🚀 go-pugleaf

On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 12:05:44 -0700 (PDT), hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>
> In the 1960s, the electric power industry pushed for all-electric
> homes--where all appliances, including heat, would be electric.
>
> They liked electric heat since it made use of otherwise idle
> capacity in the winter (it was used in summer for a/c).
>
> In modern times, gas is now popular and more economical, though
> rates vary a lot by locality.
>
> https://books.google.com/books?id=51UEAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA60&dq=life%20long%20island%20expressway&pg=PP2#v=onepage&q&f=false
>
> Many years ago, my parents used coal.  They hated it, and were
> very happy when they converted to oil heat.

Electricity heating has the disadvantage that if you had a local power
outage you had no heat. If you had some oil or gas powered system you had
it at least warm, although your fridge, TV and other appliances wouldn't work.
-- 
Andreas

My random toughts and comments
https://news-commentaries.blogspot.com/

In article <878t97u...@usenet.ankman.de>,
Andreas Kohlbach  <a...@spamfence.net> wrote:
>On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 12:05:44 -0700 (PDT), hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>
>> In the 1960s, the electric power industry pushed for all-electric
>> homes--where all appliances, including heat, would be electric.
>>
>> They liked electric heat since it made use of otherwise idle
>> capacity in the winter (it was used in summer for a/c).
>>
>> In modern times, gas is now popular and more economical, though
>> rates vary a lot by locality.
>>
>>
>https://books.google.com/books?id=51UEAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA60&dq=life%20long%20island%20expressway&pg=PP2#v=onepage&q&f=false
>>
>> Many years ago, my parents used coal.  They hated it, and were
>> very happy when they converted to oil heat.
>
>Electricity heating has the disadvantage that if you had a local power
>outage you had no heat. If you had some oil or gas powered system you had
>it at least warm, although your fridge, TV and other appliances wouldn't work.
>-- 
>Andreas

I suspect that is less true now as most homes with gas heat will have
"central" heat where nothing will work without electricty anyway.  (If
you have a fireplace with gas logs, or old style stand-alone room heaters,
you will be better off..)
-- 
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 16:25:34 -0400
Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> wrote:

> Electricity heating has the disadvantage that if you had a local power
> outage you had no heat. If you had some oil or gas powered system you had
> it at least warm,

	Most oil and gas heating systems need electricity to function, at
the very least to pump water round the radiators unless it will thermosyphon
well, but often to run the burner.

> although your fridge, TV and other appliances wouldn't work.

	Lights too.

	I've been seriously considering UPSing my house - one consideration
is that the oven can take rather more than most reasonably priced inverters
want to handle - leave it out or pay the extra ... still thinking.

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN                                     | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

In article <20180428221152.1544...@eircom.net>,
Ahem A Rivet's Shot  <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
>On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 16:25:34 -0400
>Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> wrote:
>
>> Electricity heating has the disadvantage that if you had a local power
>> outage you had no heat. If you had some oil or gas powered system you had
>> it at least warm,
>
>	Most oil and gas heating systems need electricity to function, at
>the very least to pump water round the radiators unless it will thermosyphon
>well, but often to run the burner.
>
>> although your fridge, TV and other appliances wouldn't work.
>
>	Lights too.
>
>	I've been seriously considering UPSing my house - one consideration
>is that the oven can take rather more than most reasonably priced inverters
>want to handle - leave it out or pay the extra ... still thinking.
>

If you have natural gas, you can get a backup generator which will run on
it and kick in automatically.  Of course gasoline, propane or all three
in one box are options as well.
-- 
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> wrote:
> On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 12:05:44 -0700 (PDT), hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>> 
>> In the 1960s, the electric power industry pushed for all-electric
>> homes--where all appliances, including heat, would be electric.
>> 
>> They liked electric heat since it made use of otherwise idle
>> capacity in the winter (it was used in summer for a/c).
>> 
>> In modern times, gas is now popular and more economical, though
>> rates vary a lot by locality.
>> 
>> https://books.google.com/books?id=51UEAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA60&dq=life%20long%20island%20expressway&pg=PP2#v=onepage&q&f=false
>> 
>> Many years ago, my parents used coal.  They hated it, and were
>> very happy when they converted to oil heat.
> 
> Electricity heating has the disadvantage that if you had a local power
> outage you had no heat. If you had some oil or gas powered system you had
> it at least warm, although your fridge, TV and other appliances wouldn't work.

No, because the thermostat, fan, and controls require electricity. If you
have a generator it will be more than enough to run the furnace. I like
electric because it is cleaner (had oil in one house, coal and gas as a
kid), and because your heat is automatically zoned, so you can heat or not
heat different rooms however you want.

-- 
Pete

Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
> On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 16:25:34 -0400
> Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> wrote:
> 
>> Electricity heating has the disadvantage that if you had a local power
>> outage you had no heat. If you had some oil or gas powered system you had
>> it at least warm,
> 
> 	Most oil and gas heating systems need electricity to function, at
> the very least to pump water round the radiators unless it will thermosyphon
> well, but often to run the burner.
> 
>> although your fridge, TV and other appliances wouldn't work.
> 
> 	Lights too.
> 
> 	I've been seriously considering UPSing my house - one consideration
> is that the oven can take rather more than most reasonably priced inverters
> want to handle - leave it out or pay the extra ... still thinking.
> 

Probably can live without an oven for some period of time. I mostly use
mine to heat frozen pizza these days.

-- 
Pete

On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 16:25:34 -0400, Andreas Kohlbach
<a...@spamfence.net> wrote:

>On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 12:05:44 -0700 (PDT), hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>
>> In the 1960s, the electric power industry pushed for all-electric
>> homes--where all appliances, including heat, would be electric.
>>
>> They liked electric heat since it made use of otherwise idle
>> capacity in the winter (it was used in summer for a/c).
>>
>> In modern times, gas is now popular and more economical, though
>> rates vary a lot by locality.
>>
>> https://books.google.com/books?id=51UEAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA60&dq=life%20long%20island%20expressway&pg=PP2#v=onepage&q&f=false
>>
>> Many years ago, my parents used coal.  They hated it, and were
>> very happy when they converted to oil heat.
>
>Electricity heating has the disadvantage that if you had a local power
>outage you had no heat. If you had some oil or gas powered system you had
>it at least warm, although your fridge, TV and other appliances wouldn't work.

My heat is baseboard hot water.  Without electricity the circulating
pump doesn't work and the main burner doesn't light.  So the "warm" is
just the pilot light which does very little in a CT winter.

On 28 Apr 2018 21:38:05 GMT, t...@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan
<tednolan>) wrote:

>In article <20180428221152.1544...@eircom.net>,
>Ahem A Rivet's Shot  <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
>>On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 16:25:34 -0400
>>Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Electricity heating has the disadvantage that if you had a local power
>>> outage you had no heat. If you had some oil or gas powered system you had
>>> it at least warm,
>>
>>	Most oil and gas heating systems need electricity to function, at
>>the very least to pump water round the radiators unless it will thermosyphon
>>well, but often to run the burner.
>>
>>> although your fridge, TV and other appliances wouldn't work.
>>
>>	Lights too.
>>
>>	I've been seriously considering UPSing my house - one consideration
>>is that the oven can take rather more than most reasonably priced inverters
>>want to handle - leave it out or pay the extra ... still thinking.
>>
>
>If you have natural gas, you can get a backup generator which will run on
>it and kick in automatically.  Of course gasoline, propane or all three
>in one box are options as well.

Those generators are costly and require maintenance.  I've thought
about getting one but it's more hassle than it's worth for the few
times that I've had a serious power outage.  Among other things the
generator gets its own load panel to which loads that are considered
"critical" are fed, which may mean a good bit of rewiring.

On 4/28/2018 3:25 PM, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
> On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 12:05:44 -0700 (PDT), hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>
>> In the 1960s, the electric power industry pushed for all-electric
>> homes--where all appliances, including heat, would be electric.
>>
>> They liked electric heat since it made use of otherwise idle
>> capacity in the winter (it was used in summer for a/c).
>>
>> In modern times, gas is now popular and more economical, though
>> rates vary a lot by locality.
>>
>> https://books.google.com/books?id=51UEAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA60&dq=life%20long%20island%20expressway&pg=PP2#v=onepage&q&f=false
>>
>> Many years ago, my parents used coal.  They hated it, and were
>> very happy when they converted to oil heat.
> 
> Electricity heating has the disadvantage that if you had a local power
> outage you had no heat. If you had some oil or gas powered system you had
> it at least warm, although your fridge, TV and other appliances wouldn't work.
> 

While gas heat mostly requires electricity these days even for hot air 
systems (blowers, thermostats, control systems), it wasn't always the 
case. My family's coal furnace was hand stoked when I was a kid, and 
would continue heating through power outages (though the 
thermostat-controlled damper may have stopped working). Such "octopus" 
systems (gravity hot air) were often converted later to gas (with a 
pilot light). IIRC oil did require power (pumps, fans, igniters). Some 
neighbors had kerosene space heaters that didn't require power, though 
those were considered dangerous. Today it seems that most gas ovens 
require electricity, but not until recently. That's a bit of a CO 
hazard, though far less than kerosene was.

In northern rural areas, winter power outages of as long as several 
days used to happen occasionally (mostly after ice storms). Maybe 
still do (I've lived in the city for a half century).

J. Clarke <jclarke...@gmail.com> writes:

> Those generators are costly and require maintenance.  I've thought
> about getting one but it's more hassle than it's worth for the few
> times that I've had a serious power outage.  Among other things the
> generator gets its own load panel to which loads that are considered
> "critical" are fed, which may mean a good bit of rewiring.

We have wood heat/cooking plus bottled propane backup for cooking in
hot weather.  Water is hand-pumped.  The gen set in the woodshed isn't
wired into the house.  A 100' extension cord run through a port bored
through the house wall feeds the fridge and freezers if an outage is
more than a few hours.

As for oil heat vs. electric or other fuels: If you have a leak of
long duration or catastrophic damage to your fuel oil tank, you can be
in for environmental cleanup, depending on you location and how
quickly & effectively you can deal with it yourself, on the low order
of $10^4.

Lights, computers, other appliances aren't "critical" but can run off
the gen set if need justifies enduring the background noise and
fuel.

-- 
Mike Spencer                  Nova Scotia, Canada

Dave Garland <dave.g...@wizinfo.com> writes:

> While gas heat mostly requires electricity these days even for hot air 
> systems (blowers, thermostats, control systems), it wasn't always the 
> case.

Just so.  I've recently acquired a propane space heater for my
electrically heated micro-greenhouse.  Thermostated, convection.  And,
unvented, it boosts the CO2 in the greenhouse on the occasions when it
was needed.  I could, in a pinch, use it in the house although I'd
need an hour or two to contrive a vent into the fireplace flue.

> My family's coal furnace was hand stoked when I was a kid, and 
> would continue heating through power outages (though the 
> thermostat-controlled damper may have stopped working). 

Had that in a rented farm house 50 years ago.  Everything
convection/mechanical so no elecricity needed. Hard coal could be
delivered to the basement then so it was easy.  The kitchen range had
coal grates, too, and heated the gravity-fed running water.  Very nice
setup.  I would have bought the place in '67 had the owner not had a
previous commitment to another buyer.

> Such "octopus" systems (gravity hot air) were often converted later
> to gas (with a pilot light). IIRC oil did require power (pumps,
> fans, igniters). Some neighbors had kerosene space heaters that
> didn't require power, though those were considered dangerous. Today
> it seems that most gas ovens require electricity, but not until
> recently. That's a bit of a CO hazard, though far less than kerosene
> was.
> 
> In northern rural areas, winter power outages of as long as several 
> days used to happen occasionally (mostly after ice storms). Maybe 
> still do (I've lived in the city for a half century).

They still happen here. The powerco puts its money into new
megaprojects, hastens to do emergency repairs but has abandoned
preventive maintenance.  In a place where episodes of horrendous
weather are not unusual, that will eventually lead to worse & worse
outages as infrastructure deteriorates and trees grow up over lines
more and more.

-- 
Mike Spencer                  Nova Scotia, Canada

On 28 Apr 2018 22:45:20 -0300, Mike Spencer
<mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:

>
>J. Clarke <jclarke...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Those generators are costly and require maintenance.  I've thought
>> about getting one but it's more hassle than it's worth for the few
>> times that I've had a serious power outage.  Among other things the
>> generator gets its own load panel to which loads that are considered
>> "critical" are fed, which may mean a good bit of rewiring.
>
>We have wood heat/cooking plus bottled propane backup for cooking in
>hot weather.  Water is hand-pumped.  The gen set in the woodshed isn't
>wired into the house.  A 100' extension cord run through a port bored
>through the house wall feeds the fridge and freezers if an outage is
>more than a few hours.

I don't live in Novia Scotia, I have a building inspector and a fire
marshall and an electric company and lawyers and the whole nine yards
to deal with.  And they won't allow quite a lot of things.
>
>As for oil heat vs. electric or other fuels: If you have a leak of
>long duration or catastrophic damage to your fuel oil tank, you can be
>in for environmental cleanup, depending on you location and how
>quickly & effectively you can deal with it yourself, on the low order
>of $10^4.
>
>Lights, computers, other appliances aren't "critical" but can run off
>the gen set if need justifies enduring the background noise and
>fuel.

On 28 Apr 2018 20:47:51 GMT, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
>
> In article <878t97u...@usenet.ankman.de>,
> Andreas Kohlbach  <a...@spamfence.net> wrote:
>>On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 12:05:44 -0700 (PDT), hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>
>>> Many years ago, my parents used coal.  They hated it, and were
>>> very happy when they converted to oil heat.
>>
>>Electricity heating has the disadvantage that if you had a local power
>>outage you had no heat. If you had some oil or gas powered system you had
>>it at least warm, although your fridge, TV and other appliances wouldn't work.
>
> I suspect that is less true now as most homes with gas heat will have
> "central" heat where nothing will work without electricty anyway.  (If
> you have a fireplace with gas logs, or old style stand-alone room heaters,
> you will be better off..)

That depends on where you live. Here in Canada (where I live) much of the
heating is generated by electricity. I recall a power outage in Toronto
last year due to a fire, leaving residents freezing. Some lit up fires in
their home and succumbed carbon dioxide asphyxiation.
-- 
Andreas

My random toughts and comments
https://news-commentaries.blogspot.com/

Dave Garland <dave.g...@wizinfo.com> wrote:
> On 4/28/2018 3:25 PM, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>> On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 12:05:44 -0700 (PDT), hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>> 
>>> In the 1960s, the electric power industry pushed for all-electric
>>> homes--where all appliances, including heat, would be electric.
>>> 
>>> They liked electric heat since it made use of otherwise idle
>>> capacity in the winter (it was used in summer for a/c).
>>> 
>>> In modern times, gas is now popular and more economical, though
>>> rates vary a lot by locality.
>>> 
>>> https://books.google.com/books?id=51UEAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA60&dq=life%20long%20island%20expressway&pg=PP2#v=onepage&q&f=false
>>> 
>>> Many years ago, my parents used coal.  They hated it, and were
>>> very happy when they converted to oil heat.
>> 
>> Electricity heating has the disadvantage that if you had a local power
>> outage you had no heat. If you had some oil or gas powered system you had
>> it at least warm, although your fridge, TV and other appliances wouldn't work.
>> 
> 
> While gas heat mostly requires electricity these days even for hot air 
> systems (blowers, thermostats, control systems), it wasn't always the 
> case. My family's coal furnace was hand stoked when I was a kid, and 
> would continue heating through power outages (though the 
> thermostat-controlled damper may have stopped working). Such "octopus" 
> systems (gravity hot air) were often converted later to gas (with a 
> pilot light). IIRC oil did require power (pumps, fans, igniters). Some 
> neighbors had kerosene space heaters that didn't require power, though 
> those were considered dangerous. Today it seems that most gas ovens 
> require electricity, but not until recently. That's a bit of a CO 
> hazard, though far less than kerosene was.
> 
> In northern rural areas, winter power outages of as long as several 
> days used to happen occasionally (mostly after ice storms). Maybe 
> still do (I've lived in the city for a half century).
> 

The newer stuff I've seen light with an electric spark instead of a pilot
to eliminate the CO problem. I suppose you could still light, at least the
stove burners, with a match if you had to.

Our previous house had a wood stove with electric for backup. It was an
open plan, so the stove heated it quite nicely except overnight, unless I'd
get up to reload the stove. The electric usually would only kick in about
3:00AM.

-- 
Pete

J. Clarke <jclarke...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 28 Apr 2018 22:45:20 -0300, Mike Spencer
> <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> J. Clarke <jclarke...@gmail.com> writes:
>> 
>>> Those generators are costly and require maintenance.  I've thought
>>> about getting one but it's more hassle than it's worth for the few
>>> times that I've had a serious power outage.  Among other things the
>>> generator gets its own load panel to which loads that are considered
>>> "critical" are fed, which may mean a good bit of rewiring.
>> 
>> We have wood heat/cooking plus bottled propane backup for cooking in
>> hot weather.  Water is hand-pumped.  The gen set in the woodshed isn't
>> wired into the house.  A 100' extension cord run through a port bored
>> through the house wall feeds the fridge and freezers if an outage is
>> more than a few hours.
> 
> I don't live in Novia Scotia, I have a building inspector and a fire
> marshall and an electric company and lawyers and the whole nine yards
> to deal with.  And they won't allow quite a lot of things.

They couldn't stop this. If you wanted to get fancy you could install a box
on the outside wall with the appropriate plugs, but not connected to
anything. Fire marshal couldn't say anything, but when needed it would be
easy to plug in the generator and appliances.

>> 
>> As for oil heat vs. electric or other fuels: If you have a leak of
>> long duration or catastrophic damage to your fuel oil tank, you can be
>> in for environmental cleanup, depending on you location and how
>> quickly & effectively you can deal with it yourself, on the low order
>> of $10^4.
>> 
>> Lights, computers, other appliances aren't "critical" but can run off
>> the gen set if need justifies enduring the background noise and
>> fuel.
> 



-- 
Pete

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 16:32:08 -0700, Peter Flass
<peter...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>J. Clarke <jclarke...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 28 Apr 2018 22:45:20 -0300, Mike Spencer
>> <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> J. Clarke <jclarke...@gmail.com> writes:
>>> 
>>>> Those generators are costly and require maintenance.  I've thought
>>>> about getting one but it's more hassle than it's worth for the few
>>>> times that I've had a serious power outage.  Among other things the
>>>> generator gets its own load panel to which loads that are considered
>>>> "critical" are fed, which may mean a good bit of rewiring.
>>> 
>>> We have wood heat/cooking plus bottled propane backup for cooking in
>>> hot weather.  Water is hand-pumped.  The gen set in the woodshed isn't
>>> wired into the house.  A 100' extension cord run through a port bored
>>> through the house wall feeds the fridge and freezers if an outage is
>>> more than a few hours.
>> 
>> I don't live in Novia Scotia, I have a building inspector and a fire
>> marshall and an electric company and lawyers and the whole nine yards
>> to deal with.  And they won't allow quite a lot of things.
>
>They couldn't stop this. If you wanted to get fancy you could install a box
>on the outside wall with the appropriate plugs, but not connected to
>anything. Fire marshal couldn't say anything, but when needed it would be
>easy to plug in the generator and appliances.

As long as it is installed to code with GFIs and the whole nine yards.
Now, plug a generator into it and run the house and if he happens by
he's going to want to see your isolator that keeps current from
flowing back into the power lines.  He's not going to be happy to take
your word for it that you'll flip the main breaker.  And they have
somebody who is paid to ride around and look for things like that.

>>> As for oil heat vs. electric or other fuels: If you have a leak of
>>> long duration or catastrophic damage to your fuel oil tank, you can be
>>> in for environmental cleanup, depending on you location and how
>>> quickly & effectively you can deal with it yourself, on the low order
>>> of $10^4.
>>> 
>>> Lights, computers, other appliances aren't "critical" but can run off
>>> the gen set if need justifies enduring the background noise and
>>> fuel.
>> 

On 2018-04-30 02:08, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 16:32:08 -0700, Peter Flass <> wrote:
>> J. Clarke <> wrote:
>>> On 28 Apr 2018 22:45:20 -0300, Mike Spencer <> wrote:
>>>> J. Clarke <> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> Those generators are costly and require maintenance.  I've thought
>>>>> about getting one but it's more hassle than it's worth for the few
>>>>> times that I've had a serious power outage.  Among other things the
>>>>> generator gets its own load panel to which loads that are considered
>>>>> "critical" are fed, which may mean a good bit of rewiring.
>>>>
>>>> We have wood heat/cooking plus bottled propane backup for cooking in
>>>> hot weather.  Water is hand-pumped.  The gen set in the woodshed isn't
>>>> wired into the house.  A 100' extension cord run through a port bored
>>>> through the house wall feeds the fridge and freezers if an outage is
>>>> more than a few hours.
>>>
>>> I don't live in Novia Scotia, I have a building inspector and a fire
>>> marshall and an electric company and lawyers and the whole nine yards
>>> to deal with.  And they won't allow quite a lot of things.
>>
>> They couldn't stop this. If you wanted to get fancy you could install a box
>> on the outside wall with the appropriate plugs, but not connected to
>> anything. Fire marshal couldn't say anything, but when needed it would be
>> easy to plug in the generator and appliances.
> 
> As long as it is installed to code with GFIs and the whole nine yards.
> Now, plug a generator into it and run the house and if he happens by
> he's going to want to see your isolator that keeps current from
> flowing back into the power lines.  He's not going to be happy to take
> your word for it that you'll flip the main breaker.  And they have
> somebody who is paid to ride around and look for things like that.

You would be supplying your entire neighbourhood, you'd blow your
generator fuse, LOL.

-- 
Cheers, Carlos.

On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 06:10:54 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

>On 2018-04-30 02:08, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 16:32:08 -0700, Peter Flass <> wrote:
>>> J. Clarke <> wrote:
>>>> On 28 Apr 2018 22:45:20 -0300, Mike Spencer <> wrote:
>>>>> J. Clarke <> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Those generators are costly and require maintenance.  I've thought
>>>>>> about getting one but it's more hassle than it's worth for the few
>>>>>> times that I've had a serious power outage.  Among other things the
>>>>>> generator gets its own load panel to which loads that are considered
>>>>>> "critical" are fed, which may mean a good bit of rewiring.
>>>>>
>>>>> We have wood heat/cooking plus bottled propane backup for cooking in
>>>>> hot weather.  Water is hand-pumped.  The gen set in the woodshed isn't
>>>>> wired into the house.  A 100' extension cord run through a port bored
>>>>> through the house wall feeds the fridge and freezers if an outage is
>>>>> more than a few hours.
>>>>
>>>> I don't live in Novia Scotia, I have a building inspector and a fire
>>>> marshall and an electric company and lawyers and the whole nine yards
>>>> to deal with.  And they won't allow quite a lot of things.
>>>
>>> They couldn't stop this. If you wanted to get fancy you could install a box
>>> on the outside wall with the appropriate plugs, but not connected to
>>> anything. Fire marshal couldn't say anything, but when needed it would be
>>> easy to plug in the generator and appliances.
>> 
>> As long as it is installed to code with GFIs and the whole nine yards.
>> Now, plug a generator into it and run the house and if he happens by
>> he's going to want to see your isolator that keeps current from
>> flowing back into the power lines.  He's not going to be happy to take
>> your word for it that you'll flip the main breaker.  And they have
>> somebody who is paid to ride around and look for things like that.
>
>You would be supplying your entire neighbourhood, you'd blow your
>generator fuse, LOL.

That depends on (a) whether anybody else has anything turned on and
(b) exactly what lines are down.

Seriously, code requires isolation.  If you're not isolated Big
Brother's gonna getcha.  At least in this town where they pay some
dweeb to measure dandelions and levy huge fines if they're over a
foot.

On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 15:04:20 -0700, Peter Flass
<peter...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Probably can live without an oven for some period of time. I mostly use
> mine to heat frozen pizza these days.

I have a stove-top oven just big enough to bake a one-layer cake.  It
has a thermometer in the lid, and works just fine.  My grandmother
used it to avoid heating up the kitchen.

I also have an iron kettle in which I bake bread over an open fire
when the spirit moves me.  

Neither is emergency equipment.  My gas oven works without
electricity.

One can live forever without baking anything -- and it's quite
possible to bake in a skillet with a lid on it.  Or on a griddle, if
you like thin bread.

One can also make toast in a skillet -- useful when the power is out
but the gas is on.

It's extremely inefficient to burn fuel to make electricity to run
through a resistor for the sole purpose of making heat.  If I could
stand cooking on an electric stove, I would leave the whole stove out
of the household UPS, and buy a Gaz stove or a kerosene stove.

Good luck finding a place to buy kerosene.  The nearest I've seen
lately is perfumed "lamp oil".

I don't know just how old the Beyer Home is, but it was all-electric
in the days when the front door opened on a walkway, the back of the
house was toward the street, and nobody could conceive of wanting a
garage.  When I took a tour, I couldn't think of a modern equivalent;
you just can't be *that* cutting-edge these days.

-- 
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 01:49:01 -0300
Joy Beeson <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:

> Good luck finding a place to buy kerosene.  The nearest I've seen
> lately is perfumed "lamp oil".

	I know a filling station near here with a kerosene pump, it's used
for heating oil round here along with "marked gas oil" aka diesel with dye
(available in the next pump along). Otherwise there are delivery trucks,
but the miniumum delivery is a few hundred litres.

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN                                     | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

On 4/29/2018 11:49 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:

> Good luck finding a place to buy kerosene.  The nearest I've seen
> lately is perfumed "lamp oil".

Don't know what's around you, but around here hardware stores and 
building-supply stores carry it in gallon cans. Home Depot has it in 
2.5 gal. jugs. Used to fuel portable space heaters.

On 2018-04-30, J  Clarke <jclarke...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 16:32:08 -0700, Peter Flass
><peter...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>J. Clarke <jclarke...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 28 Apr 2018 22:45:20 -0300, Mike Spencer
>>> <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> J. Clarke <jclarke...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>> 
>
> As long as it is installed to code with GFIs and the whole nine yards.
> Now, plug a generator into it and run the house and if he happens by
> he's going to want to see your isolator that keeps current from
> flowing back into the power lines.  He's not going to be happy to take
> your word for it that you'll flip the main breaker.  And they have
> somebody who is paid to ride around and look for things like that.
>
>>>> As for oil heat vs. electric or other fuels: If you have a leak of
>>>> long duration or catastrophic damage to your fuel oil tank, you can be
>>>> in for environmental cleanup, depending on you location and how
>>>> quickly & effectively you can deal with it yourself, on the low order
>>>> of $10^4.
>>>> 
>>>> Lights, computers, other appliances aren't "critical" but can run off
>>>> the gen set if need justifies enduring the background noise and
>>>> fuel.
>>> 

++


-- 
greymaus.ireland.ie
Just_Another_Grumpy_Old_Man

J. Clarke <jclarke...@gmail.com> writes:

> As long as it is installed to code with GFIs and the whole nine yards.
> Now, plug a generator into it and run the house and if he happens by
> he's going to want to see your isolator that keeps current from
> flowing back into the power lines.  He's not going to be happy to take
> your word for it that you'll flip the main breaker.  And they have
> somebody who is paid to ride around and look for things like that.

Um, we have inspectors and bulding codes here, too.  The distinction
is that my system does *not* "run the house".  Individual freezers &
fridge get plugged into an extension cord from the woodshed.  Most of
our electric lighting is swag or other lamps so they can be plugged
into the cord as well.  It would require an inspector who is both
stupid and officiously belligerent to assert a spurious case that such
an arrangement violated code covering the installed wiring.

Of course, in some (sub?)urban venues, running a gasoline engine on
your property might be a violation of something or other.


-- 
Mike Spencer                  Nova Scotia, Canada

On 2018-04-30, J  Clarke <jclarke...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 06:10:54 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
><robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>
>>On 2018-04-30 02:08, J. Clarke wrote:
>>> On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 16:32:08 -0700, Peter Flass <> wrote:
>>>> J. Clarke <> wrote:
>>>>> On 28 Apr 2018 22:45:20 -0300, Mike Spencer <> wrote:
>>>>>> J. Clarke <> writes:
>>>>>>
>
> That depends on (a) whether anybody else has anything turned on and
> (b) exactly what lines are down.
>
> Seriously, code requires isolation.  If you're not isolated Big
> Brother's gonna getcha.  At least in this town where they pay some
> dweeb to measure dandelions and levy huge fines if they're over a
> foot.


Electricity usage is one of the things the police look for when they are
looking for cannabis growers. 

-- 
greymaus.ireland.ie
Just_Another_Grumpy_Old_Man

J. Clarke <jclarke...@gmail.com> writes:

> Seriously, code requires isolation.  If you're not isolated Big
> Brother's gonna getcha.  At least in this town where they pay some
> dweeb to measure dandelions and levy huge fines if they're over a
> foot.

Wrrrmhf, sorry for your sad situation.  When will you be elligibe for
parole?

-- 
Mike Spencer                  Nova Scotia, Canada

On 2018-04-30, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
> On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 01:49:01 -0300
> Joy Beeson <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Good luck finding a place to buy kerosene.  The nearest I've seen
>> lately is perfumed "lamp oil".
>
> 	I know a filling station near here with a kerosene pump, it's used
> for heating oil round here along with "marked gas oil" aka diesel with dye
> (available in the next pump along). Otherwise there are delivery trucks,
> but the miniumum delivery is a few hundred litres.
>

beware different word usages. they mean different in the US than in
rightpondia, hell, in country France, 'petrol' will get you a blank
stare, try 'benzene' instead. 

Filling your car with dye marked fuel will get you stopped by the police
and your car impounded, or even worse.

When I was young(er) what is called kerosene now was called parrafin.


-- 
greymaus.ireland.ie
Just_Another_Grumpy_Old_Man

On 2018-04-30, Dave Garland <dave.g...@wizinfo.com> wrote:
> On 4/29/2018 11:49 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
>
>> Good luck finding a place to buy kerosene.  The nearest I've seen
>> lately is perfumed "lamp oil".
>
> Don't know what's around you, but around here hardware stores and 
> building-supply stores carry it in gallon cans. Home Depot has it in 
> 2.5 gal. jugs. Used to fuel portable space heaters.

During our last financial crises, a local fuel place was telling me that
they were having a lot of people coming in with 5 gallon drums to buy
enough to heat their houses overnight. It stinks.


-- 
greymaus.ireland.ie
Just_Another_Grumpy_Old_Man

Joy Beeson <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> writes:

> Good luck finding a place to buy kerosene.  The nearest I've seen
> lately is perfumed "lamp oil".

Here's an OT yarn:

In 1967, I lived in Montague.  The nearest store was a mile down the
road in North Leverett.  Chape's store had a single gas pump and all
sorts of merchandise crammed and wedged into a small space  so tightly
that CHape had to trun sideways to get out past it.  Would gove
moderny inspectors fits.

One day at dusk I was there when a 40' tractor/trailer rig pulled up.
The driver came in, wanted diesel fuel or directions to the nearest
diesel pump.  About 3 miles back the way you came, then 5 miles to the
station.  Jeez, what am I gonne do?! I don't have enough fuel for
more than a mile or two.  Well, Chape says,  I have kerosene.

Oh, great!  Huge relief.  The driver and I go out to the rig and chat
while we wait for Chape's kersosene.  After a few minutes, Chape comes
out to the road with a 1 quart spout can full of kerosene, asks where
to pour it.  Uh-huuuuuuh, he has maybe forty gallons on hand but it
has to be pumped from the drum with a hand-crank pump, 1 quart at a
time.  When I ambled off home, Chape was just getting into the 2nd
gallon and the driver was guessing that he was not merely lost but has
somehow made it to a different planet.


-- 
Mike Spencer                  Nova Scotia, Canada

On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 00:14:40 -0400
J. Clarke <jclarke...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Seriously, code requires isolation.  If you're not isolated Big
> Brother's gonna getcha. 

	Here either isolation or an approved grid tie (one that won't put
power onto a line that doesn't already have power) is required for anything
that puts power into the house mains. It's a safety thing for the line
workers who want to be certain that they know which sections are live and
which are not when they work on them.

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN                                     | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

On 2018-04-30 09:43, maus wrote:
> On 2018-04-30, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
>> On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 01:49:01 -0300
>> Joy Beeson <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> Good luck finding a place to buy kerosene.  The nearest I've seen
>>> lately is perfumed "lamp oil".
>>
>> 	I know a filling station near here with a kerosene pump, it's used
>> for heating oil round here along with "marked gas oil" aka diesel with dye
>> (available in the next pump along). Otherwise there are delivery trucks,
>> but the miniumum delivery is a few hundred litres.
>>
> 
> beware different word usages. they mean different in the US than in
> rightpondia, hell, in country France, 'petrol' will get you a blank
> stare, try 'benzene' instead. 

In Spain, "petroleo" is kerosene. Although I heard someone call it
"parafina", but he might be an immigrant.

And your petrol is called "gasolina".

:-)

-- 
Cheers, Carlos.

On 2018-04-30 06:49, Joy Beeson wrote:
> Good luck finding a place to buy kerosene.  The nearest I've seen
> lately is perfumed "lamp oil".

Here (Spain) they now sell "odourless kerosene" in plastic bottles, from
5 litres to 40. Intended for heaters to use inside houses. Way more
expensive that what we bought on the only kerosene pump in the city, but
it disappeared.

It is indeed almost odourless if the burner produces a blue flame, but
not if it is yellow.

-- 
Cheers, Carlos.

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 18:39:02 -0400
Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> wrote:
 
> That depends on where you live. Here in Canada (where I live) much of
> the heating is generated by electricity. I recall a power outage in
> Toronto last year due to a fire, leaving residents freezing. Some lit
> up fires in their home and succumbed carbon dioxide asphyxiation.

Really? Not carbon monoxide poisoning?  I know modern homes in cold
places are pretty well sealed against cold air flow, but that seems
extreme.

J. Clarke <jclarke...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 06:10:54 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
> 
>> On 2018-04-30 02:08, J. Clarke wrote:
>>> On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 16:32:08 -0700, Peter Flass <> wrote:
>>>> J. Clarke <> wrote:
>>>>> On 28 Apr 2018 22:45:20 -0300, Mike Spencer <> wrote:
>>>>>> J. Clarke <> writes:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Those generators are costly and require maintenance.  I've thought
>>>>>>> about getting one but it's more hassle than it's worth for the few
>>>>>>> times that I've had a serious power outage.  Among other things the
>>>>>>> generator gets its own load panel to which loads that are considered
>>>>>>> "critical" are fed, which may mean a good bit of rewiring.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> We have wood heat/cooking plus bottled propane backup for cooking in
>>>>>> hot weather.  Water is hand-pumped.  The gen set in the woodshed isn't
>>>>>> wired into the house.  A 100' extension cord run through a port bored
>>>>>> through the house wall feeds the fridge and freezers if an outage is
>>>>>> more than a few hours.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I don't live in Novia Scotia, I have a building inspector and a fire
>>>>> marshall and an electric company and lawyers and the whole nine yards
>>>>> to deal with.  And they won't allow quite a lot of things.
>>>> 
>>>> They couldn't stop this. If you wanted to get fancy you could install a box
>>>> on the outside wall with the appropriate plugs, but not connected to
>>>> anything. Fire marshal couldn't say anything, but when needed it would be
>>>> easy to plug in the generator and appliances.
>>> 
>>> As long as it is installed to code with GFIs and the whole nine yards.
>>> Now, plug a generator into it and run the house and if he happens by
>>> he's going to want to see your isolator that keeps current from
>>> flowing back into the power lines.  He's not going to be happy to take
>>> your word for it that you'll flip the main breaker.  And they have
>>> somebody who is paid to ride around and look for things like that.
>> 
>> You would be supplying your entire neighbourhood, you'd blow your
>> generator fuse, LOL.
> 
> That depends on (a) whether anybody else has anything turned on and
> (b) exactly what lines are down.
> 
> Seriously, code requires isolation.  If you're not isolated Big
> Brother's gonna getcha.  At least in this town where they pay some
> dweeb to measure dandelions and levy huge fines if they're over a
> foot.
> 

If you have dandelions a foot tall they should give you an award!

-- 
Pete

On 30 Apr 2018 04:36:24 -0300, Mike Spencer
<mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:

>
>J. Clarke <jclarke...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> As long as it is installed to code with GFIs and the whole nine yards.
>> Now, plug a generator into it and run the house and if he happens by
>> he's going to want to see your isolator that keeps current from
>> flowing back into the power lines.  He's not going to be happy to take
>> your word for it that you'll flip the main breaker.  And they have
>> somebody who is paid to ride around and look for things like that.
>
>Um, we have inspectors and bulding codes here, too.  The distinction
>is that my system does *not* "run the house".  Individual freezers &
>fridge get plugged into an extension cord from the woodshed.  Most of
>our electric lighting is swag or other lamps so they can be plugged
>into the cord as well.  It would require an inspector who is both
>stupid and officiously belligerent to assert a spurious case that such
>an arrangement violated code covering the installed wiring.
>
>Of course, in some (sub?)urban venues, running a gasoline engine on
>your property might be a violation of something or other.

This year's ARRL Field Day in June, using gas generators are no longer
'alternate powered' radios. It has to be solar or a windmill. So my
station was a 1E, worth points for someone to talk to, is now a 1D
station. They get no points for talking to me.

What gets used after a tornado or hurricane ? Gas powered generators.

On Saturday, April 28, 2018 at 6:04:20 PM UTC-4, Peter Flass wrote:
> Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> wrote:
> > On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 12:05:44 -0700 (PDT), hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> >> 
> >> In the 1960s, the electric power industry pushed for all-electric
> >> homes--where all appliances, including heat, would be electric.
> >> 
> >> They liked electric heat since it made use of otherwise idle
> >> capacity in the winter (it was used in summer for a/c).
> >> 
> >> In modern times, gas is now popular and more economical, though
> >> rates vary a lot by locality.
> >> 
> >> https://books.google.com/books?id=51UEAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA60&dq=life%20long%20island%20expressway&pg=PP2#v=onepage&q&f=false
> >> 
> >> Many years ago, my parents used coal.  They hated it, and were
> >> very happy when they converted to oil heat.
> > 
> > Electricity heating has the disadvantage that if you had a local power
> > outage you had no heat. If you had some oil or gas powered system you had
> > it at least warm, although your fridge, TV and other appliances wouldn't work.
> 
> No, because the thermostat, fan, and controls require electricity. If you
> have a generator it will be more than enough to run the furnace. I like
> electric because it is cleaner (had oil in one house, coal and gas as a
> kid), and because your heat is automatically zoned, so you can heat or not
> heat different rooms however you want.

Yes, in even in our old house, where the gas was just hot air,
no fan, but the thermostat was still electric and needed to turn
the furnance on and off.

Of course, that was a city house, and power failures were extremely
rare.

On Sunday, April 29, 2018 at 7:32:08 PM UTC-4, Peter Flass wrote:
> Dave Garland <dave.g...@wizinfo.com> wrote:
> > On 4/28/2018 3:25 PM, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
> >> On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 12:05:44 -0700 (PDT), hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> >>> 
> >>> In the 1960s, the electric power industry pushed for all-electric
> >>> homes--where all appliances, including heat, would be electric.
> >>> 
> >>> They liked electric heat since it made use of otherwise idle
> >>> capacity in the winter (it was used in summer for a/c).
> >>> 
> >>> In modern times, gas is now popular and more economical, though
> >>> rates vary a lot by locality.
> >>> 
> >>> https://books.google.com/books?id=51UEAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA60&dq=life%20long%20island%20expressway&pg=PP2#v=onepage&q&f=false
> >>> 
> >>> Many years ago, my parents used coal.  They hated it, and were
> >>> very happy when they converted to oil heat.
> >> 
> >> Electricity heating has the disadvantage that if you had a local power
> >> outage you had no heat. If you had some oil or gas powered system you had
> >> it at least warm, although your fridge, TV and other appliances wouldn't work.
> >> 
> > 
> > While gas heat mostly requires electricity these days even for hot air 
> > systems (blowers, thermostats, control systems), it wasn't always the 
> > case. My family's coal furnace was hand stoked when I was a kid, and 
> > would continue heating through power outages (though the 
> > thermostat-controlled damper may have stopped working). Such "octopus" 
> > systems (gravity hot air) were often converted later to gas (with a 
> > pilot light). IIRC oil did require power (pumps, fans, igniters). Some 
> > neighbors had kerosene space heaters that didn't require power, though 
> > those were considered dangerous. Today it seems that most gas ovens 
> > require electricity, but not until recently. That's a bit of a CO 
> > hazard, though far less than kerosene was.
> > 
> > In northern rural areas, winter power outages of as long as several 
> > days used to happen occasionally (mostly after ice storms). Maybe 
> > still do (I've lived in the city for a half century).
> > 
> 
> The newer stuff I've seen light with an electric spark instead of a pilot
> to eliminate the CO problem. I suppose you could still light, at least the
> stove burners, with a match if you had to.

In our city house, the cooktop had a pilot light, but the oven
had to be lit.  I hated doing so because it would suck in the
match flame with a big whoosh.  If you waited a moment before
lighting, it made a boom.

I guess having electronic ignition instead of pilot lights saves
on gas.  Back then they toward us pilot lights used so little
gas as to be insignificant.

As an aside, in the early 1960s, the city converted from 
manufactured gas to natural gas, thanks to new pipelines and
cheaper supplies.

On Monday, April 30, 2018 at 1:50:34 AM UTC-4, Joy Beeson wrote:

> Good luck finding a place to buy kerosene.  The nearest I've seen
> lately is perfumed "lamp oil".

After suffering through several extended winter power outages,
I want a kerosene heater to keep warm.  At one time they were
popular to save money.

Ironically, it was kerosene--used for lighting--that created the
big oil industry.  They threw gasoline away as waste.

On 2018-04-30, Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>
> Joy Beeson <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> writes:
>
>> Good luck finding a place to buy kerosene.  The nearest I've seen
>> lately is perfumed "lamp oil".
>
> Here's an OT yarn:
>
> In 1967, I lived in Montague.  The nearest store was a mile down the
> road in North Leverett.  Chape's store had a single gas pump and all
> sorts of merchandise crammed and wedged into a small space  so tightly
> that CHape had to trun sideways to get out past it.  Would gove
> moderny inspectors fits.
>
> One day at dusk I was there when a 40' tractor/trailer rig pulled up.
> The driver came in, wanted diesel fuel or directions to the nearest
> diesel pump.  About 3 miles back the way you came, then 5 miles to the
> station.  Jeez, what am I gonne do?! I don't have enough fuel for
> more than a mile or two.  Well, Chape says,  I have kerosene.
>
> Oh, great!  Huge relief.  The driver and I go out to the rig and chat
> while we wait for Chape's kersosene.  After a few minutes, Chape comes
> out to the road with a 1 quart spout can full of kerosene, asks where
> to pour it.  Uh-huuuuuuh, he has maybe forty gallons on hand but it
> has to be pumped from the drum with a hand-crank pump, 1 quart at a
> time.  When I ambled off home, Chape was just getting into the 2nd
> gallon and the driver was guessing that he was not merely lost but has
> somehow made it to a different planet.
>
>

Let it be whispered, but I once drove  a Land Rover Defender, and one
way to get it by the smoke-emission part of the annual test was to add
in some (parrifin | kerosene) mixture to the fuel. It was not me that
did that, Judge. A friend once had an home-adjusted Jaguar. which was
started with petrol, then one turned, with a tap, over to kerosene. Not
dangerous in any way.


-- 
greymaus.ireland.ie
Just_Another_Grumpy_Old_Man

In article <b2865d90-1cfd-477e...@googlegroups.com>,
 <hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>On Monday, April 30, 2018 at 1:50:34 AM UTC-4, Joy Beeson wrote:
>
>> Good luck finding a place to buy kerosene.  The nearest I've seen
>> lately is perfumed "lamp oil".
>
>After suffering through several extended winter power outages,
>I want a kerosene heater to keep warm.  At one time they were
>popular to save money.
>
>Ironically, it was kerosene--used for lighting--that created the
>big oil industry.  They threw gasoline away as waste.
>

I think we had this thread before, but at least in SC, there are plenty
of stations with kerosene pumps.  Usually they are off in a corner, not
at the gasoline islands.
-- 
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

On 30/04/2018 00:32, Peter Flass wrote:
> 
> The newer stuff I've seen light with an electric spark instead of a pilot
> to eliminate the CO problem. I suppose you could still light, at least the
> stove burners, with a match if you had to.
> 
> Our previous house had a wood stove with electric for backup. It was an
> open plan, so the stove heated it quite nicely except overnight, unless I'd
> get up to reload the stove. The electric usually would only kick in about
> 3:00AM.
> 

These days combined heat and power (CHP) systems can be purchased. 
Several fuels are available but they normally use gas.

On 2018-04-30 22:20, hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:

> I guess having electronic ignition instead of pilot lights saves
> on gas.  Back then they toward us pilot lights used so little
> gas as to be insignificant.

It is not.

I had a butane flash water heater with a pilot light. We calculated that
the pilot light alone was some bottles (12.5Kg each) a year.

I just searched a site, which says it is 13 g / hour, making up to 10
bottles/year.

Spanish:
<https://www.climahorro.es/info/cuanto-consume-la-llama-del-piloto-de-una-caldera-de-gas>


-- 
Cheers, Carlos.

On 2018-04-30 12:14 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
> 
> Seriously, code requires isolation.  If you're not isolated Big
> Brother's gonna getcha. 

If you're not isolated, you are endangering the guys trying
to restore your power.

Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
> On 2018-04-30 22:20, hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> 
>> I guess having electronic ignition instead of pilot lights saves
>> on gas.  Back then they toward us pilot lights used so little
>> gas as to be insignificant.
> 
> It is not.
> 
> I had a butane flash water heater with a pilot light. We calculated that
> the pilot light alone was some bottles (12.5Kg each) a year.
> 
> I just searched a site, which says it is 13 g / hour, making up to 10
> bottles/year.
> 
> Spanish:
> <https://www.climahorro.es/info/cuanto-consume-la-llama-del-piloto-de-una-caldera-de-gas>
> 
> 

Compare the outdoor gas lights that were popular a few years ago, which
were always on.

-- 
Pete

On 2018-05-02 01:15, Peter Flass wrote:
> Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>> On 2018-04-30 22:20, hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>
>>> I guess having electronic ignition instead of pilot lights saves
>>> on gas.  Back then they toward us pilot lights used so little
>>> gas as to be insignificant.
>>
>> It is not.
>>
>> I had a butane flash water heater with a pilot light. We calculated that
>> the pilot light alone was some bottles (12.5Kg each) a year.
>>
>> I just searched a site, which says it is 13 g / hour, making up to 10
>> bottles/year.
>>
>> Spanish:
>> <https://www.climahorro.es/info/cuanto-consume-la-llama-del-piloto-de-una-caldera-de-gas>
>>
>>
> 
> Compare the outdoor gas lights that were popular a few years ago, which
> were always on.

I've never seen that :-)

But the thing is, the purpose of the pilot light is to light up the big
flame when needed, automatically. It costs money to have it on full time
over a year, measurably so. And in my case, I also have to carry those
big and heavy butane bottles.

It makes sense to use an electric lighter on the thing - and sure
enough, my new butane flash water heater uses two 1.5 big batteries
(type A or D?) that last years.


-- 
Cheers, Carlos.

On Tuesday, May 1, 2018 at 7:15:16 PM UTC-4, Peter Flass wrote:
> Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

> Compare the outdoor gas lights that were popular a few years ago, which
> were always on.

Like pilot lights, I was told they too only used a miniscule amount
of gas and thus could be left on at all times.

City streetlights years ago required a lamplighter to go around
and light them every evening.

It's hard to believe today massive gas works were built to manufacture
gas which back then was used just for lighting.

On 2018-05-02, hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com <hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 1, 2018 at 7:15:16 PM UTC-4, Peter Flass wrote:
>> Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Compare the outdoor gas lights that were popular a few years ago, which
>> were always on.
>
> Like pilot lights, I was told they too only used a miniscule amount
> of gas and thus could be left on at all times.
>
> City streetlights years ago required a lamplighter to go around
> and light them every evening.
>
> It's hard to believe today massive gas works were built to manufacture
> gas which back then was used just for lighting.

During and after WWII, there were people employed to go around to check
on people's gas usage, they would switch on the gas appliences to check
that there was enough for a glimmer of flame. 

They were ther because there  was  adanger that if people used the last of the
gas, oxygen would get into the gas lines and be dangerous. The man who
told me that had a hazy memory, we were sitting in a bar waiting for
things to quieten down. so details could be wrong.

He said that the men doing that were universally hated and called 'The
Glimmer men'.

One of the reasons for whale hunting in the 19th century was that street
lighting was usuall powered by whale oil.


-- 
greymaus.ireland.ie
Just_Another_Grumpy_Old_Man

On Thursday, May 3, 2018 at 3:12:27 AM UTC-4, ma...@mail.com wrote:

> One of the reasons for whale hunting in the 19th century was that street
> lighting was usuall powered by whale oil.

That's why oil was so popular right away--it was cheaper and better.
Huge business just selling kerosene.

The book "The Prize" is a great history of the oil industry.

For instance, Shell Oil was started by a man who originally 
imported sea shells and knickknacks for resale.

On 2018-05-03, ma...@mail.com <ma...@mail.com> wrote:

> One of the reasons for whale hunting in the 19th century was that street
> lighting was usuall powered by whale oil.

Whale oil beef hooked.

-- 
/~\  cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ /  I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
 X   Top-posted messages will probably be ignored.  See RFC1855.
/ \  Fight low-contrast text in web pages!  http://contrastrebellion.com

Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> On 2018-05-03, ma...@mail.com <ma...@mail.com> wrote:
> 
>> One of the reasons for whale hunting in the 19th century was that street
>> lighting was usuall powered by whale oil.
> 
> Whale oil beef hooked.
> 

?

-- 
Pete

Peter Flass wrote:

> Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
>> ma...@mail.com |wrote:
>>
>>> One of the reasons for whale hunting in the 19th century was that street
>>> lighting was usuall powered by whale oil.
>>
>> Whale oil beef hooked.
> 
> ?

now say it out loud ... thinking of an accent local to mausg may help