan 1999 16:21:58 GMT, TheCentralSc...@pobox.com ()
wrote:

>On Thu, 07 Jan 1999 10:42:23 GMT, John Birch <jo...@invision.co.uk> wrote:
>>On Thu, 7 Jan 1999 11:22:43 -0000, He...@there.com (Adrian Thompson)
>>wrote:
>>
>>>Hi.
>>>Can anyone out there tell me why Windows uses Ctrl-V as a keyboard 
>>>shortcut for Paste? I've just been asked by one fo the children here, and 
>>>I realised I have no idea!
>>>
>>Does it???
>>
>>I always use Ctrl Insert (to cut) and Shift Insert (to paste) !
>
>shift/delete =cut
>ctrl/insert = copy
>
You are of course correct, Ctrl_insert is copy not cut. Oops!

BTW shift delete is a new one to me, I might try reprogramming my wet
ware to include that one ;-)
regards John B.

John Varela wrote in message ...
>On Thu, 7 Jan 1999 11:35:22, "Samael" <Sam...@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
>
>> Because frequently I want to copy something, delete something else adn
then
>> paste what I just cut into the space.
>>
>> It therefore makes sense to seperate the delete and cut functions.
>
>The software I use lets you replace something by highlighting it then
pasting,
>so the intermediate delete is superfluous.


Not if I'm doing some idying up at the same time

Cut this, delete that, add a line in here, now paste.

Admittedly, I could cut and paste and then go in and tidy it up, but I'd
like to have the option.

Samael

In article <36952AD4...@danet.com>, J. Benz <be...@danet.com> wrote:
>overwrites the old text that is there.  'Delete' works similarly to the
>backspace, but as, well, errr... forward space - it deletes the character
>under the cursor and 'pulls' the rest of the line to the left.

I really like this behavior.  I got used to it on the Amiga, where backspace
was backspace and delete was delete.

-s
-- 
Copyright 1998, All rights reserved.  Peter Seebach / se...@plethora.net
C/Unix wizard, Pro-commerce radical, Spam fighter.  Boycott Spamazon!
Send me money - get cool programs and hardware!  No commuting, please.
Visit my new ISP <URL:http://www.plethora.net/> --- More Net, Less Spam!

On Fri, 08 Jan 1999 00:16:07 GMT, se...@plethora.net (Peter Seebach)
wrote:

>In article <36952AD4...@danet.com>, J. Benz <be...@danet.com> wrote:
>>overwrites the old text that is there.  'Delete' works similarly to the
>>backspace, but as, well, errr... forward space - it deletes the character
>>under the cursor and 'pulls' the rest of the line to the left.
>
>I really like this behavior.  I got used to it on the Amiga, where backspace
>was backspace and delete was delete.
>
I personally find it annoying, but that's me. AFAI am concerned, the
keyboard ought to be optimised for those actions most commonly used.
Toggling between insert and overstrike mode does not come high on my
list of priorities! I am happy with the pull left delete tho'. :-)

While we're off topic, any feelings on the way that highlighting stuff
with shift and cursor keys works. I always find that the highlighting
jumps to the wrong point, never seems to end up at the end of the para
or whatever, but always jumps to the start of the next line etc.


regards John B.

In article <3695e03d...@news.demon.co.uk>, John Birch <nospam> wrote:
>On Fri, 08 Jan 1999 00:16:07 GMT, se...@plethora.net (Peter Seebach)
>wrote:
>>In article <36952AD4...@danet.com>, J. Benz <be...@danet.com> wrote:
>>>overwrites the old text that is there.  'Delete' works similarly to the
>>>backspace, but as, well, errr... forward space - it deletes the character
>>>under the cursor and 'pulls' the rest of the line to the left.

>>I really like this behavior.  I got used to it on the Amiga, where backspace
>>was backspace and delete was delete.

>I personally find it annoying, but that's me. AFAI am concerned, the
>keyboard ought to be optimised for those actions most commonly used.
>Toggling between insert and overstrike mode does not come high on my
>list of priorities! I am happy with the pull left delete tho'. :-)

Oh, I wasn't talking about the incomprehensible toggle, just the BS and DEL
behavior.

>While we're off topic, any feelings on the way that highlighting stuff
>with shift and cursor keys works. I always find that the highlighting
>jumps to the wrong point, never seems to end up at the end of the para
>or whatever, but always jumps to the start of the next line etc.

It works mostly correctly on the Mac, completely wrong in Windows, and mostly
wrong in Netscape.

When you have a block selected, cursor-right should put the cursor immediately
after, and cursor-left immediately before, the selected area.  This is "what
you mean".

-s
-- 
Copyright 1998, All rights reserved.  Peter Seebach / se...@plethora.net
C/Unix wizard, Pro-commerce radical, Spam fighter.  Boycott Spamazon!
Send me money - get cool programs and hardware!  No commuting, please.
Visit my new ISP <URL:http://www.plethora.net/> --- More Net, Less Spam!

Interesting that knowledgeable folks can't figure out why some programs
use Ctrl-V for Paste. It's supposed to be "intuitive," dontcha know.

Wherever the assignment of modifier-Z/X/C/V to Undo/Cut/Copy/Paste
originally came from, it was introduced to the computing public through
the first Macs, in 1984. The Mac used Command-X/C/V for Cut/Copy/Paste
(and maybe Command-Z for Undo) from the beginning. "X out" is another
way of saying "cross out," i.e., remove; C is for Copy; and V (1) points
down and (2) makes for a neat row. Z can be thought of as "zap," which
isn't too far from "reverse the last action." Having the keys all in a
row is an old idea; witness vi.

It had nothing to do with WordStar, Word, or the ASCII assignment of
CAN(cel) to 18h. (For non-computerists, that's 18 hex, i.e., 24 decimal,
meaning Ctrl-X at the keyboard, X being the 24th letter of the alphabet.
Ctrl+letter-key combinations produce ASCII control codes, and those
codes *do* *not* *print*. They are command codes. This is part of the
same standard that makes this text readable on just about every computer
system in the world.)

(By the way, what system uses Ctrl-X to delete a line? I've been at this
stuff since 1982, and I've never seen it.)

One of the design goals of the Mac's creators was to make programs such
as WordStar impossible. They were not about to copy anything from
WordStar. While WordStar lets you do *everything* through the Ctrl key,
the Mac in its first three years had *no* Ctrl key; it had a single
Command key, and that key was in the worst possible place for
comfortable use with all but a few character keys. The OS and the first
model apps simply did not allow keyboard-only operation. At the time,
CP/M was still going strong; lots of new IBM-type and non-IBM-type
machines were coming out; and WordStar held near-absolute sway in the
word processing world. Steve Jobs did not want Mac users learning a
method of operation that would be transferrable to other systems.

(Yo, Ralph -- it was indeed WordStar that jumped from zero to at least
seventy-five percent of the x86 word processing market in the second
half of 1982, creaming some twenty competitors. Sorry I didn't respond
to your question about this earlier; things have been gnarly here.)

Remember that every serious general-purpose system *must* have a Ctrl
key (even the Mac eventually got it), and that before 1986 Ctrl was
almost universally in the home row, immediately to the left of the A
key, the position preferred by most (*most*, I said) people who know a
thing or two about computers and must use the keyboard a great deal.

Since Z, X, and C are all in the bottom row (in QWERTY), Ctrl-Z, Ctrl-X,
and Ctrl-C, when used without a prefix keystroke in WordStar, move the
viewframe or the cursor down (all motion control is on the left hand).
Ctrl-V, being in the relatively awkward area between a touch typist's
hands, is assigned to the little-used insert/overtype toggle (and V can
be taken to represent "oVertype"). In blocK operations (which all have
Ctrl-K as a lead-in, and which include so-called cut-and-paste
functions), there is indeed a superficial similarity to the Mac
conventions: Ctrl-Kc copies, and Ctrl-Kv moVes, a marked block to the
current cursor position. Ctrl-Kx, however, is "save and exit with no
questions asked" (I have no trouble thinking of a file as a block; your
mileage may vary), and Ctrl-Kz at the time was not used.

Microsoft Word for MS/PC DOS did not use Alt-Z/X/C/V for Undo/Cut/Copy/
Paste, and Gates had a standing rule that programs must not use any
main-block Ctrl-key combinations (MS/PC DOS utilities responded to the
few recognized by the CP/M 2.2 command interpreter -- Ctrl-C, Ctrl-H,
Ctrl-I, Ctrl-M, Ctrl-P, and Ctrl-S -- but that was *it* for ten years,
until DR-DOS came along with a WordStar-like editor and WordStar-style
command-line recall and editing). Check out any big-name eighties-era
word processor other than WordStar. *It* *is* *incredible* the hoops
developers jumped through, both at Microsoft and at companies ostensibly
competing with Microsoft, to avoid assigning command functions to Ctrl-A
through Ctrl-Z.

Like Jobs, Gates wanted his customers conditioned to using keystrokes
available only on systems he profited from. Ctrl being common to all
machines, he didn't want people using it. His job was harder than
Jobs's: he didn't have direct, absolute control over hardware and
application design. With the cash and the clout afforded by his control
of the operating system, however, he could reward or punish other
companies according to whether or not they toed the line. And that's
exactly what he did. You can't deny the possibility out of hand. First
check out the command keystrokes of big-name eighties-era word
processors. Thoroughly. Please. The keystrokes tell all.

(This had the added benefit of ensuring that people would detest using
the keyboard and be ripe for Windows. I know a whole lotta people who
love, and I mean l-o-v-e LOVE WordStar, vi, or Emacs keystrokes and can
use them for everything all day every day. When was the last time you
heard anyone rave about WordPerfect, Word for MS/PC DOS, or MultiMate
[or, for that matter, Macintosh, or Windows, or CUA] command keystrokes?
Considering how many more people have used these programs by now, isn't
that just a little bit strange?)

Ctrl-Z/X/C/V for Undo/Cut/Copy/Paste did not exist in the x86 world
until IBM moved Ctrl out of the home row and Microsoft started moving
its Mac applications to Windows. Through version 2.03, the applications
bundled with Windows used Del for Cut, Ins for Paste, and F2 for Copy.
Alt worked as it does today, and Ctrl sat there dead as a doornail.
Check out _Windows_, the "official guide to Microsoft's operating
environment," copyright 1986 by Nancy Andrews (Microsoft Press, ISBN
0-914845-70-5). It wasn't enough to have a (minimally) consistent
interface; just like Jobs's (minimally) consistent interface, it had to
be as inconsistent as possible with any other system folks might come
across.

By the end of the eighties, CP/M was out of contention, almost all
keyboards had Ctrl in the bottom corner, word processors that ignored
Ctrl had pretty much taken over through institutional sales, and Windows
was in shape to be passed off as usable even to halfway knowledgeable
folks. Gates felt he could safely use Ctrl, and Lord knows he needed
something to offset the inefficiency of his mouse-and-proprietary-keys
method of working. To say he stole the Z/X/C/V suite from Apple is
exactly right.

Dan Strychalski                dski at cameonet, cameo, com, tw (no _x_)

Dan Strychalski wrote:

> Like Jobs, Gates wanted his customers conditioned to using keystrokes
> available only on systems he profited from. Ctrl being common to all
> machines, he didn't want people using it.

[snip]

> (This had the added benefit of ensuring that people would detest using
> the keyboard and be ripe for Windows. I know a whole lotta people who

I think Mr. Gates was not too impressed by GUI's. Development was slow
and halfhearted. Did anyone even see Microsoft's attempt in bringing GUI
style file management to a character based interface? It was sold with
the Zenith Easy-PC, an XT. Think it was bundled with DOS 3.2 or 3.3. The
interface really suck. Select file to copy with mouse, type destination
path from memory.

The editor to build the interface was nice though. Looked a bit like the
GEM resource editor, but carachter based.

> love, and I mean l-o-v-e LOVE WordStar, vi, or Emacs keystrokes and can
> use them for everything all day every day. When was the last time you
> heard anyone rave about WordPerfect, Word for MS/PC DOS, or MultiMate
> [or, for that matter, Macintosh, or Windows, or CUA] command keystrokes?

The Mac's are consistent and quick at least.

> Considering how many more people have used these programs by now, isn't
> that just a little bit strange?)
> 
> Ctrl-Z/X/C/V for Undo/Cut/Copy/Paste did not exist in the x86 world
> until IBM moved Ctrl out of the home row and Microsoft started moving
> its Mac applications to Windows. Through version 2.03, the applications
> bundled with Windows used Del for Cut, Ins for Paste, and F2 for Copy.
> Alt worked as it does today, and Ctrl sat there dead as a doornail.

This Alt-your-way-through-the-menus must be the worst UI invention ever
IMO. 
Oh boy was I surprised to see a key previously used as modifier-only
suddenly to have a action if pressed on its own.

> To say he stole the Z/X/C/V suite from Apple is
> exactly right.

Probably. Beats Shift-Insert (or Alt - E - P [or whatever language
program you are working in]) any time.

Apple later came with extended keyboards with undo/cut/copy/paste
symbols printed near the F1 through F4 keys.

Thomas

Dan Strychalski <dski@cameonet.cameo.com.twx> wrote:

>Interesting that knowledgeable folks can't figure out why some programs
>use Ctrl-V for Paste. It's supposed to be "intuitive," dontcha know.

     The way I see "intuitive" bandied about these days, I think it
now means
          Well, *I* know it.  What are you: an idiot or something?

[snip]

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation:
     I have preferences.
     You have biases.
     He/She has prejudices.

Dan Strychalski  <dski@cameonet.cameo.com.twx> wrote:

> Wherever the assignment of modifier-Z/X/C/V to Undo/Cut/Copy/Paste
> originally came from, it was introduced to the computing public through
> the first Macs, in 1984.

Actually, the Command-X/C/V keys were also used a year earlier by the
Lisa software.  But Command-Z for Undo seems to have been introduced
with the Mac.

> (By the way, what system uses Ctrl-X to delete a line? I've been at this
> stuff since 1982, and I've never seen it.)

The ones I've seen are the Apple II ROM line editor, the Radofin/Mattel
Aquarius, whatever version of CP/M it is that came with my Kaypro, and
a few ancient versions of Unix.

eric

On 9 Jan 1999 09:16:31 GMT, Dan Strychalski <dski@cameonet.cameo.com.twx> wrote:

 >Wherever the assignment of modifier-Z/X/C/V to Undo/Cut/Copy/Paste
 >originally came from, it was introduced to the computing public through
 >the first Macs, in 1984. 

Yes.

And MicroPro had a time machine, which is how these commands ended up in CP/M
versions of WordStar 5-7 years before then.

 >(By the way, what system uses Ctrl-X to delete a line? I've been at this
 >stuff since 1982, and I've never seen it.)

I don't know about "delete line" but Windows uses it for "delete block"

 >One of the design goals of the Mac's creators was to make programs such
 >as WordStar impossible. They were not about to copy anything from
 >WordStar. While WordStar lets you do *everything* through the Ctrl key,
 >the Mac in its first three years had *no* Ctrl key; it had a single
 >Command key, and that key was in the worst possible place for
 >comfortable use with all but a few character keys. The OS and the first
 >model apps simply did not allow keyboard-only operation. 

Making the Mac highly desirable for folks who had three hands - two for the
keyboard, and one for the mouse.

 >(Yo, Ralph -- it was indeed WordStar that jumped from zero to at least
 >seventy-five percent of the x86 word processing market in the second
 >half of 1982, creaming some twenty competitors. Sorry I didn't respond
 >to your question about this earlier; things have been gnarly here.)

You are looking at the wrong frame of reference. The x86 chips are an extension
of the 8080/Z80 chip. WordStar had that share of market in the CP/M world, and
if anything, it *increased* its market share as CP/M-86 and PC-DOS were
introduced. (Was it ever ported to the USCD operating system?)

deke

------------------------
Let love find you!   http://generous.net 
A list for flirting  generousSing...@onelist.com
Over The Hill Gang   generousSingle...@onelist.com   
College and younger  generousTee...@onelist.com
Lots of Personal Ads generousProfi...@onelist.com
   If it's not 'just the way you are', it's not love....

Gene Wirchenko (ge...@vip.net) remarked --

> Dan Strychalski <dski@cameonet.cameo.com.twx> wrote:
>
>> Interesting that knowledgeable folks can't figure out why some programs
>> use Ctrl-V for Paste. It's supposed to be "intuitive," dontcha know.
>
>      The way I see "intuitive" bandied about these days, I think it
> now means
>           Well, *I* know it.  What are you: an idiot or something?

I hope it didn't seem as though I was saying something like the last
line above. I meant my remark as a dig at the marketeers who have ruined
that word.

You have it right, Gene. In a perfect world, a lot more people would be
as sensitive as you are to the intentions behind people's words.

(That's "a lot more," not "all." A perfect world would not be a boring
world. ;-)

Dan Strychalski                dski at cameonet, cameo, com, tw (no _x_)

 From deke.sp...@generous.net came --

>> Wherever the assignment of modifier-Z/X/C/V to Undo/Cut/Copy/Paste
>> originally came from, it was introduced to the computing public through
>> the first Macs, in 1984.  [That's me; Deke is next -- DS]
  . . .
> And MicroPro had a time machine, which is how these commands ended up in
> CP/M versions of WordStar 5-7 years before then.

I'm not sure if that's a toss at me or at someone else, but I'll field
it. In WordStar --

Ctrl-Z scrolls the viewframe down a line.  Undo is Ctrl-U.
Ctrl-X moves the cursor down a line.       Delete Marked Block is Ctrl-Ky.
Ctrl-C scrolls the viewframe down a frame. Copy Marked Block is Ctrl-Kc.
Ctrl-V is Overtype, i.e., Insert off/on.   No clipboard, no "paste."
                                           *Move* Marked Block is Ctrl-Kv.

I believe Apple started with C for "copy" and X for "X out" (or
"scissors") and took it from there. *Perhaps* WordStar's use of Ctrl-Kv
for Move Marked Block emboldened them enough to use Cmd-V for Paste. It
would be an interesting question to ask the folks whose signatures are
inside the early Mac case, molded onto the back cover.

C is a natural for "copy," and the letter is one of the easiest to hit
no matter where your modifier key is, so I doubt that Apple had
WordStar's Ctrl-Kc in mind when making that assignment. They were
enormously creative, ya gotta give 'em that.

Here's my read on the philosophy behind the WordStar assignments:
WordStar at the time did not have Undo as we know it now; Ctrl-U was
really "cancel" (it became Undo [still different from Mac/Windows Undo,
but Undo nevertheless] in version 4.0, in 1986 I think). So for safety's
sake, all deletions were in the awkward area between a touch typist's
hands: T, Y, G, and H. Move Marked Block became Ctrl-Kv instead of
Ctrl-Km because (1) it involved a deletion, and V is awkward with your
pinkie on the home-row Ctrl key (Ctrl-Kv *could* be undone quite easily,
but a newbie might not know how), and (2) the developers avoided using
M, since a follow-up to Ctrl-K (or to any other lead-in) was treated the
same whether it was uppercase, lowercase, or Ctrl'd, so M would be
indistinguishable from Return on the keyboards of the time and using it
could lead to confusion (or unwanted restrictions in future versions).

>> Command key, and that key was in the worst possible place for
>> comfortable use with all but a few character keys. The OS and the first
>> model apps simply did not allow keyboard-only operation.
>
> Making the Mac highly desirable for folks who had three hands - two for the
> keyboard, and one for the mouse.

My main objection is that it was *unnecessary*. A WordStar-like keyset
works *beautifully* with a menu bar and pull-downs. But neither Apple
nor Microsoft will allow it, even as an option. I think this is because
they want people locked into architecture-specific keystrokes, and Ctrl
is universal.

>> (Yo, Ralph -- it was indeed WordStar that jumped from zero to at least
>> seventy-five percent of the x86 word processing market in the second
>> half of 1982, creaming some twenty competitors. Sorry I didn't respond
>> to your question about this earlier; things have been gnarly here.)
>
> You are looking at the wrong frame of reference. The x86 chips are an
> extension of the 8080/Z80 chip. WordStar had that share of market in the
> CP/M world, and if anything, it *increased* its market share as CP/M-86 and
> PC-DOS were introduced. (Was it ever ported to the USCD operating system?)

I don't believe it was. I think you misunderstand what I wrote, and I
indeed should have written "MS/PC DOS" instead of "x86." WordStar must
have had eighty or ninety percent of the 8080/Z80 word processing
market. CP/M folk were loath to switch to IBM micros in the first few
years, so I consider the MS/PC DOS arena a separate market. IBM (and
probably Microsoft) worked with Sorcim and others so that apps would be
available for the 5150 as soon as it appeared. The word processors, of
course, relied heavily on IBM's function, arrow, and editing keys. Along
came WordStar, which laughed at those keys (they worked, but you didn't
need them), and BOOM, zero to seventy-five percent in less than six
months, without bundling or (as far as I know) great hoopla. It took
WPCorp, et al., a *long* time (and *serious* foul-ups on Micropro's
part) to erode that lead. And with all the copying going on in the
industry at the time, not only did no one (no one big, at least) copy
anything from WordStar, they * didn't * even * put * the * main-block *
Ctrl-key * combinations * to * other * uses *. It oughta make ya think.

Dan Strychalski                dski at cameonet, cameo, com, tw (no _x_)

Dan Strychalski <dski@cameonet.cameo.com.twx> wrote:

>Gene Wirchenko (ge...@vip.net) remarked --
>
>> Dan Strychalski <dski@cameonet.cameo.com.twx> wrote:
>>
>>> Interesting that knowledgeable folks can't figure out why some programs
>>> use Ctrl-V for Paste. It's supposed to be "intuitive," dontcha know.
>>
>>      The way I see "intuitive" bandied about these days, I think it
>> now means
>>           Well, *I* know it.  What are you: an idiot or something?
>
>I hope it didn't seem as though I was saying something like the last
>line above. I meant my remark as a dig at the marketeers who have ruined
>that word.

     No, I caught your drift and I was digging the hole.

>You have it right, Gene. In a perfect world, a lot more people would be
>as sensitive as you are to the intentions behind people's words.

     It's not necessarily the intention.  Often, it's the effective
use.  Nice fireworks when one points this out.

>(That's "a lot more," not "all." A perfect world would not be a boring
>world. ;-)

     True.  It's not as if shovelling B.S. is fun and we should do it
forever.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation:
     I have preferences.
     You have biases.
     He/She has prejudices.

Dan Strychalski <dski@cameonet.cameo.com.twx> wrote:

[snip]

>Here's my read on the philosophy behind the WordStar assignments:
>WordStar at the time did not have Undo as we know it now; Ctrl-U was
>really "cancel" (it became Undo [still different from Mac/Windows Undo,
>but Undo nevertheless] in version 4.0, in 1986 I think). So for safety's
>sake, all deletions were in the awkward area between a touch typist's
>hands: T, Y, G, and H. Move Marked Block became Ctrl-Kv instead of
>Ctrl-Km because (1) it involved a deletion, and V is awkward with your
>pinkie on the home-row Ctrl key (Ctrl-Kv *could* be undone quite easily,
>but a newbie might not know how), and (2) the developers avoided using

     But ^KV *was* move in 8-bit WordStar.  Icertainly used it often
enough.

[snip]

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation:
     I have preferences.
     You have biases.
     He/She has prejudices.

On Thu, 7 Jan 1999 03:28:32 -0700, "Scott" <no...@nospam.com> wrote:

>The most obvious reason is that Ctrl Z, X, C, V are most convenient for some
>of the most common operations: Undo, Cut, Copy and Paste.  Simply because
>they are close to the control key on most keyboards.

But the Z key is up between the T and U keys, way off the X-C-V row!
What you mean is the Y key!

(*argh* stop hitting me, please ...)
-- 
>> Please visit http://www.ibert.com/ for contact information. <<
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Blind faith in your leaders, or in anything, will get you killed!

Martin Ibert wrote in message <36a25cf6...@news.home.ibert.com>...
:On Thu, 7 Jan 1999 03:28:32 -0700, "Scott" <no...@nospam.com> wrote:
:
:>The most obvious reason is that Ctrl Z, X, C, V are most convenient
for some
:>of the most common operations: Undo, Cut, Copy and Paste.  Simply
because
:>they are close to the control key on most keyboards.
:
:But the Z key is up between the T and U keys, way off the X-C-V row!
:What you mean is the Y key!


No, no, no. Z goes between A and E, surely?

You're thinking of the W key. :)

AndyC

OK who's the joker with the Dvorak keyboard!

--
Rick Lugg

Andrew Cadley wrote in message <780oqr$a...@cpca3.uea.ac.uk>...
>
>Martin Ibert wrote in message <36a25cf6...@news.home.ibert.com>...
>:On Thu, 7 Jan 1999 03:28:32 -0700, "Scott" <no...@nospam.com> wrote:
>:
>:>The most obvious reason is that Ctrl Z, X, C, V are most convenient
>for some
>:>of the most common operations: Undo, Cut, Copy and Paste.  Simply
>because
>:>they are close to the control key on most keyboards.
>:
>:But the Z key is up between the T and U keys, way off the X-C-V row!
>:What you mean is the Y key!
>
>
>No, no, no. Z goes between A and E, surely?
>
>You're thinking of the W key. :)
>
>AndyC
>

In article <781qk6$3ql$1...@news3.saix.net>,
Rick Lugg <ricklugg@intekom.co.za.hmmm> wrote:
>OK who's the joker with the Dvorak keyboard!

>Andrew Cadley wrote in message <780oqr$a...@cpca3.uea.ac.uk>...
>>Martin Ibert wrote in message <36a25cf6...@news.home.ibert.com>...

>>:But the Z key is up between the T and U keys, way off the X-C-V row!
>>:What you mean is the Y key!

>>No, no, no. Z goes between A and E, surely?
>>
>>You're thinking of the W key. :)

Actually, Martin was thinking of the German QWERTZ keyboard -- Y and Z are
switched compared to their positions on the American keyboard.  There are
probably other changes.

And Andrew was thinking of the French (Belgian? Swiss?) AZERTY keyboard.

-- Derek

Martin Ibert wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 7 Jan 1999 03:28:32 -0700, "Scott" <no...@nospam.com> wrote:
> 
> >The most obvious reason is that Ctrl Z, X, C, V are most convenient for some
> >of the most common operations: Undo, Cut, Copy and Paste.  Simply because
> >they are close to the control key on most keyboards.
> 
> But the Z key is up between the T and U keys, way off the X-C-V row!
> What you mean is the Y key!

ZXCV are next to one another on _most_ keyboards; generally US/UK ones
(dunno the layouts of other locale keyboards).  In this sense, BillG was
playing to the largest market (US+UK probably use > 50% of the world's
computers).

-- 
John Riddoch	Email: j...@scms.rgu.ac.uk	Telephone: (01224)262730
Room C4, School of Computer and Mathematical Science
Robert Gordon University, Aberdeen, AB25 1HG
"Yoda of Borg are we:  Futile is resistance.  Assimilate you, we will"

John Riddoch <j...@scms.rgu.ac.uk> remarked --

> ZXCV are next to one another on _most_ keyboards; generally US/UK ones
> (dunno the layouts of other locale keyboards).  In this sense, BillG was
> playing to the largest market (US+UK probably use > 50% of the world's
> computers).

Repeat after me: It started on the Mac. It started on the Mac. It started
on the Mac....

In Windows 1.02 and 2.03, BillG tied up Alt for menu and command names
and treated Ctrl as though it carried some deadly contagion (which it
does, I suppose, from a would-be monopolist's point of view). His
"shortcuts" (*ptooey!*) for Cut, Copy, and Paste were Del, F2, and Ins.
The ZXCV suite * came * from * the * Mac * (with Cmd as the modifier, of
course; we don't need no steenking standards-based command keystokes...).

Regarding keyboard layouts used for different languages, here are some:

Belgian and French           A Z E R T Y U I O P
                              Q S D F G H J K L M
                               W X C V B N
 
German and Swiss             Q W E R T Z U I O P
                              A S D F G H J K L
                               Y X C V B N M
 
Danish, Dutch, Italian,      Q W E R T Y U I O P
Norwegian, Portuguese,        A S D F G H J K L
Spanish, Swedish, UK, USA      Z X C V B N M
 
And don't forget Dvorak            P Y F G C R L
(U.S. Dvorak, I'd guess)      A O E U I D H T N S
                                 Q J K X B M W V Z

Dan Strychalski
dski at cameonet, cameo, com, tw (no _x_)

Dan Strychalski wrote:

>
>
> German and Swiss             Q W E R T Z U I O P
>                               A S D F G H J K L
>                                Y X C V B N M
>

Ah yes.  On a recent trip to Germany, I was faced with the deceptively
daunting task of writing program documentation in MSWord, using a German
keyboard with the keycaps laid out as above.  But since I was working in
English, and didn't know what all the German menu prompts meant, I had to set
Windows up as American/English.  So now, although I could type normally, as
long as I didn't look at the keyboard, whenever I did look, I couldn't even
type my own name!  And then, when I put the documents on floppy and flew home,
and loaded them up in Word on my own PC, all kinds of wierdness happened,
since the MSWord in Germany was set up for the European paper sizes -
something like 9x11.5 in inches - and all my documents had to be reworked,
since they contained a lot of tables and illustrations...formatted to the
wrong size page.

In article <784rts$nqd$1...@news.seed.net.tw>,
Dan Strychalski  <dski@cameonet.cameo.com.twx> wrote:
>German and Swiss             Q W E R T Z U I O P
>                              A S D F G H J K L
>                               Y X C V B N M

>And don't forget Dvorak            P Y F G C R L
>(U.S. Dvorak, I'd guess)      A O E U I D H T N S
>                                 Q J K X B M W V Z

Hmm.  Is German Dvorak
>           P Z F G C R L
>      A O E U I D H T N S
>         Q J K X B M W V Y

then?

-s
-- 
Peter Seebach - se...@solon.com - Copyright 1996 Peter Seebach.
C/Unix wizard -- C/Unix questions? Send mail for help.  No, really!
Unsolicited email is not welcome, and will be billed for at consulting rates.
The *other* C FAQ - http://www.solon.com/~seebs/c/c-iaq.html

In article <3695CE...@ccii.co.za>,
Wouter de Waal  <bofh...@ccii.co.za> wrote:

>Ah yes, but Wordstar used Ctrl-K B to mark the block start, Ctrl-K K for
>block end (getit? :-) Ctrl-K C for copy, X for cut, V for paste. So it

This makes me feel a *little* better about remembering that paste . . .

rick, who's finally broken himself of the wordstar sequences (he thinks)
-- 
These opinions will not be those of ISU until it pays my retainer.

In article <7776pf$jbo$1...@news.seed.net.tw>,
Dan Strychalski  <dski@cameonet.cameo.com.twx> wrote:

>Remember that every serious general-purpose system *must* have a Ctrl
>key (even the Mac eventually got it), and that before 1986 Ctrl was
>almost universally in the home row, immediately to the left of the A
>key, the position preferred by most (*most*, I said) people who know a
>thing or two about computers and must use the keyboard a great deal.

yes, exactly where God intended it to be.

>Since Z, X, and C are all in the bottom row (in QWERTY), Ctrl-Z, Ctrl-X,
>and Ctrl-C, when used without a prefix keystroke in WordStar, move the
>viewframe or the cursor down (all motion control is on the left hand).
>Ctrl-V, being in the relatively awkward area between a touch typist's
>hands, is assigned to the little-used insert/overtype toggle (and V can
>be taken to represent "oVertype"). In blocK operations (which all have
>Ctrl-K as a lead-in, and which include so-called cut-and-paste
>functions), there is indeed a superficial similarity to the Mac
>conventions: Ctrl-Kc copies, and Ctrl-Kv moVes, a marked block to the
>current cursor position. Ctrl-Kx, however, is "save and exit with no
>questions asked"

As I recall, there was no "clipboard" type operation; the text had to
remain existing int the document until moved or copied.

>(This had the added benefit of ensuring that people would detest using
>the keyboard and be ripe for Windows. I know a whole lotta people who
>love, and I mean l-o-v-e LOVE WordStar, vi, or Emacs keystrokes and can
>use them for everything all day every day. When was the last time you
>heard anyone rave about WordPerfect, Word for MS/PC DOS, or MultiMate
>[or, for that matter, Macintosh, or Windows, or CUA] command keystrokes?
>Considering how many more people have used these programs by now, isn't
>that just a little bit strange?)

And with those evil keyboads with the control-key-in-exile, several
days of heavy emacs work sent me to a physician to check out the strain.
But now I have three genuine AT keyboards.  One has a sticky R, 
another a sticky tab, and the third i haven't tried (it's filthy, but
at $1/pop . . .).  So I have to drop them on the desk twice a day;
they have a good, stiff, response :)

>By the end of the eighties, CP/M was out of contention, 

Wait a minute, wasn't this DR-DOS's heyday?  I recall it peaking at
about 10% market share, right until those mysterious windows crashes
& funny "every unit you ship, regardless of using msdos" licensing
terms.  

For those that don't recall, CP/M became CP/M-86 which spun off 
Concurrent CP/M which i observed multitasking in 1984 on an 8086,
which became Concurrent Dos, or CDOS.  I forget whether CP/M-86 
or CDOS became DR-DOS, which became Novel Dos, which became Caldera 
Dos, which became DR-DOS, which premptively multitasks, unlike a 
certain popular system. If they weren't descended from CDOS, I 
don't know when they started multitasking, and I also don't know 
when it became concurrent.  But I do know that in 1984 I had an
8mhz 8086 with 640K and no hard disk running word star, pip, and 
something else simultaneously.


-- 
These opinions will not be those of ISU until it pays my retainer.

Dan Strychalski <dski@cameonet.cameo.com.twx> wrote:

> Regarding keyboard layouts used for different languages, here are some:
> 
> Belgian and French           A Z E R T Y U I O P
>                               Q S D F G H J K L M
>                                W X C V B N
>  
> German and Swiss             Q W E R T Z U I O P
>                               A S D F G H J K L
>                                Y X C V B N M
>  
> Danish, Dutch, Italian,      Q W E R T Y U I O P
> Norwegian, Portuguese,        A S D F G H J K L
> Spanish, Swedish, UK, USA      Z X C V B N M

Anyone knows what's the story behind those three variations?

Here's the japanese kana keyboard. Nowadays, though, most people 
use the American QWERTY keyboard and type in romaji (e.g., "n" 
and then "u" to get the "nu" character).

nu fu a  u  e  o  ya yu yo wa ho he -
 ta te i  su ka n  na ni ra se " .
  ti to si ha ki ku ma no ri re ke mu
   tu sa so hi ko mi mo ne ru me ro

" is tenten, . is maru, - is katakana long vowel;
shifted a, i, u, e, o, ya, yu, yo, tu are small versions;
shifted wa is wo.

Paul Guertin
p...@sff.et

Paul Guertin (p...@sff.et -- et?!?) posted:

> Here's the japanese kana keyboard. Nowadays, though, most people

Thank you! It has been added to the collection.

Been meaning to do this for a long time.... Below is how the Bopomofo
syllabary, a.k.a. Zhuyin Fuhao or National Phonetic Alphabet, is laid
out. I've used Yale romanization rather than the now-ubiquitous Pinyin
because it's the same in many cases, I know it better, and it gives a
better approximation of the sounds for non-Sinophone English speakers.
The numbers are tones (3 and 4 are on the 3 and 4 keys; first tone is
the space bar). Power typists mostly use stroke-based systems; this is
for folks like me who only occasionally type Chinese:

b(o)  d(e)  3     4        j(r)   2   .     a     ai  an  er
 p(o)  t(e)  g(e)  j(i/y)   ch(r)  dz  (y)i  (w)o  ei  en
  m(o)  n(e)  k(e)  ch(i/y)  sh(r)  ts  (w)u  e     au  ang
   f(o)  l(e)  h(e)  sy(i)    r      sz  (y)u  (y)e  ou  eng

Y'know, we did Chinese with an expansion card on the Apple II -- and I
really should make sure my MacChina disks still work on my Mac 512Ke....

Dan Strychalski                dski at cameonet, cameo, com, tw (no _x_)

Dan Strychalski <dski@cameonet.cameo.com.twx> wrote:

> Paul Guertin (p...@sff.et -- et?!?) posted:

It's the TLD for flying saucers and other extra-terrestrial craft.
I've been abducted. Either that, or I made a typo in my signature. 
Oops.

> Y'know, we did Chinese with an expansion card on the Apple II 

That's interesting. I didn't know such a thing existed. What was 
the card connected to? Did it use the standard hi-res mode?

Paul Guertin
p...@sff.net
       ^

Paul Guertin (p...@sff.net) posted --

> Dan Strychalski <dski@cameonet.cameo.com.twx> wrote:
>
>> Paul Guertin (p...@sff.et -- et?!?) posted:
>
> It's the TLD for flying saucers and other extra-terrestrial craft.
> I've been abducted. Either that, or I made a typo in my signature.

:-). No prob. I thought it might be an anti-spam mechanism.

>> Y'know, we did Chinese with an expansion card on the Apple II
>
> That's interesting. I didn't know such a thing existed. What was
> the card connected to? Did it use the standard hi-res mode?

It went in one of the expansion slots. I'm pretty sure it used the
standard hi-res mode and didn't require any special connections. It may
have been available only in Taiwan. I got one for a friend and used it
only briefly.

Dan Strychalski               dski at cameonet, cameo, com, tw (no _x_)

On Wednesday, January 20, 1999 at 1:00:00 AM UTC-7, Dan Strychalski wrote:

> Regarding keyboard layouts used for different languages, here are some:

My page at

http://www.quadibloc.com/comp/kyb04.htm

has a few. It doesn't include the most ordinary ones, as you can find them in 
sources like the manual for DOS 5, but it includes some rarely-seen ones that 
haven't made it to computers yet.

John Savard

Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> writes:

> On Wednesday, January 20, 1999 at 1:00:00 AM UTC-7, Dan Strychalski wrote:
                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>> Regarding keyboard layouts used for different languages, here are some:
>
> My page at
>
> http://www.quadibloc.com/comp/kyb04.htm
>
> has a few. It doesn't include the most ordinary ones, as you can find them in 
> sources like the manual for DOS 5, but it includes some rarely-seen ones that 
> haven't made it to computers yet.

Odd, looks like you read/post on ES but you replied to an article from
1999.  Doesn't appear to be on ES.

-- 
Dan Espen

On Friday, January 23, 2015 at 11:03:20 AM UTC-7, MLCWA wrote:

> Odd, looks like you read/post on ES but you replied to an article from
> 1999.  Doesn't appear to be on ES.

Someone else had recently posted to the thread, and so I responded to an article newly visible on GG. Didn't check the date.

John Savard