🚀 go-pugleaf

Woo this brings back some memories!

Alla those wireframed ships, hundreds of worlds to travel
to, etc etc. Things like sticking the engine at the front
of the ship and all the dangerous stuff sharing space with
the bridge and crew quarters at the rear. 

I had great hopes for this game but after playing it for a
while, well.

If you want something that is really, really close
look at Elite 2, and Elite: First Encounters. And if you say
those games suck, you're right. But they're the very closest
I can think of to Universe.

-- 
Tan Teck Weng   --   It`s tragic how families are torn apart 
2nd Year Arts   --     by simple things, like wild animals.
Melbourne Uni   --
http://tamboon.ecr.mu.OZ.AU/~twtan

Hahah!  Right Now I use the old binder For Universe to hold all of my role 
playing materials...  I didn't think anyone had ever played this game.  It 
was such a pain in the rear..  All that switching disks and all heh...

On 6 Oct 1996 20:05:15 GMT, a...@unlinfo.unl.edu (Andy Frederick) wrote:

>Anyway, can anyone tell me if there is a game currently on the shelves
>that comes anywhere close to the flavor of Universe?

Not that I know of. I played Omnitrend's `Universe 2' on the Atari. At
the time, it cost over 70 pounds (ie, about 120 dollars) to buy the game
so I hired it from a software library. Alas one of the disks was bad and
I didn't get very far. I bought Universe3, but that was a RPG similar to
the earlier Ultima games and I wasn't very impressed.

I'd certainly be interested in a copy of Universe2 if anyone's got one
to sell.
-- 
Chris Yearsley
Ch...@pandion.u-net.com

Hi

> Anyway, can anyone tell me if there is a game currently on the shelves
> that comes anywhere close to the flavor of Universe?

Sounds a bit Elite-like. Privateer 2 is coming out in a few weeks (we
sincerely hope) and that looks like it's going to be the new standard for
space combat and trading games.

I have Universe III, which was a fairly standard space RPG, for the PC on
5.25 disks somewhere (w. box and manuals) It doesn't sound as good though.
> 
> I guess what I'm looking for is a game that has a lot of depth to it 
> -- not one of those "go to a planet and buy some stuff, go to another 
> planet and sell some stuff" games.  I want the feeling of exploration,
> I want to encounter alien races, I want to solve mysteries, I want to 
> amass fortunes, I want to blow things up, 

Star Control II? It has everything you've mentioned and is one of the top
ten games of all time IMHO.

> (There was some other game I played
> where you could carry spare parts with you, and you could pop them into
> your engine to repair damage, and some of the parts could be used for
> different things, so even if you didn't have any spares, you could
> always rearrange what you did have so that if engines were more
> important to you than your weapons, you could swap a damaged engine
> part for a functioning weapons part.  

Sounds like LightSpeed or HyperSpeed from Microprose. The swapping parts
around really just had the same effect as Star Trek style power
distribution, but it was definitely more cool. 

My reccomendation is Star Control II, based on what you've said - it's
marvellous, and you might find it cheap on some dealer's back-catalogue.

Will

In article <5393dr$6...@crcnis3.unl.edu>,
Andy Frederick <a...@unlinfo.unl.edu> wrote:
>Now, we're talking 12 years ago, and I only played the game for a 
>short time, but the things I can recall about it that I liked so much 
>are:  You could design your own ship, decide what went where, and 
>damage to your ship was "realistic" -- if the front section of your 
>ship was damaged, then things you put in the front would be affected.  
>As for the actual gameplay, I believe it was one of those things where
>you pretty much got to decide what you wanted your role to be in the 
>grand scheme of things -- you could be a pirate, or a trader, or 
>whatever.
>
>I guess what I'm looking for is a game that has a lot of depth to it 
>-- not one of those "go to a planet and buy some stuff, go to another 
>planet and sell some stuff" games.  I want the feeling of exploration,
>I want to encounter alien races, I want to solve mysteries, I want to 
>amass fortunes, I want to blow things up, and I want control over my
>destiny.  I have to admit, the thing I most liked about Universe was
>being able to design my own ship.  (There was some other game I played

The closest thing I've found that resembles this is Star
Control 2.  You customize the flagship according to what you
want to do with it, you can treat the aliens any way you like
and still be able to win (though it can get pretty hard), and
there very definitely is the epic, explore-the-galaxy feel to
it.  And the music has never been equalled.

Of course, it is about 4 years old, and Star Control 3 is but 
a pale shadow of 2's glory ... a thousand curses on Accolade 
for getting Legend to do it, and a thousand more on Legend for 
screwing it up ...

Kent Peterson

"Will Vale" <wi...@lightwork.co.uk> wrote:

>> Anyway, can anyone tell me if there is a game currently on the shelves
>> that comes anywhere close to the flavor of Universe?

The last game that came anywhere close to Universe probably was
Starflight.  Star Control 2 was as fun, too.  I still remember that
lil beat up Tiger guy.  He was so tuff!

On 7 Oct 1996, Will Vale wrote:

> > (There was some other game I played
> > where you could carry spare parts with you, and you could pop them into
> > your engine to repair damage, and some of the parts could be used for
> > different things, so even if you didn't have any spares, you could
> > always rearrange what you did have so that if engines were more
> > important to you than your weapons, you could swap a damaged engine
> > part for a functioning weapons part.  
> 
> Sounds like LightSpeed or HyperSpeed from Microprose. The swapping parts

Actually, I think the game was called SunDog, which ran on the Apple II, 
and was truly awesome for its time. Written by a guy named Bruce Webster, 
who has a book out called "Pitfalls of Object-Oriented Development" in 
which he talks about the development of that game.

Ah, the good old days.

Tom

In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.961011...@hgc.edu>,
   Tom Fulton <ful...@hgc.edu> wrote:
>On 7 Oct 1996, Will Vale wrote:
>
>> > (There was some other game I played
>> > where you could carry spare parts with you, and you could pop them into
>> > your engine to repair damage, and some of the parts could be used for
>> > different things, so even if you didn't have any spares, you could
>> > always rearrange what you did have so that if engines were more
>> > important to you than your weapons, you could swap a damaged engine
>> > part for a functioning weapons part.  
>> 
>> Sounds like LightSpeed or HyperSpeed from Microprose. The swapping parts
>
>Actually, I think the game was called SunDog, which ran on the Apple II, 
>and was truly awesome for its time. Written by a guy named Bruce Webster, 
>who has a book out called "Pitfalls of Object-Oriented Development" in 
>which he talks about the development of that game.
>
>Ah, the good old days.
>
>Tom

Yup, "Sundog: Frozen Legacy" if I remember correctly.  First computer game I 
ever bought, got it along with my Apple IIC way back in 19-something-or-other. 
Excellent game, still kick myself for giving it away a few years ago to the 
guy I sold my Apple to...

Craig

Tom Fulton (ful...@hgc.edu) wrote:
: On 7 Oct 1996, Will Vale wrote:

: > > where you could carry spare parts with you, and you could pop them into
: > > your engine to repair damage, and some of the parts could be used for
: > > different things, so even if you didn't have any spares, you could
: > > always rearrange what you did have so that if engines were more
: > > important to you than your weapons, you could swap a damaged engine
: > > part for a functioning weapons part.  

: Actually, I think the game was called SunDog, which ran on the Apple II, 
: and was truly awesome for its time. Written by a guy named Bruce Webster, 

The game was written by FTL Software, and I believe it debuted on the 
Atari ST.  It was one of the first games I bought fot it - it was truly 
awesome for the time.  Very much like Privateer - you traded, explored 
planets, got robbed ont he street, used teleporters, went to the bank, 
flew in space, hyperjumped, and had dogfights.  VERY cool.  

James
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
James & Susan Parker                         Living in Paradise....
park...@lava.net                            http://www.lava.net/~parker30   
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

>The game was written by FTL Software, and I believe it debuted on the 
>Atari ST.  It was one of the first games I bought fot it - it was truly 
>awesome for the time.  Very much like Privateer - you traded, explored 
>planets, got robbed ont he street, used teleporters, went to the bank, 
>flew in space, hyperjumped, and had dogfights.  VERY cool.  
>

The game was out on the Atari ST, and that was the best version.  However it 
was originally on the Apple II.  I know, I have it.

It's amazing how great that game was compared to the flashy junk that's
been coming out lately. 

Tom



[Snipped]

> : Actually, I think the game was called SunDog, which ran on the Apple II,
> : and was truly awesome for its time. Written by a guy named Bruce Webster,
> 
> The game was written by FTL Software, and I believe it debuted on the
> Atari ST.  It was one of the first games I bought fot it - it was truly
> awesome for the time.  Very much like Privateer - you traded, explored
> planets, got robbed ont he street, used teleporters, went to the bank,
> flew in space, hyperjumped, and had dogfights.  VERY cool.
> 
> James
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> James & Susan Parker                         Living in Paradise....
> park...@lava.net                            http://www.lava.net/~parker30
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tom Harrigan wrote:
> 
> It's amazing how great that game was compared to the flashy junk that's
> been coming out lately.
>
> [Snipped]
> 
> > : Actually, I think the game was called SunDog, which ran on the Apple II,
> > : and was truly awesome for its time. Written by a guy named Bruce Webster,
> >
> > The game was written by FTL Software, and I believe it debuted on the
> > Atari ST.  It was one of the first games I bought fot it - it was truly
> > awesome for the time.  Very much like Privateer - you traded, explored
> > planets, got robbed ont he street, used teleporters, went to the bank,
> > flew in space, hyperjumped, and had dogfights.  VERY cool.

Thanks for the kind words, one and all. After some 22 years of 
software engineering and other activities, I still remain proudest of 
SunDog: Frozen Legacy, and it means a lot that others still think fondly
of it. :-) 

A few additions, corrections, and trivia:

-- Wayne Holder was co-designer of the game and still (to my knowledge) 
   runs FTL Games in San Diego. 

-- SunDog first came out on the Apple II and was released at the West 
   Coast Computer Faire in March, 1984. It was written in Apple Pascal
   (roughly 15,000 lines) and 6502 assembly (roughly 5000 lines). I
   did about 95% of the coding for version 1.0 and 90% for version
   2.0 (shipped October 1984). It came on a double-sided floppy (280KB
   storage) that you had to manually remove and flip over, and ran in 
   64KB of RAM. 

-- I wrote the graphics library from scratch; it supported multiple
   overlapping windows, drag-and-drop icons, and joystick control
   (we were heavily influenced by Apple's Lisa computer, the precursor
   to the Macintosh). I also developed tools for editing icons, fonts, 
   and maps. I even wrote a p-code/6502 disassembler so that
   we could hack the p-code interpreter. 

-- The Atari ST version--which had graphics and animation I could only
   dream about--was done by Doug Bell, Mike Newton, and Andy Jaros,
again
   with contributions from Wayne. It came out (I believe) in late 1985
or
   early 1986. FTL's big success, though, was DungeonMaster. 

-- The subtitle (Frozen Legacy) was a play on words, referring both to
   the fact that you couldn't get clear title to your inherited starship
   until you fulfilled your late uncle's contract and to the fact that
   fulfilling that contract involved finding and transporting
cryogenically
   stored colonists. 

-- SunDog was to be a trilogy. The second game (SunDog: Old Scores to
Settle)
   was to deal with finding out why your uncle died and was advertised
in the
   game credits. The third game would deal with the political
ramifications of
   what you discovered. 

-- SunDog wasn't the game we originally set out to develop. We started
   out doing the computer version of a solitare SF RPG called Star
Smuggler
   from DwarfStar Games (a division of Heritage USA). Two months into
the
   project, Heritage went into bankruptcy--before we had finalized the
   rights. So we had to throw out all that work and start from scratch
   with a brand new game design that wouldn't infringe on Star Smuggler. 

-- SunDog was actually set in the game universe of an SF RPG that I was
   developing before I started work at FTL Games and continued work on
   while at FTL. I had generated four sectors of systems, with names for 
   each system and tech levels, law levels, wealth levels, and names for 
   each planet. We used one of those sectors for SunDog and would have 
   expanded to the others for the sequels. A few of the planet/system
   names were anagrams of company and personal names. 

-- I left FTL Games in October of 1984, a week after SunDog 2.0 was
released.
   I was so burned out that I did not do professional software
development again
   until four years later, when I took a contract position at Apple
Computer. 
   I was fortunate to be able to support myself with writing and
teaching in
   the meantime. 

Probably more than y'all wanted to know, but there it is. I keep
swearing that
I'm going to do a modern version of SunDog someday, but I'm not sure if
that'll
happen. Ah, well...thanks again for the kind words.  ..bruce..

--------------------------------------
bruce f. webster | bweb...@bfwa.com |
Bruce F. Webster and Associates, Inc.|
    http://www.bfwa.com/~bwebster    |
--------------------------------------

Bruce F. Webster wrote:
> 
> Tom Harrigan wrote:
> >
> > It's amazing how great that game was compared to the flashy junk that's
> > been coming out lately.
> >
> > [Snipped]
> >
> > > : Actually, I think the game was called SunDog, which ran on the Apple II,
> > > : and was truly awesome for its time. Written by a guy named Bruce Webster,
> > >
> > > The game was written by FTL Software, and I believe it debuted on the
> > > Atari ST.  It was one of the first games I bought fot it - it was truly
> > > awesome for the time.  Very much like Privateer - you traded, explored
> > > planets, got robbed ont he street, used teleporters, went to the bank,
> > > flew in space, hyperjumped, and had dogfights.  VERY cool.
> 
> Thanks for the kind words, one and all. After some 22 years of
> software engineering and other activities, I still remain proudest of
> SunDog: Frozen Legacy, and it means a lot that others still think fondly
> of it. :-)
> 
> A few additions, corrections, and trivia:
> 
> -- Wayne Holder was co-designer of the game and still (to my knowledge)
>    runs FTL Games in San Diego.
> 
> -- SunDog first came out on the Apple II and was released at the West
>    Coast Computer Faire in March, 1984. It was written in Apple Pascal
>    (roughly 15,000 lines) and 6502 assembly (roughly 5000 lines). I
>    did about 95% of the coding for version 1.0 and 90% for version
>    2.0 (shipped October 1984). It came on a double-sided floppy (280KB
>    storage) that you had to manually remove and flip over, and ran in
>    64KB of RAM.
> 
> -- I wrote the graphics library from scratch; it supported multiple
>    overlapping windows, drag-and-drop icons, and joystick control
>    (we were heavily influenced by Apple's Lisa computer, the precursor
>    to the Macintosh). I also developed tools for editing icons, fonts,
>    and maps. I even wrote a p-code/6502 disassembler so that
>    we could hack the p-code interpreter.
> 
> -- The Atari ST version--which had graphics and animation I could only
>    dream about--was done by Doug Bell, Mike Newton, and Andy Jaros,
> again
>    with contributions from Wayne. It came out (I believe) in late 1985
> or
>    early 1986. FTL's big success, though, was DungeonMaster.
> 
> -- The subtitle (Frozen Legacy) was a play on words, referring both to
>    the fact that you couldn't get clear title to your inherited starship
>    until you fulfilled your late uncle's contract and to the fact that
>    fulfilling that contract involved finding and transporting
> cryogenically
>    stored colonists.
> 
> -- SunDog was to be a trilogy. The second game (SunDog: Old Scores to
> Settle)
>    was to deal with finding out why your uncle died and was advertised
> in the
>    game credits. The third game would deal with the political
> ramifications of
>    what you discovered.
> 
> -- SunDog wasn't the game we originally set out to develop. We started
>    out doing the computer version of a solitare SF RPG called Star
> Smuggler
>    from DwarfStar Games (a division of Heritage USA). Two months into
> the
>    project, Heritage went into bankruptcy--before we had finalized the
>    rights. So we had to throw out all that work and start from scratch
>    with a brand new game design that wouldn't infringe on Star Smuggler.
> 
> -- SunDog was actually set in the game universe of an SF RPG that I was
>    developing before I started work at FTL Games and continued work on
>    while at FTL. I had generated four sectors of systems, with names for
>    each system and tech levels, law levels, wealth levels, and names for
>    each planet. We used one of those sectors for SunDog and would have
>    expanded to the others for the sequels. A few of the planet/system
>    names were anagrams of company and personal names.
> 
> -- I left FTL Games in October of 1984, a week after SunDog 2.0 was
> released.
>    I was so burned out that I did not do professional software
> development again
>    until four years later, when I took a contract position at Apple
> Computer.
>    I was fortunate to be able to support myself with writing and
> teaching in
>    the meantime.
> 
> Probably more than y'all wanted to know, but there it is. I keep
> swearing that
> I'm going to do a modern version of SunDog someday, but I'm not sure if
> that'll
> happen. Ah, well...thanks again for the kind words.  ..bruce..
> 
> --------------------------------------
> bruce f. webster | bweb...@bfwa.com |
> Bruce F. Webster and Associates, Inc.|
>     http://www.bfwa.com/~bwebster    |
> --------------------------------------

Bruce,

 Wow thanks for the flash back..... I can honestly say that I have always felt that 
sundog was/is one of the best games I ever played. Too bad a sequal was never made, I 
spent many a late night on that game. I've been thinking that maybe its because I am 
getting older now but I rarely if ever stay up late playing games anymore. Seems that 
the flashier a game gets the less I play. Maybe someday you can put out sundog 2 for the 
Ibm... I would buy it. You could even update a few things on the first sundog and 
re-release it... I would still buy it. Battlecruiser 3000 is a game I was hoping would 
rekindle the ol' space fire like Sundog and the first wing-commander game 
did (wing-commander is another game that really hasnt got any better due to added 
graphics.) If you ever need any help and you decide to look into Sundog 2.... write me. 
I am sure there are plenty of us semi-old timers in gaming that would love to help out.

-Brian

Interesting this turned into a Sundog dialog. (which was also a good game
in it's day)  But, I think I remember Omnitrend's Universe and it was a
different game alltogether.  Came with a 3 ring binder and about 4 disks
Ran on the Apple II +.  It was pretty cool as I remember.  Amazing
documentation.

Dale 

Brian Johnson <b...@wolfenet.com> wrote in article
<326D78...@wolfenet.com>...
> Bruce F. Webster wrote:
> > 
> > Tom Harrigan wrote:
> > >
> > > It's amazing how great that game was compared to the flashy junk
that's
> > > been coming out lately.
> > >
> > > [Snipped]
> > >
> > > > : Actually, I think the game was called SunDog, which ran on the
Apple II,
> > > > : and was truly awesome for its time. Written by a guy named Bruce
Webster,
> > > >
> > > > The game was written by FTL Software, and I believe it debuted on
the
> > > > Atari ST.  It was one of the first games I bought fot it - it was
truly
> > > > awesome for the time.  Very much like Privateer - you traded,
explored
> > > > planets, got robbed ont he street, used teleporters, went to the
bank,
> > > > flew in space, hyperjumped, and had dogfights.  VERY cool.
> > 
> > Thanks for the kind words, one and all. After some 22 years of
> > software engineering and other activities, I still remain proudest of
> > SunDog: Frozen Legacy, and it means a lot that others still think
fondly
> > of it. :-)
> > 
> > A few additions, corrections, and trivia:
> > 
> > -- Wayne Holder was co-designer of the game and still (to my knowledge)
> >    runs FTL Games in San Diego.
> > 
> > -- SunDog first came out on the Apple II and was released at the West
> >    Coast Computer Faire in March, 1984. It was written in Apple Pascal
> >    (roughly 15,000 lines) and 6502 assembly (roughly 5000 lines). I
> >    did about 95% of the coding for version 1.0 and 90% for version
> >    2.0 (shipped October 1984). It came on a double-sided floppy (280KB
> >    storage) that you had to manually remove and flip over, and ran in
> >    64KB of RAM.
> > 
> > -- I wrote the graphics library from scratch; it supported multiple
> >    overlapping windows, drag-and-drop icons, and joystick control
> >    (we were heavily influenced by Apple's Lisa computer, the precursor
> >    to the Macintosh). I also developed tools for editing icons, fonts,
> >    and maps. I even wrote a p-code/6502 disassembler so that
> >    we could hack the p-code interpreter.
> > 
> > -- The Atari ST version--which had graphics and animation I could only
> >    dream about--was done by Doug Bell, Mike Newton, and Andy Jaros,
> > again
> >    with contributions from Wayne. It came out (I believe) in late 1985
> > or
> >    early 1986. FTL's big success, though, was DungeonMaster.
> > 
> > -- The subtitle (Frozen Legacy) was a play on words, referring both to
> >    the fact that you couldn't get clear title to your inherited
starship
> >    until you fulfilled your late uncle's contract and to the fact that
> >    fulfilling that contract involved finding and transporting
> > cryogenically
> >    stored colonists.
> > 
> > -- SunDog was to be a trilogy. The second game (SunDog: Old Scores to
> > Settle)
> >    was to deal with finding out why your uncle died and was advertised
> > in the
> >    game credits. The third game would deal with the political
> > ramifications of
> >    what you discovered.
> > 
> > -- SunDog wasn't the game we originally set out to develop. We started
> >    out doing the computer version of a solitare SF RPG called Star
> > Smuggler
> >    from DwarfStar Games (a division of Heritage USA). Two months into
> > the
> >    project, Heritage went into bankruptcy--before we had finalized the
> >    rights. So we had to throw out all that work and start from scratch
> >    with a brand new game design that wouldn't infringe on Star
Smuggler.
> > 
> > -- SunDog was actually set in the game universe of an SF RPG that I was
> >    developing before I started work at FTL Games and continued work on
> >    while at FTL. I had generated four sectors of systems, with names
for
> >    each system and tech levels, law levels, wealth levels, and names
for
> >    each planet. We used one of those sectors for SunDog and would have
> >    expanded to the others for the sequels. A few of the planet/system
> >    names were anagrams of company and personal names.
> > 
> > -- I left FTL Games in October of 1984, a week after SunDog 2.0 was
> > released.
> >    I was so burned out that I did not do professional software
> > development again
> >    until four years later, when I took a contract position at Apple
> > Computer.
> >    I was fortunate to be able to support myself with writing and
> > teaching in
> >    the meantime.
> > 
> > Probably more than y'all wanted to know, but there it is. I keep
> > swearing that
> > I'm going to do a modern version of SunDog someday, but I'm not sure if
> > that'll
> > happen. Ah, well...thanks again for the kind words.  ..bruce..
> > 
> > --------------------------------------
> > bruce f. webster | bweb...@bfwa.com |
> > Bruce F. Webster and Associates, Inc.|
> >     http://www.bfwa.com/~bwebster    |
> > --------------------------------------
> 
> Bruce,
> 
>  Wow thanks for the flash back..... I can honestly say that I have always
felt that 
> sundog was/is one of the best games I ever played. Too bad a sequal was
never made, I 
> spent many a late night on that game. I've been thinking that maybe its
because I am 
> getting older now but I rarely if ever stay up late playing games
anymore. Seems that 
> the flashier a game gets the less I play. Maybe someday you can put out
sundog 2 for the 
> Ibm... I would buy it. You could even update a few things on the first
sundog and 
> re-release it... I would still buy it. Battlecruiser 3000 is a game I was
hoping would 
> rekindle the ol' space fire like Sundog and the first wing-commander game

> did (wing-commander is another game that really hasnt got any better due
to added 
> graphics.) If you ever need any help and you decide to look into Sundog
2.... write me. 
> I am sure there are plenty of us semi-old timers in gaming that would
love to help out.
> 
> -Brian
> 

Bruce F. Webster wrote:
> 

> Probably more than y'all wanted to know, but there it is. I keep
> swearing that
> I'm going to do a modern version of SunDog someday, but I'm not sure if
> that'll
> happen. Ah, well...thanks again for the kind words.  ..bruce..

I am not worthy!

I am not worthy!

Thanks for yet another reminder why I constantly fight the
battle against Texture-Mapped 3D fighting Hell...

Scott Le Grand
Head Coder
4Play 
"It's the gameplay, stupid..."

> : Actually, I think the game was called SunDog, which ran on the Apple II,
> : and was truly awesome for its time. Written by a guy named Bruce Webster,
>
>Thanks for the kind words, one and all. After some 22 years of 
>software engineering and other activities, I still remain proudest of 
>SunDog: Frozen Legacy, and it means a lot that others still think fondly
>of it. :-) 

SunDog!  I Loved That Game!!!

My friends and I played it nonstop for weeks on the ole Apple II.  We're
still waiting for the sequel to come out.  It was an alltime classic, one
of the best games ever.  Thanks Bruce for the memories...

Allen

Scott Le Grand wrote:
> 
> Bruce F. Webster wrote:
> >
> 
> > Probably more than y'all wanted to know, but there it is. 
> > ...thanks again for the kind words.  ..bruce..
> 
> Thanks for yet another reminder why I constantly fight the
> battle against Texture-Mapped 3D fighting Hell...
> 
> Scott Le Grand
> Head Coder
> 4Play
> "It's the gameplay, stupid..."

I must confess that I get a real kick out of the modern SFX in games. I
just about wept the first time I booted up The Hive, remembering what
the Apple II graphics in SunDog were like, and I told someone recently
that when I want to get in touch with my inner child, I boot up DOOM. 

That said, I haven't come across much out today that holds my attention
for any length of time. It is, of course, an easy cliche, and one common
in many fields, to pooh-pooh flashy technical advances and yearn for
'true art'...but that doesn't make it less true. 

_That_ said, the gameplay in SunDog had some major flaws (IMHO). It took
too long to complete the game, with too much repetition, and there
wasn't much in the way of plot or non-player characters--all things I
wanted to fix in Old Scores to Settle. But what I think hooked people on
SunDog--in spite of those flaws--was that Wayne and I wanted to build a
pocket universe that one person could kick around in. We wanted to avoid
what Wayne termed "railroad games" that kept you on a track from start
to finish. 

There are, of course, many games out that offer complex, rich universes
where you populate worlds, negotiate with other governments, and wage
vast wars. Ours was one person, wandering around, fending off muggers
and pirates, patching up critical systems, buying illegal components in
bars to customize your ship, and trying to keep some cash in the bank. I
think in retrospect that this is why folks still think of SunDog
fondly--there was a personal dimension and a freedom that were
appealing. 

Come to think of it, it's probably just as well there aren't many games
like that around--my personal and professional life would probably be
ruined. :-) But don't let that stop any one from trying. ..bruce..

--------------------------------------
bruce f. webster | bweb...@bfwa.com |
Bruce F. Webster and Associates, Inc.|
    http://www.bfwa.com/~bwebster    |
--------------------------------------

Bruce F. Webster wrote:
> 
> Scott Le Grand wrote:
> >
> > Bruce F. Webster wrote:
> > >
> >
> > > Probably more than y'all wanted to know, but there it is.
> > > ...thanks again for the kind words.  ..bruce..
> >
> > Thanks for yet another reminder why I constantly fight the
> > battle against Texture-Mapped 3D fighting Hell...
> >
> > Scott Le Grand
> > Head Coder
> > 4Play
> > "It's the gameplay, stupid..."
> 
> I must confess that I get a real kick out of the modern SFX in games. I
> just about wept the first time I booted up The Hive, remembering what
> the Apple II graphics in SunDog were like, and I told someone recently
> that when I want to get in touch with my inner child, I boot up DOOM.

Heh heh, I love technology, I love special effects, but I prefer a plot
with them as well...  I'll take Terminator II to ID4 any
old day :-)...
 
> That said, I haven't come across much out today that holds my attention
> for any length of time. It is, of course, an easy cliche, and one common
> in many fields, to pooh-pooh flashy technical advances and yearn for
> 'true art'...but that doesn't make it less true.

What I really love is what happens when someone who knows gameplay
gets their hands on today's technology and runs with it...

I can >STILL< drop out of reality only to emerge a day or two later
with the right game...  XCOM grabbed me and wouldn't let me go last
Xmas vacation...  Magic Carpet had me engrossed for 10 levels or so
until the difficulty curve spiked like crazy and I never played it
again...   Tempest 2000 on the lowly Atari Jaguar qualifies as Jedi
training in my book...

> _That_ said, the gameplay in SunDog had some major flaws (IMHO). It took
> too long to complete the game, with too much repetition, and there
> wasn't much in the way of plot or non-player characters--all things I
> wanted to fix in Old Scores to Settle. But what I think hooked people on
> SunDog--in spite of those flaws--was that Wayne and I wanted to build a
> pocket universe that one person could kick around in. We wanted to avoid
> what Wayne termed "railroad games" that kept you on a track from start
> to finish.

Agreed...  In Privateer, you pretty much had a set series of dogfighting
missions
to complete or the plot would not advance, and many times it wasn't
clear how
to even get to the next mission...  I've never been able to get into
Elite because I've been cursed with the horrible PC editions... 
BattleCruiser 3000 is and inadequately playtested and buggy mess.  You
provided a set series of objectives (clearly defined!), but....  you
could complete them in many many ways because they mostly depended only
on acquiring money by whatever means necessary and making a possibly
hazardous trading
run...

That's what did it for me...  I was an avid gun and drug runner and
I could double my money on single trips selling such goodies in bars...
Before that, I used to go into heavily armed brawls with street
thugs and live off the spoils...  Man that was great!  And then
there was the ability to step out of the cockpit and literally walk
around, even within your ship...  That's a game!  

> There are, of course, many games out that offer complex, rich universes
> where you populate worlds, negotiate with other governments, and wage
> vast wars. Ours was one person, wandering around, fending off muggers
> and pirates, patching up critical systems, buying illegal components in
> bars to customize your ship, and trying to keep some cash in the bank. I
> think in retrospect that this is why folks still think of SunDog
> fondly--there was a personal dimension and a freedom that were
> appealing.

It was magic...  Never forget that...  I spent 2.5 days from start to
end playing Sundog...  I didn't sleep, I didn't bathe, and I barely
ate...  When I got
the certificate of ownership at the end, I slept for 18 hours straight
and I awoke with the energy to make it through the final month of an
intense 
1 year coding project...  I appreciated it then, and I still remember
it...  
 
> Come to think of it, it's probably just as well there aren't many games
> like that around--my personal and professional life would probably be
> ruined. :-) But don't let that stop any one from trying. ..bruce..

Heh heh, better watch out, I have a pretty rockin' dogfight engine
(16+ player) just itching for a plot :-)...

Scott Le Grand
Head Coder
4Play
"You're only as good as your last line of code." - Eugene Jarvis

all...@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM (Allen) wrote:

>> : Actually, I think the game was called SunDog, which ran on the Apple II,
>> : and was truly awesome for its time. Written by a guy named Bruce Webster,
>>
>>Thanks for the kind words, one and all. After some 22 years of 
>>software engineering and other activities, I still remain proudest of 
>>SunDog: Frozen Legacy, and it means a lot that others still think fondly
>>of it. :-) 

>SunDog!  I Loved That Game!!!

>My friends and I played it nonstop for weeks on the ole Apple II.  We're
>still waiting for the sequel to come out.  It was an alltime classic, one
>of the best games ever.  Thanks Bruce for the memories...

>Allen

I remember playing this classic at my friends house.  I never did get
a chance to win.  Has to be the first game of this genre I have ever
played.

---
Don't bother replying via email, I won't get it. 
---

MeM...@hereherehere.com (D) wrote:

>all...@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM (Allen) wrote:

>>> : Actually, I think the game was called SunDog, which ran on the Apple II,
>>> : and was truly awesome for its time. Written by a guy named Bruce Webster,
>>>
>>>Thanks for the kind words, one and all. After some 22 years of 
>>>software engineering and other activities, I still remain proudest of 
>>>SunDog: Frozen Legacy, and it means a lot that others still think fondly
>>>of it. :-) 

>>SunDog!  I Loved That Game!!!

>>My friends and I played it nonstop for weeks on the ole Apple II.  We're
>>still waiting for the sequel to come out.  It was an alltime classic, one
>>of the best games ever.  Thanks Bruce for the memories...

>>Allen

>I remember playing this classic at my friends house.  I never did get
>a chance to win.  Has to be the first game of this genre I have ever
>played.

>---
>Don't bother replying via email, I won't get it. 
>---

 I played the ATARI ST version and loved it. Its still one of my all
time favorites.
How CGW overlooked it in the top 150 games of all time is beyond me.

Allen (all...@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM) wrote:
> > : Actually, I think the game was called SunDog, which ran on the Apple II,
> > : and was truly awesome for its time. Written by a guy named Bruce Webster,
> >
> >Thanks for the kind words, one and all. After some 22 years of 
> >software engineering and other activities, I still remain proudest of 
> >SunDog: Frozen Legacy, and it means a lot that others still think fondly
> >of it. :-) 
> 
> SunDog!  I Loved That Game!!!
> 
> My friends and I played it nonstop for weeks on the ole Apple II.  We're
> still waiting for the sequel to come out.  It was an alltime classic, one
> of the best games ever.  Thanks Bruce for the memories...
> 
> Allen

Ditto that!  Now just think how great it would be with FMV and cheesy
voice-overs!  :-)


-Chad

Allen wrote:
> 
> SunDog!  I Loved That Game!!!
> 
> My friends and I played it nonstop for weeks on the ole Apple II.  We're
> still waiting for the sequel to come out.  It was an alltime classic, one
> of the best games ever.  Thanks Bruce for the memories...
> 

Well, thank you. (Let's not let this get too mushy here.) I must say
that I occasionally have mixed feelings about the impact the game had,
such as when I got e-mail a year or two ago from someone who was
praising the game and noted in an aside that he nearly flunked junior
high because of SunDog. 

In another posting I just made, I mentioned some of the reasons why I
though SunDog attracted such loyal fans; I'm interested in hearing what
people did and didn't like about it.  Anyone? ..bruce..
 
--------------------------------------
bruce f. webster | bweb...@bfwa.com |
Bruce F. Webster and Associates, Inc.|
    http://www.bfwa.com/~bwebster    |
--------------------------------------

Hi Bruce,

I stumbled on this thread and having played Sundog ten years ago on my old Atari 520ST, I just 
couldn't resist posting a reply.

I thought Sundog was one of the coolest games ever to hit the market, even by today's standards. 
 Nothing gave me the sense of helpless isolation more than that baleful 'Hmmmmmmm' in the 
background as my rover trekked through the hostile terrain in search of that elusive Cryogen 
colony while my health stats plummeted into the red line.  Just loved those cute burgers!!!

I would very much like to see a sequel to this game!!  However (sob) unlikely that may be.

Regards, and thanks for those late-nights.


Raymond Foo
cs...@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu

Allen (all...@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM) wrote:
: > : Actually, I think the game was called SunDog, which ran on the Apple II,
: > : and was truly awesome for its time. Written by a guy named Bruce Webster,
: >
: >Thanks for the kind words, one and all. After some 22 years of 
: >software engineering and other activities, I still remain proudest of 
: >SunDog: Frozen Legacy, and it means a lot that others still think fondly
: >of it. :-) 

: SunDog!  I Loved That Game!!!

: My friends and I played it nonstop for weeks on the ole Apple II.  We're
: still waiting for the sequel to come out.  It was an alltime classic, one
: of the best games ever.  Thanks Bruce for the memories...

If only someone would write a modern game that was as much _fun_ as
SunDog. Let's hope the Privateer II team had a copy loaded-up at all times
during development. Just to keep 'em honest.  

.. and while we're on the topic, would someone _please_ redo Autoduel
before the century is out? I'm getting tired of waiting.

----------------------
Adam Farkas / afa...@umich.edu 
University of Michigan Medical School
Ann Arbor, MI

In article <54mg0j$7...@lastactionhero.rs.itd.umich.edu>,
Adam Wolf Farkas <afa...@umich.edu> wrote:
>Allen (all...@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM) wrote:
>: >Thanks for the kind words, one and all. After some 22 years of 
>: >software engineering and other activities, I still remain proudest of 
>: >SunDog: Frozen Legacy, and it means a lot that others still think fondly
>: >of it. :-) 
>
>: SunDog!  I Loved That Game!!!
>
>: My friends and I played it nonstop for weeks on the ole Apple II.  We're
>: still waiting for the sequel to come out.  It was an alltime classic, one
>: of the best games ever.  Thanks Bruce for the memories...
>
>If only someone would write a modern game that was as much _fun_ as
>SunDog. Let's hope the Privateer II team had a copy loaded-up at all times
>during development. Just to keep 'em honest.  
>
B
>Adam Farkas / afa...@umich.edu 
>University of Michigan Medical School
>Ann Arbor, MI

Sundog was fantasic. Way ahead of it's time and it worked. Being able
to fool around with parts of your ship was the most fun imho.

dla

Donald L. Anglin wrote:
> 
> Sundog was fantasic. Way ahead of it's time and it worked. Being able
> to fool around with parts of your ship was the most fun imho.

That was one of my favorite parts, too, which is why it got some real
time and attention. What I was most proud of there was the real-time
effects: your ship's capabilities changed as you swapped parts in and
out, and if you were under attack while you were back in the component
bays, you could see parts burn out right before your eyes as the ship
got hit. I'm not sure how many folks ever saw that, but it was nice to
know it was there.  ..bruce..

--------------------------------------
bruce f. webster | bweb...@bfwa.com |
Bruce F. Webster and Associates, Inc.|
    http://www.bfwa.com/~bwebster    |
--------------------------------------

Bruce F. Webster wrote:
> I'm interested in hearing what people did and didn't 
> like about it.  Anyone?

    Well, I'll tell you one thing I really liked and that 
was the way you needed all those different parts to click 
into your engineering section.  It was always grueling to 
have one of those hard fights that blew out key engine 
parts on the "outgoing" legs - when you were on your way 
out into the boonies where the ship parts stores didn't 
have anything to sell you but a bunch of shunts.  Shunts 
were a great idea - they let you keep slogging onward 
but with a real sensation of being jury-rigged.

-- 
Nathan Engle             Electron Juggler 
Indiana University       Dept of Psychology
nen...@indiana.edu       http://ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu/~nengle
"Some Assembly Required"

Bruce F. Webster <bweb...@bfwa.com> wrote in article
<32701F...@bfwa.com>...
> Allen wrote:
> > 
> 
> In another posting I just made, I mentioned some of the reasons why I
> though SunDog attracted such loyal fans; I'm interested in hearing what
> people did and didn't like about it.  Anyone? ..bruce..
>  

Well...

It felt like you were really there.  There were people you ran into that
were just going about their daily lives not really caring what you were up
to unless they wanted something from you (or you took their seat)

People insulted you, you got mugged, you got parking tickets, you got drunk
(!), you lost your money if you fell asleep, there was a noticeable bad
effect from taking drugs, you could cheat a little (paying for item 1 and
grabbing item 2), and you couldn't effect the world in general outside of
your village.

Bad things, it _was_ long, but that was part of the fun.  Too hard to drive
on the outside of some planets, and no major contact with others.  Oh, and
you could easily spend 5 minutes looking for a town after you landed near
it with the Ground Scanner.

It was just an all around great game (ST version was the best) and in my
opinion nothing has come near it.  It doesn't even look like Priv2 will
live up to these expectations.  Oh well.

BTW, I checked out your web site, and chance of A Score to Settle getting
anywhere near publication?  PLEASE?!?


-- 
--Jim York
Crusader Port Team
Realtime Associates, Seattle WA

Adam Wolf Farkas wrote:
> If only someone would write a modern game that was as much _fun_ as
> SunDog.

... and I don't recall ever installing a patch for SunDog (ST version).
This truly was one of the greatest games... my 11 year old nephew played
non-stop for two weeks last summer on the old ST (he got as far in 2
weeks as I got in 6 year <g>). Sadly, niether of us have seen the end
(got to where we bought an FTL drive and went to that last planet/moon,
only to find no darn c-gens).

Hey, were you ever stopped in the street by the developer and handed
some money?  I thought that was great.

-Celsius

Celsius wrote:
> 
> Adam Wolf Farkas wrote:
> > If only someone would write a modern game that was as much _fun_ as
> > SunDog.
> 
> ... and I don't recall ever installing a patch for SunDog (ST version).

To be fair, the ST was a much more homegeneous platform than
the PC (as are today's consoles) so debugging was/is a little
bit easier...  However, the level of buggery in games like BC3K
and Daggerfall is disgusting and inexcusable and we cannot
allow companies to get away with this any further...  In
contrast, the level of buggery in games like Doom and Quake
(weird sound/gfx card combos and such) are quite understandable
as no one has access to every possible PC configuration out
there...

> This truly was one of the greatest games... my 11 year old nephew played
> non-stop for two weeks last summer on the old ST (he got as far in 2
> weeks as I got in 6 year <g>). Sadly, niether of us have seen the end
> (got to where we bought an FTL drive and went to that last planet/moon,
> only to find no darn c-gens).

My girlfriend of the time and I used to fight over the ST
to the point that we started going on 1 hour Sundog shifts
because neither of us could stand playing as backseat drivers...

We broke up about a year later, surprised?

Scott Le Grand
Head Coder
4Play
"You're only as good as your last line of code" - Eugene Jarvis

In article <32701E...@bfwa.com>,
Bruce F. Webster <bweb...@bfwa.com> wrote:
>Scott Le Grand wrote:
>> 
>> Bruce F. Webster wrote:
>> >
>> 
>> > Probably more than y'all wanted to know, but there it is. 
>> > ...thanks again for the kind words.  ..bruce..
>> 
>> Thanks for yet another reminder why I constantly fight the
>> battle against Texture-Mapped 3D fighting Hell...
>> 
>> Scott Le Grand
>> Head Coder
>> 4Play
>> "It's the gameplay, stupid..."
>
>I must confess that I get a real kick out of the modern SFX in games. I
>just about wept the first time I booted up The Hive, remembering what
>the Apple II graphics in SunDog were like, and I told someone recently
>that when I want to get in touch with my inner child, I boot up DOOM. 

So do I :)

>That said, I haven't come across much out today that holds my attention
>for any length of time. It is, of course, an easy cliche, and one common
>in many fields, to pooh-pooh flashy technical advances and yearn for
>'true art'...but that doesn't make it less true. 
>
>_That_ said, the gameplay in SunDog had some major flaws (IMHO). It took
>too long to complete the game, with too much repetition, and there
>wasn't much in the way of plot or non-player characters--all things I
>wanted to fix in Old Scores to Settle. But what I think hooked people on
>SunDog--in spite of those flaws--was that Wayne and I wanted to build a
>pocket universe that one person could kick around in. We wanted to avoid
>what Wayne termed "railroad games" that kept you on a track from start
>to finish. 

I agree with the repetition, but I didn't mind too much since the game
kept my attention so well. I did a lot of repetitious things to get lots
of money so I wouldn't have to worry about it later... the most lucrative
of which was buying control nodes on Jondd and selling them in bars on
Woremed for a really large profit. It took a while, but after I had done
it a few times, I had enough money to finish the game. The other way (and
more cathartic) was to buy a scattergun and a shield and sit in the street
waiting for hapless muggers to blast. 

>There are, of course, many games out that offer complex, rich universes
>where you populate worlds, negotiate with other governments, and wage
>vast wars. Ours was one person, wandering around, fending off muggers
>and pirates, patching up critical systems, buying illegal components in
>bars to customize your ship, and trying to keep some cash in the bank. I
>think in retrospect that this is why folks still think of SunDog
>fondly--there was a personal dimension and a freedom that were
>appealing. 

I think you've got it there- it's the same reason why people still yearn
for Elite and Ulima IV... for most of the game you are just one small
inhabitant of a complex world... and you have the choice to do whatever
you feel like. Especially in Elite, where you could be anything from a
space merchant to an asteroid miner to a pirate- it was up to you.

>Come to think of it, it's probably just as well there aren't many games
>like that around--my personal and professional life would probably be
>ruined. :-) But don't let that stop any one from trying. ..bruce..

Well, I have been developing an idea for the perfect 'life-ruining' game
(and I mean that in a good way) for some time. I'm not a programmer, but I
hope that some programmer will see my idea and have a go at it...

I define the game in terms of other games in the past, for ease of
understanding, and because I liked their features. The first obvious combo
is one of Elite/Sundog style. Elite had a larger universe than Sundog, and
I liked the options. However, in Elite, you really weren't a person- you
were your ship. I want the flight engine of Elite (or even Frontier:Elite
II) and the complex universe of FEII, with the personal view of Sundog.
I'd like to leave my ship at space stations and wander into bars and
places like that. Make better deals than you could get on the open
market...
I also liked the ability to buy new ships with different capacities and
specialties in FEII. The ship component aspect of Sundog was brilliant. We
need to keep that. Differnt ships should use the same components but in
different amounts and configurations.
The choices of lifestyle should be open to several possibilities like in
Elite and FEII and Sundog. It would be nice to have a couple of larger
quests like there is the one in Sundog, and some smaller quicker ones like
in FEII and to a lesser extent Elite, just to keep things interesting. 
The problem with Elite and FEII is that once you have the best ship
bristling with weapons and more money than you could ever spend, there's
nothing to do. So I suggest a new level to the game, where you would have
the ability (with a sufficiently obscene amount of cash) to buy a space
station and hire traders (or pirates) to do the flying for you while you
administrate, with the eventual goal of this section of the game being
economic control of the planet or the system... then perhaps even a switch
to a conquering phase as you buy armies and attack the powers that be (or
am I getting way too ambitious?)

Anyhow, it sounds like the perfect game to me :) I'd never play anything
else...

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Josh Carpman            | Atheist / Furry / Artist / Foxboro Engineer
Paracelsus on FurryMUCK | Rice University BSChE '94
rac...@neosoft.com     | *** DARE TO BE TRUE *** M.A. '90
----------------------------------------------------------------------
        UNWANTED EMAIL SOLICITATION SUBJECT TO 500 DOLLAR FINE

Well, I remember I liked sundog, but I never got anywhere in it... 

I distinctly remember I had a great deal of trouble replacing blown
shunts... that really drove me nuts


****************************************************************************
David Lam (dav...@wizard.teksupport.net.au)              Melbourne,Australia
Compiler/Editor of 3D-Bench Benchmarks at http://www.dfw.net/~sdw/index.html

Nathan Engle <nen...@indiana.edu> wrote in article
<32700C...@indiana.edu>...

> Shunts 
> were a great idea - they let you keep slogging onward 
> but with a real sensation of being jury-rigged.

Can we attribute the word 'Shunt' to you Bruce?  I was using this term a
few months ago to describe a jury-rigged portion of my software development
project and was stunned when my co-workers didn't understand the term.  I
had to explain to them the whole concept of a 'cheap universal part that
works as a stand-in for a real part in an emergency basis'.

Bruce -- here's to you on SunDog -- I still think of that game as the best
I played.  Between it and the Dao of Objects, you got a good thing goin'.

 - jcb

Jay Beavers wrote:
> Can we attribute the word 'Shunt' to you Bruce?

    My Oxford Concise Dictionary includes a listing for "shunt" specifying 
its origin in Middle English (i.e.- 1150-1500AD, hundreds of years old).

>  I was using this term a
> few months ago to describe a jury-rigged portion of my software development
> project and was stunned when my co-workers didn't understand the term.  I
> had to explain to them the whole concept of a 'cheap universal part that
> works as a stand-in for a real part in an emergency basis'.

    Well, a lot of us are still working on acquiring English as our first 
language...

> Bruce -- here's to you on SunDog -- I still think of that game as the best
> I played.  Between it and the Dao of Objects, you got a good thing goin'.

    Ditto.  I'm playing it through again.  It's sort of weird sitting in 
front of a Windows/NT box running an AppleII emulator but it's a good sort 
of weird. 

-- 
Nathan Engle             Electron Juggler
Indiana University       Dept of Psychology
nen...@indiana.edu       http://ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu/~nengle
"Some Assembly Required"

Josh Carpman wrote:
> 
> [game ideas sniped]
> 
> Anyhow, it sounds like the perfect game to me :) I'd never play anything
> else...
> 

Thanks for the comments and feedback--good ideas, all. As to whether
I'll ever be able to do anything with them remains to be seen. :-) 
..bruce..


--------------------------------------
bruce f. webster | bweb...@bfwa.com |
Bruce F. Webster and Associates, Inc.|
    http://www.bfwa.com/~bwebster    |
--------------------------------------

>
>In another posting I just made, I mentioned some of the reasons why I
>though SunDog attracted such loyal fans; I'm interested in hearing what
>people did and didn't like about it.  Anyone? ..bruce..
> 

I stopped playing the game because I couldn't get very far without being 
attacked by pirates who would blow me to bits.  I just couldn't make enough 
money to pay for the damage those guys would do.  I admit I didn't try real 
hard though.  I got caught up with Autoduel I think.  Autoduel, Wasteland, 
Alternate Reality, and King's Bounty were my favorites.

I know some of those came out a bit after SunDog, but somehow they grabbed my 
attention more solidly.  All of those games were very similar in that you 
somehow had to find a way pretty early to "stay ahead of the curve" (stay 
alive basically) or you would never get to the good stuff in the game.  For 
some reason I didn't reach that with SunDog.  Heck, it could have been that I 
was dating someone at the time - I don't remember.

I really liked the genre though.  I'm a big sci-fi fan.  The closest game that 
came to it was some Martian thing.  I got it in some "classic" a bundle on my 
386.  Tongue of the Fat Man was one of the games in the bundle.  The martian 
game was pretty good.  Some mystery on Mars colony and you had to get your 
party of guys really good to explore the caverns and sleazy towns and stuff.

I know I'm rambling, but one point I'd like to make before I fall asleep is, 
most games are missing something.  SunDog was a classic that headed towards 
the same goal that Alternate Reality and DaggerFall shot for.  They all want 
to create some big place for you to walk around in.  After playing DaggerFall 
a lot I've come to the conclusion that there needs to be something worth 
walking around for!  DaggerFall has gotten just plain boring for me.  I find 
myself just slaughtering entire towns in an attempt to have fun. Maybe that's 
it, there's no sense of people more powerful than you - the guards are a 
joke.  I guess the reason I liked Alternate Reality was because I really 
thought they were going to come out with the next 5 games in the series (where 
you could carry your guy along).  Whatever it is, I really liked Autoduel and 
King's Bounty.

SunDog was a cool game, I just didn't give it enough time.

Tim

I had it and had managed to accumulate a LOT of money, so my ship was pretty powerfull, and getting it fixed was not a problem.   great and complex game!!!

I agree the game was slow but if you had multiple drives it sped it up where it was very playable.(i had 4 drives).

On Monday, October 7, 1996 3:00:00 AM UTC-4, John Welch wrote:
> Hahah!  Right Now I use the old binder For Universe to hold all of my role 
> playing materials...  I didn't think anyone had ever played this game.  It 
> was such a pain in the rear..  All that switching disks and all heh...

I still have the game and my Atari.
I used two Atari 1050 floppy drives daisy chained and that eliminated most of the disk swapping. I made so much money trading Radiotope furnaces that I was able to buy a new ship with a fast drive and massive weaponry. I switched from trading to outright piracy. I was able to kick the arse of any warship that challenged me. 
I forgot all about searching for that damned Hyperdive. I was having too much fun plundering the Universe.

i played it a lot, it was great if you had more than one drive (i had 4) and the game sensed it and just loaded what it needed.  thre was also a hack that would change the sector on the user game data save disk, and give you over 5 millon dollars.
I loaded it up and had the baddest ship in the universr