🚀 go-pugleaf

Den 30-04-2014 21:22, Catriona R skrev:

> Had it been like this from the start, it would've been no problem, but
> we've had two years of LFR getting lower ilvl versions of regular raid
> gear, to take that away now is harsh. The ugly LFR "sets" just add
> insult to injury as well, everyone's going to transmog away from
> those! I can see where the devs are coming from, but it's far too late
> for this change to not seriously piss off a large number of people,
> I'll be interested to see if it actually survives to release without a
> few changes.

Well.  As long as people survive in pve battles (questing, minibosses 
etc) and actually they have a feeling of being overwhelming I guess they 
really dont care much about gear and raids.  So it all depends on how 
the Blizzard crew tunes the pve environment according to gear.
When that is said.  I have stopped following rumors and news about the 
next major patch or expansion years ago anyway.  Its subject to change 
anyway at any time everytime Blizzard digs further down in the ground.

But the scalable raids sounds promising.  I just hope they will do the 
scaling better than in today's flex raids where bosses makes a major 
step up in health and overall damage between 12 and 13 player raids and 
in 18 and 19 player raids.  I guess we will see lots of 12, 18 and 25 
man raids if they dont fix the scaling part which will make the scaling 
more or less obsolete.
The flexible raid sizes will also require lots of players with some 
offspec as it does now if you have an inexperienced or low-geared raid. 
  Boomkin/resto druid, ele/resto shammy and shadow priests/healer 
priests are 3x2 specs that - roughly said - can go with the same set of 
gear no matter the role while dps/tanks still will require 2 sets of 
gear when it comes to monks, warriors, paladins and DKs.  But again. 
Tank roles seems to be revised heavily in WoD so maybe those will only 
need one set of gear for dps/tank roles.  Only blizzard knows. :)

-- 
Peter T.

<https://elite.frontier.co.uk/>

On Thu, 01 May 2014 00:57:43 +0200, "Peter T." <pinoc10@hotmail.cum>
wrote:

>Den 30-04-2014 21:22, Catriona R skrev:
>
>> Had it been like this from the start, it would've been no problem, but
>> we've had two years of LFR getting lower ilvl versions of regular raid
>> gear, to take that away now is harsh. The ugly LFR "sets" just add
>> insult to injury as well, everyone's going to transmog away from
>> those! I can see where the devs are coming from, but it's far too late
>> for this change to not seriously piss off a large number of people,
>> I'll be interested to see if it actually survives to release without a
>> few changes.
>
>Well.  As long as people survive in pve battles (questing, minibosses 
>etc) and actually they have a feeling of being overwhelming I guess they 
>really dont care much about gear and raids.  

Common misconception, mainly used by those who are hardcore raiders
when arguing why the rest shouldn't get anything. Character
progression is a big part of the game to *everyone*, not just raiders,
and having been able to work towards setbonuses, and get nice looks on
our gear while playing the way which suits those of us who prefer LFR
for the last two years, it's not too nice to have that taken away now.
You perhaps haven't seen the graphics on the LFR "sets"
(http://wowhead.com/news=236594/warlords-of-draenor-transmog-preview-3d-armor-sets),
but they're hideous imo, it's like greens, I will certainly be
transmogging them away, quite possibly to the crafted or even dungeon
sets, both of which are much nicer! Sure, not everyone cares about
looks, but I know a good number do. And I think *everyone* likes to
get good gear, I don't see the point in total removal of bonuses,
maybe just make them exclusive to LFR and a bit lower effect (ie,
normal raiders can't mix in LFR gear for the bonus), would solve the
problem in a way that won't upset half the playerbase.

>So it all depends on how 
>the Blizzard crew tunes the pve environment according to gear.
>When that is said.  I have stopped following rumors and news about the 
>next major patch or expansion years ago anyway.  Its subject to change 
>anyway at any time everytime Blizzard digs further down in the ground.

True enough, but when they make detailed announcements, it's fairly
likely to happen, assuming they haven't (again) underestimated just
how many people they're annoying...

>But the scalable raids sounds promising.  I just hope they will do the 
>scaling better than in today's flex raids where bosses makes a major 
>step up in health and overall damage between 12 and 13 player raids and 
>in 18 and 19 player raids.  I guess we will see lots of 12, 18 and 25 
>man raids if they dont fix the scaling part which will make the scaling 
>more or less obsolete.

I think it should work out alright, the major issue recently I believe
is with boss mechanics that abruptly jump from hitting 2 people to 3
or whatever, and everything like that is being changed for 6.0 so it
hits say, 2 people with a 30% chance to hit a 3rd, that kinda thing.
Was properly explained by one of the devs a while back, I'm rather
less good at explaining hazy memories :-)

>The flexible raid sizes will also require lots of players with some 
>offspec as it does now if you have an inexperienced or low-geared raid. 
>  Boomkin/resto druid, ele/resto shammy and shadow priests/healer 
>priests are 3x2 specs that - roughly said - can go with the same set of 
>gear no matter the role while dps/tanks still will require 2 sets of 
>gear when it comes to monks, warriors, paladins and DKs.  But again. 
>Tank roles seems to be revised heavily in WoD so maybe those will only 
>need one set of gear for dps/tank roles.  Only blizzard knows. :)

Gearing is changing bigtime, so that changes a lot of what you say
above ;-) Gear has a main stat that changes with your spec now, so you
can have holy/ret pallies, ele/enh shaman etc with one set of gear, so
long as you're not too picky about crit/haste/mastery preferences
between specs. Only exceptions are spirit for healers and armor for
tanks, which are useless to other specs - those are only found on
jewellry now though, so just a few spare items to carry around rather
than a full set. Of course min-maxers will still carry full sets
around but normal folk will have 4-5 spare pieces max, by the sounds
of it :-)

Den 01-05-2014 01:59, Catriona R skrev:

>> Well.  As long as people survive in pve battles (questing, minibosses
>> etc) and actually they have a feeling of being overwhelming I guess they
>> really dont care much about gear and raids.
>
> Common misconception, mainly used by those who are hardcore raiders
> when arguing why the rest shouldn't get anything. Character

I'm not a hardcore raider.  I'm in a non-HC guild with a very laid back 
atmosphere and some of us finally killed Garrosh on normal a few weeks 
ago 7-8(!) months after 5.4 was released. :)
I look at my guild's members where many of them are fine with just 
killing a rare, doing a hc scen and a LFR now and then.  Most of them 
dont even sign up for our guild's weekly flex run where some of us uses 
our well-geared mains for carrying them through the bosses so they can 
get even better gear!

> progression is a big part of the game to *everyone*, not just raiders,
> and having been able to work towards setbonuses, and get nice looks on
> our gear while playing the way which suits those of us who prefer LFR
> for the last two years, it's not too nice to have that taken away now.
> You perhaps haven't seen the graphics on the LFR "sets"
> (http://wowhead.com/news=236594/warlords-of-draenor-transmog-preview-3d-armor-sets),
> but they're hideous imo, it's like greens, I will certainly be
> transmogging them away, quite possibly to the crafted or even dungeon
> sets, both of which are much nicer! Sure, not everyone cares about
> looks, but I know a good number do. And I think *everyone* likes to
> get good gear, I don't see the point in total removal of bonuses,
> maybe just make them exclusive to LFR and a bit lower effect (ie,
> normal raiders can't mix in LFR gear for the bonus), would solve the
> problem in a way that won't upset half the playerbase.

I dont have a problem with that.  Most gear havent been pretty since BC. 
  Today's gear is dark and dull and I wonder why it is that as the rest 
of the game is pretty cartoon'ish.  Its like Blizzard is trying to sit 
between 2 chairs - one with the cartoon style and another with a more 
updated and modern style inspired from many other games.
And the set bonuses?  Honestly.  It's still just a gear set bonus.  A 
huge part of the playerpool will see the endgame content anyway and with 
epics in every slot.  Just at a lower difficulty level.

> Gearing is changing bigtime

I catch up the information 2-3 weeks before the next expansion goes live 
as I dont feel to worry about it now as there is no official release 
date atm.
We entered May today and there has been loads of rumors with an official 
release date in august.  That is 3 months from now.  I still guess 
november.  3-5 months is plenty of time for planned changes to the 
planned changes to the planned changed..... in WoD.

The only brilliant information I've heard is the news about the revamped 
farm in WoD.  i've only heard about it from a guildie.  But it sounds 
like Blizzard are implementing loads of sim city/sims elements in it.
But again.  Blizzard also said they would make our farm in MoP much more 
interesting with the latest 5.4 patch.  The only thing we got is the 
more or less useless portal shard and another place to set our hearth 
stone.  So I've learned to not have any expectations to the content 
until the next expansion is just around the corner.  I just play the 
game and try to fit in with the changes. :)

-- 
Peter T.

<https://elite.frontier.co.uk/>

On Thu, 01 May 2014 10:49:48 +0200, "Peter T." <pinoc10@hotmail.cum>
wrote:

>Den 01-05-2014 01:59, Catriona R skrev:
>
>>> Well.  As long as people survive in pve battles (questing, minibosses
>>> etc) and actually they have a feeling of being overwhelming I guess they
>>> really dont care much about gear and raids.
>>
>> Common misconception, mainly used by those who are hardcore raiders
>> when arguing why the rest shouldn't get anything. Character
>
>I'm not a hardcore raider.  I'm in a non-HC guild with a very laid back 
>atmosphere and some of us finally killed Garrosh on normal a few weeks 
>ago 7-8(!) months after 5.4 was released. :)

You're still ahead of the more casual types gearwise though, and I can
say from the viewpoint of someone who only does LFR: I like being able
to work towards better gear, evem though I'm geared well enough to do
anything I want alreayd, it's just about progressing my character even
more. Part of why I never bothered with SoO LFR was the gear in it is
rubbish: I had almost as good from valor before it came out and got
better in nearly every slot on the Timeless isle...

>I look at my guild's members where many of them are fine with just 
>killing a rare, doing a hc scen and a LFR now and then.  Most of them 
>dont even sign up for our guild's weekly flex run where some of us uses 
>our well-geared mains for carrying them through the bosses so they can 
>get even better gear!

It's entirely possible that they don't like organised raiding, or
don't have the time to commit to it. I've never done a flex raid, and
there's plenty pugs on my realm, plus I actually do meet the stupid
ilvl requirements most use - I just don't enjoy it and don't want to
dedicate a big chunk of time to it. I still imagine your guildies like
having the option to get tier pieces in LFR, both in looks and
setbonuses :-)

>> progression is a big part of the game to *everyone*, not just raiders,
>> and having been able to work towards setbonuses, and get nice looks on
>> our gear while playing the way which suits those of us who prefer LFR
>> for the last two years, it's not too nice to have that taken away now.
>> You perhaps haven't seen the graphics on the LFR "sets"
>> (http://wowhead.com/news=236594/warlords-of-draenor-transmog-preview-3d-armor-sets),
>> but they're hideous imo, it's like greens, I will certainly be
>> transmogging them away, quite possibly to the crafted or even dungeon
>> sets, both of which are much nicer! Sure, not everyone cares about
>> looks, but I know a good number do. And I think *everyone* likes to
>> get good gear, I don't see the point in total removal of bonuses,
>> maybe just make them exclusive to LFR and a bit lower effect (ie,
>> normal raiders can't mix in LFR gear for the bonus), would solve the
>> problem in a way that won't upset half the playerbase.
>
>I dont have a problem with that.  Most gear havent been pretty since BC. 
>  Today's gear is dark and dull and I wonder why it is that as the rest 
>of the game is pretty cartoon'ish.  Its like Blizzard is trying to sit 
>between 2 chairs - one with the cartoon style and another with a more 
>updated and modern style inspired from many other games.

I'm with you on that count, there's very few sets I've liked since
Burning Crusade, almost nothing in Wrath/Cata, a slightly larger
number in MoP but it's just not really my style. The WoD paladin set
seems to be returning to the TBC feel though, if my main was a pally
I'd be wanting that one.

>And the set bonuses?  Honestly.  It's still just a gear set bonus.  A 
>huge part of the playerpool will see the endgame content anyway and with 
>epics in every slot.  Just at a lower difficulty level.

Yes, but why *take away* what we've had for two years? That's my point
really, I don't greatly care for setbonuses myself, since I rarely
have more than 2-piece bonus (there's always higher ilvl non-set
pieces available), but it's still an option that's being removed.
There's also removal of trinkets, I've no idea what LFR gets in
exchange, I'd hope there's *some* type of trinket available, but who
knows. it's basically turning LFR into dungeons, instead of another
form of raiding, since it no longer has much in common with the other
raids as far as rewards go. 

Guess the elitist whiners got their wish, but it seems daft to punish
a large proportion of players just because a few vocal idiots don't
like others getting lower versions of "their" loot...

Den 01-05-2014 15:06, Catriona R skrev:

> It's entirely possible that they don't like organised raiding, or
> don't have the time to commit to it. I've never done a flex raid, and
> there's plenty pugs on my realm, plus I actually do meet the stupid
> ilvl requirements most use - I just don't enjoy it and don't want to
> dedicate a big chunk of time to it. I still imagine your guildies like
> having the option to get tier pieces in LFR, both in looks and
> setbonuses :-)

Of course everybody wants the best gear.  No doubt.  But again.  I guess 
a good majority of the players who doesnt raid occasionally are fine 
with or at least has accepted their position as they prolly never will 
be able to get their hands on raid items due to real life issues or just 
simply "I enjoy killing a mob and do a quest now and then".
In my guild we have a handful of real-life couples where the other part 
just play the game for an hour or two now a few times a week.

> Yes, but why *take away* what we've had for two years?

It all started in wotlk after winning Wintergrasp.  We got access to the 
small pewpew raid where we could win set bonus gear. :)
I cant talk about Cata as I skipped this expansion completely.

> Guess the elitist whiners got their wish, but it seems daft to punish
> a large proportion of players just because a few vocal idiots don't
> like others getting lower versions of "their" loot...

I imagine most so-called elitist whiners arent that old anyway.  Some 
other just have silly personalities.  So I couldnt care less about them. 
  And dont forget whiners are able to "fill a room" with their negative 
attitude and bad karma despite they are a waste minority.

-- 
Peter T.

<https://elite.frontier.co.uk/>

In article <bsd0r0...@mid.individual.net>,
 Catriona R <catrion...@totalise.co.uk> wrote:

> Oof. That is not going to go down well; I have a strong suspicion that
> far more people regard LFR as their main source of raiding, than feel
> "forced" to run it in addition to regular raiding. Personally, I can
> live with it, LFR is the only raiding I do but it's no great priority
> of mine, I play WoW for the questing and collecting elements
> primarily, infact I only completed SoO once (burned out completing my
> cloak, can't face any more raiding for a while!), so while I'm
> annoyed, it's not that big a deal personally, its main effect will be
> to make me do even less LFR. But to the people who love raiding in LFR
> form, it is enormously unfair to take so much away from them.


Hadn't seen that. I don't care that much for the gear - though I will 
take what I can get. I like the content. Had never really raided in any 
form before the legendary quest and depended on LFR. I just hope it 
doesn't lengthen the queue times for when I do want to raid via LFR.


Brian

Den 02-05-2014 17:09, Fvert skrev:
> I just hope it
> doesn't lengthen the queue times for when I do want to raid via LFR.

You can queue for multiple LFR instances now so it almost feels youre 
joining an LFR instantly.

-- 
Peter T.

<https://elite.frontier.co.uk/>

On Fri, 2 May 2014 17:00:39 +0000 (UTC), Lewis
<g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

>Of course, but Blizzard started listening to the whiny little bitch
>raiders a long time ago and continues to structure end game around their
>whining. It started with PVP gear and has continued ever since.
>
>In WoD, they have eliminated the need for toons to carry multiple sets
>of gear, *unless* they PVP in which case they have to have an entire
>second set of gear.
>
>The whining on this is "all these fake raiders are getting gear that
>looks like ours and it only a few lvls lower. It's unfair to us raiders
>to have other people able to progress in the game."

Yep. I'd have more understanding if it was only the
setbonuses/trinkets (preferably if they just gave lesser setbonuses
that can't be mixed with regular raid gear), but the change to the
looks as well, to me suggests the whiners won, especially given how
really poor the LFR gear looks, it's like greens, not even as good as
a decent dungeon set from earlier days - exactly what the raiders
wanted, of course!

I'm trying to not get too annoyed, since hey, I haven't liked the
looks of tier sets in years anyway, so it doesn't hugely affect me,
but it's just the principle of the thing. Attitudes towards the
non-hardcore had been improving in recent years, this just feels a
backward step, and a totally unnecessary one.

On Fri, 02 May 2014 18:03:09 +0200, "Peter T." <pinoc10@hotmail.cum>
wrote:

>Den 02-05-2014 17:09, Fvert skrev:
>> I just hope it
>> doesn't lengthen the queue times for when I do want to raid via LFR.
>
>You can queue for multiple LFR instances now so it almost feels youre 
>joining an LFR instantly.

Of course that only works if you're not picky which one you want to do
:-) I think it may well affect queue times, raiders won't be dropping
in after the first couple of weeks, and people who do LFR mainly will
have a lot less motivation to bother once they've seen it a couple of
times. Maybe I'll run more alts through this time out, since I'll be
bored on my main quickly, but still, it'll likely make it tougher
overall too as there won't be many well-geared people around to carry
the ones who are crap players/too lazy to actually play properly. I
hope it doesn't go that way though, but it's certainly not a positive
development.

Den 02-05-2014 20:01, Catriona R skrev:

>> You can queue for multiple LFR instances now so it almost feels youre
>> joining an LFR instantly.
>
> Of course that only works if you're not picky which one you want to do
> :-)

Sure.  But if youre farming runestones/titans for the legendary quest 
chain or you just want better gear it really doesnt matter which wing 
and raid youre queueing for.  There is almost an item for every slot in 
every wing in SoO.

> I think it may well affect queue times, raiders won't be dropping
> in after the first couple of weeks, and people who do LFR mainly will
> have a lot less motivation to bother once they've seen it a couple of
> times.

LFR is your bread and butter depending on your goal in the game.  It 
cant be fun all the time.  Especially the legendary quest is just 
ridiculously hard work every week in 2-4 months depending on luck and 
available time.  Just like the endless grinding and farming if you 
wanted to open the gates of ahn'qiraj in Tanaris in vanilla.

> Maybe I'll run more alts through this time out, since I'll be
> bored on my main quickly, but still, it'll likely make it tougher
> overall too as there won't be many well-geared people around to carry
> the ones who are crap players/too lazy to actually play properly. I
> hope it doesn't go that way though, but it's certainly not a positive
> development.

Im lost.  Are you talking about SoO/lfr or the planned raid changes in WoD?

If Blizzard makes this game even easier or the game gets even more 
simplified I will consider my subsription seriously.  Its not about 
being an elitist whiner.  Its about watching real in-game challenges 
disappering in the fog of simpleness.
In MoP we have the legendary questline.  Warlocks has the green fire 
questchain.  Both ends with a useful or vanity reward.  MORE OF THAT, 
PLEASE!!!

-- 
Peter T.

<https://elite.frontier.co.uk/>

On Sat, 03 May 2014 13:35:36 +0200, "Peter T." <pinoc10@hotmail.cum>
wrote:

>Den 02-05-2014 20:01, Catriona R skrev:
>
>>> You can queue for multiple LFR instances now so it almost feels youre
>>> joining an LFR instantly.
>>
>> Of course that only works if you're not picky which one you want to do
>> :-)
>
>Sure.  But if youre farming runestones/titans for the legendary quest 
>chain or you just want better gear it really doesnt matter which wing 
>and raid youre queueing for.  There is almost an item for every slot in 
>every wing in SoO.
>
>> I think it may well affect queue times, raiders won't be dropping
>> in after the first couple of weeks, and people who do LFR mainly will
>> have a lot less motivation to bother once they've seen it a couple of
>> times.
>
>LFR is your bread and butter depending on your goal in the game.  It 
>cant be fun all the time.  Especially the legendary quest is just 
>ridiculously hard work every week in 2-4 months depending on luck and 
>available time.  Just like the endless grinding and farming if you 
>wanted to open the gates of ahn'qiraj in Tanaris in vanilla.

My fear now is that to save the poor dear raiders from feeling obliged
to do LFR for their legendary quest chains when their guild hasn't got
through normal mode, LFR won't get it next time (assuming there is
another chain). I very much hope I'm wrong, I loved having access to
the chain this time out, gave me a lot more purpose in the game having
something like that to work on.

>> Maybe I'll run more alts through this time out, since I'll be
>> bored on my main quickly, but still, it'll likely make it tougher
>> overall too as there won't be many well-geared people around to carry
>> the ones who are crap players/too lazy to actually play properly. I
>> hope it doesn't go that way though, but it's certainly not a positive
>> development.
>
>Im lost.  Are you talking about SoO/lfr or the planned raid changes in WoD?

WoD.

>If Blizzard makes this game even easier or the game gets even more 
>simplified I will consider my subsription seriously.  Its not about 
>being an elitist whiner.  Its about watching real in-game challenges 
>disappering in the fog of simpleness.
>In MoP we have the legendary questline.  Warlocks has the green fire 
>questchain.  Both ends with a useful or vanity reward.  MORE OF THAT, 
>PLEASE!!!

Agreed! I don't want them taking these things *away* from those of us
who aren't in high-end raid guilds, that's all. For most of the
history of the game we never had these things, we've had them this
expansion, and now some are being removed again, I'm worried how far
it'll go.