🚀 go-pugleaf

Dan Lingman wrote:
> 
> What do you like and dislike about the current crop of space sim games?

Current crop? And these elusive games are ... where?  :p


> Here's my list:
> 
> 1 - not enough of the darn things.  Each year there are a dozen or so FPS,
> and strategy games, but maybe 1 or 2 space sims.  Some years not at all.

Exactly. FPSes are quick fix entertainment (blast 'em all) so they're
more popular in general. I play plenty of them so I'm not criticising
the style. 

How many still-playable space sims are there anyway? MoO 1-3, SMAC,
Galactic Civilizations ... are there others?


> 2 - flight controls - I want to be back in the wing commander days -
> joystick control, fast action.  Not wack a mole with your mouse, or hit a
> button and watch your ship spin around shooting things.

I personally think this is a different type of game -- a "flight sim set
in space". I dunno if you can merge the strategic and the flight sim but
both have their place. I am flexible and have no preference but many
gamers do. 


> 3 - a real universe that makes sense.  Planets that move.  Bases that trade
> with each other.  Cargo ships that don't vanish into the twilight zone if
> you follow them into the next sector

Absolutely!


> What's on your list?

EVE online appeals to me as a living universe but I would like the
ability to leave the ship, go planetside and explore, interact, do some
roleplaying. 

I suppose my ideal space game would allow me to roleplay an individual
person (mercinary, merchant, noble, military, etc.) who can adventure
and explore like in an FPS, who can buy-sell-trade like in EVE Online,
and who could pilot my ship like a flight sim (be it single-person
fighter or command of a battlecruiser). 

It would be a massive multiplayer game but would be expensive and have a
minimum age of 30 for all players. Yes, this would unfortunately cut out
some poor and young players who are of like-mind, and it is no guarantee
against older professional jerks, but it would seriously weed out the
hordes of basement-dwellers and antisocial punks that ruin MMORPGs. And
there would be roving (pre-screened and creative) GMs who can interact
with players to add fun. 

Since you asked.   :)


  - Sheldon

Dan Lingman wrote:
> 3 - a real universe that makes sense.  Planets that move.  Bases that trade
> with each other.  Cargo ships that don't vanish into the twilight zone if
> you follow them into the next sector

I'd just add to this that the planets need to be landable for
space/econ sims to really be immersive. I realize noone has time to
render entire planets. Well, make them deserted mostly. Landing on a
planet that has exactly one city/dock/thing to do is stupid. It's a
PLANET, not a space station. Mankind handles this aspect well, I think,
tho planet surface area is way too small.

Dan Lingman wrote:

 > What do you like and dislike about the current crop of space sim
 > games?

What I really miss in the space sim genre are space sims with a good 
story.  If you want to make your virtual fortune, there are plenty of 
options, from the venerable Elite to the online EVE.  It's been a long 
time, though, since I've played a space sim game with a compelling 
storyline; the most common complaint I see in reviews of new space sims 
is 'storyline clunky and/or nonexistent'.

If anyone would care to recommend something I may have missed that I'd 
enjoy, feel free.  I've played TIE Fighter, Freespace 1&2, Independence 
War, X-Wing Alliance, Wing Commander (all), Freelancer, Star Trek Bridge 
Commander, Tachyon, Privateer 2, and StarLancer, in addition to a few 
other games (like X-Wing vs. TIE Fighter) that didn't meet this 
criteria, so I'm pretty sure I've seen everything I want to see, but I'd 
love a pleasant surprise for Christmas...

I would just like to see some. Wing Commander was the epitomy of great 
gaming in those fantastic days of old. How hard would it be to write a 
similar program these days? Graphics have improved but otherwise gaming 
stinks these days.

"Dan Lingman" <dlingman@rogers.com.nospamplease> wrote in message 
news:Xns989A61A03D9B0dlingmanrogerscom@216.196.97.131...
> What do you like and dislike about the current crop of space sim games?
>
> Here's my list:
>
> 1 - not enough of the darn things.  Each year there are a dozen or so FPS,
> and strategy games, but maybe 1 or 2 space sims.  Some years not at all.
>
> 2 - flight controls - I want to be back in the wing commander days -
> joystick control, fast action.  Not wack a mole with your mouse, or hit a
> button and watch your ship spin around shooting things.
>
> 3 - a real universe that makes sense.  Planets that move.  Bases that 
> trade
> with each other.  Cargo ships that don't vanish into the twilight zone if
> you follow them into the next sector
>
> What's on your list?
> Dan Lingman
> nogotogames.com 

"Nats" <nstutt@homecall.co.uk> wrote in message 
news:458584ec$1_1@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com...
>I would just like to see some. Wing Commander was the epitomy of great 
>gaming in those fantastic days of old. How hard would it be to write a 
>similar program these days? Graphics have improved but otherwise gaming 
>stinks these days.

I agree,  my fondest gaming memories are with some Origin titles
of that era. Especially Wing Commander 1 & 2. But also Privateer
and Ultima 7.

There's been a few good shooters over the years since then, but nothing
quite as fun and addicting.  I think Freelancer came closest (in my 
opinion).

Dan Lingman <dlingman@rogers.com.nospamplease> wrote in
news:Xns989A61A03D9B0dlingmanrogerscom@216.196.97.131: 

> What do you like and dislike about the current crop of space sim
> games? 
> 
> Here's my list:
> 
> 1 - not enough of the darn things.  Each year there are a dozen or so
> FPS, and strategy games, but maybe 1 or 2 space sims.  Some years not
> at all. 
> 
> 2 - flight controls - I want to be back in the wing commander days - 
> joystick control, fast action.  Not wack a mole with your mouse, or
> hit a button and watch your ship spin around shooting things.
> 
> 3 - a real universe that makes sense.  Planets that move.  Bases that
> trade with each other.  Cargo ships that don't vanish into the
> twilight zone if you follow them into the next sector
> 
> What's on your list?
> Dan Lingman
> nogotogames.com
> 

Would like to thank everyone who's replied so far to my request.  I have 
to admit, I've got a motive for doing so.  Telefilm Canada is running a 
Game design and development competition that I've entered - my 
submission, if accepted, will be a space sim.  A few of the things that 
people have commented on, that didn't make the list (for the first 
version at least) would be the landing on planets, and the massively 
multiplayer.  I'll barely have time/resources to put together a space 
combat/trading game, let alone add a FPS to it, and for a company 
starting out, building a game is hard, but building a MMO is hugely hard.

No clue as of yet how my submission has been received, or what else I'm 
up against in the competition, but I feel quite confident that I will get 
something built.

Keep the ideas coming.  Will let you know what happens.

Dan.

Dan Lingman wrote:
> 
> Would like to thank everyone who's replied so far to my request.  I have
> to admit, I've got a motive for doing so. 
...
> No clue as of yet how my submission has been received, or what else I'm
> up against in the competition, but I feel quite confident that I will get
> something built.

Well, that's about the most worthy reason I can think of. Good luck with
your submission and project ... and please keep developing games
regardless!


> Keep the ideas coming.  Will let you know what happens.

How about ... space sharks with laser beams for eyes?  ;)


  - Sheldon

What do I really want to see in a space sim trading game?

Well something that is a pure space flight exploration trading game,
where everyone is the pilot and have the opportunity to test out their
piloting skills. Not skill points or anything that is point and click
that everything unfolds. Your ship is the avatar, period.

There should be a couple of ship style sets for players to fly where
most of them do not look like futuristic fighter jets. Belonging to
either a faction small or large or government like corperations that
manufactures them where you can purchase them depending on the
reputation ratings. There should also be some ships that are not in a
ship style set.

And a few unflyable ships should be included as well.

Ship style sets means a set of ships with the same shape colors, shape
design of the ship body and cockpit, explosion colors, and mabie sounds
as well. While the structures are still different when it comes to
variety of ships like fighters(more than one type), bombers, utility
ships, cargo ships, and so on. Some ship style sets can be symmetrical,
or asymmetrical, can come without a cockpit window or with a cockpit
window.

As for adding capital ships to a space trading game, their main purpose
is to be used as a squad's flag ship or a portable home for a group of
players. Not just another ship or an option that an extremely rich
player can obtain and ditch space flight for the rest of their space
mmo carrear.

NPC wingman don't belong to any mmo because it's what you have players
for. NPCs should only play a background role to only populate the
universe.

The universe doesn't have to be 100% realistic because what I want over
everything else is the gameplay. It's what you call a sci-(fiction)
game of course. Mostly not real of course.

This suggestion was mostly an MMO because if there was a space trading
game that existed as a single player and had capabilities to become
multiplayer, it would require a ton of bandwidth and computer resources
to get an online universe populated with players which is the reason
why there are a couple of existing space trading games like Darkstar
One, Pakran II, and mabie Tomorrow War are single player only with
developers refusing to make it go multiplayer.

There I stop trying to spoil myself.

totalfork@rock.com wrote in news:1166501802.350960.277710@
80g2000cwy.googlegroups.com:

> What do I really want to see in a space sim trading game?
> 
> Well something that is a pure space flight exploration trading game,
> where everyone is the pilot and have the opportunity to test out their
> piloting skills. Not skill points or anything that is point and click
> that everything unfolds. Your ship is the avatar, period.
> 
That's the plan for what I've proposed. You'll never see your face in the 
game. One concession is that better targeting computers make it easier to 
hit the enemy ships.  Most games have a target lead indicator - get the 
crosshairs over that, and you're likely to score a hit.  With improved 
targeting, you'll get a larger lead indicator, which will make it easier 
to hit the enemy ship.  This is much more important if you're trying to 
target subsystems on the ship, which will require much more precise 
shooting.

> There should be a couple of ship style sets for players to fly where
> most of them do not look like futuristic fighter jets. Belonging to
> either a faction small or large or government like corperations that
> manufactures them where you can purchase them depending on the
> reputation ratings. There should also be some ships that are not in a
> ship style set.

The plan is to have a series of hull types that can be modded - 
everything from small fighters to lumbering cargo ships.  There are no 
plans to let the player fly capital ships.  There will be some 
predesigned ships, but the player can shift things around a fair bit.
> 
> And a few unflyable ships should be included as well.
> 
> Ship style sets means a set of ships with the same shape colors, shape
> design of the ship body and cockpit, explosion colors, and mabie sounds
> as well. While the structures are still different when it comes to
> variety of ships like fighters(more than one type), bombers, utility
> ships, cargo ships, and so on. Some ship style sets can be symmetrical,
> or asymmetrical, can come without a cockpit window or with a cockpit
> window.

Long live the B-wing...

> 
> As for adding capital ships to a space trading game, their main purpose
> is to be used as a squad's flag ship or a portable home for a group of
> players. Not just another ship or an option that an extremely rich
> player can obtain and ditch space flight for the rest of their space
> mmo carrear.
> 
> NPC wingman don't belong to any mmo because it's what you have players
> for. NPCs should only play a background role to only populate the
> universe.
> 
> The universe doesn't have to be 100% realistic because what I want over
> everything else is the gameplay. It's what you call a sci-(fiction)
> game of course. Mostly not real of course.
> 
> This suggestion was mostly an MMO because if there was a space trading
> game that existed as a single player and had capabilities to become
> multiplayer, it would require a ton of bandwidth and computer resources
> to get an online universe populated with players which is the reason
> why there are a couple of existing space trading games like Darkstar
> One, Pakran II, and mabie Tomorrow War are single player only with
> developers refusing to make it go multiplayer.
> 

The first version (at least) of what I want to build will be single 
player only. Making a game is hard enough, without adding the huge layer 
of complexity that a MMO adds.


> There I stop trying to spoil myself.
> 
> 

Thanks for the tips.

Dan.

In article <Xns989E5D8CF8E1Fdlingmanrogerscom@216.196.97.131>, 
dlingman@rogers.com.nospamplease says...
> 
> Long live the B-wing...
> 

No. Wings are something that _space_ships do NOT need. Gosh, how I loathe and 
despise that lazy thoughtlessnes. They make sense on a lander or on an upper 
atmosphere craft, but none at all in space.

A ball has the highest volume to surface ratio as well as pressure resistance - 
think insulation/energy efficiency & structural integrity. However: have you 
ever tried putting up shelves in a round room? I think if I had to design a 
cargo hauler for space, it'd look like a shoebox with a drive tacked on.

-P.

-- 
=========================================
firstname dot lastname at gmail fullstop com

On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 18:28:48 +1300, Peter Huebner wrote:

>cargo hauler for space, it'd look like a shoebox with a drive tacked on.

Pretty much like a Borg spaceship. ;-)

Aleks

Dan Lingman wrote:
> What do you like and dislike about the current crop of space sim games?
>
> Here's my list:
>
> 1 - not enough of the darn things.  Each year there are a dozen or so FPS,
> and strategy games, but maybe 1 or 2 space sims.  Some years not at all.

Yep.

> 2 - flight controls - I want to be back in the wing commander days -
> joystick control, fast action.  Not wack a mole with your mouse, or hit a
> button and watch your ship spin around shooting things.

Yep.  Not really making much sense since computers would be far better
at targeting than a human, but it's more fun that way.

> 3 - a real universe that makes sense.  Planets that move.  Bases that trade
> with each other.  Cargo ships that don't vanish into the twilight zone if
> you follow them into the next sector

Sounds good.

IMHO the best space sim was Wing Commander 3.  Possibly the best game
evar!  You had good space combat, you had a good story with good
acting.  

- Justisaur