🚀 go-pugleaf

In message 
<449e55f1$0$6623$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au>, Ceowulf 
<ceo@NOSPAMii.ATALLnet> writes
>I joined up the free trial, and was liking what I saw, until the tutorial
>flew me right through the space station you start on, and then through the
>planet that was orbiting it.
>
>Quit almost immediately, not much a space sim when nothing is actually
>there.
>
Umm, that's warp drive. If you are prepared to accept ftl travel you are 
violating the known laws of physics to start with, and warping "through" 
a solid object is not much of a stretch. You can't navigate through a 
space station (or planet) using your normal drive - indeed getting "hung 
up" on an obstacle such as a station or an asteroid is a well-known 
problem - they most certainly are "there".
That said, this is not a "space sim" in the style of MS Flight Simulator 
- it is a game which assumes the invention of a number of currently 
unknown technologies and physical phenomena for game purposes.
-- 
John Secker

"John Secker" <john@secker.demon.co.uk> wrote in message 
news:Tb2SJnAmnpnEFwgP@secker.demon.co.uk...
> In message <449e55f1$0$6623$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au>, 
> Ceowulf <ceo@NOSPAMii.ATALLnet> writes
>>I joined up the free trial, and was liking what I saw, until the tutorial
>>flew me right through the space station you start on, and then through the
>>planet that was orbiting it.
>>
>>Quit almost immediately, not much a space sim when nothing is actually
>>there.
>>
> Umm, that's warp drive. If you are prepared to accept ftl travel you are 
> violating the known laws of physics to start with, and warping "through" a 
> solid object is not much of a stretch. You can't navigate through a space 
> station (or planet) using your normal drive - indeed getting "hung up" on 
> an obstacle such as a station or an asteroid is a well-known problem - 
> they most certainly are "there".
> That said, this is not a "space sim" in the style of MS Flight Simulator - 
> it is a game which assumes the invention of a number of currently unknown 
> technologies and physical phenomena for game purposes.
> -- 
> John Secker

Yeah, I that's how I dealt with the "no-clipping" phenomenon.  Could've 
sworn tho' that even if you're sitting completely shut down right at the 
entrance to a station, other ships seem to pass through you as they 
exit/enter.  Well, maybe they'd already activated their warp drives(you can 
activate it immediately as soon as you get the in-space screen....but for 
some reason you have wait about 15 seconds, if you want to re-dock).  . 
Anyway, in this type of game, I don't worry too much about "unreal" stuff. 

>I joined up the free trial, and was liking what I saw, until the tutorial 
>flew me right through the space station you start on, and then through the 
>planet that was orbiting it.
>
> Quit almost immediately, not much a space sim when nothing is actually 
> there.
>
> Ceo-


You expected the game to be something its not. If you want a simulator, I 
recall some old games where you could pilot a NASA space shuttle and 
stuff.... If you want a space ship simulator other than that, you have to 
wait for such actually exsist.

My 3 year in EVE is approaching in July. Game is more fun than when I 
joined, it gets better and better. Dont expect anyone to hold your hand. 
There is no end game, you can't catch up with older players, but the game 
got lots of milage left on it.

If you want to take part in a game where the players creates the content and 
decide the flow of the game world. Take part in epic battles and campaigns 
to shift the powers in the game, or just be whatever you want to be, then 
EVE is a great and open game to play.

Some nice EVE trailers that show what EVE can be.

No Other Destiny; 
http://myeve.eve-online.com/download/videos/Default.asp?a=download&vid=146
EVE never fades; 
http://myeve.eve-online.com/download/videos/Default.asp?a=download&vid=144

In message <1gAng.3166$uo.1416@trnddc07>, DocScorpio 
<DocScorpio@strupra-spammeros.com> writes
>
>"John Secker" <john@secker.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:Tb2SJnAmnpnEFwgP@secker.demon.co.uk...
>> In message <449e55f1$0$6623$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au>,
>> Ceowulf <ceo@NOSPAMii.ATALLnet> writes
>>>I joined up the free trial, and was liking what I saw, until the tutorial
>>>flew me right through the space station you start on, and then through the
>>>planet that was orbiting it.
>>>
>>>Quit almost immediately, not much a space sim when nothing is actually
>>>there.
>>>
>> Umm, that's warp drive. If you are prepared to accept ftl travel you are
>> violating the known laws of physics to start with, and warping "through" a
>> solid object is not much of a stretch. You can't navigate through a space
>> station (or planet) using your normal drive - indeed getting "hung up" on
>> an obstacle such as a station or an asteroid is a well-known problem -
>> they most certainly are "there".
>> That said, this is not a "space sim" in the style of MS Flight Simulator -
>> it is a game which assumes the invention of a number of currently unknown
>> technologies and physical phenomena for game purposes.
>> --
>> John Secker
>
>Yeah, I that's how I dealt with the "no-clipping" phenomenon.  Could've
>sworn tho' that even if you're sitting completely shut down right at the
>entrance to a station, other ships seem to pass through you as they
>exit/enter.  Well, maybe they'd already activated their warp drives(you can
>activate it immediately as soon as you get the in-space screen....but for
>some reason you have wait about 15 seconds, if you want to re-dock).  .
>Anyway, in this type of game, I don't worry too much about "unreal" stuff.
>
>
Yeah, in general ships bounce off each other, but right in the docking 
tube of a station they don't - I guess because otherwise it would be too 
easy to sit and block the entrance to prevent someone else entering or 
leaving. I saw yesterday that someone got warned for dumping a whole 
load of shuttles all around the entrance to a station, thus causing a 
jam. I guess if they were just outside the docking tube then the 
interpenetration wouldn't work, so the entrance was blocked. As I say, 
from what I heard this was warned as an exploit.
-- 
John Secker

Ceowulf wrote:
> I joined up the free trial, and was liking what I saw, until the tutorial
> flew me right through the space station you start on, and then through the
> planet that was orbiting it.
>
> Quit almost immediately, not much a space sim when nothing is actually
> there.
>
> Ceo-

I agree with you that it's a major "immersion factor" issue for me as
well. Anyone who sees me play the game, and i still do, watching my
ship fly right through planets goes "ewwwwwww"

One has to justify this by assuming in warp you're ethereal or anything
really, because it's such an eyesore and makes the planets seem like
paper tigers. You're forced to come up with a rationale, if you really
want to continue playing.

In issue #3 of EON (eve's reallife magazine) they do talk about this as
an issue. They know it, and i'm sure it's the number one complaint from
casual observers. Heck, the pinball like bouncing one gets if you warp
too close to a station is inconvenient and prevents a willing
suspension of disbelief.

*shrug* The bottom line is that it's a glorified arcade game, and thank
god everything DOESN'T look like a flash gordon remake.

In article <1152282081.622555.16890@k73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, 
bdu_majorfreak@hotmail.com says...
> 
> Ceowulf wrote:
> > I joined up the free trial, and was liking what I saw, until the tutorial
> > flew me right through the space station you start on, and then through the
> > planet that was orbiting it.
> >
> > Quit almost immediately, not much a space sim when nothing is actually
> > there.
> >
> > Ceo-
> 
> I agree with you that it's a major "immersion factor" issue for me as
> well. Anyone who sees me play the game, and i still do, watching my
> ship fly right through planets goes "ewwwwwww"
> 
> One has to justify this by assuming in warp you're ethereal or anything
> really, because it's such an eyesore and makes the planets seem like
> paper tigers. You're forced to come up with a rationale, if you really
> want to continue playing.
> 
> In issue #3 of EON (eve's reallife magazine) they do talk about this as
> an issue. They know it, and i'm sure it's the number one complaint from
> casual observers. Heck, the pinball like bouncing one gets if you warp
> too close to a station is inconvenient and prevents a willing
> suspension of disbelief.
> 
> *shrug* The bottom line is that it's a glorified arcade game, and thank
> god everything DOESN'T look like a flash gordon remake.
> 
> 

Hmmm, I haven't actually flown through planets myself but through the interior 
of space stations (hey look mom, it's only a hollow shell with nothing inside)
and what irks me more than anything are 1) the hollow ship -- if I rotate the 
view while zoomed in too close I break through the skin of my ship and see it's 
a hollow eggshell as well - ewwwww indeed - 2) the pathfinding around 
collidable objects. I don't want to recall how often I have targetted a 
container immediately behind an asteroid, for instance, and ended up with the 
ship futilely bumping its nose into the rock for half an hour. Same goes for 
the launching tubes on some of the space stations, you bounce around for a 
couple of minutes if you don't take pity and manually steer the ship in a 
direction that's open space. Come Oooooon! 

But no, other than that I have little difficulty with the suspension of 
disbelief. I have a lot more trouble with the griefers (being) in the game.
Gate campers shooting up newbies - sheesh. Maybe if I stay around long enough, 
I shall form a company of bounty hunters one day. Just as soon as I get that 
Deimos running. By the time I have the skills to fly one, the price will be 
small change .... but I doubt I'll be paying a sub for that long; I do have a 
real life as well.

-P.

-- 
=========================================
firstname dot lastname at gmail fullstop com

In message <MPG.1f19d539f3904aa4989a20@news.individual.net>, Peter 
Huebner <no.one@this.address> writes
>But no, other than that I have little difficulty with the suspension of
>disbelief. I have a lot more trouble with the griefers (being) in the game.
>Gate campers shooting up newbies - sheesh. Maybe if I stay around long enough,
>I shall form a company of bounty hunters one day. Just as soon as I get that
>Deimos running. By the time I have the skills to fly one, the price will be
>small change .... but I doubt I'll be paying a sub for that long; I do have a
>real life as well.
>
>-P.
>
Peter - where are you having trouble with gate campers? There are not 
that many in Empire space - some, but not many, and a bit of care, plus 
most importantly the use of instas, should see you safe enough. It was 
two or three months before I encountered a gate pirate - and then it was 
really my fault because I was travelling afk and came back to my PC to 
find myself in a clone. In my humble opinion things like that add to the 
experience, rather than detract - they add a challenge, and the fact 
that you are competing with other humans, rather than a programmed game 
function, makes it all the more interesting. Your mileage may vary, of 
course.
And of course, if you are being gate camped in 0.0, you have only 
yourself to blame. :) It's dangerous enough out there for the most 
experienced, so a noob is not going to have much of a life expectancy.
-- 
John Secker

"John Secker" <john@secker.demon.co.uk> wrote in message 
news:EqFH1HFYo5rEFwgp@secker.demon.co.uk...
> In message <MPG.1f19d539f3904aa4989a20@news.individual.net>, Peter Huebner 
> <no.one@this.address> writes
>>But no, other than that I have little difficulty with the suspension of
>>disbelief. I have a lot more trouble with the griefers (being) in the 
>>game.
>>Gate campers shooting up newbies - sheesh. Maybe if I stay around long 
>>enough,
>>I shall form a company of bounty hunters one day. Just as soon as I get 
>>that
>>Deimos running. By the time I have the skills to fly one, the price will 
>>be
>>small change .... but I doubt I'll be paying a sub for that long; I do 
>>have a
>>real life as well.
>>
>>-P.
>>
> Peter - where are you having trouble with gate campers? There are not that 
> many in Empire space - some, but not many, and a bit of care, plus most 
> importantly the use of instas, should see you safe enough. It was two or 
> three months before I encountered a gate pirate - and then it was really 
> my fault because I was travelling afk and came back to my PC to find 
> myself in a clone. In my humble opinion things like that add to the 
> experience, rather than detract - they add a challenge, and the fact that 
> you are competing with other humans, rather than a programmed game 
> function, makes it all the more interesting. Your mileage may vary, of 
> course.
> And of course, if you are being gate camped in 0.0, you have only yourself 
> to blame. :) It's dangerous enough out there for the most experienced, so 
> a noob is not going to have much of a life expectancy.
> -- 
> John Secker

There also seems to be an issue with pk'ers preying on noobs in the tutorial 
training areas (i.e., using ploys to get them flagged, so they can kill 
them). 

In article <EqFH1HFYo5rEFwgp@secker.demon.co.uk>, john@secker.demon.co.uk 
says...
> Peter - where are you having trouble with gate campers? There are not 
> that many in Empire space - some, but not many, and a bit of care, plus 
> most importantly the use of instas, should see you safe enough. It was 
> two or three months before I encountered a gate pirate - and then it was 
> really my fault because I was travelling afk and came back to my PC to 
> find myself in a clone. In my humble opinion things like that add to the 
> experience, rather than detract - they add a challenge, and the fact 
> that you are competing with other humans, rather than a programmed game 
> function, makes it all the more interesting. Your mileage may vary, of 
> course.
> And of course, if you are being gate camped in 0.0, you have only 
> yourself to blame. :) It's dangerous enough out there for the most 
> experienced, so a noob is not going to have much of a life expectancy.
> 

John, I haven't been pod-killed myself. The two guys I originally started out 
with, however, were both severally ambushed and podded while traversing .4 
systems not too far from the Centre - in the Everyshore region mostly. I myself 
was jumped from behind in a similar situation, I was traversing a .4, thought 
to take a look at the belts, found a couple of rats and while I was taking down 
the rats some dude warped in, warp-jammed me and proceeded to shoot missiles up 
my tailpipes. Cowardly dastard. I cottoned on to what was happening (cause 
these rats didn't have missiles), sicked my drones on him, and managed to fight 
him to a standstill - after about 15 minutes he ran because he figured I was 
getting the upper hand or that he couldn't crack my ship anyway. Well - I was 
starting to strip his Caldari armor by that time.

But no, I don't much care for that, neither for my friends being ambushed while 
flying an Iteron 1 from system to system or an unarmed mining frigate, nor this 
sneaking up from behind. I see them coming, the newbs on rookie help who jabber 
on "Where can I kill some people" before they have even done the tutorial.
I guess you get them in every multiplayer game, guess the old thing about the 
heat and the kitchen applies. But I don't have to *enjoy* the company of 
antisocial pricks, do I?    :-)
 
I am probably well enough equipped and skilled by now to give most griefers in 
.4 a run for their money, but funnily enough I go there less now that I did as 
a rookie, and I never go into .3 in anything other than a shuttle to do fed-ex 
or pick up a skill book or s.th. like that - I tend to be a[n over]cautious 
player if anything.

I have less problems with it if people/corps/alliances decide to have a war 
over resources/territory/whatever -- it's straight up, it's open, and you can 
decide if you want to participate or take a walk. Like I said, it's people in 
battlecruisers shooting at Newbs flying Kestrels bearing mining lasers that get 
my goat.
Shit, everybody can go down to the kindergarten and punch up a 3-year old.
What's the point, and what have you proved. Well you got one upset 3-year old, 
that's for sure. Hooray! <sigh> 

regds,   -Peter

-- 
=========================================
firstname dot lastname at gmail fullstop com

In message <MPG.1f1bc4e4af36847f989a21@news.individual.net>, Peter 
Huebner <no.one@this.address> writes
>In article <EqFH1HFYo5rEFwgp@secker.demon.co.uk>, john@secker.demon.co.uk
>says...
>> Peter - where are you having trouble with gate campers? There are not
>> that many in Empire space - some, but not many, and a bit of care, plus
>> most importantly the use of instas, should see you safe enough. It was
>> two or three months before I encountered a gate pirate - and then it was
>> really my fault because I was travelling afk and came back to my PC to
>> find myself in a clone. In my humble opinion things like that add to the
>> experience, rather than detract - they add a challenge, and the fact
>> that you are competing with other humans, rather than a programmed game
>> function, makes it all the more interesting. Your mileage may vary, of
>> course.
>> And of course, if you are being gate camped in 0.0, you have only
>> yourself to blame. :) It's dangerous enough out there for the most
>> experienced, so a noob is not going to have much of a life expectancy.
>>
>
>John, I haven't been pod-killed myself. The two guys I originally started out
>with, however, were both severally ambushed and podded while traversing .4
>systems not too far from the Centre - in the Everyshore region mostly. 
>I myself
>was jumped from behind in a similar situation, I was traversing a .4, thought
>to take a look at the belts, found a couple of rats and while I was 
>taking down
>the rats some dude warped in, warp-jammed me and proceeded to shoot 
>missiles up
>my tailpipes. Cowardly dastard. I cottoned on to what was happening (cause
>these rats didn't have missiles), sicked my drones on him, and managed 
>to fight
>him to a standstill - after about 15 minutes he ran because he figured I was
>getting the upper hand or that he couldn't crack my ship anyway. Well - I was
>starting to strip his Caldari armor by that time.
>
>But no, I don't much care for that, neither for my friends being 
>ambushed while
>flying an Iteron 1 from system to system or an unarmed mining frigate, 
>nor this
>sneaking up from behind. I see them coming, the newbs on rookie help 
>who jabber
>on "Where can I kill some people" before they have even done the tutorial.
>I guess you get them in every multiplayer game, guess the old thing about the
>heat and the kitchen applies. But I don't have to *enjoy* the company of
>antisocial pricks, do I?    :-)
>
>I am probably well enough equipped and skilled by now to give most griefers in
>.4 a run for their money, but funnily enough I go there less now that I did as
>a rookie, and I never go into .3 in anything other than a shuttle to do fed-ex
>or pick up a skill book or s.th. like that - I tend to be a[n over]cautious
>player if anything.
>
>I have less problems with it if people/corps/alliances decide to have a war
>over resources/territory/whatever -- it's straight up, it's open, and you can
>decide if you want to participate or take a walk. Like I said, it's people in
>battlecruisers shooting at Newbs flying Kestrels bearing mining lasers 
>that get
>my goat.
>Shit, everybody can go down to the kindergarten and punch up a 3-year old.
>What's the point, and what have you proved. Well you got one upset 3-year old,
>that's for sure. Hooray! <sigh>
>
>regds,   -Peter
>
Well I wouldn't quite say "if you can't stand the heat get out of the 
kitchen" but I would say that this is the sort of game it is. There is 
risk everywhere, though there are strategies to minimise risk, and areas 
where it is naturally very low. It is not actually all that easy to kill 
a Kestrel with a BC and get away with it, not in high-sec space. And a 
noob is not a 3-year old, of course, they are a grown up who can figure 
out (or learn by asking) strategies which will allow them to survive and 
do what they want to do in the game. And if they are "killed" - well 
no-one is hurt, and you learn more from your mistakes than any number of 
successes.
If there was no risk, and particularly if there was no human-generated 
risk , then the game would just be an elaborate resource-management 
simulator. Which, if that's what you want, is fine. But for me the 
presence of living enemies adds something important to the game. 
Personally I have never killed anyone other than people who attacked 
first, or enemies in a declared and formal war. I have been killed by 
pirates three or four times. But if I could choose to play in an 
identical version, except that piracy and unprovoked attacks were 
impossible, then I would not choose to do so. There is a genuine feeling 
of fear and tension when you are being hunted - will I get to the gate 
before he locks me, can I warp out of the belt before I am scrambled? 
It's a frontier game, and a frontier without danger just doesn't cut it.
But - and I can't say this too often - this is just my opinion. This 
game suits me, my personality, my style of play, what I want to get out 
of it. The pirates add to that - for me. But that doesn't make me right, 
and if you dislike them and they spoil the game for you, that doesn't 
make you wrong. All I can say is that I like this game a lot, and try to 
explain why.
-- 
John Secker

> But no, I don't much care for that, neither for my friends being ambushed 
> while
> flying an Iteron 1 from system to system or an unarmed mining frigate, nor 
> this
> sneaking up from behind. I see them coming, the newbs on rookie help who 
> jabber
> on "Where can I kill some people" before they have even done the tutorial.
> I guess you get them in every multiplayer game, guess the old thing about 
> the
> heat and the kitchen applies. But I don't have to *enjoy* the company of
> antisocial pricks, do I?    :-)

There is no such thing as being ambushed in low sec. You have the tools at 
hand, you can check the map
to see how many been blown up, podded etc last hour and last 24h. If you run 
a industrial ship, or a
unarmed miner, its just your own stupidity that is to blame if you go into 
low sec and get blown up.

To call players who choosen a profession you dont necessary agree with for 
"antisocial pricks" says more
about you than them to be honest.


> I am probably well enough equipped and skilled by now to give most 
> griefers in
> .4 a run for their money, but funnily enough I go there less now that I 
> did as
> a rookie, and I never go into .3 in anything other than a shuttle to do 
> fed-ex
> or pick up a skill book or s.th. like that - I tend to be a[n 
> over]cautious
> player if anything.

There is no difference between 0.4 and 0.1 space, its low sec just the same. 
Same rules applies. EVE is a mmorpg game, with serious focus on the PVP 
aspect. Everything is pvp, wether its to fight someones ship to compete on 
the market to sell your merchandise and corner the competition. You are 
still a rookie imho and I doubt you are able to combat a cup of piss and 
come out of it without reek of it.

> I have less problems with it if people/corps/alliances decide to have a 
> war
> over resources/territory/whatever -- it's straight up, it's open, and you 
> can
> decide if you want to participate or take a walk. Like I said, it's people 
> in
> battlecruisers shooting at Newbs flying Kestrels bearing mining lasers 
> that get
> my goat.
> Shit, everybody can go down to the kindergarten and punch up a 3-year old.
> What's the point, and what have you proved. Well you got one upset 3-year 
> old,
> that's for sure. Hooray! <sigh>

1.0 -> 0.5 space is for you. You should also make sure you are in a NPC 
Corp, such as the starter school or the default NPC Corp for your 
race/faction at all times, Because god forbid if someone did war your player 
Corp. 0.4-0.1 space and 0.0 is lawless space, anything goes. The one with 
the biggest gun do the talking. Once you try enter 0.4 or less you get a pop 
up message informing about the dangers. Going to low sec is the players 
choice, and by do so he is bound to accept the risk of doing so. Living in 
low sec and 0.0 require of the player to take better care, and most of all 
get a clue about what to do other than moan about someone "griefed" him by 
blow him up without ask for permission, doh! oO

Peter Huebner wrote:
> The two guys I originally started out with, however, were both severally ambushed and podded while traversing .4 
> systems not too far from the Centre - in the Everyshore region mostly.

There's your problem right there. 0.4 space SUCKS for prats, because all 
the "anti-social pricks" hang out there, as they think it "safe". 
Everyshore's bad since the low-sec space is connected to Empire space; 
it's an isolated pocket, and it's ripe for prats looking for some grief 
action.

A real solution is just to keep moving down the low-sec ladder; you 
won't see hardly any prats in 0.2, and 0.1 is practically a wasteland; 
those that do venture out there are usually just passing through, or not 
interested in fighting with you (they recognize you as a waste of ammo 
and time).



> I am probably well enough equipped and skilled by now to give most griefers in 
> .4 a run for their money, but funnily enough I go there less now that I did as 
> a rookie, and I never go into .3 in anything other than a shuttle to do fed-ex 
> or pick up a skill book or s.th. like that - I tend to be a[n over]cautious 
> player if anything.

Ah, but caution killed the cat. The real money is to be made in 
low-sec/no-sec, and the real fun's out there too. It sounds as though 
you can handle yourself pretty well; fetch up some insurance and have a 
ball.

My best is being ore-thieved by a real rat bastard; a lifetime griefer 
if there ever was one. I caught him running back in a shuttle one time, 
and I took my ore outta his hide. That's what makes EVE such a great game.

> I have less problems with it if people/corps/alliances decide to have a war 
> over resources/territory/whatever -- it's straight up, it's open, and you can 
> decide if you want to participate or take a walk.

Actually, if your player corp accepts a wardec, you're stuck in the 
middle of it; you CAN be shot at WITHOUT penalty even in 1.0 systems, if 
you happen upon a rival warring corp member. There isn't any 
play-or-walk once you step into the world of player corps.

> Like I said, it's people in 
> battlecruisers shooting at Newbs flying Kestrels bearing mining lasers that get 
> my goat.

You'll always find them, anyway. It's part of the anonymous Internet 
that brings out the worst in socially maladjusted 13-year olds. And I'm 
sure you didn't mean it, but the Kestrel can't carry mining lasers. 
Plus, if you have it set up right, a kessie is capable of avoiding a Rox 
almost completely, and giving it something to think about while it 
strips the shields clean (most idiots just use extenders, it's just a 
matter of time until an equipped rocket kessie blows it away).


TheSmokingGnu

In message <MDmsg.4582$Ey2.3619@fe04.lga>, TheSmokingGnu 
<anonymityisavirtue@1111011010011.com> writes
>> I have less problems with it if people/corps/alliances decide to have 
>>a war  over resources/territory/whatever -- it's straight up, it's 
>>open, and you can  decide if you want to participate or take a walk.
>
>Actually, if your player corp accepts a wardec, you're stuck in the 
>middle of it; you CAN be shot at WITHOUT penalty even in 1.0 systems, 
>if you happen upon a rival warring corp member. There isn't any 
>play-or-walk once you step into the world of player corps.
>
"Accepts" a wardec? I didn't think you had any choice in the matter, as 
long as the aggressor corp pays Concord's war fee. Is there some way to 
reject a war?
>> Like I said, it's people in  battlecruisers shooting at Newbs flying 
>>Kestrels bearing mining lasers that get  my goat.
>
>You'll always find them, anyway. It's part of the anonymous Internet 
>that brings out the worst in socially maladjusted 13-year olds. And I'm 
>sure you didn't mean it, but the Kestrel can't carry mining lasers. 
>Plus, if you have it set up right, a kessie is capable of avoiding a 
>Rox almost completely, and giving it something to think about while it 
>strips the shields clean (most idiots just use extenders, it's just a 
>matter of time until an equipped rocket kessie blows it away).
>
His bad luck to pick a ship with no turret hardpoints. But if the BC 
pilot hasn't just fallen out of a tree he'll have a few drones in his 
bay to deal with pesky Kestrels, and if you stay far enough away the 
artillery will get you. Don't know how you set up a Ferox, I fly 
Minmatar only, but I would take a Cyclone over a Kestrel any day. Worst 
that can happen is that the Cyclone is entirely set up for close range, 
and you keep far away - in which case he can warp off. But if he has 
720mm fitted you will pop very quickly.
-- 
John Secker

In article <44b1b340$0$17948$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net>, 
wsg@lways-nospam-.online.no says...
> 
> To call players who choosen a profession you dont necessary agree with for 
> "antisocial pricks" says more
> about you than them to be honest.
> 

I think I can tell the colour of YOUR lightsaber. I invited into my home a 
woman from Denmark once who thought that 'chosing' the profession of Terrorist 
made it an ok and honorable thing to be. She ended up stealing $100 and a pair 
of boots from my house before running off. Friend of yours?

> 
> There is no difference between 0.4 and 0.1 space, its low sec just the same. 
> Same rules applies. EVE is a mmorpg game, with serious focus on the PVP 
> aspect. Everything is pvp, wether its to fight someones ship to compete on 
> the market to sell your merchandise and corner the competition. You are 
> still a rookie imho and I doubt you are able to combat a cup of piss and 
> come out of it without reek of it.
> 

Of course I am a fscking newbie, and don't I know it. As The Smoking Gnu said, 
any high calibre player would consider me a waste of ammo. And I damn well know 
that I can never catch up to them, because they keep training at the same speed 
as I do; even if their skill levels tick over a bit more slowly on some of the 
really big ticket items.
As for combatting a cup of piss, if you are in the 1 mil skillpoint range you 
might get a nasty surprise. If you are in the 10 mil skillpoint range, there is 
not even a point in my stepping up to the mat. So? You didn't get the point of 
that argument the first time around, so I expect you won't this time either.

-P.

-- 
=========================================
firstname dot lastname at gmail fullstop com

>> To call players who choosen a profession you dont necessary agree with 
>> for
>> "antisocial pricks" says more
>> about you than them to be honest.

> I think I can tell the colour of YOUR lightsaber. I invited into my home a
> woman from Denmark once who thought that 'chosing' the profession of 
> Terrorist
> made it an ok and honorable thing to be. She ended up stealing $100 and a 
> pair
> of boots from my house before running off. Friend of yours?

Calling me a terrorist? tsk tsk .. how petty of you.

Im a jack of all trades. (master of many actually). I never done piracy in 
the game, or shoot other players for the
sake of fun and pamper my ego feeling brave doing some small gnat that is no 
danger to me.

I fought in several wars, sometimes even odds, others vs supperior numbers 
and more experienced players. However,
I didnt sit down start cry for that reason, or start swear and curse at the 
players that wared us. Its all about accept the
game for what it is and adapt to the situation.

> Of course I am a fscking newbie, and don't I know it. As The Smoking Gnu 
> said,
> any high calibre player would consider me a waste of ammo. And I damn well 
> know
> that I can never catch up to them, because they keep training at the same 
> speed
> as I do; even if their skill levels tick over a bit more slowly on some of 
> the
> really big ticket items.

Actually, most pirates in the game would blow up ANYONE , just for the sake 
of be able to post another kill on some
glorified killboard some place. Also, most players heavily into the PVP 
aspect of the game doesnt use implants to enhance their attributes. So the 
average joe in the game who use implants and dont put him/herself into much 
risk and harms way actually tend to
train skills faster. Of course if you start today you cant really catch up 
with a 3 year old player. But, you can specialize in skills and still 
compete. Why? Because skills can only be trained to level 5, and even though 
someone with more skillpoints than you got more skills, he/she can still 
only train a skill to level 5 just as you. Also the older players didnt have 
implants, advanced training skills etc to use/train when they started out 
the game. Majority of the players are mid-range players. There is a very few 
"old veteran players" compared to the mid-range.

> As for combatting a cup of piss, if you are in the 1 mil skillpoint range 
> you
> might get a nasty surprise. If you are in the 10 mil skillpoint range, 
> there is
> not even a point in my stepping up to the mat. So? You didn't get the 
> point of
> that argument the first time around, so I expect you won't this time 
> either.

It was a reply to your comment about being able to handle yourself in 0.4 as 
it seemd like you could take on the world,
which just didnt sound right.

You currently have 221 skills and 43,639,919 skill points, wanna try me? -)

In article <44b440db$0$17939$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net>, 
wsg@lways-nospam-.online.no says...
> 
> > I think I can tell the colour of YOUR lightsaber. I invited into my home a
> > woman from Denmark once who thought that 'chosing' the profession of 
> > Terrorist
> > made it an ok and honorable thing to be. She ended up stealing $100 and a 
> > pair
> > of boots from my house before running off. Friend of yours?
> 
> Calling me a terrorist? tsk tsk .. how petty of you.
> 

Erland, your reading skills are not good. 

You said more or less that it was stupid of me to complain about people whose 
"chosen profession" in the game was pirate and/or griefer. 
quote:
To call players who choosen a profession you dont necessary agree with for 
"antisocial pricks" says more about you than them to be honest.

I am questioning your attitude. I am saying that "chosing the Profession" 
griefer makes one out to be an antisocial prick, and I stand by that, thank you 
very much. I am drawing an analogy to real life, to a person who thought that 
"chosing the profession Terrorist" makes it an ok thing. NOT. Can you perceive 
the analogy?

At no point have I attempted to call you a terrorist. Read my post again, and 
please switch on your brain this time. Or upskill your English or something.

You were rather rude to me in your first post, do don't be surprised if I am a 
bit brash in my reply. But how the fuck you come to the conclusion that I 
called you a terrorist is utterly beyond me. The only thing I called is your 
judgemental ability - and I call it questionable. (now doubly so, and I shall 
refrain from making any further replies to your posts for the time being).

-Peter

-- 
=========================================
firstname dot lastname at gmail fullstop com

In message <MPG.1f1da07d2a4cd201989a25@news.individual.net>, Peter 
Huebner <no.one@this.address> writes
>In article <44b1b340$0$17948$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net>,
>wsg@lways-nospam-.online.no says...
>>
>> To call players who choosen a profession you dont necessary agree with for
>> "antisocial pricks" says more
>> about you than them to be honest.
>>
>
>I think I can tell the colour of YOUR lightsaber. I invited into my home a
>woman from Denmark once who thought that 'chosing' the profession of Terrorist
>made it an ok and honorable thing to be. She ended up stealing $100 and a pair
>of boots from my house before running off. Friend of yours?
>
Uh Peter, you SERIOUSLY need to remember that this is a game. Do you 
really not understand the difference between choosing a course of action 
in real life, and choosing a course of action in a game? It's a 
Role-Playing game - so I don't draw any conclusions at all about a 
person's real life behaviour from their in-game behaviour. Or do you 
think that everyone who ever chose a Chaotic Evil character is a 
psychopath in RL?
-- 
John Secker

In article <GvqXE4C9VttEFwxN@secker.demon.co.uk>, john@secker.demon.co.uk 
says...
> Uh Peter, you SERIOUSLY need to remember that this is a game. Do you 
> really not understand the difference between choosing a course of action 
> in real life, and choosing a course of action in a game? It's a 
> Role-Playing game - so I don't draw any conclusions at all about a 
> person's real life behaviour from their in-game behaviour. Or do you 
> think that everyone who ever chose a Chaotic Evil character is a 
> psychopath in RL?
> 

Um, hopefully not. But he will be a psychopath in the game, n'est ce pas?
So am I allowed to call a spade a digging implement? -- I mean, that's what my 
argument with Erland was all about, as I see it.

I felt, and feel, that gate campers who shoot down newbies are antisocial 
pricks. Punks. Prats. Wankers.  Erland, in his post, made out that since this 
was "their chosen profession" that made it ok, somehow, and that my calling 
them names was foolish and ignorant.  

I beg to differ. If somebody in the game behaves like a knight in shining 
armor, I am allowed to call them that, so why should I not call a prick a 
prick. 

As for real life, I see it this way: I very much doubt that a person who is a 
genuine 'lawful good' in Real Life would behave that way in game. By the same 
token, I realize full well that a lot of the in-game prats are probably kids 
(and pardon, at my age everybody under the age of 20 looks like a kid) who are 
gadding about. I very much doubt that an adult person who behaves that way in- 
game would be _entirely_ of mature and 'good' (whatever that may be) morality 
in life, but that's neither here or there.

Let me put it this way, John - I play games to *enjoy* myself. I can understand 
the kids gadding about; hell, I used to do the same. If they do that in a way 
that infringes on my enjoyment, then I can a) express my grievance if I want to 
and/or b) take myself some other place that I enjoy more. I am definitely NOT 
the kind of guy who would try to persuade the council to shut the park because 
the kid's boomboxes annoy me. I'll simply go some other place if it gets too 
much. But if I express my displeasure and some guy comes along and pisses on my 
shoes for doing so, he'll have to wear it if I piss right back. I do know the 
difference, believe me --- it's just a fscking game --- and I don't take it 
seriously enough to make a life or death issue of it. Being a bitter old person 
holds very little attraction for me so I am not about to start training up to 
it ;-)

-Peter

-- 
=========================================
firstname dot lastname at gmail fullstop com

> Um, hopefully not. But he will be a psychopath in the game, n'est ce pas?
> So am I allowed to call a spade a digging implement? -- I mean, that's 
> what my
> argument with Erland was all about, as I see it.

If you want to calla spade for a spade ingame, then the term is "pirates". 
Not psychopath's. If you use
such language towards other players ingame they can petition you for 
harrasment, and you can get
slapped hard by the GM's.

> I felt, and feel, that gate campers who shoot down newbies are antisocial
> pricks. Punks. Prats. Wankers.  Erland, in his post, made out that since 
> this
> was "their chosen profession" that made it ok, somehow, and that my 
> calling
> them names was foolish and ignorant.

By going into low sec, you fully accept the chance of something harmfull can 
happen to you. There is a pop up box
when you try jump into low sec that inform about this risk. Pirates doesn't 
have the time to look up someones
info card to see if they are so and so old. Shoot first, ask questions 
later. Its a PVP game, there is risks involved in go into
systems that isnt policed.

> As for real life, I see it this way: I very much doubt that a person who 
> is a
> genuine 'lawful good' in Real Life would behave that way in game. By the 
> same
> token, I realize full well that a lot of the in-game prats are probably 
> kids
> (and pardon, at my age everybody under the age of 20 looks like a kid) who 
> are
> gadding about. I very much doubt that an adult person who behaves that way 
> in-
> game would be _entirely_ of mature and 'good' (whatever that may be) 
> morality
> in life, but that's neither here or there.

Would it surprise you that some of the best PVP'ers (both pirates and non 
pirates) in game is girls?
EVE also got a higher grade of mature players. The illusion that ganking 
pirates is some teenagers with social
problems is a myth. Most of those I know in game is in their 30's with wife, 
children etc.

EVE is an mmorpg game with focus on PVP, where content is created by players 
for players. The game world
and the tools is provided by CCP. As with most RPG games, you as the player 
take on a role. It doesnt matter if you
worship satan and whatnot in real life, the role you take on in the game 
usally differs from your personaltiy in the real world.
The game gives you room to act out sides of yourself you normally wouldnt 
else.

Im 32 years old, in the real world Im sort of a easy going bloke, in EVE I 
can be both vicious and cruel if the situation calls for it, but normaly I 
play my character in a well balanced way. I dont murder anyone for the sake 
of fun, I dont kill a pirate if I can and have the chance just because 
he/she is a pirate. I can run someone out of their business if I feel their 
compeition start get a pain in the butt. I can find myself hire someone to 
take them out. I can find myself lend a help to someone asking for it and 
not ask for any in return, just because I feel like it there and then. There 
is no black or white, there is many shades of gray.


> Let me put it this way, John - I play games to *enjoy* myself. I can 
> understand
> the kids gadding about; hell, I used to do the same. If they do that in a 
> way
> that infringes on my enjoyment, then I can a) express my grievance if I 
> want to
> and/or b) take myself some other place that I enjoy more. I am definitely 
> NOT
> the kind of guy who would try to persuade the council to shut the park 
> because
> the kid's boomboxes annoy me. I'll simply go some other place if it gets 
> too
> much. But if I express my displeasure and some guy comes along and pisses 
> on my
> shoes for doing so, he'll have to wear it if I piss right back. I do know 
> the
> difference, believe me --- it's just a fscking game --- and I don't take 
> it
> seriously enough to make a life or death issue of it. Being a bitter old 
> person
> holds very little attraction for me so I am not about to start training up 
> to
> it ;-)

Yes, you play a game to enjoy yourself, so does the other 20k people or 
whatnot online playing with you at same time do. And what you find as 
enjoying might differ great from the other playrs. You have to respect the 
other players even you dont respect what they do, call them names, kids etc 
is just bad form. 

On Sun, 25 Jun 2006 17:22:53 +0800 the fame writer, Ceowulf wrote not
much to be useful on, "Eve... ",  
 
>Quit almost immediately, not much a space sim when nothing is actually 
>there.

	You are warping, when warping you are NOT in the same
time/space as you are when you are flying.  When out of warp, your
ship will slow down and go around such objects.
-- 
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it
by killing all those who opposed them. 

On Sat, 08 Jul 2006 19:01:06 GMT the fame writer, DocScorpio wrote not
much to be useful on, "Re: Eve...",  
 
>There also seems to be an issue with pk'ers preying on noobs in the tutorial 
>training areas (i.e., using ploys to get them flagged, so they can kill 
>them). 

	Don't see how, if you try to take someone else's kill, by
looting cargo container, you are warned about it, and have to click on
the "yes" button to do it.   If one is that lame, they deserve to be
blasted.
-- 
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it
by killing all those who opposed them. 

On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 02:22:46 +0200 the fame writer, Erland Andreassen
wrote not much to be useful on, "Re: Eve...",  
 
>Calling me a terrorist? tsk tsk .. how petty of you.

	Either learn to read, or learn to comprehend what you read, he
never said any such thing.
-- 
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it
by killing all those who opposed them. 

"Old Salt card carrying Curmudgeon" <old777salt@yahoo.com> wrote in message 
news:3nisf2tm25ttqi8dikin3sg3t5h2ln2nuf@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 08 Jul 2006 19:01:06 GMT the fame writer, DocScorpio wrote not
> much to be useful on, "Re: Eve...",
>
>>There also seems to be an issue with pk'ers preying on noobs in the 
>>tutorial
>>training areas (i.e., using ploys to get them flagged, so they can kill
>>them).
>
> Don't see how, if you try to take someone else's kill, by
> looting cargo container, you are warned about it, and have to click on
> the "yes" button to do it.   If one is that lame, they deserve to be
> blasted.
> -- 
> Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it
> by killing all those who opposed them.

It happened to me twice during the tutorials.  A rat that I was supposed to 
kill to get a key or learn how to shoot was killed by another player who 
then doesn't pick up the can, but just sits there....waiting.  I got the 
warning when I tried to open the can and thought something was 
wrong....after all, this is the tutorial and this is supposed to be MY can. 
However, I recalled that you should "trust no one in EVE," so I didn't bite. 
Just warped out and tried again later.  Another player might not have been 
so paranoid.  Granted, there's natural selection going on here.

Another trick involves two players setting up two gangs at war with 
one-another.  One player invites the noob to join his gang and the other 
player then kills the noob with no Corncord problems.

Frankly, I think all this is pretty funny now.  I don't know who'd want to 
waste their time killing noobs in the tutorials.  Natural born griefers, I 
guess.  After all, if you get killed during your first 30 minutes, you don't 
lose anything...and, as you point out, you learn a valuable lesson about not 
touching anyone's cans and not trusting every new "friend" you meet in-game. 

On Wed, 06 Sep 2006 20:51:03 GMT the fame writer, DocScorpio wrote not
much to be useful on, "Re: Eve...",  
 
>It happened to me twice during the tutorials.  A rat that I was supposed to 
>kill to get a key or learn how to shoot was killed by another player who 
>then doesn't pick up the can, but just sits there....waiting.  I got the 
>warning when I tried to open the can and thought something was 
>wrong....after all, this is the tutorial and this is supposed to be MY can. 

	You thought it should be your can, since you thought you got
the kill, which you didn't. Which is a easy mistake to make in the
heat of battle. It's hard to know who's shot was the one that took him
out.

	Now to look at it on the other side, I was doing the same
tutorial, and at the time I did NOT know that I removed cargo
containers off the list so I could NOT see them. So when I did the
kill, I could not find the container, someone else who I was talking
to went and took it. At that time her icon show her to be a pirate and
she was stealing my key. So I fired on her, she warp out in time. But
from my view she was doing me a wrong.

	I can't see anyone wasting there time doing this over and over
again and not moving on in the game.


>However, I recalled that you should "trust no one in EVE," so I didn't bite. 
>Just warped out and tried again later.  Another player might not have been 
>so paranoid.  Granted, there's natural selection going on here.
>
>Another trick involves two players setting up two gangs at war with 
>one-another.  One player invites the noob to join his gang and the other 
>player then kills the noob with no Corncord problems.

	Well that sucks, and show one to be a low life. But as you say
don't trust no one. Such as in real life. ;)

>
>Frankly, I think all this is pretty funny now.  I don't know who'd want to 
>waste their time killing noobs in the tutorials.  Natural born griefers, I 
>guess.  After all, if you get killed during your first 30 minutes, you don't 
>lose anything...and, as you point out, you learn a valuable lesson about not 
>touching anyone's cans and not trusting every new "friend" you meet in-game. 
>

	True.
-- 
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it
by killing all those who opposed them.