🚀 go-pugleaf

I read the first article through to the end, and have a few points to make,
some of which you may not wish to hear.

First off, my background: I am a software developer, and worked in the
gaming industry in the early 1980s, when the console games were Atari,
Intellivision and Coleco.  I am familiar with the industry, both from
personal experience, as well as from co-workers still in the industry.  Long
hours for little remuneration are the norm...in fact, if you take the
software industry as a whole, long hours and poorly-managed projects are the
norm.

The desire to drive EA out of business is understandable, but unlikely to
effect significant change.  What will effect change is what happens when
consumers demand a feature in the products they buy: manufacturers are
forced to provide that feature or lose market share.  Think of the employees
at a large company as "consumers" of the product called "employment"...if
the company for which you currently work refuses to provide vacation, decent
medical care or reasonable working conditions, union or no union all
employees have the ability to quit (unless they work for a government agency
like police or Air Traffic Controllers).  You register your disapproval by
taking your talents to another company that provides the employment
conditions you desire.  Just as companies compete for customers, they also
compete for employees, and a company that can't hire anyone will have to
adjust its practices or go out of business.

Long ago, I decided that it was more important to me to find work that I
liked, rather than make a lot of money.  As a result, I gradually moved away
from management positions and ultimately formed my own small company for
software development and training.  The other part of the equation is that I
am in my early 50s, and the things I put up with when I was 30 I would no
longer tolerate...companies are used to abusing younger workers, because (in
many cases) older workers would not put up with it.  Not universally true,
but frequently.

I evaluate all games purely on the basis of the quality of the game.  I have
purchased, and will continue to purchase, games from EA that meet my
standards, such as Medal of Honor.

My suggestion: actively encourage your Signficant Other to get another job
in an industry that is more free of stress.  Decide what kind of lifestyle
you want and need (they are two different things) and move to an area of the
country that supports this.  Write off the employment at EA to experience,
and learn from it what you will tolerate and not tolerate.  And finally,
move on...staying angry when there is something you can do about it is the
absolute shortest route I know to a heart attack, or divorce.

"Dev" <ztrezzedout...@easucks.com> wrote in message
news:TtbHd.111638$Xk.109099@pd7tw3no...
> Please Consider And Boycott All EA Games!
>
> Please read all these articles. There is much to read but worth it to
inform
> yourself. For the good of all gamers and the games
> industry EA needs to go down in flames. If you have any good links feel
free
> to add.
> This affects the entire games industry people and the game players. EA has
> been killing good companies for years. Treats it's workers like shit and
> makes nothing but regurgitated games over and over year after year. Games
> support is almost Non-existent.
> Spread the word and don't buy EA games!
> Sorry for the crossposting but my friends and I here really believe
strongly
> in this.
> We as gamers are all in this together.
>
>
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/ea_spouse/
>
>
>
> http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/041213/135991_1.html
>
> http://www.somethingawful.com/articles.php?a=1507
>
> http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/12/20/151205&tid=187
>
> http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=6016
>
> http://money.cnn.com/2005/01/17/commentary/game_over/column_gaming/
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4180453.stm
>
>
>

On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 17:14:27 +0000, Dev wrote:

> Please Consider And Boycott All EA Games!

You're an ignorant, whining moron.

But you knew that...

-- 
If you're not on the edge, you're taking up too much space.
Linux Registered User #327951

Dev wasted my time on 1/18/2005 12:14 PM with the following:
> The garbage posted before.  I don't feel like quoting it.

 From the top kids:

"Churning out one licensed football game after another doesn't sound 
like challenging much of anything to me; it sounds like a money farm."

Ooooh, so you're saying that EA wants to make money for the games they 
produce.  Gawsh, guess that means other companies just do it for the 
good vibe.  No, you ass, sports games have ALWAYS been remade.  Remember 
Pong?  Football games have been around since the days of the Vectrex and 
even earlier.

Reproducing them is not an evil attempt to make money (although I'm sure 
that the couple million tucked in their pocket isn't a down-side), it's 
simply taking the last game and making them better (or as 'better' as a 
football sim can get)

Besides, teams change, so the games should rightfully change to reflect 
these things.

Player stats, taunts, and general play can be improved by new versions.

Relax.


"I am retaining some anonymity here because I have no illusions about 
what the consequences would be for my family if I was explicit."

Really now?  So you use a service like LiveJournal which would probably 
readily hand over your IP address and allow the big bad corporation to 
track you down?

Honestly, what do you think EA is?  The Italian Mafia?  The Russian Mob? 
  The Chinese Triads?


"[general whining about long hours]"

Ok, nobody put a gun to your flippin head and told you to work at EA.

If you don't like the hours, don't work at the job.

Simple as that.

People are (or should be if they're worth fighting for) smart enough to 
decide what they like and don't like.

What about the people who *like* working at EA?  I'm sure there are 
some.  I'm positive that there are people who you have convieniently 
overlooked who enjoy their job.

I think maybe you don't quite understand the difference between "crunch" 
and "hard work"

The quality of a game is directly proportional to the amount of work put 
into the game.  Corporations have deadlines, thats a given.  Sure, it 
sucks ass to work long hours, but when a company has high standards and 
works hard to meet them, I personally support that.

"EA's attitude toward this -- which is actually a part of company 
policy, it now appears -- has been (in an anonymous quotation that I've 
heard repeated by multiple managers), "If they don't like it, they can 
work someplace else." Put up or shut up and leave: this is the core of 
EA's Human Resources policy. The concept of ethics or compassion or even 
intelligence with regard to getting the most out of one's workforce 
never enters the equation: if they don't want to sacrifice their lives 
and their health and their talent so that a multibillion dollar 
corporation can continue its Godzilla-stomp through the game industry, 
they can work someplace else."

Gee-willy.  They seem to be the ones with their heads firmly screwed on 
here, because thats how it works.  Unless there is a very serious 
violation of ethics at play, you can either talk it over with a 
higher-up or leave.

"The EA Mambo, paired with other giants such as Vivendi, Sony, and 
Microsoft, is rapidly either crushing or absorbing the vast majority of 
the business in game development. A few standalone studios that made 
their fortunes in previous eras -- Blizzard, Bioware, and Id come to 
mind -- manage to still survive, but 2004 saw the collapse of dozens of 
small game studios, no longer able to acquire contracts in the face of 
rapid and massive consolidation of game publishing companies. This is an 
epidemic hardly unfamiliar to anyone working in the industry. Though, of 
course, it is always the option of talent to go outside the industry, 
perhaps venturing into the booming commercial software development 
arena. (Read my tired attempt at sarcasm.)"

Oh, but working at Vivendi, Sony, or Microsoft is out of the question, 
right?  No, you want to work at EA, its your *DREAM*

Once again, a skewed perspective on the situation that completely rules 
out the folly points in your argument.

What about the software development field isn't booming?

Successful software makes for a successful developer.  The only software 
fields that aren't seeing a bit of this success are the ones who don't 
put effort (read: CRUNCH TIME) into their work.

"EA's annual revenue is approximately $2.5 billion. This company is not 
strapped for cash; their labor practices are inexcusable."

Is this a NET revenue, or just how much they pull in?

You have to take into account the money they spend each year (building 
offices, utilities for said offices, employee salary, etc.) to keep the 
machine operating.

"The interesting thing about this is an assumption that most of the 
employees seem to be operating under. Whenever the subject of hours come 
up, inevitably, it seems, someone mentions 'exemption'. They refer to a 
California law that supposedly exempts businesses from having to pay 
overtime to certain 'specialty' employees, including software 
programmers. This is Senate Bill 88. However, Senate Bill 88 
specifically does not apply to the entertainment industry -- television, 
motion picture, and theater industries are specifically mentioned. 
Further, even in software, there is a pay minimum on the exemption: 
those exempt must be paid at least $90,000 annually. I can assure you 
that the majority of EA employees are in fact not in this pay bracket; 
ergo, these practices are not only unethical, they are illegal."

This is a matter for your lawyer, not for posting on Livejournal and 
wasting my time.

Here's the Senate Bill 88: 
http://info.sen.ca.gov/pub/99-00/bill/sen/sb_0051-0100/sb_88_bill_20000919_chaptered.html



I don't even want to read anymore into this.

It is a flagrant waste of our time (as was this entire reply)


Honestly.  Work sucks, thats why it's called WORK.


-- 
Noob - "do you hack?"
Justin - "i hack like a maniac!"
Noob - "do you have digital cable?"
Justin - "i have *ALL* the cables!"

In article <TtbHd.111638$Xk.109099@pd7tw3no>,
 "Dev" <ztrezzedout...@easucks.com> wrote:

>Please Consider And Boycott All EA Games!

   I'll promise not to buy any EA games if you promise not to cross post 
again.
   Mind the followups.

-- 
B.B.           --I am not a goat!       thegoat4 at airmail dot net
                                        http://web2.airmail.net/thegoat4/

Tell your SO to grow up. I generally find that if banging my head against a 
wall hurts the cure is usually to stop doing it and not to complain that the 
wall is too hard.
Seriously I have been in software development 20 years and this stuff is 
just basic psychology and sound business (at least superficially): Putting 
aside the issue of whether or not you want dumb staff what is the smart 
thing to do if you find you can get your staff to work extra hours for 
nothing? Answer: try to get them to work a bit longer obviously! Software 
developers are expensive and this (at least to bean counters) clearly saves 
both time and big bucks. Why wouldn't you do it if they don't resist?

Personally I have almost always refused and it has never done my career any 
harm (I haven't got into management where working stupid hours is virtually 
a badge of honour) but I get a good rate.


In my experience overtime never helps anyway as software is just not 
something you can rush - pressure just makes more errors which take more 
time and there are always hundreds of extra progress meetings which sop up 
most of the extra hours.

>From a practical point of view your SO should do 2 things:
1. Go contract (assuming that is possible in your country. U.S.A. I assume). 
Then you are on an hourly rate and so they can't save money by making you 
work longer. [The usual 'illogical' reason they give for why you should do 
it is because of your 'professionalism'! Try asking a professional doctor 
(not NHS) or lawyer to work extra hours for no money and see how far you 
get![
2. Only an idiot would work in games software and moan about the hours - Any 
fool can tell that they are going to get more than enough geeks willing to 
devote their whole life to the job - just look at the gamers and modders - A 
huge number of them haven't got a life anyway so what's for them to lose.


If your SO worked in some third world sweat shop I might have some sympathy 
but there are plenty of other jobs.

Finally I have to say that I find EA games to be pretty good (to play) so 
I'm not complaining.

"Dev" <ztrezzedout...@easucks.com> wrote in message 
news:TtbHd.111638$Xk.109099@pd7tw3no...
> Please Consider And Boycott All EA Games!
>
> Please read all these articles. There is much to read but worth it to 
> inform
> yourself. For the good of all gamers and the games
> industry EA needs to go down in flames. If you have any good links feel 
> free
> to add.
> This affects the entire games industry people and the game players. EA has
> been killing good companies for years. Treats it's workers like shit and
> makes nothing but regurgitated games over and over year after year. Games
> support is almost Non-existent.
> Spread the word and don't buy EA games!
> Sorry for the crossposting but my friends and I here really believe 
> strongly
> in this.
> We as gamers are all in this together.
>
>
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/ea_spouse/
>
>
>
> http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/041213/135991_1.html
>
> http://www.somethingawful.com/articles.php?a=1507
>
> http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/12/20/151205&tid=187
>
> http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=6016
>
> http://money.cnn.com/2005/01/17/commentary/game_over/column_gaming/
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4180453.stm
>
>
> 

"If they don't like it, they can work someplace else."

Sounds like the democratic thing to do.


"Dev" <ztrezzedout...@easucks.com> wrote in message 
news:TtbHd.111638$Xk.109099@pd7tw3no...
> Please Consider And Boycott All EA Games!
>
> Please read all these articles. There is much to read but worth it to 
> inform
> yourself. For the good of all gamers and the games
> industry EA needs to go down in flames. If you have any good links feel 
> free
> to add.
> This affects the entire games industry people and the game players. EA has
> been killing good companies for years. Treats it's workers like shit and
> makes nothing but regurgitated games over and over year after year. Games
> support is almost Non-existent.
> Spread the word and don't buy EA games!
> Sorry for the crossposting but my friends and I here really believe 
> strongly
> in this.
> We as gamers are all in this together.
>
>
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/ea_spouse/
>
>
>
> http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/041213/135991_1.html
>
> http://www.somethingawful.com/articles.php?a=1507
>
> http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/12/20/151205&tid=187
>
> http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=6016
>
> http://money.cnn.com/2005/01/17/commentary/game_over/column_gaming/
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4180453.stm
>
>
> 

On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 18:29:40 -0500, SnoopJeDi
<snoopjediH...@comcast.net> wrote:

>The quality of a game is directly proportional to the amount of work put 
>into the game.

Definitely not true, as the contrast between a classic like Tetris and
some horrible cowflops like MOO 3 and HOMM 4 proves.

-- Roy L

The only good EA game I've plpayed is MOH.
Even that is now showing its age.

Computer programming is stressful for 2 main reasons:

1.Concentration. It takes a LOT of thought, study and concentration to
program well. When I first took a programming job it hit me like a steam
roller how much concentration is required to do it under pressure.
But I did get used to it after about a year or so. After 3 years I was
mentally knackered and left, none the richer except for wisdom.

2. Deadlines. Middle managers often like setting deadlines that make them
look good (ambitious) but take little or no account of how much actual work
is required by the people actually producing. They don't care as long as you
are beavering away like mad and they will leave you alone(if you're lucky)
to wear yourself out. They love to pour scorn on your efforts even if they
know you had no chance of realistically meeting their deadline without
issues arrising. Being new to the software 'game' means you will inevitably
feel oblidged to work your ass off to show that you can do it. That leaves
you wide open to management exploitation and they do exploit new/younger
workers with relish. You learn with time that having good knowledge of whats
involved in a requested project in terms of complexity and volume of coding
are the best way to stand up for yourself against management intimidation.
But in the end, they can always sack you and take on another load of juniors
who'll gladly thrash themselves for low money.

Life sucks then you die. Unless you're rich.

Uzi

What a fucking retard you are. You start a thread and then don't have the
balls to stick around when people respond.


"Dev" <ztrezzedout...@easucks.com> wrote in message
news:TtbHd.111638$Xk.109099@pd7tw3no...
> Please Consider And Boycott All EA Games!
>
> Please read all these articles. There is much to read but worth it to
inform
> yourself. For the good of all gamers and the games
> industry EA needs to go down in flames. If you have any good links feel
free
> to add.
> This affects the entire games industry people and the game players. EA has
> been killing good companies for years. Treats it's workers like shit and
> makes nothing but regurgitated games over and over year after year. Games
> support is almost Non-existent.
> Spread the word and don't buy EA games!
> Sorry for the crossposting but my friends and I here really believe
strongly
> in this.
> We as gamers are all in this together.
>
>
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/ea_spouse/
>
>
>
> http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/041213/135991_1.html
>
> http://www.somethingawful.com/articles.php?a=1507
>
> http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/12/20/151205&tid=187
>
> http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=6016
>
> http://money.cnn.com/2005/01/17/commentary/game_over/column_gaming/
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4180453.stm
>
>
>

<ro...@telus.net> wrote in message news:41ee93c0.1379835@news.telus.net...
> On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 18:29:40 -0500, SnoopJeDi
> <snoopjediH...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> >The quality of a game is directly proportional to the amount of work put
> >into the game.
>
> Definitely not true, as the contrast between a classic like Tetris and
> some horrible cowflops like MOO 3 and HOMM 4 proves.

All in the eye of the beholder, I can stand to play tetris about 3 seconds
before I am bored out of my mind, Moo3 and Homm4 might last at least a
minute longer.

On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 21:27:02 -0600, "john graesser" <grae...@tca.net>
wrote:

>
><ro...@telus.net> wrote in message news:41ee93c0.1379835@news.telus.net...
>> On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 18:29:40 -0500, SnoopJeDi
>> <snoopjediH...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>> >The quality of a game is directly proportional to the amount of work put
>> >into the game.
>>
>> Definitely not true, as the contrast between a classic like Tetris and
>> some horrible cowflops like MOO 3 and HOMM 4 proves.
>
>All in the eye of the beholder, I can stand to play tetris about 3 seconds
>before I am bored out of my mind, Moo3 and Homm4 might last at least a
>minute longer.
>

As far as I've played this game, it's just classic Half-Life with
better graphics. Run and shoot, run and shoot. Yes, there is better
charcter animation, with the fully articulatred models, and the real
word dynamic properties for the inanimate objects, and the photoreal
textures for facial features of the avatars, but as far as character
interaction and AI are concerned, it's all old stuff. Of course I'm
only in the 4th chapter so I'm assuming it will get better. We'll see.

On that special day, , (ro...@telus.net) said...

> On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 18:29:40 -0500, SnoopJeDi
> <snoopjediH...@comcast.net> wrote:
> 
> >The quality of a game is directly proportional to the amount of work put 
> >into the game.
> 
> Definitely not true, as the contrast between a classic like Tetris and
> some horrible cowflops like MOO 3 and HOMM 4 proves.

Did you know, that Far Cry was essentially done by three friends, on 
their own behalf, who coded the engine and only then found a 
distributor? 


Gabriele Neukam 

Gabriele.Spam...@t-online.de 


-- 
Ah, Information. A property, too valuable these days, to give it away, 
just so, at no cost. 

"Gabriele Neukam" <Gabriele.Spam...@t-online.de> wrote in message 
news:csomda$o4k$00$1@news.t-online.com...
> On that special day, , (ro...@telus.net) said...
>
>> On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 18:29:40 -0500, SnoopJeDi
>> <snoopjediH...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>> >The quality of a game is directly proportional to the amount of work put
>> >into the game.
>>
>> Definitely not true, as the contrast between a classic like Tetris and
>> some horrible cowflops like MOO 3 and HOMM 4 proves.
>
> Did you know, that Far Cry was essentially done by three friends, on
> their own behalf, who coded the engine and only then found a
> distributor?
>
>

You mean the engine was done by 3 friends on their own behalf. Did you know 
most of the quake engines were done by ONE man, John Carmak (sp??).

The engine is one of the smalles pieces of the pie when doing a game (this 
is in relative terms of course)