🚀 go-pugleaf

On 2018-05-16, Gareth's Downstairs Computer
<headstone255.but.n...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Hell is being brought in as a contractor to take over the
> company's only product when its author has left to pursue
> his career elsewhere and proved to be a probably-underpaid
> engineer but a grossly-overpaid self-taught junior programmer
> who produced several pages of completely undocumented code
> with a mixture of structured programming and go-to-labels
> all intertwined with no indenting.
>
> BTDTWTTS.

Another variation is being brought in to maintain code which
was written 10 years ago by someone who is now the department
head and who hasn't written code in years.  The real hell
happens when said department head finds out what you've done
to his precious spaghetti.

-- 
/~\  cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ /  I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
 X   Top-posted messages will probably be ignored.  See RFC1855.
/ \  Fight low-contrast text in web pages!  http://contrastrebellion.com

On Wed, 16 May 2018 19:13:21 +0100, Gareth's Downstairs Computer
<headstone255.but.n...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Hell is being brought in as a contractor to take over the
>company's only product when its author has left to pursue
>his career elsewhere and proved to be a probably-underpaid
>engineer but a grossly-overpaid self-taught junior programmer
>who produced several pages of completely undocumented code
>with a mixture of structured programming and go-to-labels
>all intertwined with no indenting.
>
>BTDTWTTS.

I have a better one...

Manager who kept trying to get us to violate the laws of physics,
because he was special, and therefore we could do it if he needed it
done.

I had to bite my lip to keep from laughing at the moron. Our boss took
the problem to his manager, and we were told to not worry sbout it.

On 2018-05-16 20:13, Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote:
> Hell is being brought in as a contractor to take over the
> company's only product when its author has left to pursue
> his career elsewhere and proved to be a probably-underpaid
> engineer but a grossly-overpaid self-taught junior programmer
> who produced several pages of completely undocumented code
> with a mixture of structured programming and go-to-labels
> all intertwined with no indenting.

Or management not paying the time to write the docs. This includes not
paying the time to write comments in the code. Management requiring the
code to be ready in so many hours no matter what. Well, they got what
they deserved.

> 
> BTDTWTTS.


-- 
Cheers, Carlos.

On 2018-05-16 20:21, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2018-05-16, Gareth's Downstairs Computer
> <headstone255.but.n...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
>> Hell is being brought in as a contractor to take over the
>> company's only product when its author has left to pursue
>> his career elsewhere and proved to be a probably-underpaid
>> engineer but a grossly-overpaid self-taught junior programmer
>> who produced several pages of completely undocumented code
>> with a mixture of structured programming and go-to-labels
>> all intertwined with no indenting.
>>
>> BTDTWTTS.
> 
> Another variation is being brought in to maintain code which
> was written 10 years ago by someone who is now the department
> head and who hasn't written code in years.  The real hell
> happens when said department head finds out what you've done
> to his precious spaghetti.

Another variation: being brought in to maintain code written a month
ago, with comments deleted, variables having sort names such as a, b, c,
and constant names replaced with the values, so that you do not know
when writing to the window field to which field goes which thing.

And then having the manager complaining "how is this not ready in a
week? I only asked you to add one field more".

-- 
Cheers, Carlos.

On 16 May 2018 18:21:41 GMT, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
wrote:

>On 2018-05-16, Gareth's Downstairs Computer
><headstone255.but.n...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Hell is being brought in as a contractor to take over the
>> company's only product when its author has left to pursue
>> his career elsewhere and proved to be a probably-underpaid
>> engineer but a grossly-overpaid self-taught junior programmer
>> who produced several pages of completely undocumented code
>> with a mixture of structured programming and go-to-labels
>> all intertwined with no indenting.
>>
>> BTDTWTTS.
>
>Another variation is being brought in to maintain code which
>was written 10 years ago by someone who is now the department
>head and who hasn't written code in years.  The real hell
>happens when said department head finds out what you've done
>to his precious spaghetti.

Take what Gareth said, and add to the end of it "in APL".

J. Clarke <jclarke...@gmail.com> writes:

> On 16 May 2018 18:21:41 GMT, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>>On 2018-05-16, Gareth's Downstairs Computer
>><headstone255.but.n...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hell is being brought in as a contractor to take over the
>>> company's only product when its author has left to pursue
>>> his career elsewhere and proved to be a probably-underpaid
>>> engineer but a grossly-overpaid self-taught junior programmer
>>> who produced several pages of completely undocumented code
>>> with a mixture of structured programming and go-to-labels
>>> all intertwined with no indenting.
>>>
>>> BTDTWTTS.
>>
>>Another variation is being brought in to maintain code which
>>was written 10 years ago by someone who is now the department
>>head and who hasn't written code in years.  The real hell
>>happens when said department head finds out what you've done
>>to his precious spaghetti.
>
> Take what Gareth said, and add to the end of it "in APL".

You can delete everything between "maintain" and "APL".

Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote:
> Hell is being brought in as a contractor to take over the
> company's only product when its author has left to pursue
> his career elsewhere and proved to be a probably-underpaid
> engineer but a grossly-overpaid self-taught junior programmer
> who produced several pages of completely undocumented code
> with a mixture of structured programming and go-to-labels
> all intertwined with no indenting.
>
> BTDTWTTS.

  the dream i had last night.

  i was at old work site and took system down by
accident and everyone was scrambling to figure out
what happened and doing recovery.  this is back in
the day when reboot and reload from tapes took 
12-14hrs if things went right...

  luckily this never happened for real, but i did
have some crashes and power issues that would take
the system down once in a while.  eventually all
replaced by mini computer and life was a lot easier
after that (being able to have any kind of UPS to
ride out power issues and if needed shut down in a
well defined state).


  songbird

On 2018-05-16 2:13 PM, Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote:
> Hell is . . .

Being told that they can't afford the time to do all the steps like,

- Design then write
- Functional requirements (Not in that order)
- Testing

The worst is mind based requirements. I really should have taken "Mind 
reading 101"

Even worst "I don't know what I want but make it happen"

or "I can't tell you who the customer is or what they need, but it has 
to be delivered"

I have learned a lot about NDA and doing projects for customers.

They range from "Don't tell and I won't tell, lets get the project done" to
"I own everything you do or think of by all members of the next 3 
generations in your family"

You know the first NDA project will work just fine and the second will 
be a disaster.

w..

On Thu, 17 May 2018 08:22:25 -0400, Walter Banks
<wal...@bytecraft.com> wrote:

>On 2018-05-16 2:13 PM, Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote:
>> Hell is . . .
>
>Being told that they can't afford the time to do all the steps like,
>
>- Design then write
>- Functional requirements (Not in that order)
>- Testing
>
>The worst is mind based requirements. I really should have taken "Mind 
>reading 101"
>
>Even worst "I don't know what I want but make it happen"
>
>or "I can't tell you who the customer is or what they need, but it has 
>to be delivered"
>
>I have learned a lot about NDA and doing projects for customers.
>
>They range from "Don't tell and I won't tell, lets get the project done" to
>"I own everything you do or think of by all members of the next 3 
>generations in your family"
>
>You know the first NDA project will work just fine and the second will 
>be a disaster.
>
>w..

Yeah, I got told that 'we own what you think and do, even at home'. I
smiled, signed the document, and ignored them. I was asked if I was
doing any programming at home, I replied no, but I am taking photos of
my dice collection. They thought I was 'being argumentive', but I
showed them the web site, and then they stopped bothering me.

Did they say I was exccentric ? Well, not exactly.

Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote:

> Hell is being brought in as a contractor to take over the
> company's only product when its author has left to pursue
> his career elsewhere and proved to be a probably-underpaid
> engineer but a grossly-overpaid self-taught junior programmer
> who produced several pages of completely undocumented code
> with a mixture of structured programming and go-to-labels
> all intertwined with no indenting.
> 
> BTDTWTTS.

I preferred to work in hardware.  It is easier to "program" and debug than 
that newfangled software you talk about.


Freddy,
( insert smoking irony meter here )
-- 
You pay sales tax and deposit charge if applicable.

/|>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>\|
/|  I may be demented                          \|
/|                      but I'm not crazy!     \|
/|<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<\|
*    SPAyM trap:  there is no X in my address   *

On 2018-05-16 2:13 PM, Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote:
> Hell is being brought in as a contractor to take over the
> company's only product when its author has left to pursue
> his career elsewhere and proved to be a probably-underpaid
> engineer but a grossly-overpaid self-taught junior programmer
> who produced several pages of completely undocumented code
> with a mixture of structured programming and go-to-labels
> all intertwined with no indenting.

Back in my days as a co-op student, I was asked to "finish up"
some details of a program written by a consultant whose
contract was running out.
Well, the program had major design flaws and hadn't a hope
of actually working as written.

Also I spent there were consultants working on
a separate project.  They would come into the computer
centre complaining that their program didn't work
and it must be a operating system bug. I'd spend time
to find dumb bugs like uninitialized variables,
and adding a small delta to a single precision
floating point number until the least significant
bit of the variable was more than the delta.

I've always been sceptical of projects written
by outside consultants ever since.  There recent
fiascos with new government payroll systems
in Canada and Australia have just confirmed
my belief in having permanent in-house staff doing
things.

On 18/05/2018 17:24, Alan Bowler wrote:
> 
> I've always been sceptical of projects written
> by outside consultants ever since. 

There are those of us who take on the client as
though we were one of his employees, and,
mirabile dictu, also end up training them as
to what makes for a well structured readable
program.

Gareth's Downstairs Computer
<headstone255.but.n...@yahoo.com> writes:

> On 18/05/2018 17:24, Alan Bowler wrote:
>>
>> I've always been sceptical of projects written
>> by outside consultants ever since. 
>
> There are those of us who take on the client as
> though we were one of his employees, and,
> mirabile dictu, also end up training them as
> to what makes for a well structured readable
> program.

I was a consultant for 25 years and I believe
I exerted a positive influence on the staff of
every client.

Besides doing good work on the project itself.

Of course if a client contracted with EDS, AA,
they got what they deserved.

-- 
Dan Espen

Alan Bowler <atbo...@thinkage.ca> wrote:
> On 2018-05-16 2:13 PM, Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote:
>> Hell is being brought in as a contractor to take over the
>> company's only product when its author has left to pursue
>> his career elsewhere and proved to be a probably-underpaid
>> engineer but a grossly-overpaid self-taught junior programmer
>> who produced several pages of completely undocumented code
>> with a mixture of structured programming and go-to-labels
>> all intertwined with no indenting.
> 
> Back in my days as a co-op student, I was asked to "finish up"
> some details of a program written by a consultant whose
> contract was running out.
> Well, the program had major design flaws and hadn't a hope
> of actually working as written.
> 
> Also I spent there were consultants working on
> a separate project.  They would come into the computer
> centre complaining that their program didn't work
> and it must be a operating system bug. I'd spend time
> to find dumb bugs like uninitialized variables,
> and adding a small delta to a single precision
> floating point number until the least significant
> bit of the variable was more than the delta.
> 
> I've always been sceptical of projects written
> by outside consultants ever since.  There recent
> fiascos with new government payroll systems
> in Canada and Australia have just confirmed
> my belief in having permanent in-house staff doing
> things.
> 

IME they propose to use people with a lot of experience who will split
their time and may do little or nothing on YOUR project. Then they bring in
inexperienced, low-level people to actually do the work.

-- 
Pete

On Friday, May 18, 2018 at 3:45:46 PM UTC-4, Peter Flass wrote:

> IME they propose to use people with a lot of experience who will split
> their time and may do little or nothing on YOUR project. Then they bring in
> inexperienced, low-level people to actually do the work.

+1

Yes.  The contractors wow you in the solicitation phase with some
really talented whiz-bang people.  As you said, after they get the
project, you never see the sharp people again, and instead deal with
kids right out of school with zero experience and sometimes very
little training, too.  The old Big Eight* firms would send us kids
with degrees in English or other non-related subjects and give them
a whirlwind class in COBOL and set them loose.

Yet high management would worship them because they were "Big Eight".


* I believe now it is the Big Four.

On 2018-05-18, Alan Bowler <atbo...@thinkage.ca> wrote:

> I've always been sceptical of projects written
> by outside consultants ever since.  There recent
> fiascos with new government payroll systems
> in Canada and Australia have just confirmed
> my belief in having permanent in-house staff doing
> things.

I've cleaned up enough messes left behind by consultants
that I really appreciate those Dilbert cartoons where
Dogbert is involved.  Too often I've seen cases where
a consultant has come in, written a piece of garbage,
then skipped out with the money, leaving us to pick up
the pieces.

I'm not saying that there aren't good consultants out there.
But to paraphrase that old lawyer joke, 90% of consultants
give the other 10% a bad name.

-- 
/~\  cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ /  I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
 X   Top-posted messages will probably be ignored.  See RFC1855.
/ \  Fight low-contrast text in web pages!  http://contrastrebellion.com

On Fri, 18 May 2018 14:39:40 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Gareth's Downstairs Computer
><headstone255.but.n...@yahoo.com> writes:
>
>> On 18/05/2018 17:24, Alan Bowler wrote:
>>>
>>> I've always been sceptical of projects written
>>> by outside consultants ever since. 
>>
>> There are those of us who take on the client as
>> though we were one of his employees, and,
>> mirabile dictu, also end up training them as
>> to what makes for a well structured readable
>> program.
>
>I was a consultant for 25 years and I believe
>I exerted a positive influence on the staff of
>every client.
>
>Besides doing good work on the project itself.
>
>Of course if a client contracted with EDS, AA,
>they got what they deserved.

If you're working on code that does something that one person can
understand in its entirety in a few days or weeks of study then you
can be a successful consultant.  I've been working the job I have now
for three years and I still understand maybe 25 percent of what I have
to deal with.

On 19/05/2018 02:17, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Fri, 18 May 2018 14:39:40 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> 
>> Gareth's Downstairs Computer
>> <headstone255.but.n...@yahoo.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 18/05/2018 17:24, Alan Bowler wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I've always been sceptical of projects written
>>>> by outside consultants ever since.
>>>
>>> There are those of us who take on the client as
>>> though we were one of his employees, and,
>>> mirabile dictu, also end up training them as
>>> to what makes for a well structured readable
>>> program.
>>
>> I was a consultant for 25 years and I believe
>> I exerted a positive influence on the staff of
>> every client.
>>
>> Besides doing good work on the project itself.
>>
>> Of course if a client contracted with EDS, AA,
>> they got what they deserved.
> 
> If you're working on code that does something that one person can
> understand in its entirety in a few days or weeks of study then you
> can be a successful consultant.  I've been working the job I have now
> for three years and I still understand maybe 25 percent of what I have
> to deal with.
> 

"The chap who left could have solved this problem in half an hour,
so why does it take you 3 days?"

Moral - pay whatever it takes to keep on the staff that amazing
one-man-band self-taught gardener-turned-programmer.

On 19/05/2018 07:43, Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote:
> On 19/05/2018 02:17, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Fri, 18 May 2018 14:39:40 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Gareth's Downstairs Computer
>>> <headstone255.but.n...@yahoo.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> On 18/05/2018 17:24, Alan Bowler wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I've always been sceptical of projects written
>>>>> by outside consultants ever since.
>>>>
>>>> There are those of us who take on the client as
>>>> though we were one of his employees, and,
>>>> mirabile dictu, also end up training them as
>>>> to what makes for a well structured readable
>>>> program.
>>>
>>> I was a consultant for 25 years and I believe
>>> I exerted a positive influence on the staff of
>>> every client.
>>>
>>> Besides doing good work on the project itself.
>>>
>>> Of course if a client contracted with EDS, AA,
>>> they got what they deserved.
>>
>> If you're working on code that does something that one person can
>> understand in its entirety in a few days or weeks of study then you
>> can be a successful consultant.  I've been working the job I have now
>> for three years and I still understand maybe 25 percent of what I have
>> to deal with.
>>
> 
> "The chap who left could have solved this problem in half an hour,
> so why does it take you 3 days?"
> 
> Moral - pay whatever it takes to keep on the staff that amazing
> one-man-band self-taught gardener-turned-programmer.
> 
> 
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topicsearchin/uk.radio.amateur/westinghouse/uk.radio.amateur/Y3EgCLe-TVA



-- 

Suspect someone is claiming a benefit under false pretences? Incapacity
Benefit or Personal Independence Payment when they don't need it? They 
are depriving those in real need!

https://www.gov.uk/report-benefit-fraud

On 18/05/2018 18:31, Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote:
> On 18/05/2018 17:24, Alan Bowler wrote:
>>
>> I've always been sceptical of projects written
>> by outside consultants ever since. 
> 
> There are those of us who take on the client as
> though we were one of his employees, and,
> mirabile dictu, also end up training them as
> to what makes for a well structured readable
> program.
> 

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topicsearchin/uk.radio.amateur/westinghouse/uk.radio.amateur/Y3EgCLe-TVA
-- 

Suspect someone is claiming a benefit under false pretences? Incapacity
Benefit or Personal Independence Payment when they don't need it? They 
are depriving those in real need!

https://www.gov.uk/report-benefit-fraud

In article <648714970.548365395.1588...@news.eternal-september.org>,
Peter Flass  <peter...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>IME they propose to use people with a lot of experience who will split
>their time and may do little or nothing on YOUR project. Then they bring in
>inexperienced, low-level people to actually do the work.
>
>-- 
>Pete

Sounds like IBM Global Services when I joined them for a short time in
the 90s...

Geniuses out of Boulder Colorado came in and did the proposals and setup
on the sysadmin/backup (tsm) etc... then left the untrained kids from 
community college in Boulder to support the outside sysadmins hired with 
no turnover or docs to run the live stuff and be on call 24x7.

Glad to get out of that after a short while.

Bill

On Friday, May 18, 2018 at 6:21:14 PM UTC-4, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> I've cleaned up enough messes left behind by consultants
> that I really appreciate those Dilbert cartoons where
> Dogbert is involved.  Too often I've seen cases where
> a consultant has come in, written a piece of garbage,
> then skipped out with the money, leaving us to pick up
> the pieces.

Yes.  Before high mgmt wise up, they thought the "Big Eight"
accounting firm consultants were the best and hired them
for several major projects.  In several cases, the in-house
staff had to clean up the mess left by the supposedly expert
programmers.


> I'm not saying that there aren't good consultants out there.
> But to paraphrase that old lawyer joke, 90% of consultants
> give the other 10% a bad name.

In certain situations, there may be a need for technical
skills that inhouse staff does not have; there a consultant
can be useful.  Also, there are some major projects where
a bunch of coders are needed just for a short time.

IMHO, some firms or independents offer the best service.

pechter@ascii.(none) (William Pechter) writes:
> Sounds like IBM Global Services when I joined them for a short time in
> the 90s...
>
> Geniuses out of Boulder Colorado came in and did the proposals and setup
> on the sysadmin/backup (tsm) etc... then left the untrained kids from 
> community college in Boulder to support the outside sysadmins hired with 
> no turnover or docs to run the live stuff and be on call 24x7.

trivia: late 70s I did CMSBACK for internal datacenters ... some old
email
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/lhwemail.html#cmsback

it went through several internal releases and then distributed (PC &
workstation) client support was added ... and released (from San
Jose/Almaden Research) to customers as workstation datasave (WDSF). It was then
picked up by the disk division ... when IBM was being re-orged into the
13 "baby blues" (in preperation for breaking up the company) ... and the
disk division had been rebranded ADSTAR and WDSF was rebranded ADSM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Tivoli_Storage_Manager#History

while new CEO reversed the overall breakup ... the disk division was
eventually still unloaded ... and ADSM was transferred to Tivoli part of
IBM and rebranded TSM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Tivoli_Storage_Manager#Product_details

posts mentioning backup/archive
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submain.html#backup

note beltway bandits made fine science of better monetizing true domain
experts by teaching project formula classes to bunch of new graduates who
are the face of the workforce on projects ... with the true domain
expert showing up rarely or never.

saw huge upswing last decade with big uptic in outsourcing to beltway
bandits and government contractors. part was their limitations on
lobbying congress ... private-equity buying up some of the entities and
apparently no lobbying restriction on private equity owners (possibly
contributing was contacts with former employee, now president)

Barbarians at the Capitol: Private Equity, Public Enemy
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2007/10/barbarians-capitol-private-equity-public-enemy/

Lou Gerstner, former ceo of ibm, now heads the Carlyle Group, a
Washington-based global private equity firm whose 2006 revenues of $87
billion were just a few billion below ibm's. Carlyle has boasted George
H.W. Bush, George W. Bush, and former Secretary of State James Baker III
on its employee roster.

... snip ...

including buying the beltway bandit that will employ snowden

the next innovation was the rapidly spreading "success of failure"
culture, a sequence of failures more profit than immediate success
http://www.govexec.com/excellence/management-matters/2007/04/the-success-of-failure/24107/

so large number of low-skilled means lots more gov. contracts, lower
salary costs as well as excuse for failures.

intelligence, 70% of the budget and over half the people (including
private-equity owned company that employed Snowden)
http://www.investingdaily.com/17693/spies-like-us

former AMEX president posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submisc.html#gerstner
private equity posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submisc.html#private.equity
success of failure posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submisc.html#success.of.failure

note also father of the president, previously former director of CIA,
vice-president, and then (also) president, in the 80s (while VP)
repeatedly claimed no knowledge of
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Contra_affair
because he was fulltime administration point person deregulating
financial industry ... creating S&L crisis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savings_and_loan_crisis
along with other members of his family
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savings_and_loan_crisis#Silverado_Savings_and_Loan
and another
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D0CE0D81E3BF937A25753C1A966958260

last decade, another family member presides over the economic mess, 70
times larger than the S&L crisis, proportionally there should have been
70,000 criminal convictions (with jailtimes), so far nobody has even
been charged.

s&l crisis posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submisc.html#s&l.crisis
economic mess posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submisc.html#economic.mess

-- 
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

> Yeah, I got told that 'we own what you think and do, even at home'.
.

You should've said, "sweet. enjoy your new fetish porn collection then."


-- 
Usenet Reader for Android
http://android.newsgroupstats.hk

> Yet high management would worship them because they were "Big Eight".
> * I believe now it is the Big Four.

For the edification of an outsider, who were the big 8? Who are the big 4?

On 2018-05-19, hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com <hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:

> In certain situations, there may be a need for technical
> skills that inhouse staff does not have; there a consultant
> can be useful.  Also, there are some major projects where
> a bunch of coders are needed just for a short time.
>
> IMHO, some firms or independents offer the best service.

Perhaps.  But even in these cases, a consultant needs more
than the gift of the blarney if disasters are to be avoided.

-- 
/~\  cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ /  I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
 X   Top-posted messages will probably be ignored.  See RFC1855.
/ \  Fight low-contrast text in web pages!  http://contrastrebellion.com

"RS Wood" <r...@therandymon.com> writes:
> For the edification of an outsider, who were the big 8? Who are the big 4?

re:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2018d.html#9 Hell is ... ?

accounting firm wiki
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Four_accounting_firms

Big Eight
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Four_accounting_firms#Big_Eight
Big Six
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Four_accounting_firms#Big_Six
Big Five
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Four_accounting_firms#Big_Five
and finally Big Four
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Four_accounting_firms#Big_Four

The Enron collapse and ensuing investigation prompted scrutiny of their
financial reporting, which was audited by Arthur Andersen. Arthur
Andersen was eventually indicted for obstruction of justice for
shredding documents related to the audit in the 2001 Enron scandal.

... snip ...

Enron Scandal
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Enron_scandal

Note I've mentioned before working on both commercial (with RDBMS
vendors) and scientific/technical (with national labs) cluster scaleup
as part of our HA/CMP product
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_High_Availability_Cluster_Multiprocessing
past posts
http://www.garlic.com/subtopic.html#hacmp

old post mentioning Jan1992 meeting in Ellison's conference room
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/95.html#13

a few weeks later, IBM transfers cluster scaleup, announces as
supercomputer for technical/scientific *ONLY* and we are told that we
can't work on anything with more than four processors. A few months
later we depart IBM.

Later, two of the Oracle people (referenced at the Jan1992 meeting) have
left and are at small client/server startup responsible for something
called "commerce server". We are brought in as consultants because they
want to do payment transactions on the server, the startup had also
invented this technology they called "SSL" they want to use, the result
is now frequently called "electronic commerce". Location reference in
Mountain view
http://allthingsd.com/20100826/tonight-the-lights-go-down-on-netscapes-silicon-valley-hq/

they start undergoing rapid growth and they hire Anderson (some company
involved in enron) who brings in a bunch of programmers, they are housed
in large warehouse bldg to rear/side of the main bldg ... with cubicles
setup up. Part of the issue is that the accounting firms were running
consulting business beside the audit business ... contributing to
conflict of interests.

Note that later, rhetoric on floor of congress was that Sarbanes-Oxley
would prevent future ENRONs and guarantee that executives and auditors
did jailtime, however it required SEC to do something.

Possible because GAO didn't believe SEC was doing anything, they start
doing reports of fraudulent public company financial filings, even show
that they increase after SOX goes into effect.

ENRON posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submisc.html#enron
Sarbanes-Oxley posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submisc.html#sarbanes-oxley
public company fraudulent financial reporting posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submisc.html#financial.reporting.fraud

still at it:

New Leak Reveals Luxembourg Tax Deals for Disney, Koch Brothers Empire
Latest "Lux Leaks" files obtained by ICIJ disclose secret tax structures
sought by "Big 4" accounting giants for brand name international
companies.
https://www.icij.org/investigations/luxembourg-leaks/

tax evasion, tax fraud, tax avoidance, tax haven posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submisc.html#tax.evasion

-- 
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

On 20/05/2018 03:12, RS Wood wrote:
>> Yeah, I got told that 'we own what you think and do, even at home'.
> .
> 
> You should've said, "sweet. enjoy your new fetish porn collection then."
> 
> 

Or demanded overtime pay for your home office jobs!

Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:

> On 2018-05-19, hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com <hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>
>> In certain situations, there may be a need for technical
>> skills that inhouse staff does not have; there a consultant
>> can be useful.  Also, there are some major projects where
>> a bunch of coders are needed just for a short time.
>>
>> IMHO, some firms or independents offer the best service.
>
> Perhaps.  But even in these cases, a consultant needs more
> than the gift of the blarney if disasters are to be avoided.

I sure don't have the gift of blarney.  That's for the salesmen.
I relied on honesty and talent.  My employer understood fully that
when I showed up at the client site, some of the salesman
promises would have to be taken back. 

-- 
Dan Espen

On 20/05/2018 16:49, Dan Espen wrote:
> 
> I sure don't have the gift of blarney.  That's for the salesmen.
> I relied on honesty and talent.  My employer understood fully that
> when I showed up at the client site, some of the salesman
> promises would have to be taken back.

Worked at one place where Plessey was a customer and the
salesman had sold the impossible, which we in development
referred to as PlesNaus.

That certain salesman burst into our office one day, desperate
for any documentation to pass onto Plessey to confirm progress
on the project. Papers were bundled up and sent on.

Some days later, Plessey contacted our bosses being intrigued
as to the meaning of PlesNaus  :-)

On 2018-05-20, Dan Espen <dan1...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
>
>> On 2018-05-19, hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com <hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>>
>>> In certain situations, there may be a need for technical
>>> skills that inhouse staff does not have; there a consultant
>>> can be useful.  Also, there are some major projects where
>>> a bunch of coders are needed just for a short time.
>>>
>>> IMHO, some firms or independents offer the best service.
>>
>> Perhaps.  But even in these cases, a consultant needs more
>> than the gift of the blarney if disasters are to be avoided.
>
> I sure don't have the gift of blarney.  That's for the salesmen.
> I relied on honesty and talent.  My employer understood fully that
> when I showed up at the client site, some of the salesman
> promises would have to be taken back. 

You were lucky.  I quit one job when I realized that my duty was to
keep the outlandish promises that salesmen made.  Typical dialogue:

Salesman: Celebration!  I landed the account!  All I had to do was
          promise them <x>, <y>, <z> ...

Techies:  You WHAT?!

The first time we ate a man-year on a project, I swore that if it
happened again I'd be gone.  Not only did it happen again, it was
the same salesman who was responsible.  (He left halfway through,
I lasted almost to the end and moonlighted the rest.)

-- 
/~\  cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ /  I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
 X   Top-posted messages will probably be ignored.  See RFC1855.
/ \  Fight low-contrast text in web pages!  http://contrastrebellion.com

On Saturday, May 19, 2018 at 10:18:13 PM UTC-4, RS Wood wrote:
> > Yet high management would worship them because they were "Big Eight".
> > * I believe now it is the Big Four.
> 
> For the edification of an outsider, who were the big 8? Who are the big 4?

They were the biggest accounting firms, who would audit the largest
corporations.  They had a very prestigious reputation.  Kids coming
out of college would want to work for them--good career foundation.

Through mergers and the Enron scandal, I believe it is down to the
Big Four.  The Enron scandal tarnished their lustre a bit.

On Sunday, May 20, 2018 at 11:49:29 AM UTC-4, Dan Espen wrote:

> > Perhaps.  But even in these cases, a consultant needs more
> > than the gift of the blarney if disasters are to be avoided.
> 
> I sure don't have the gift of blarney.  That's for the salesmen.
> I relied on honesty and talent.  My employer understood fully that
> when I showed up at the client site, some of the salesman
> promises would have to be taken back. 

Having good communication skills and able to present an 
intelligent, organized, and interesting presentation, 
especially of technical material, is a very valuable skill, 
and a lot of programmers don't have it.

Some programmers take seminars or training in public speaking
and pick up useful skills they didn't even know about, and how
to avoid distracting habits (like jingling keys/change while
speaking, having the talk properly organized, noting timing, 
giving not too much detail, etc.)

Many technical people did not care for their schoolwork in
public-speaking assignments.  

Today, with video common, someone can film their talk and play it back
and see how they come off.

This is all different than the "gift of blarney" of salesman
presenting B/S that they don't even know what it means.

IBMers were well trained in this.  Mentioned before was the
big difference between IBMers and representatives from other
computer firms.  Amazing that the other companies never caught
on, it was not a secret.

(But then I'm amazed that Burger King can't run its outlets as
well as McDonald's does, despite 50 years of experience.)

On Mon, 21 May 2018 10:36:24 -0700 (PDT), hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>On Sunday, May 20, 2018 at 11:49:29 AM UTC-4, Dan Espen wrote:
>
>> > Perhaps.  But even in these cases, a consultant needs more
>> > than the gift of the blarney if disasters are to be avoided.
>> 
>> I sure don't have the gift of blarney.  That's for the salesmen.
>> I relied on honesty and talent.  My employer understood fully that
>> when I showed up at the client site, some of the salesman
>> promises would have to be taken back. 
>
>Having good communication skills and able to present an 
>intelligent, organized, and interesting presentation, 
>especially of technical material, is a very valuable skill, 
>and a lot of programmers don't have it.
>
>Some programmers take seminars or training in public speaking
>and pick up useful skills they didn't even know about, and how
>to avoid distracting habits (like jingling keys/change while
>speaking, having the talk properly organized, noting timing, 
>giving not too much detail, etc.)
>
>Many technical people did not care for their schoolwork in
>public-speaking assignments.  
>
>Today, with video common, someone can film their talk and play it back
>and see how they come off.
>
>This is all different than the "gift of blarney" of salesman
>presenting B/S that they don't even know what it means.
>
>IBMers were well trained in this.  Mentioned before was the
>big difference between IBMers and representatives from other
>computer firms.  Amazing that the other companies never caught
>on, it was not a secret.
>
>(But then I'm amazed that Burger King can't run its outlets as
>well as McDonald's does, despite 50 years of experience.)

Yeah, you can get stale food outside main meal times at Burger King,
but not at McDonalds.

re:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2018d.html#11 Hell is ... ?

more from "still at it"

The financial scandal no one is talking about
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/may/29/the-financial-scandal-no-one-is-talking-about-big-four-accountancy-firms?

-- 
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

On 2018-05-29, Anne & Lynn Wheeler <ly...@garlic.com> wrote:
>
> re:
> http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2018d.html#11 Hell is ... ?
>
> more from "still at it"
>
> The financial scandal no one is talking about
> https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/may/29/the-financial-scandal-no-one-is-talking-about-big-four-accountancy-firms?
>
Great article, thanks for posting.

I work with three of those behemoths, and they are huge, unwieldy, and for
the moment, seemingly unstoppable.