🚀 go-pugleaf

On Wednesday, January 20, 1999 at 2:00:00 AM UTC-6, Dan Strychalski wrote:
> John Riddoch <j...@scms.rgu.ac.uk> remarked --
> 
> > ZXCV are next to one another on _most_ keyboards; generally US/UK ones
> > (dunno the layouts of other locale keyboards).  In this sense, BillG was
> > playing to the largest market (US+UK probably use > 50% of the world's
> > computers).
> 
> Repeat after me: It started on the Mac. It started on the Mac. It started
> on the Mac....
> 

*cough* Smalltalk Bravo Alto *cough*

On 12/15/2017 2:32 AM, Huge wrote:
> On 2017-12-14, luserdroog <mij...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Wednesday, January 20, 1999 at 2:00:00 AM UTC-6, Dan Strychalski wrote:
>>> John Riddoch <j...@scms.rgu.ac.uk> remarked --
>>>
>>>> ZXCV are next to one another on _most_ keyboards; generally US/UK ones
>>>> (dunno the layouts of other locale keyboards).  In this sense, BillG was
>>>> playing to the largest market (US+UK probably use > 50% of the world's
>>>> computers).
>>>
>>> Repeat after me: It started on the Mac. It started on the Mac. It started
>>> on the Mac....
>>>
>>
>> *cough* Smalltalk Bravo Alto *cough*
> 
> *applause*
> 
> 

The Mac GUI made some changes to the GUI's for the Bravo and Alto.

On the Alto, you pointed the mouse to a window and clicked.  A menu 
would pop up... and you could select "move".  The mouse cursor would 
change to the "move" cursor, you dragged and dropped the window yo the 
desired position, then the mouse cursor would chsnge back to the regular 
cursor.  You repeated this process any time you wanted to move a window.

The Mac allowed you to directly move the window using the dragger bar at 
the top.

An analogous process was needed on the Alto/Bravo to resize a window on 
the Alto.  The Mac provided for direct window resize without selecting 
from a menu.

-- 
numerist at aquaporin4 dot com

On Fri, 15 Dec 2017 14:15:42 -0600, Charles Richmond
<nume...@aquaporin4.com> wrote:

>On 12/15/2017 2:32 AM, Huge wrote:
>> On 2017-12-14, luserdroog <mij...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, January 20, 1999 at 2:00:00 AM UTC-6, Dan Strychalski wrote:
>>>> John Riddoch <j...@scms.rgu.ac.uk> remarked --
>>>>
>>>>> ZXCV are next to one another on _most_ keyboards; generally US/UK ones
>>>>> (dunno the layouts of other locale keyboards).  In this sense, BillG was
>>>>> playing to the largest market (US+UK probably use > 50% of the world's
>>>>> computers).
>>>>
>>>> Repeat after me: It started on the Mac. It started on the Mac. It started
>>>> on the Mac....
>>>>
>>>
>>> *cough* Smalltalk Bravo Alto *cough*
>> 
>> *applause*
>> 
>> 
>
>The Mac GUI made some changes to the GUI's for the Bravo and Alto.
>
>On the Alto, you pointed the mouse to a window and clicked.  A menu 
>would pop up... and you could select "move".  The mouse cursor would 
>change to the "move" cursor, you dragged and dropped the window yo the 
>desired position, then the mouse cursor would chsnge back to the regular 
>cursor.  You repeated this process any time you wanted to move a window.
>
>The Mac allowed you to directly move the window using the dragger bar at 
>the top.
>
>An analogous process was needed on the Alto/Bravo to resize a window on 
>the Alto.  The Mac provided for direct window resize without selecting 
>from a menu.

And on various Unix flavors there are other differences in detail.  So
what? 

On 12/15/2017 2:19 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Fri, 15 Dec 2017 14:15:42 -0600, Charles Richmond
> <nume...@aquaporin4.com> wrote:
> 
>> On 12/15/2017 2:32 AM, Huge wrote:
>>> On 2017-12-14, luserdroog <mij...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, January 20, 1999 at 2:00:00 AM UTC-6, Dan Strychalski wrote:
>>>>> John Riddoch <j...@scms.rgu.ac.uk> remarked --
>>>>>
>>>>>> ZXCV are next to one another on _most_ keyboards; generally US/UK ones
>>>>>> (dunno the layouts of other locale keyboards).  In this sense, BillG was
>>>>>> playing to the largest market (US+UK probably use > 50% of the world's
>>>>>> computers).
>>>>>
>>>>> Repeat after me: It started on the Mac. It started on the Mac. It started
>>>>> on the Mac....
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *cough* Smalltalk Bravo Alto *cough*
>>>
>>> *applause*
>>>
>>>
>>
>> The Mac GUI made some changes to the GUI's for the Bravo and Alto.
>>
>> On the Alto, you pointed the mouse to a window and clicked.  A menu
>> would pop up... and you could select "move".  The mouse cursor would
>> change to the "move" cursor, you dragged and dropped the window yo the
>> desired position, then the mouse cursor would chsnge back to the regular
>> cursor.  You repeated this process any time you wanted to move a window.
>>
>> The Mac allowed you to directly move the window using the dragger bar at
>> the top.
>>
>> An analogous process was needed on the Alto/Bravo to resize a window on
>> the Alto.  The Mac provided for direct window resize without selecting
>>from a menu.
> 
> And on various Unix flavors there are other differences in detail.  So
> what?
> 

If you ignore all the relevant facts... I guess there's nothing...

-- 
numerist at aquaporin4 dot com

On Fri, 15 Dec 2017 15:19:11 -0500
J. Clarke <jclarke...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, 15 Dec 2017 14:15:42 -0600, Charles Richmond
> <nume...@aquaporin4.com> wrote:

> >The Mac GUI made some changes to the GUI's for the Bravo and Alto.
> >
> >On the Alto, you pointed the mouse to a window and clicked.  A menu 
> >would pop up... and you could select "move".  The mouse cursor would 
> >change to the "move" cursor, you dragged and dropped the window yo the 
> >desired position, then the mouse cursor would chsnge back to the regular 
> >cursor.  You repeated this process any time you wanted to move a window.
> >
> >The Mac allowed you to directly move the window using the dragger bar at 
> >the top.
> >
> >An analogous process was needed on the Alto/Bravo to resize a window on 
> >the Alto.  The Mac provided for direct window resize without selecting 
> >from a menu.
> 
> And on various Unix flavors there are other differences in detail.  So
> what? 

	Point and click was Xerox's innovation, drag and drop was Apple's,
I'm not too sure about the origins of focus follows pointer or multi-finger
gestures on touchpads and screens.

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN                                     | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

On 12/15/2017 11:28 PM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Fri, 15 Dec 2017 15:19:11 -0500
> J. Clarke <jclarke...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> On Fri, 15 Dec 2017 14:15:42 -0600, Charles Richmond
>> <nume...@aquaporin4.com> wrote:
> 
>>> The Mac GUI made some changes to the GUI's for the Bravo and Alto.
>>>
>>> On the Alto, you pointed the mouse to a window and clicked.  A menu
>>> would pop up... and you could select "move".  The mouse cursor would
>>> change to the "move" cursor, you dragged and dropped the window yo the
>>> desired position, then the mouse cursor would chsnge back to the regular
>>> cursor.  You repeated this process any time you wanted to move a window.
>>>
>>> The Mac allowed you to directly move the window using the dragger bar at
>>> the top.
>>>
>>> An analogous process was needed on the Alto/Bravo to resize a window on
>>> the Alto.  The Mac provided for direct window resize without selecting
>> >from a menu.
>>
>> And on various Unix flavors there are other differences in detail.  So
>> what?
> 
> 	Point and click was Xerox's innovation, drag and drop was Apple's,
> I'm not too sure about the origins of focus follows pointer or multi-finger
> gestures on touchpads and screens.
> 

Doesn't Doug Englebart get credit for anything that one can do with the 
mouse???  Englebart held the patent on the mouse beginning in 1970... 
his tiled windows must have used the mouse somehow!

-- 
numerist at aquaporin4 dot com

On 1/30/2018 7:37 PM, gta...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, January 7, 1999 at 3:00:00 AM UTC-5, Adrian Thompson wrote:
>> Hi.
>> Can anyone out there tell me why Windows uses Ctrl-V as a keyboard
>> shortcut for Paste? I've just been asked by one fo the children here, and
>> I realised I have no idea!
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>>
>> Adrian Thompson
>> Laisterdyke GM Middle School
>> IT Technician
>>
>> http://www.schoolsite.edex.net.uk/365/index.htm
>> http://www.athompson.mcmail.com
> 
> V stands for Vipectus which is latin for paste
> 

So you are saying... that *all* the computers used in ancient Rome... 
used cntl-V for paste???   ;-)

-- 
numerist at aquaporin4 dot com

On 31/01/2018 01:50, Charles Richmond wrote:
> On 1/30/2018 7:37 PM, gta...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Thursday, January 7, 1999 at 3:00:00 AM UTC-5, Adrian Thompson wrote:
>>> Hi.
>>> Can anyone out there tell me why Windows uses Ctrl-V as a keyboard
>>> shortcut for Paste? I've just been asked by one fo the children here, 
>>> and
>>> I realised I have no idea!
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>>
>>> Adrian Thompson
>>> Laisterdyke GM Middle School
>>> IT Technician
>>>
>>> http://www.schoolsite.edex.net.uk/365/index.htm
>>> http://www.athompson.mcmail.com
>>
>> V stands for Vipectus which is latin for paste
>>
> 
> So you are saying... that *all* the computers used in ancient Rome... 
> used cntl-V for paste???   ;-)

That is correct although since the Roman alphabet only had 23 letters 
instead of our 26 they used 'V' for 'U' (which is why the name for  W is 
'double U' when it is actually a double V).

This is the real reason why ancient Rome never had the concept of the 
Underline since they could not used ctrl-U in WordStar (or LexisStella 
as it was called back then). It was only in the 1600s when the U came 
into common use that they people of ancient time could finally fill in 
the blank key between 'Y' and 'I'' and start underlining things.

True Fact.

Andy

gtaxin wrote:

> in AD MCMXCIX Adrian Thompson wrote:
>
>> Can anyone out there tell me why Windows uses Ctrl-V as a keyboard 
>> shortcut for Paste? >
> V stands for Vipectus which is latin for paste> 

So why don't we have Ctrl-S for cut? Where S stands for secare ...

from afc:

On Wed, 31 Jan 2018 08:36:05 GMT, AndyW <An...@nojunqmail.com> wrote:

> On 31/01/2018 01:50, Charles Richmond wrote:
>> On 1/30/2018 7:37 PM, gta...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Thursday, January 7, 1999 at 3:00:00 AM UTC-5, Adrian Thompson
>>> wrote: 
>>>> Hi.
>>>> Can anyone out there tell me why Windows uses Ctrl-V as a keyboard
>>>> shortcut for Paste? I've just been asked by one fo the children
>>>> here, and
>>>> I realised I have no idea!
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Adrian Thompson
>>>> Laisterdyke GM Middle School
>>>> IT Technician
>>>>
>>>> http://www.schoolsite.edex.net.uk/365/index.htm
>>>> http://www.athompson.mcmail.com
>>>
>>> V stands for Vipectus which is latin for paste
>>>
>> 
>> So you are saying... that *all* the computers used in ancient Rome...
>> used cntl-V for paste???   ;-)
> 
> That is correct although since the Roman alphabet only had 23 letters 
> instead of our 26 they used 'V' for 'U' (which is why the name for  W
> is 'double U' when it is actually a double V).
> 
> This is the real reason why ancient Rome never had the concept of the 
> Underline since they could not used ctrl-U in WordStar (or LexisStella
> as it was called back then). It was only in the 1600s when the U came 
> into common use that they people of ancient time could finally fill in
> the blank key between 'Y' and 'I'' and start underlining things.
> 
> True Fact.
> 
> Andy
> 
> 
> 



-- 
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.

On 1/31/2018 2:36 AM, AndyW wrote:
> On 31/01/2018 01:50, Charles Richmond wrote:
>> On 1/30/2018 7:37 PM, gta...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Thursday, January 7, 1999 at 3:00:00 AM UTC-5, Adrian Thompson wrote:
>>>> Hi.
>>>> Can anyone out there tell me why Windows uses Ctrl-V as a keyboard
>>>> shortcut for Paste? I've just been asked by one fo the children 
>>>> here, and
>>>> I realised I have no idea!
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Adrian Thompson
>>>> Laisterdyke GM Middle School
>>>> IT Technician
>>>>
>>>> http://www.schoolsite.edex.net.uk/365/index.htm
>>>> http://www.athompson.mcmail.com
>>>
>>> V stands for Vipectus which is latin for paste
>>>
>>
>> So you are saying... that *all* the computers used in ancient Rome... 
>> used cntl-V for paste???   ;-)
> 
> That is correct although since the Roman alphabet only had 23 letters 
> instead of our 26 they used 'V' for 'U' (which is why the name for  W is 
> 'double U' when it is actually a double V).
> 

The sounds /w/ (spelled ⟨V⟩) and /b/ (spelled ⟨B⟩) of Classical Latin 
developed into a bilabial fricative /β/ between vowels in Early Medieval 
Latin. Therefore, ⟨V⟩ no longer adequately represented the labial-velar 
approximant sound /w/ of Germanic phonology.

The Germanic /w/ phoneme was therefore written as ⟨VV⟩ or ⟨uu⟩ (⟨u⟩ and 
⟨v⟩ becoming distinct only by the Early Modern period. By the 7th or 8th 
century, the earliest writers of Old English and Old High German.[3] 
Gothic (not Latin-based), by contrast, simply used a letter based on the 
Greek Υ for the same sound. The digraph ⟨VV⟩/⟨uu⟩ was also used in 
Medieval Latin to represent Germanic names, including Gothic ones like 
Wamba.

It is from this ⟨uu⟩ digraph that the modern name "double U" derives. 
The digraph was commonly used in the spelling of Old High German, but 
only sporadically in Old English, where the /w/ sound was usually 
represented by the runic ⟨Ƿ⟩ wynn. In early Middle English, following 
the 11th-century Norman Conquest, ⟨uu⟩ gained popularity and by 1300 it 
had taken wynn's place in common use.

Scribal realization of the digraph could look like a pair of Vs whose 
branches crossed in the middle. An obsolete, cursive form found in the 
nineteenth century in both English and German was in the form of an ⟨n⟩ 
whose rightmost branch curved around as in a cursive ⟨v⟩.[citation needed]

The shift from the digraph ⟨VV⟩ to the distinct ligature ⟨W⟩ is thus 
gradual, and is only apparent in abecedaria, explicit listings of all 
individual letters. It was probably considered a separate letter by the 
14th century in both Middle English and Middle German orthography, 
although it remained an outsider, not really considered part of the 
Latin alphabet proper, as expressed by Valentin Ickelshamer in the 16th 
century, who complained that:

“ 	Poor w is so infamous and unknown that many barely know either its 
name or its shape, not those who aspire to being Latinists, as they have 
no need of it, nor do the Germans, not even the schoolmasters, know what 
to do with it or how to call it; some call it we, [... others] call it 
uu, [...] the Swabians call it auwawau[4] 	”

In Middle High German (and possibly already in late Old High German), 
the West Germanic phoneme /w/ became realized as [v]; this is why, 
today, the German ⟨w⟩ represents that sound. There is no phonological 
distinction between [w] and [v] in contemporary German.


The French call "w" "double vé", or double "v"...


-- 
numerist at aquaporin4 dot com

On Wed, 31 Jan 2018 08:46:41 +0000, Andy Burns wrote:
>
> gtaxin wrote:
>
>> in AD MCMXCIX Adrian Thompson wrote:
>>
>>> Can anyone out there tell me why Windows uses Ctrl-V as a keyboard
>>> shortcut for Paste? >
>> V stands for Vipectus which is latin for paste> 
>
> So why don't we have Ctrl-S for cut? Where S stands for secare ...

I figured on many systems, including Linux but also CP/M (probably
MS-DOS?) Ctrl-S causes a scroll lock. While Ctrl-Q resumes scrolling.
-- 
Andreas
You know you are a redneck if
you're a lite beer drinker, because you start drinking when it gets light.

Andreas Kohlbach wrote:

> I figured on many systems, including Linux but also CP/M (probably
> MS-DOS?) Ctrl-S causes a scroll lock. While Ctrl-Q resumes scrolling.

XOFF and XON control codes.

On Wed, 31 Jan 2018 08:46:41 +0000, Andy Burns <use...@andyburns.uk>
wrote:

>gtaxin wrote:
>
>> in AD MCMXCIX Adrian Thompson wrote:
>>
>>> Can anyone out there tell me why Windows uses Ctrl-V as a keyboard 
>>> shortcut for Paste? >
>> V stands for Vipectus which is latin for paste> 
>
>So why don't we have Ctrl-S for cut? Where S stands for secare ...

     How about Ctrl-C for cut?

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

On Wed, 31 Jan 2018 22:46:30 -0800, Gene Wirchenko wrote:

> On Wed, 31 Jan 2018 08:46:41 +0000, Andy Burns <use...@andyburns.uk>
> wrote:
> 
>>gtaxin wrote:
>>
>>> in AD MCMXCIX Adrian Thompson wrote:
>>>
>>>> Can anyone out there tell me why Windows uses Ctrl-V as a keyboard
>>>> shortcut for Paste? >
>>> V stands for Vipectus which is latin for paste>
>>
>>So why don't we have Ctrl-S for cut? Where S stands for secare ...
> 
>      How about Ctrl-C for cut?

Ah, but X looks more like scissors...



-- 
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

On 01/02/2018 06:46, Gene Wirchenko wrote:
> On Wed, 31 Jan 2018 08:46:41 +0000, Andy Burns <use...@andyburns.uk>
> wrote:
> 
>> gtaxin wrote:
>>
>>> in AD MCMXCIX Adrian Thompson wrote:
>>>
>>>> Can anyone out there tell me why Windows uses Ctrl-V as a keyboard
>>>> shortcut for Paste? >
>>> V stands for Vipectus which is latin for paste>
>>
>> So why don't we have Ctrl-S for cut? Where S stands for secare ...
> 
>       How about Ctrl-C for cut?
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Gene Wirchenko
> 

May be Copy got their first.

Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> writes:
>On Wed, 31 Jan 2018 08:46:41 +0000, Andy Burns wrote:
>>
>> gtaxin wrote:
>>
>>> in AD MCMXCIX Adrian Thompson wrote:
>>>
>>>> Can anyone out there tell me why Windows uses Ctrl-V as a keyboard
>>>> shortcut for Paste? >
>>> V stands for Vipectus which is latin for paste> 
>>
>> So why don't we have Ctrl-S for cut? Where S stands for secare ...
>
>I figured on many systems, including Linux but also CP/M (probably
>MS-DOS?) Ctrl-S causes a scroll lock. While Ctrl-Q resumes scrolling.

CTRL-S was used back in the day on ASR-33's with unix to stop output.   Control Q
continues output.    Those functions live on today.

On Thu, 01 Feb 2018 14:38:11 +0000, Scott Lurndal wrote:

> Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> writes:
>>On Wed, 31 Jan 2018 08:46:41 +0000, Andy Burns wrote:
>>>
>>> gtaxin wrote:
>>>
>>>> in AD MCMXCIX Adrian Thompson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Can anyone out there tell me why Windows uses Ctrl-V as a keyboard
>>>>> shortcut for Paste? >
>>>> V stands for Vipectus which is latin for paste>
>>>
>>> So why don't we have Ctrl-S for cut? Where S stands for secare ...
>>
>>I figured on many systems, including Linux but also CP/M (probably
>>MS-DOS?) Ctrl-S causes a scroll lock. While Ctrl-Q resumes scrolling.
> 
> CTRL-S was used back in the day on ASR-33's with unix to stop output.  
> Control Q continues output.    Those functions live on today.

In fact, it lived long before UNIX. I'm pretty sure early DEC systems 
used it.



-- 
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

On Thu, 1 Feb 2018 10:48:03 +0000, Andrew Swallow wrote:
>
> On 01/02/2018 06:46, Gene Wirchenko wrote:
>> On Wed, 31 Jan 2018 08:46:41 +0000, Andy Burns <use...@andyburns.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> So why don't we have Ctrl-S for cut? Where S stands for secare ...
>>
>>       How about Ctrl-C for cut?
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> Gene Wirchenko
>>
>
> May be Copy got their first.

Suppose the aim was to have all keys close at the keyboard. a-z-x-c
(all-undo-cut-copy). But makes me wonder why "paste" usually has CTRL-p then.
-- 
Andreas
You know you are a redneck if
you ever financed a tattoo.

On Thu, 01 Feb 2018 14:38:11 GMT, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>
> Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> writes:
>>
>>I figured on many systems, including Linux but also CP/M (probably
>>MS-DOS?) Ctrl-S causes a scroll lock. While Ctrl-Q resumes scrolling.
>
> CTRL-S was used back in the day on ASR-33's with unix to stop output.   Control Q
> continues output.

It was also used by the printer to tell the OS to suspend sending data
until the latest chunk of data was printed.

> Those functions live on today.

Is there an application for this other than *legacy* today?
-- 
Andreas
You know you are a redneck if
you ever financed a tattoo.

Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> writes:

> On Thu, 01 Feb 2018 14:38:11 GMT, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>
>> Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> writes:
>>>
>>>I figured on many systems, including Linux but also CP/M (probably
>>>MS-DOS?) Ctrl-S causes a scroll lock. While Ctrl-Q resumes scrolling.
>>
>> CTRL-S was used back in the day on ASR-33's with unix to stop output.   Control Q
>> continues output.
>
> It was also used by the printer to tell the OS to suspend sending data
> until the latest chunk of data was printed.
>
>> Those functions live on today.
>
> Is there an application for this other than *legacy* today?

Linux terminal windows.

On Thu, 01 Feb 2018 15:58:37 -0700, Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
>
> Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> writes:
>
>> On Thu, 01 Feb 2018 14:38:11 GMT, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>
>>> CTRL-S was used back in the day on ASR-33's with unix to stop output.   Control Q
>>> continues output.
>>
>> It was also used by the printer to tell the OS to suspend sending data
>> until the latest chunk of data was printed.
>>
>>> Those functions live on today.
>>
>> Is there an application for this other than *legacy* today?
>
> Linux terminal windows.

Yes. But why? For example printers today don't need XOFF anymore. Linux
uses CUPS and once you fired up a print job CUPS itself talks to the
printer. No need for XOFF there.

If you list something on a TTY you can usually use PG-UP to see what on
top outside the terminal's view area.
-- 
Andreas
You know you are a redneck if
you ever financed a tattoo.

In article <fdhg5aF...@mid.individual.net>,
Bob Eager  <news...@eager.cx> wrote:
>> CTRL-S was used back in the day on ASR-33's with unix to stop output.  
>> Control Q continues output.    Those functions live on today.
>
>In fact, it lived long before UNIX. I'm pretty sure early DEC systems 
>used it.

It predates computers.  Those were used back on TWX lines.  The
obvious situation would have been when sending from an 8-level 100wpm
TWX to a 5-level 60 wpm Telex, but I don't remember whether they used
x-off or a hardware Restrain signal for that.

-- 
Regards,
John Levine, jo...@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

On Thursday, February 1, 2018 at 9:38:13 AM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:

> CTRL-S was used back in the day on ASR-33's with unix to stop output.   Control Q
> continues output.    Those functions live on today.

In timesharing days, the BREAK key on the Teletype was used to
stop output.  Some systems may have supported certain control
keys, but it varied by system.

Note that the BREAK key continued into the PC world, and to this
day still works to stop say a PC-DOS DIR listing.

On 2/1/2018 4:31 PM, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
> On Thu, 1 Feb 2018 10:48:03 +0000, Andrew Swallow wrote:
>>
>> On 01/02/2018 06:46, Gene Wirchenko wrote:
>>> On Wed, 31 Jan 2018 08:46:41 +0000, Andy Burns <use...@andyburns.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> So why don't we have Ctrl-S for cut? Where S stands for secare ...
>>>
>>>        How about Ctrl-C for cut?
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>>
>>> Gene Wirchenko
>>>
>>
>> May be Copy got their first.
> 
> Suppose the aim was to have all keys close at the keyboard. a-z-x-c
> (all-undo-cut-copy). But makes me wonder why "paste" usually has CTRL-p then.
> 
It does?

I just looked around on this Win machine... Thunderbird, Notepad, 
Notepad+ (also accepts shift-INS), LibreOffice, IrfanView, MSPaint, 
Adobe Premiere, Audacity, are all ctrl-V. Don't see anything at all 
that's ctrl-p. There are a couple of programs that won't accept a 
keyboard shortcut, but that's not what you're talking about. AFAIK my 
Linux machine downstairs (with some different software) is pretty much 
the same.

Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> writes:

> On Thu, 01 Feb 2018 15:58:37 -0700, Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
>>
>> Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> writes:
>>
>>> On Thu, 01 Feb 2018 14:38:11 GMT, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>>
>>>> CTRL-S was used back in the day on ASR-33's with unix to stop output.   Control Q
>>>> continues output.
>>>
>>> It was also used by the printer to tell the OS to suspend sending data
>>> until the latest chunk of data was printed.
>>>
>>>> Those functions live on today.
>>>
>>> Is there an application for this other than *legacy* today?
>>
>> Linux terminal windows.
>
> Yes. But why? For example printers today don't need XOFF anymore. Linux
> uses CUPS and once you fired up a print job CUPS itself talks to the
> printer. No need for XOFF there.
>
> If you list something on a TTY you can usually use PG-UP to see what on
> top outside the terminal's view area.

That wasn't the question.  The question wasn't "why is xon/xoff still
used" (to which the answer is there's no compelling reason to change
it); it was whether it was used for anything but legacy applications.

Note also that the buffer is finite; it's entirely possible to have the
top of a program's output no longer be available by the time it
finishes.

In article <55dcc214-7c87-437a...@googlegroups.com>,
 <hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>On Thursday, February 1, 2018 at 9:38:13 AM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>
>> CTRL-S was used back in the day on ASR-33's with unix to stop output.   Control Q
>> continues output.    Those functions live on today.
>
>In timesharing days, the BREAK key on the Teletype was used to
>stop output.  Some systems may have supported certain control
>keys, but it varied by system.

That depended on the hardware.  On full-duplex systems, Ctrl-S worked
fine.  On half-duplex, where the computer wasn't listening while it
was typing, break was the only thing the tty interface would notice.

Also note that Ctrl-S means pause, not stop.  When you type Ctrl-Q it picks
up where it left off.

-- 
Regards,
John Levine, jo...@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

On Thu, 1 Feb 2018 18:41:33 -0600, Dave Garland
<dave.g...@wizinfo.com> wrote:

>On 2/1/2018 4:31 PM, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>> On Thu, 1 Feb 2018 10:48:03 +0000, Andrew Swallow wrote:
>>>
>>> On 01/02/2018 06:46, Gene Wirchenko wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 31 Jan 2018 08:46:41 +0000, Andy Burns <use...@andyburns.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> So why don't we have Ctrl-S for cut? Where S stands for secare ...
>>>>
>>>>        How about Ctrl-C for cut?
>>>>
>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>
>>>> Gene Wirchenko
>>>>
>>>
>>> May be Copy got their first.
>> 
>> Suppose the aim was to have all keys close at the keyboard. a-z-x-c
>> (all-undo-cut-copy). But makes me wonder why "paste" usually has CTRL-p then.
>> 
>It does?
>
>I just looked around on this Win machine... Thunderbird, Notepad, 
>Notepad+ (also accepts shift-INS), LibreOffice, IrfanView, MSPaint, 
>Adobe Premiere, Audacity, are all ctrl-V. Don't see anything at all 
>that's ctrl-p. There are a couple of programs that won't accept a 
>keyboard shortcut, but that's not what you're talking about. AFAIK my 
>Linux machine downstairs (with some different software) is pretty much 
>the same.

Ctrl-P is print.

Joe Pfeiffer <pfei...@cs.nmsu.edu> writes:
>Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> writes:
>
>> On Thu, 01 Feb 2018 15:58:37 -0700, Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
>>>
>>> Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> writes:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 01 Feb 2018 14:38:11 GMT, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> CTRL-S was used back in the day on ASR-33's with unix to stop output.   Control Q
>>>>> continues output.
>>>>
>>>> It was also used by the printer to tell the OS to suspend sending data
>>>> until the latest chunk of data was printed.
>>>>
>>>>> Those functions live on today.
>>>>
>>>> Is there an application for this other than *legacy* today?
>>>
>>> Linux terminal windows.
>>
>> Yes. But why? For example printers today don't need XOFF anymore. Linux
>> uses CUPS and once you fired up a print job CUPS itself talks to the
>> printer. No need for XOFF there.
>>
>> If you list something on a TTY you can usually use PG-UP to see what on
>> top outside the terminal's view area.
>
>That wasn't the question.  The question wasn't "why is xon/xoff still
>used" (to which the answer is there's no compelling reason to change
>it); it was whether it was used for anything but legacy applications.
>
>Note also that the buffer is finite; it's entirely possible to have the
>top of a program's output no longer be available by the time it
>finishes.

XOFF will put backpressure all the way back to the system call(s)
that write to the tty, so no program output is lost due to ^S.

Bob Eager wrote:
> On Thu, 01 Feb 2018 14:38:11 +0000, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>
>> Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> writes:
>>>On Wed, 31 Jan 2018 08:46:41 +0000, Andy Burns wrote:
>>>>
>>>> gtaxin wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> in AD MCMXCIX Adrian Thompson wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Can anyone out there tell me why Windows uses Ctrl-V as a keyboard
>>>>>> shortcut for Paste? >
>>>>> V stands for Vipectus which is latin for paste>
>>>>
>>>> So why don't we have Ctrl-S for cut? Where S stands for secare ...
>>>
>>>I figured on many systems, including Linux but also CP/M (probably
>>>MS-DOS?) Ctrl-S causes a scroll lock. While Ctrl-Q resumes scrolling.
>>
>> CTRL-S was used back in the day on ASR-33's with unix to stop output.
>> Control Q continues output.    Those functions live on today.
>
> In fact, it lived long before UNIX. I'm pretty sure early DEC systems
> used it.

They did.  Video terminals were really TTYs with no hard copy.  In addition,
<CTRL>O would continue the TTY output but not display it.

/BAH

JimP <solo...@gmail.com> writes:

> On Thu, 1 Feb 2018 18:41:33 -0600, Dave Garland
> <dave.g...@wizinfo.com> wrote:
>
>>On 2/1/2018 4:31 PM, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>>> On Thu, 1 Feb 2018 10:48:03 +0000, Andrew Swallow wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 01/02/2018 06:46, Gene Wirchenko wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 31 Jan 2018 08:46:41 +0000, Andy Burns <use...@andyburns.uk>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> So why don't we have Ctrl-S for cut? Where S stands for secare ...
>>>>>
>>>>>        How about Ctrl-C for cut?
>>>>>
>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>
>>>>> Gene Wirchenko
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> May be Copy got their first.
>>> 
>>> Suppose the aim was to have all keys close at the keyboard. a-z-x-c
>>> (all-undo-cut-copy). But makes me wonder why "paste" usually has CTRL-p then.
>>> 
>>It does?
>>
>>I just looked around on this Win machine... Thunderbird, Notepad, 
>>Notepad+ (also accepts shift-INS), LibreOffice, IrfanView, MSPaint, 
>>Adobe Premiere, Audacity, are all ctrl-V. Don't see anything at all 
>>that's ctrl-p. There are a couple of programs that won't accept a 
>>keyboard shortcut, but that's not what you're talking about. AFAIK my 
>>Linux machine downstairs (with some different software) is pretty much 
>>the same.
>
> Ctrl-P is print.

Ctrl-P is "go up a line" in all properly designed text editors.

On Thu, 1 Feb 2018 18:41:33 -0600, Dave Garland wrote:
>
> On 2/1/2018 4:31 PM, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>>
>> Suppose the aim was to have all keys close at the keyboard. a-z-x-c
>> (all-undo-cut-copy). But makes me wonder why "paste" usually has CTRL-p then.
>>
> It does?

Oops, no. What is wrong with me? :-( CTRL-v of course. Which then also
happens to be next to a-z-x-c.
-- 
Andreas
You know you are a redneck if
an expired license plate means another decoration for your living room wall.

On Fri, 02 Feb 2018 11:49:59 -0700, Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
>
> JimP <solo...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Ctrl-P is print.
>
> Ctrl-P is "go up a line" in all properly designed text editors.

Nah, up is CTRL-E. All hail the mighty WordStar Diamond. ;-)
-- 
Andreas
You know you are a redneck if
an expired license plate means another decoration for your living room wall.

On Fri, 02 Feb 2018 11:49:59 -0700, Joe Pfeiffer wrote:

> JimP <solo...@gmail.com> writes:
> 
>> On Thu, 1 Feb 2018 18:41:33 -0600, Dave Garland
>> <dave.g...@wizinfo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On 2/1/2018 4:31 PM, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 1 Feb 2018 10:48:03 +0000, Andrew Swallow wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On 01/02/2018 06:46, Gene Wirchenko wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 31 Jan 2018 08:46:41 +0000, Andy Burns
>>>>>> <use...@andyburns.uk>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So why don't we have Ctrl-S for cut? Where S stands for secare ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>        How about Ctrl-C for cut?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Gene Wirchenko
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> May be Copy got their first.
>>>> 
>>>> Suppose the aim was to have all keys close at the keyboard. a-z-x-c
>>>> (all-undo-cut-copy). But makes me wonder why "paste" usually has
>>>> CTRL-p then.
>>>> 
>>>It does?
>>>
>>>I just looked around on this Win machine... Thunderbird, Notepad,
>>>Notepad+ (also accepts shift-INS), LibreOffice, IrfanView, MSPaint,
>>>Adobe Premiere, Audacity, are all ctrl-V. Don't see anything at all
>>>that's ctrl-p. There are a couple of programs that won't accept a
>>>keyboard shortcut, but that's not what you're talking about. AFAIK my
>>>Linux machine downstairs (with some different software) is pretty much
>>>the same.
>>
>> Ctrl-P is print.
> 
> Ctrl-P is "go up a line" in all properly designed text editors.

+1

-- 
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

On 2/2/2018 2:23 PM, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
> On Fri, 02 Feb 2018 11:49:59 -0700, Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
>>
>> JimP <solo...@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> Ctrl-P is print.
>>
>> Ctrl-P is "go up a line" in all properly designed text editors.
> 
> Nah, up is CTRL-E. All hail the mighty WordStar Diamond. ;-)
> 

In vi/vim, ctrl-e moves the text displayed *up* a line, but leaves the 
cursor on the same line and character position.  Ctrl-y moves the text 
displayed *down* a line while leaving the cursor on the same line and 
character position. The cursor only changes lines when the cursor abuts 
the top or bottom of the screen.

-- 
numerist at aquaporin4 dot com

On 2 Feb 2018 22:28:37 GMT, Bob Eager <news...@eager.cx> wrote:

>On Fri, 02 Feb 2018 11:49:59 -0700, Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
>
>> JimP <solo...@gmail.com> writes:
>> 
>>> On Thu, 1 Feb 2018 18:41:33 -0600, Dave Garland
>>> <dave.g...@wizinfo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On 2/1/2018 4:31 PM, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 1 Feb 2018 10:48:03 +0000, Andrew Swallow wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 01/02/2018 06:46, Gene Wirchenko wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wed, 31 Jan 2018 08:46:41 +0000, Andy Burns
>>>>>>> <use...@andyburns.uk>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So why don't we have Ctrl-S for cut? Where S stands for secare ...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>        How about Ctrl-C for cut?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Gene Wirchenko
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> May be Copy got their first.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Suppose the aim was to have all keys close at the keyboard. a-z-x-c
>>>>> (all-undo-cut-copy). But makes me wonder why "paste" usually has
>>>>> CTRL-p then.
>>>>> 
>>>>It does?
>>>>
>>>>I just looked around on this Win machine... Thunderbird, Notepad,
>>>>Notepad+ (also accepts shift-INS), LibreOffice, IrfanView, MSPaint,
>>>>Adobe Premiere, Audacity, are all ctrl-V. Don't see anything at all
>>>>that's ctrl-p. There are a couple of programs that won't accept a
>>>>keyboard shortcut, but that's not what you're talking about. AFAIK my
>>>>Linux machine downstairs (with some different software) is pretty much
>>>>the same.
>>>
>>> Ctrl-P is print.
>> 
>> Ctrl-P is "go up a line" in all properly designed text editors.
>
>+1

Didn't I say it was print in Windows software ? If not, I made a
misstep.

scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes:

> Joe Pfeiffer <pfei...@cs.nmsu.edu> writes:
>> Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> writes:
>> 
>>>  On Thu, 01 Feb 2018 15:58:37 -0700, Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>  Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> writes:
>>>> 
>>>>>  On Thu, 01 Feb 2018 14:38:11 GMT, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> CTRL-S was used back in the day on ASR-33's with unix to stop output.   Control Q
>>>>>> continues output.
>>>>> 
>>>>>  It was also used by the printer to tell the OS to suspend sending data
>>>>>  until the latest chunk of data was printed.
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Those functions live on today.
>>>>> 
>>>>>  Is there an application for this other than *legacy* today?
>>>> 
>>>>  Linux terminal windows.
>>> 
>>>  Yes. But why? For example printers today don't need XOFF anymore. Linux
>>>  uses CUPS and once you fired up a print job CUPS itself talks to the
>>>  printer. No need for XOFF there.
>>> 
>>>  If you list something on a TTY you can usually use PG-UP to see what on
>>>  top outside the terminal's view area.
>> 
>> That wasn't the question.  The question wasn't "why is xon/xoff still
>> used" (to which the answer is there's no compelling reason to change
>> it); it was whether it was used for anything but legacy applications.
>> 
>> Note also that the buffer is finite; it's entirely possible to have the
>> top of a program's output no longer be available by the time it
>> finishes.
> 
> XOFF will put backpressure all the way back to the system call(s)
> that write to the tty, so no program output is lost due to ^S.

Not true in a network-attached terminal environment.  The EtherTIPs at Stanford
buffered far more than a 24-line screen on an H19/Z19 could hold, so ^S was
entirely useless unless your terminal was connected directly to a DEC-20.  By
1984, none of them were.

-- 
Rich Alderson					  ne...@alderson.users.panix.com
      Audendum est, et veritas investiganda; quam etiamsi non assequamur,
	  omnino tamen proprius, quam nunc sumus, ad eam perveniemus.
									--Galen

On 01/02/2018 22:33, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
> On Thu, 01 Feb 2018 14:38:11 GMT, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>
>> Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> writes:
>>>
>>> I figured on many systems, including Linux but also CP/M (probably
>>> MS-DOS?) Ctrl-S causes a scroll lock. While Ctrl-Q resumes scrolling.
>>
>> CTRL-S was used back in the day on ASR-33's with unix to stop output.   Control Q
>> continues output.
> 
> It was also used by the printer to tell the OS to suspend sending data
> until the latest chunk of data was printed.
> 
>> Those functions live on today.
> 
> Is there an application for this other than *legacy* today?
> 

I used to use it on visual display units to give men time to read the page.

On 02/02/2018 00:41, Dave Garland wrote:
> On 2/1/2018 4:31 PM, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>> On Thu, 1 Feb 2018 10:48:03 +0000, Andrew Swallow wrote:
>>>
>>> On 01/02/2018 06:46, Gene Wirchenko wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 31 Jan 2018 08:46:41 +0000, Andy Burns <use...@andyburns.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> So why don't we have Ctrl-S for cut? Where S stands for secare ...
>>>>
>>>>        How about Ctrl-C for cut?
>>>>
>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>
>>>> Gene Wirchenko
>>>>
>>>
>>> May be Copy got their first.
>>
>> Suppose the aim was to have all keys close at the keyboard. a-z-x-c
>> (all-undo-cut-copy). But makes me wonder why "paste" usually has 
>> CTRL-p then.
>>
> It does?
> 
> I just looked around on this Win machine... Thunderbird, Notepad, 
> Notepad+ (also accepts shift-INS), LibreOffice, IrfanView, MSPaint, 
> Adobe Premiere, Audacity, are all ctrl-V. Don't see anything at all 
> that's ctrl-p. There are a couple of programs that won't accept a 
> keyboard shortcut, but that's not what you're talking about. AFAIK my 
> Linux machine downstairs (with some different software) is pretty much 
> the same.

Ctrl-p was the short cut for Print

On Fri, 02 Feb 2018 11:49:59 -0700, Joe Pfeiffer
<pfei...@cs.nmsu.edu> wrote:

[snip]

>Ctrl-P is "go up a line" in all properly designed text editors.

     Would that include text editors running on systems with keyboards
that do not have Ctrl-P (as in, for example, a Cyrillic keyboard), or
is there a limit to your bigotry?

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

Gene Wirchenko <ge...@telus.net> writes:

> On Fri, 02 Feb 2018 11:49:59 -0700, Joe Pfeiffer
> <pfei...@cs.nmsu.edu> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>>Ctrl-P is "go up a line" in all properly designed text editors.
>
>      Would that include text editors running on systems with keyboards
> that do not have Ctrl-P (as in, for example, a Cyrillic keyboard), or
> is there a limit to your bigotry?

I'm sure (without actually checking) there was a port of Emacs to
Cyrillic keyboards, with an equivalent binding.

On Sat, 03 Feb 2018 20:51:11 -0700, Joe Pfeiffer
<pfei...@cs.nmsu.edu> wrote:

>Gene Wirchenko <ge...@telus.net> writes:
>
>> On Fri, 02 Feb 2018 11:49:59 -0700, Joe Pfeiffer
>> <pfei...@cs.nmsu.edu> wrote:
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>>Ctrl-P is "go up a line" in all properly designed text editors.
>>
>>      Would that include text editors running on systems with keyboards
>> that do not have Ctrl-P (as in, for example, a Cyrillic keyboard), or
>> is there a limit to your bigotry?
>
>I'm sure (without actually checking) there was a port of Emacs to
>Cyrillic keyboards, with an equivalent binding.

     And other editors have an equivalent binding.  For example,
WordStar has Ctrl-E.

Sincerely,

Gene  Wirchenko