🚀 go-pugleaf

hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
> In the 1960s, the electric power industry pushed for all-electric
> homes--where all appliances, including heat, would be electric.

1934 ... all electric homes
http://content.libraries.wsu.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/clipping/id/17133/rec/1

1935 ... electric kitchen ranges
http://content.libraries.wsu.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/clipping/id/17494/rec/38

1936 ... electric heat success
http://content.libraries.wsu.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/clipping/id/17263/rec/124

1938, .... may build chimneys because electric rate going up
http://content.libraries.wsu.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/clipping/id/3030/rec/119

-- 
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 18:25:41 -0400
J. Clarke <jclarke...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 28 Apr 2018 21:38:05 GMT, t...@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan
> <tednolan>) wrote:
> 
> >In article <20180428221152.1544...@eircom.net>,
> >Ahem A Rivet's Shot  <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
> >>On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 16:25:34 -0400
> >>Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Electricity heating has the disadvantage that if you had a local power
> >>> outage you had no heat. If you had some oil or gas powered system you
> >>> had it at least warm,
> >>
> >>	Most oil and gas heating systems need electricity to function,
> >>	at
> >>the very least to pump water round the radiators unless it will
> >>thermosyphon well, but often to run the burner.
> >>
> >>> although your fridge, TV and other appliances wouldn't work.
> >>
> >>	Lights too.
> >>
> >>	I've been seriously considering UPSing my house - one
> >>	consideration
> >>is that the oven can take rather more than most reasonably priced
> >>inverters want to handle - leave it out or pay the extra ... still
> >>thinking.
> >>
> >
> >If you have natural gas, you can get a backup generator which will run on
> >it and kick in automatically.  Of course gasoline, propane or all three
> >in one box are options as well.
> 
> Those generators are costly and require maintenance.  I've thought

	Yep, but enough LiPO batteries for a couple of hours isn't too
expensive these days and is getting cheaper steadily. Lead/Acid gel is
still cheaper initially but more expensive long term.

> Among other things the
> generator gets its own load panel to which loads that are considered
> "critical" are fed, which may mean a good bit of rewiring.

	Yep batteries have much the same problem - except that there's the
option of doing it in pieces consumer side - for example the lighting here
is 12V anyway so putting a battery in the feed for that is fairly simple, a
small UPS would drive the pellet burner and heating pump, a larger one for
the network infrastructure (preferably move as much as possible to 12V or
48V).

	OTOH a central battery arrangement makes hooking in solar and/or
wind charging easier.

	It's all stacked behind a bunch of other projects of course.

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN                                     | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 16:25:34 -0400
> Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> wrote:
>
>> Electricity heating has the disadvantage that if you had a local power
>> outage you had no heat. If you had some oil or gas powered system you had
>> it at least warm,
>
> 	Most oil and gas heating systems need electricity to function, at
> the very least to pump water round the radiators unless it will thermosyphon
> well, but often to run the burner.
>
>> although your fridge, TV and other appliances wouldn't work.
>
> 	Lights too.
>
> 	I've been seriously considering UPSing my house - one consideration
> is that the oven can take rather more than most reasonably priced inverters
> want to handle - leave it out or pay the extra ... still thinking.

  we have propane for heat, but the fan does need electricity
to recirculate the air.  as a backup for heat in the winter
we have our fireplace converted to be able to use propane so
we won't freeze to death.  we've used this a few times over
the years to warm up some food and have a bit of heat, but it
won't keep the entire house warm -- it doesn't often happen
that we have a power outage for more than a day or two now.

  for lights with the modern LED bulbs i can run them off my
computer UPS for days as they draw so little power.  one or
two bulbs will light the whole house well enough for getting
around.

  as long as we don't open the freezer it will stay cold enough
for a few days and we don't use the other bigger appliances so
this setup is good enough.


  songbird

On 2018-04-28 21:05, hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> In the 1960s, the electric power industry pushed for all-electric
> homes--where all appliances, including heat, would be electric.
> 
> They liked electric heat since it made use of otherwise idle
> capacity in the winter (it was used in summer for a/c).

Electricity is cheap and safe to transport and distribute, appliances
are easy to install and control. No venting needed. No gas explosions.
No CO/CO2 dangers.

-- 
Cheers, Carlos.

On 2018-04-29, Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> J. Clarke <jclarke...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 28 Apr 2018 22:45:20 -0300, Mike Spencer
>> <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> J. Clarke <jclarke...@gmail.com> writes:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> As for oil heat vs. electric or other fuels: If you have a leak of
>>> long duration or catastrophic damage to your fuel oil tank, you can be
>>> in for environmental cleanup, depending on you location and how
>>> quickly & effectively you can deal with it yourself, on the low order
>>> of $10^4.
>>> 
>>> Lights, computers, other appliances aren't "critical" but can run off
>>> the gen set if need justifies enduring the background noise and
>>> fuel.
>> 

I had a generator when I was in business. it has been 'borrowed' for
some years by a friend, I would think that it would take a commando unit
to get back.

It would not be practical to try to power the house off it. One test of
a generator is to plug in an electric kettle, and try to boil water. You
can hear the strain coming from the generator. Dairy farmers have them,
but those are in a different league.

For one small item, if one could power a small house with them, the
mains coming in would have to be disconnected, obviously, then
reconnected when the power comes on.

That would leave just running the computer off it, and one would still
be disconnected from the net.

Electricity is very expensive in the Ireland-UK area, there are so many 
`sustainable' nut-case electricity makers to subsidise.

hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
>In the 1960s, the electric power industry pushed for all-electric
>homes--where all appliances, including heat, would be electric.
>
>They liked electric heat since it made use of otherwise idle
>capacity in the winter (it was used in summer for a/c).

When my parents house was built in the mid 70's, electric
heat was installed (upper midwest).  To support the central
forced air electric heat system, two 200A services were installed.

Less than a decade later, a LP tank was installed and the
furnace converted to LP, and a decade after that, nat gas
lines were run to the area and the furnace converted to NatGas.

On Saturday, April 28, 2018 at 5:38:07 PM UTC-4, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:

> If you have natural gas, you can get a backup generator which will run on
> it and kick in automatically.  Of course gasoline, propane or all three
> in one box are options as well.

very expensive.

On Sunday, April 29, 2018 at 7:08:09 PM UTC-4, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2018-04-28 21:05, hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> > In the 1960s, the electric power industry pushed for all-electric
> > homes--where all appliances, including heat, would be electric.
> > 
> > They liked electric heat since it made use of otherwise idle
> > capacity in the winter (it was used in summer for a/c).
> 
> Electricity is cheap and safe to transport and distribute, appliances
> are easy to install and control. No venting needed. No gas explosions.
> No CO/CO2 dangers.

Our city rowhouse had gas heat, hot water, clothes dryer, and stove.
In later years, some people had gas air conditioning.

In the old days, the gas works was very supportive.  If you called
them, they came right out, and fixed things for a modest fee or
for free.

My parents said that suburbanites who didn't have gas had to pay
much more for electric hot water, dryer, and cooking; and oil
heat was maintenance intensive, and you were at the mercy of
your oil supplier to come out.

Unfortunately, today the gas works and suburban gas company are
not very responsive.  There have been fatal explosions.  I am
glad I don't have gas today.

On 2018-04-28 4:25 PM, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
> 
> Electricity heating has the disadvantage that if you had a
> local power outage you had no heat. If you had some oil 
> or gas powered system you had it at least warm,
> although your fridge, TV and other appliances wouldn't work.

Essentially, all modern oil and gas heating systems won't work
if there is a local power outage.  The control and auxiliary
systems (pumps, fans, igniters) are all electrically operated.

During the big ice storm in 1998 homes gas and oil
were just as unheated, as those with electric heat.

Yes there were some old fuel old space heaters in small
homes and cottages.  You turned it on by manually opening
the fuel valve and dropping a burning piece of paper
into the fire pit.  I have not seen one in a home in over
60 years.  We had one in our cottage longer than that,
but we did not use the cottage in the winter.

In article <a411e64e-c0e1-4cea...@googlegroups.com>,
 <hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>On Saturday, April 28, 2018 at 5:38:07 PM UTC-4, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
>
>> If you have natural gas, you can get a backup generator which will run on
>> it and kick in automatically.  Of course gasoline, propane or all three
>> in one box are options as well.
>
>very expensive.

On the price order of a new central AC unit iirc.  So, yes, but not impossible.
-- 
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

In article <pc80jk$ckf$1...@dont-email.me>,
Alan Bowler  <atbo...@thinkage.ca> wrote:
>On 2018-04-28 4:25 PM, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>> 
>> Electricity heating has the disadvantage that if you had a
>> local power outage you had no heat. If you had some oil 
>> or gas powered system you had it at least warm,
>> although your fridge, TV and other appliances wouldn't work.
>
>Essentially, all modern oil and gas heating systems won't work
>if there is a local power outage.  The control and auxiliary
>systems (pumps, fans, igniters) are all electrically operated.
>
>During the big ice storm in 1998 homes gas and oil
>were just as unheated, as those with electric heat.
>
>Yes there were some old fuel old space heaters in small
>homes and cottages.  You turned it on by manually opening
>the fuel valve and dropping a burning piece of paper
>into the fire pit.  I have not seen one in a home in over
>60 years.  We had one in our cottage longer than that,
>but we did not use the cottage in the winter.

My aunt in Fernandina Beach had both an oil heater like that and
individual propane heaters/gas logs in the kitchen and other rooms.
We used to go down for Christmas, and the oil heater kept the main house
above freezing, but it was certainly nice to go into the toasty warmth
of the propane kitchen after dreading the freezing experience of getting
out of bed upstairs.  She never had central heat or ac as long as she lived.
-- 
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

On 28/04/2018 22:11, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 16:25:34 -0400
> Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> wrote:
> 
>> Electricity heating has the disadvantage that if you had a local power
>> outage you had no heat. If you had some oil or gas powered system you had
>> it at least warm,
> 
> 	Most oil and gas heating systems need electricity to function, at
> the very least to pump water round the radiators unless it will thermosyphon
> well, but often to run the burner.
> 
>> although your fridge, TV and other appliances wouldn't work.
> 
> 	Lights too.
> 
> 	I've been seriously considering UPSing my house - one consideration
> is that the oven can take rather more than most reasonably priced inverters
> want to handle - leave it out or pay the extra ... still thinking.
> 

Leave the cooker off the UPS. Buy a microwave that uses less than 1kW. 
Outrages only last a few days.

 > Outrages only last a few days.

   ^^^^^^^^

lol!

De

On 30 Apr 2018 22:53:09 GMT, t...@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan
<tednolan>) wrote:

>In article <pc80jk$ckf$1...@dont-email.me>,
>Alan Bowler  <atbo...@thinkage.ca> wrote:
>>On 2018-04-28 4:25 PM, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>>> 
>>> Electricity heating has the disadvantage that if you had a
>>> local power outage you had no heat. If you had some oil 
>>> or gas powered system you had it at least warm,
>>> although your fridge, TV and other appliances wouldn't work.
>>
>>Essentially, all modern oil and gas heating systems won't work
>>if there is a local power outage.  The control and auxiliary
>>systems (pumps, fans, igniters) are all electrically operated.
>>
>>During the big ice storm in 1998 homes gas and oil
>>were just as unheated, as those with electric heat.
>>
>>Yes there were some old fuel old space heaters in small
>>homes and cottages.  You turned it on by manually opening
>>the fuel valve and dropping a burning piece of paper
>>into the fire pit.  I have not seen one in a home in over
>>60 years.  We had one in our cottage longer than that,
>>but we did not use the cottage in the winter.
>
>My aunt in Fernandina Beach had both an oil heater like that and
>individual propane heaters/gas logs in the kitchen and other rooms.

You had an aunt in Fernandina Beach?  I went to 4th through 12th grade
there.

>We used to go down for Christmas, and the oil heater kept the main house
>above freezing, but it was certainly nice to go into the toasty warmth
>of the propane kitchen after dreading the freezing experience of getting
>out of bed upstairs.  She never had central heat or ac as long as she lived.

In article <89dfedpcidtjo4uib...@4ax.com>,
J. Clarke  <jclarke...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On 30 Apr 2018 22:53:09 GMT, t...@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan
><tednolan>) wrote:
>
>>In article <pc80jk$ckf$1...@dont-email.me>,
>>Alan Bowler  <atbo...@thinkage.ca> wrote:
>>>On 2018-04-28 4:25 PM, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Electricity heating has the disadvantage that if you had a
>>>> local power outage you had no heat. If you had some oil 
>>>> or gas powered system you had it at least warm,
>>>> although your fridge, TV and other appliances wouldn't work.
>>>
>>>Essentially, all modern oil and gas heating systems won't work
>>>if there is a local power outage.  The control and auxiliary
>>>systems (pumps, fans, igniters) are all electrically operated.
>>>
>>>During the big ice storm in 1998 homes gas and oil
>>>were just as unheated, as those with electric heat.
>>>
>>>Yes there were some old fuel old space heaters in small
>>>homes and cottages.  You turned it on by manually opening
>>>the fuel valve and dropping a burning piece of paper
>>>into the fire pit.  I have not seen one in a home in over
>>>60 years.  We had one in our cottage longer than that,
>>>but we did not use the cottage in the winter.
>>
>>My aunt in Fernandina Beach had both an oil heater like that and
>>individual propane heaters/gas logs in the kitchen and other rooms.
>
>You had an aunt in Fernandina Beach?  I went to 4th through 12th grade
>there.
>

Yep, she lived on 7th St. between Centre & Ash.  As kids we walked all over
that town.  I still visit whenever I can.
-- 
------
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What's not in Columbia anymore..

On 2018-04-30, Andrew Swallow <am.sw...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On 28/04/2018 22:11, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>> On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 16:25:34 -0400
>> Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> wrote:
>> 
>>> Electricity heating has the disadvantage that if you had a local power
>>> outage you had no heat. If you had some oil or gas powered system you had
>>> it at least warm,
>> 
>> 	Most oil and gas heating systems need electricity to function, at
>> the very least to pump water round the radiators unless it will thermosyphon
>> well, but often to run the burner.
>> 
>>> although your fridge, TV and other appliances wouldn't work.
>> 
>> 	Lights too.
>> 
>> 	I've been seriously considering UPSing my house - one consideration
>> is that the oven can take rather more than most reasonably priced inverters
>> want to handle - leave it out or pay the extra ... still thinking.
>> 
>
> Leave the cooker off the UPS. Buy a microwave that uses less than 1kW. 
> Outrages only last a few days.

++


-- 
greymaus.ireland.ie
Just_Another_Grumpy_Old_Man

On 1 May 2018 06:43:35 GMT, maus <ma...@mail.com> wrote:

>On 2018-04-30, Andrew Swallow <am.sw...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> On 28/04/2018 22:11, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>> On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 16:25:34 -0400
>>> Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Electricity heating has the disadvantage that if you had a local power
>>>> outage you had no heat. If you had some oil or gas powered system you had
>>>> it at least warm,
>>> 
>>> 	Most oil and gas heating systems need electricity to function, at
>>> the very least to pump water round the radiators unless it will thermosyphon
>>> well, but often to run the burner.
>>> 
>>>> although your fridge, TV and other appliances wouldn't work.
>>> 
>>> 	Lights too.
>>> 
>>> 	I've been seriously considering UPSing my house - one consideration
>>> is that the oven can take rather more than most reasonably priced inverters
>>> want to handle - leave it out or pay the extra ... still thinking.
>>> 
>>
>> Leave the cooker off the UPS. Buy a microwave that uses less than 1kW. 
>> Outrages only last a few days.
>
>++

Depends on the weather. I've been without electricity for 2 weeks
after a hurricane, and our house wasn't damaged.

On 4/30/2018 6:53 PM, Andrew Swallow wrote:
> On 28/04/2018 22:11, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>> On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 16:25:34 -0400
>> Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Electricity heating has the disadvantage that if you had a local power
>>> outage you had no heat. If you had some oil or gas powered system 
>>> you had
>>> it at least warm,
>>
>>     Most oil and gas heating systems need electricity to function, at
>> the very least to pump water round the radiators unless it will 
>> thermosyphon
>> well, but often to run the burner.
>>
>>> although your fridge, TV and other appliances wouldn't work.
>>
>>     Lights too.
>>
>>     I've been seriously considering UPSing my house - one consideration
>> is that the oven can take rather more than most reasonably priced 
>> inverters
>> want to handle - leave it out or pay the extra ... still thinking.
>>
> 
> Leave the cooker off the UPS. Buy a microwave that uses less than 1kW. 
> Outrages only last a few days.

For only a few days, you don't really "need" anything. I've got a gas 
stove that the burners will work (need to light with a match or 
sparker), even if the oven doesn't. A cooking burner is nice, but 
there's food that doesn't need to be cooked. Lights are a bigger 
issue, but kerosene(US usage) and now LED lamps help. Outages of more 
than a couple of hours are rare here in the city, in 30 years I've had 
only one that lasted 3 days (windstorm downed many trees and lines). 
In the boondocks, outages after a bad storm can last a week or longer. 
Nasty if it's winter, but at least there aren't many storms when it's 
-20F (-30C).

On 1 May 2018 03:52:15 GMT, t...@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>)
wrote:

>In article <89dfedpcidtjo4uib...@4ax.com>,
>J. Clarke  <jclarke...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>On 30 Apr 2018 22:53:09 GMT, t...@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan
>><tednolan>) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <pc80jk$ckf$1...@dont-email.me>,
>>>Alan Bowler  <atbo...@thinkage.ca> wrote:
>>>>On 2018-04-28 4:25 PM, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Electricity heating has the disadvantage that if you had a
>>>>> local power outage you had no heat. If you had some oil 
>>>>> or gas powered system you had it at least warm,
>>>>> although your fridge, TV and other appliances wouldn't work.
>>>>
>>>>Essentially, all modern oil and gas heating systems won't work
>>>>if there is a local power outage.  The control and auxiliary
>>>>systems (pumps, fans, igniters) are all electrically operated.
>>>>
>>>>During the big ice storm in 1998 homes gas and oil
>>>>were just as unheated, as those with electric heat.
>>>>
>>>>Yes there were some old fuel old space heaters in small
>>>>homes and cottages.  You turned it on by manually opening
>>>>the fuel valve and dropping a burning piece of paper
>>>>into the fire pit.  I have not seen one in a home in over
>>>>60 years.  We had one in our cottage longer than that,
>>>>but we did not use the cottage in the winter.
>>>
>>>My aunt in Fernandina Beach had both an oil heater like that and
>>>individual propane heaters/gas logs in the kitchen and other rooms.
>>
>>You had an aunt in Fernandina Beach?  I went to 4th through 12th grade
>>there.
>>
>
>Yep, she lived on 7th St. between Centre & Ash.  As kids we walked all over
>that town.  I still visit whenever I can.

I remember being dragged kicking and screaming to church at Saint
Peters when I would really rather have been doing just about anything.
Used to buy comic books at Steger's, and get an ice cream cone at Waas
after Dr. Stewart whose office was behind it after getting my teeth
drilled.  And Dr. Dickens driving around in his Land Rover.  And what
else.  Oh, I was sad to see that they tore down the old Welcome
Station and replaced it with something boring and ordinary.

In article <6ftheddic07f5btin...@4ax.com>,
J. Clarke  <jclarke...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On 1 May 2018 03:52:15 GMT, t...@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>)
>wrote:
>
>>In article <89dfedpcidtjo4uib...@4ax.com>,
>>J. Clarke  <jclarke...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>On 30 Apr 2018 22:53:09 GMT, t...@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan
>>><tednolan>) wrote:
>>>
>>>>In article <pc80jk$ckf$1...@dont-email.me>,
>>>>Alan Bowler  <atbo...@thinkage.ca> wrote:
>>>>>On 2018-04-28 4:25 PM, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Electricity heating has the disadvantage that if you had a
>>>>>> local power outage you had no heat. If you had some oil 
>>>>>> or gas powered system you had it at least warm,
>>>>>> although your fridge, TV and other appliances wouldn't work.
>>>>>
>>>>>Essentially, all modern oil and gas heating systems won't work
>>>>>if there is a local power outage.  The control and auxiliary
>>>>>systems (pumps, fans, igniters) are all electrically operated.
>>>>>
>>>>>During the big ice storm in 1998 homes gas and oil
>>>>>were just as unheated, as those with electric heat.
>>>>>
>>>>>Yes there were some old fuel old space heaters in small
>>>>>homes and cottages.  You turned it on by manually opening
>>>>>the fuel valve and dropping a burning piece of paper
>>>>>into the fire pit.  I have not seen one in a home in over
>>>>>60 years.  We had one in our cottage longer than that,
>>>>>but we did not use the cottage in the winter.
>>>>
>>>>My aunt in Fernandina Beach had both an oil heater like that and
>>>>individual propane heaters/gas logs in the kitchen and other rooms.
>>>
>>>You had an aunt in Fernandina Beach?  I went to 4th through 12th grade
>>>there.
>>>
>>
>>Yep, she lived on 7th St. between Centre & Ash.  As kids we walked all over
>>that town.  I still visit whenever I can.
>
>I remember being dragged kicking and screaming to church at Saint
>Peters when I would really rather have been doing just about anything.
>Used to buy comic books at Steger's, and get an ice cream cone at Waas
>after Dr. Stewart whose office was behind it after getting my teeth
>drilled.  And Dr. Dickens driving around in his Land Rover.  And what
>else.  Oh, I was sad to see that they tore down the old Welcome
>Station and replaced it with something boring and ordinary.

You may enjoy this then:

	http://columbiaclosings.com/wordpress/?tag=fernandina-beach

you can even see a painting of the old Marine Welcome Center in there.  We used
to walk down there every visit and get the free orange juice and walk around
the upstairs catwalk before they closed it.

Waas is gone (along with their annual animated Santa).  The building is
owned by the Presbyterian church now.
-- 
------
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What's not in Columbia anymore..