🚀 go-pugleaf

Justisaur <just...@gmail.com> looked up from reading the entrails of
the porn spammer to utter  "The Augury is good, the signs say:

>Anyone playing Diablo 3?

Nope, not even installed anymore since there's essentially zero chance
I'll ever play it again.

>I went back to it.
>
>They'll be getting rid of the auction house in march

Too little, too late.
They destroyed the game by making the auction house a necessary part in
their attempt to get more income.

They finally realized what a stupid move it was, but the people that
played a while and left are not likely to come back, since there's loads
of other, better games out there now.

All the people who wanted a REAL Diablo3 instead of an auction house
with a generic fantasy game bolted onto it are playing Path of Exile.

Take away the names (Sanctuary, Cain, Tristram, etc) and you'd never
even have known Diablo3 was supposed to be a Diablo game, since it has
pretty much nothing in common with the previous games.

Xocyll

On Friday, January 17, 2014 5:13:11 PM UTC-8, Xocyll wrote:
> Justisaur <just...@gmail.com> looked up from reading the entrails of
> 
> the porn spammer to utter  "The Augury is good, the signs say:
> 
> >Anyone playing Diablo 3?
> 
> Nope, not even installed anymore since there's essentially zero chance
> I'll ever play it again.
> 
> >I went back to it.
> 
> >They'll be getting rid of the auction house in march
> 
> Too little, too late.
> 
> They destroyed the game by making the auction house a necessary part in
> their attempt to get more income.
> 
> They finally realized what a stupid move it was, but the people that
> played a while and left are not likely to come back, since there's loads
> of other, better games out there now.
> 
> All the people who wanted a REAL Diablo3 instead of an auction house
> with a generic fantasy game bolted onto it are playing Path of Exile.
>
> 
> Take away the names (Sanctuary, Cain, Tristram, etc) and you'd never 
> even have known Diablo3 was supposed to be a Diablo game, since it has
> pretty much nothing in common with the previous games.
> 
> 

It's funny, I was playing torchlight again recently, and I was surprised how much was stolen back from it to D3, I mean really obviously.  I know Torchlight stole a lot from D2, but it seems more was stolen back the other way.   

I kind of wish they stole more, I really miss the enchanting, so much better. 

I started playing Torchlight II, but with a friend who can't play much and he just wants us to discover it together, so I'm not playing it much.

PoE lost me, I think it was that all the people are practically the same, you just choose a path and follow it, so everyone can be kind of samey.

- Justisaur

Justisaur <just...@gmail.com> looked up from reading the entrails of
the porn spammer to utter  "The Augury is good, the signs say:

>On Friday, January 17, 2014 5:13:11 PM UTC-8, Xocyll wrote:
>> Justisaur <just...@gmail.com> looked up from reading the entrails of
>> 
>> the porn spammer to utter  "The Augury is good, the signs say:
>> 
>> >Anyone playing Diablo 3?
>> 
>> Nope, not even installed anymore since there's essentially zero chance
>> I'll ever play it again.
>> 
>> >I went back to it.
>> 
>> >They'll be getting rid of the auction house in march
>> 
>> Too little, too late.
>> 
>> They destroyed the game by making the auction house a necessary part in
>> their attempt to get more income.
>> 
>> They finally realized what a stupid move it was, but the people that
>> played a while and left are not likely to come back, since there's loads
>> of other, better games out there now.
>> 
>> All the people who wanted a REAL Diablo3 instead of an auction house
>> with a generic fantasy game bolted onto it are playing Path of Exile.
>>
>> 
>> Take away the names (Sanctuary, Cain, Tristram, etc) and you'd never 
>> even have known Diablo3 was supposed to be a Diablo game, since it has
>> pretty much nothing in common with the previous games.
>> 
>> 
>
>It's funny, I was playing torchlight again recently, and I was surprised how much was stolen back from it to D3, I mean really obviously.  I know Torchlight stole a lot from D2, but it seems more was stolen back the other way.   
>
>I kind of wish they stole more, I really miss the enchanting, so much better. 
>
>I started playing Torchlight II, but with a friend who can't play much and he just wants us to discover it together, so I'm not playing it much.
>
>PoE lost me, I think it was that all the people are practically the same, you just choose a path and follow it, so everyone can be kind of samey.

To a point yeah.  That's both it's strength and flaw.

That was my beef with Diablo3, that you could change your skills at any
time, making a second character of any class entirely pointless.

That build limitation in Diablo2 is why people played it for a decade.
Try out a build, play it till it can't progress anymore, make a new
character and try another build.

D3 just killed off pretty much everything that made a Diablo game.

Take away a few names, and you'd never know it was supposed to be
Diablo.

I'm afraid the Elder Scrolls series is going to be killed off the same
way, they'll remove everything that actually made Elder Scrolls unique.

Xocyll

Xocyll <Xoc...@gmx.com> wrote in
news:8tstd95obongbk...@4ax.com: 

> I'm afraid the Elder Scrolls series is going to be killed off the same
> way, they'll remove everything that actually made Elder Scrolls
> unique. 

And then a (group of) hobbyist(s) will come along and invent an even better 
title/franchise (if they haven't already).

Such is the way of software evolution (with or without the retail 
distribution method and/or DRM/DLC debacle)

Signed,
Warewolf
who shall continue to enjoy the fruits of the freeware/open-source circuit, 
thank you very much. ^_^

Warewolf <warewol...@shaw.ca> looked up from reading the entrails
of the porn spammer to utter  "The Augury is good, the signs say:

>Xocyll <Xoc...@gmx.com> wrote in
>news:8tstd95obongbk...@4ax.com: 
>
>> I'm afraid the Elder Scrolls series is going to be killed off the same
>> way, they'll remove everything that actually made Elder Scrolls
>> unique. 
>
>And then a (group of) hobbyist(s) will come along and invent an even better 
>title/franchise (if they haven't already).
>
>Such is the way of software evolution (with or without the retail 
>distribution method and/or DRM/DLC debacle)

Possibly, but the barriers to entry are harder these days with the
fairly extreme costs of modern game development.

Too many of the hobbyist made games are low res 80s/90s graphics which I
just can't play these days.

Hell I reinstalled Morrowind the other day, and managed all of about 10
minutes before the profound ugliness of the characters and character
modeling was too much to take. (Most of that was the stretched out
character generation "story".)

>who shall continue to enjoy the fruits of the freeware/open-source circuit, 
>thank you very much. ^_^

I'm all for it, but I just can't deal with low res games anymore.
It's a sad reality that to make a game with high res graphics takes
resources most hobbyist/freeware/open source shops just do not have.
To have those high res graphics AND a robust choice filled world, that
was only possible for Bethesda because their parent company had the cash
and let them get on with the job, but even then, it's been getting
dumbed down with every issue since they started releasing on consoles.

A shooter maybe could be done by hobbyists, but an RPG would take years
and years for a small unpaid shop and likely would get sidelined as
those hobbyists get jobs in the industry and can't work on it anymore
(seen quite a few freeware projects end up like this - goes strong for a
couple years, then half the crew are gone and it just stops.)

Xocyll

In article <0ic2e9ds94q5kg7sc...@4ax.com>, Xoc...@gmx.com 
says...

> A shooter maybe could be done by hobbyists, but an RPG would take years
> and years for a small unpaid shop and likely would get sidelined as
> those hobbyists get jobs in the industry and can't work on it anymore
> (seen quite a few freeware projects end up like this - goes strong for a
> couple years, then half the crew are gone and it just stops.)

It depends - not everyone is so hard to please in terms of graphics etc.

- Gerry Quinn

Gerry Quinn <ger...@gmail.com> looked up from reading the entrails of
the porn spammer to utter  "The Augury is good, the signs say:

>In article <0ic2e9ds94q5kg7sc...@4ax.com>, Xoc...@gmx.com 
>says...
>
>> A shooter maybe could be done by hobbyists, but an RPG would take years
>> and years for a small unpaid shop and likely would get sidelined as
>> those hobbyists get jobs in the industry and can't work on it anymore
>> (seen quite a few freeware projects end up like this - goes strong for a
>> couple years, then half the crew are gone and it just stops.)
>
>It depends - not everyone is so hard to please in terms of graphics etc.

Yeah, but a fully developed RPG with decent level graphics would still
take a hobbyist crew 5-10 years to get done, if they ever finished.

Sure you can do simple 8-bit graphic and make a simple shooter or
platformer, but a major 3d rpg is far more work.

Even recreating Daggerfall, with Daggerfall level graphics (1996) on
Windows would likely take a freeware crew 5 years minimum, and they'd
probably never finish.

As I said I watched several of these over the years - ambitious freeware
rpg projects, and they'd get sometimes to early alpha builds, and then
nothing as the projects fell apart with the crews being too busy with
the work that feeds and houses them.
That or they'd realize that they couldn't actually pull off the job and
would either have to cancel the project, or scale things back into
something none of them wanted to play or make.

Would you want to play an RPG that's as scaled back (in RPG terms) as
Skyrim, if it only had 8-bit graphics?

That's the problem with a lot of freeware stuff, old school graphics
without the old school content that would make those graphics endurable.

Xocyll

On Friday, January 24, 2014 12:52:35 PM UTC-8, Xocyll wrote:
> Gerry Quinn <ger...@gmail.com> looked up from reading the entrails of
> 
> the porn spammer to utter  "The Augury is good, the signs say:
> 
> >In article <0ic2e9ds94q5kg7sc...@4ax.com>, Xoc...@gmx.com 
> >says...
> 
> >> A shooter maybe could be done by hobbyists, but an RPG would take years
> >> and years for a small unpaid shop and likely would get sidelined as
> >> those hobbyists get jobs in the industry and can't work on it anymore
> >> (seen quite a few freeware projects end up like this - goes strong for a
> 
> >> couple years, then half the crew are gone and it just stops.)
> 
> >
> 
> >It depends - not everyone is so hard to please in terms of graphics etc.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, but a fully developed RPG with decent level graphics would still
> take a hobbyist crew 5-10 years to get done, if they ever finished.
> 
> 
> 
> Sure you can do simple 8-bit graphic and make a simple shooter or
> platformer, but a major 3d rpg is far more work.
> 
> Even recreating Daggerfall, with Daggerfall level graphics (1996) on
> Windows would likely take a freeware crew 5 years minimum, and they'd
> probably never finish.
> 
> 
> 
> As I said I watched several of these over the years - ambitious freeware
> rpg projects, and they'd get sometimes to early alpha builds, and then
> nothing as the projects fell apart with the crews being too busy with
> the work that feeds and houses them.
> That or they'd realize that they couldn't actually pull off the job and
> would either have to cancel the project, or scale things back into
> something none of them wanted to play or make.
> 
> 
> 
> Would you want to play an RPG that's as scaled back (in RPG terms) as
> Skyrim, if it only had 8-bit graphics?
> 
> 
> That's the problem with a lot of freeware stuff, old school graphics
> without the old school content that would make those graphics endurable.

I'm not sure about RPGs or shooters, but I've played a number of new indy 8-bit games that were amazing.  Retro Rampage is one, it's a semi-clone of GTA I, and far better, and Rogue Legacy, a platformer with some rogue like inspiration, and some novel ideas, and the JRPG clone Breath of Death.  I'd think a full RPG on the order of Fallout or at least the old gold box game would be possible.

First person - I doubt it, it relies too much on graphics, although there's the raging success of Minecraft to point to, though I don't get it.

It wouldn't surprise me if someone could pull off isometric, something like diablo 2 for instance, although there's been a lot of trying since it came out that mostly failed. There's already PoE as you mentioned, the graphics are pretty reasonable on that, though I still find D3 looks far better.  Torchlight gameplay was pretty good too, which is semi-indy and not 8-bit, although I personally didn't like the graphics as appearing too cartoony.

A lot appears to depend upon how much funding one can get.

- Justisaur

Justisaur <just...@gmail.com> looked up from reading the entrails of
the porn spammer to utter  "The Augury is good, the signs say:

>On Friday, January 24, 2014 12:52:35 PM UTC-8, Xocyll wrote:
>> Gerry Quinn <ger...@gmail.com> looked up from reading the entrails of
>> 
>> the porn spammer to utter  "The Augury is good, the signs say:
>> 
>> >In article <0ic2e9ds94q5kg7sc...@4ax.com>, Xoc...@gmx.com 
>> >says...
>> 
>> >> A shooter maybe could be done by hobbyists, but an RPG would take years
>> >> and years for a small unpaid shop and likely would get sidelined as
>> >> those hobbyists get jobs in the industry and can't work on it anymore
>> >> (seen quite a few freeware projects end up like this - goes strong for a
>> 
>> >> couple years, then half the crew are gone and it just stops.)
>> 
>> >
>> 
>> >It depends - not everyone is so hard to please in terms of graphics etc.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Yeah, but a fully developed RPG with decent level graphics would still
>> take a hobbyist crew 5-10 years to get done, if they ever finished.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Sure you can do simple 8-bit graphic and make a simple shooter or
>> platformer, but a major 3d rpg is far more work.
>> 
>> Even recreating Daggerfall, with Daggerfall level graphics (1996) on
>> Windows would likely take a freeware crew 5 years minimum, and they'd
>> probably never finish.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> As I said I watched several of these over the years - ambitious freeware
>> rpg projects, and they'd get sometimes to early alpha builds, and then
>> nothing as the projects fell apart with the crews being too busy with
>> the work that feeds and houses them.
>> That or they'd realize that they couldn't actually pull off the job and
>> would either have to cancel the project, or scale things back into
>> something none of them wanted to play or make.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Would you want to play an RPG that's as scaled back (in RPG terms) as
>> Skyrim, if it only had 8-bit graphics?
>> 
>> 
>> That's the problem with a lot of freeware stuff, old school graphics
>> without the old school content that would make those graphics endurable.
>
>I'm not sure about RPGs or shooters, but I've played a number of new indy 8-bit games that were amazing.  Retro Rampage is one, it's a semi-clone of GTA I, and far better, and Rogue Legacy, a platformer with some rogue like inspiration, and some novel ideas, and the JRPG clone Breath of Death.  I'd think a full RPG on the order of Fallout or at least the old gold box game would be possible.
>
>First person - I doubt it, it relies too much on graphics, although there's the raging success of Minecraft to point to, though I don't get it.
>
>It wouldn't surprise me if someone could pull off isometric, something like diablo 2 for instance, although there's been a lot of trying since it came out that mostly failed. There's already PoE as you mentioned, the graphics are pretty reasonable on that, though I still find D3 looks far better.  Torchlight gameplay was pretty good too, which is semi-indy and not 8-bit, although I personally didn't like the graphics as appearing too cartoony.
>
>A lot appears to depend upon how much funding one can get.

What you and Gerry seemed to have missed was the earlier comment I was
addressing;

ME:
I'm afraid the Elder Scrolls series is going to be killed off the same
way, they'll remove everything that actually made Elder Scrolls unique. 

Warewolf:
And then a (group of) hobbyist(s) will come along and invent an even
better title/franchise (if they haven't already).

Such is the way of software evolution (with or without the retail 
distribution method and/or DRM/DLC debacle)



Even better to my mind means it's going to have advanced graphics, since
recent Elder Scrolls games have that, and has at least as much RPG
content and choices as Daggerfall.

That's a tall order for a well funded commercial house, much less a
group of "In my spare time" hobbyists.

Making a game that has the depth and breadth and customization of
Daggerfall, but Might and Magic 1 level graphics (or Diablo1) would not
be "better".

The whole point of the better graphics and 1st person view in a single
player, single character RPG is immersion.
Isometric, you're watching from above, not in the game, good for party
games (whether single or multiplayer.)

Daggerfall had:
Many classes and the ability to custom design your own, complete with
advantages and disadvantages
Multiple guilds to join
Multiple City states and faction reputations
Custom spell creation
Custom item creation
Horses AND carts, and a ship (although you couldn't sail anywhere.)
Banks and letters of credit, because gold is HEAVY
Houses (and many of them) that you could own, and no hoops to jump
through - you bought them from the bank.
Multiple ways to do things; Locked door, the thiefly types pick the
lock, the mages cast an unlock spell and the warrior types bash it down.
If you happened to be a very strong thief with bad picking skill, you
could bash it instead. - From Morrowind on, everybody MUST learn how to
pick a lock or be locked out of various loot.
Multiple metal types, and this didn't just mean that elven was
equivalent to +1 and Dwarven to +2, things were IMMUNE to various types
of metal - better have something good or you're shit out of luck.
Even the starter dungeon sometime had an imp immune to iron or steel
weapons - if you didn't find elven or silver, you weren't killing that.
Cities with Day/Night schedules and gates that locked at night.
Climbing ability, you could climb walls if you were good enough and
escape guards by jumping rooftop to rooftop (in places.)
Werewolves and vampires and the possibility of being turned into one
(and 13 different clans of vampires at that.)
Hunters that would come after you if you were turned.
Different architecture styles and building variety.
No Skyrim style random NPC walks up to you, initiates dialog and now you
have a new quest whether you want it or not.
You initiated dialog and even when you didn't, you could choose to say
"fuck off you old biddy, I don't care about your missing son, go bother
someone else," instead of having her quest added to your queue no matter
what.
No pick up a random object and suddenly have a new quest or be unable to
drop the item because it's a quest item for a quest you don't have yet
and have no idea where to get.


And perhaps anathema to the console and ADD teen audience (mostly the
same)
No "YOU GO HERE" arrows leading directly to your target - you had to
talk to NPCs and ask them about the person you were looking for and
narrow it down until you found their house.

The biggest difference I could see between old PC RPGs and console type
(I knew people who played those final fantasy ones and others like
that,) is that the PC RPGs, YOU chose your role to play, in the console
ones, and various later FMV/full voiced PC games, you were given a role
to play as though you were an actor who was not allowed to improvise in
any way.

Role playing and an actor playing a role are not at all the same thing.

Tabletop D&D or whatever wouldn't be much fun if you showed up and the
DM gave you a script of every action and dialog you'd be allowed to do
in the game.

Xocyll

In article <8vj5e9dfnggcd1bqf...@4ax.com>, Xoc...@gmx.com 
says...

> Would you want to play an RPG that's as scaled back (in RPG terms) as
> Skyrim, if it only had 8-bit graphics?
> 
> That's the problem with a lot of freeware stuff, old school graphics
> without the old school content that would make those graphics endurable.


I wouldn't expect much of freeware games.  Spiderweb still sells their 
old-school games - lots of people buy them.

MMX Legacy is out now, granted they seem to have put plenty of art into 
it, but the gameplay is old-school.

- Gerry Quinn

Gerry Quinn <ger...@gmail.com> looked up from reading the entrails of
the porn spammer to utter  "The Augury is good, the signs say:

>In article <8vj5e9dfnggcd1bqf...@4ax.com>, Xoc...@gmx.com 
>says...
>
>> Would you want to play an RPG that's as scaled back (in RPG terms) as
>> Skyrim, if it only had 8-bit graphics?
>> 
>> That's the problem with a lot of freeware stuff, old school graphics
>> without the old school content that would make those graphics endurable.
>
>
>I wouldn't expect much of freeware games.  Spiderweb still sells their 
>old-school games - lots of people buy them.

Oh I know they do, but as I noted previously, isometric RPGs aren't
particularly immersive and certainly would never be an "Even better"
system then the Elder Scrolls has.

Their games look like they're from the 80s, and while some people like
that old school look, I don't and I never found that kind of game
immersive.

How can you, you aren't IN the world, you're looking down on a party
that's in the world.

Xocyll

>MMX Legacy is out now, granted they seem to have put plenty of art into 
>it, but the gameplay is old-school.

Well screenies make it look fairly advanced graphically, but it's party
based.

I played some of the early Might and Magic games, and Dungeon Master2
and the Eye of the Beholder series, they were fun, but they were never
immersive the way Ultima Underworld or Arena was.

I'm one person, I can role play one character, where I do all the moves
not a party where I click on a key and the character makes an attack of
some kind or picks a lock or defuses a trap or whatever.

Maybe if I had MPD I could get immersed in that, but I doubt it, since
it would still be that one step removed from me doing anything in game.

Party games should be isometric, since placement of the characters
matters when making attacks (or at least it does in the good ones.)
3d is good for single character games with high immersion, where you ARE
the character.

3d with a party is the worst of all worlds, except for one example -
Betrayal at Krondor, and that only because when combat initiated, the
game went from 3d to isometric, then back to 3d after combat finished.

Xocyll

In article <so58e9d4dfd2h11j6...@4ax.com>, Xoc...@gmx.com 
says...
> Gerry Quinn <ger...@gmail.com> looked up from reading the entrails of
> the porn spammer to utter  "The Augury is good, the signs say:

> >I wouldn't expect much of freeware games.  Spiderweb still sells their 
> >old-school games - lots of people buy them.
> 
> Oh I know they do, but as I noted previously, isometric RPGs aren't
> particularly immersive and certainly would never be an "Even better"
> system then the Elder Scrolls has.
> 
> Their games look like they're from the 80s, and while some people like
> that old school look, I don't and I never found that kind of game
> immersive.
> 
> How can you, you aren't IN the world, you're looking down on a party
> that's in the world.

It could be worse - what if you had to decode a set of symbols to work 
out what characters are doing?  I don't understand how people can find 
those so-called "books" immersive!

Seriously, different strokes for different folks, but for me the 
perspective doesn't make too much difference. I guess I must be more 
about getting immersed in the story than 'being there'.


> >MMX Legacy is out now, granted they seem to have put plenty of art into 
> >it, but the gameplay is old-school.
> 
> Well screenies make it look fairly advanced graphically, but it's party
> based.
> 
> I played some of the early Might and Magic games, and Dungeon Master2
> and the Eye of the Beholder series, they were fun, but they were never
> immersive the way Ultima Underworld or Arena was.
> 
> I'm one person, I can role play one character, where I do all the moves
> not a party where I click on a key and the character makes an attack of
> some kind or picks a lock or defuses a trap or whatever.

I agree that having a party tends to push a game towards the strategy 
side of things.

> Maybe if I had MPD I could get immersed in that, but I doubt it, since
> it would still be that one step removed from me doing anything in game.
> 
> Party games should be isometric, since placement of the characters
> matters when making attacks (or at least it does in the good ones.)
> 3d is good for single character games with high immersion, where you ARE
> the character.

Wizardry 8 had a decent system combining 3D with positioning, but it 
hasn't caught om as far as I know.  Not sure why - the combats tended to 
be overlong, but that was game design not an intrinsic feature of the 
system.

- Gerry Quinn