🚀 go-pugleaf

On Sun, 11 May 2014 06:32:01 -0400, DMP <nom...@nodomain.com> wrote:

>Interesting web page and compilations..brings back memories with the 
>votes for  #1 rpg of all time no surprise
>
>http://www.rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=9453

It is somewhat disturbing to me when I realize that I have played all
of those but one (Heroine's Quest). Many I gave up long before I got
to the end-boss and most of them I still have the disks for, though. A
good number I actually did finish.

Going through that list, I realize how I don't miss the old Bard's
Tale/Wizardry type RPGs at all. Even as other RPGs better embraced the
idea of role-playing, those continued to remain rooted in old-school,
mechanical combat where the only goal was to kill everything.
Meanwhile, the Ultimas and similar games were trying to introduce plot
and character to the genre. I remember how agonizingly dull I found
Eye of the Beholder 2 as I labored through its mazelike levels, and
how disappointed I was when the much-hyped Lands of Lore was just a
graphical rehash of that game.

On the other hand, seeing both Darklands and Anachronox brought back
fond memories. Darklands was unique in trying to present an immense
(and realistic) world with a non-linear quest. Anachronox was far less
innovative in gameplay but - especially after you got past the first
"world" - was a fun and imaginative sci-fi romp that sadly never got
its much deserved sequel.

On the plus side, at least none of the modern "action-RPGs" like
Diablo or Titan's Quest made the list. I still bristle when they are
considered role-playing games ;-)

Am 11.05.14 16:06, schrieb Spalls Hurgenson:
> On Sun, 11 May 2014 06:32:01 -0400, DMP <nom...@nodomain.com> wrote:
>
>> Interesting web page and compilations..brings back memories with the
>> votes for  #1 rpg of all time no surprise
>>
>> http://www.rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=9453
>
> It is somewhat disturbing to me when I realize that I have played all
> of those but one (Heroine's Quest). Many I gave up long before I got
> to the end-boss and most of them I still have the disks for, though. A
> good number I actually did finish.
>
> Going through that list, I realize how I don't miss the old Bard's
> Tale/Wizardry type RPGs at all. Even as other RPGs better embraced the
> idea of role-playing, those continued to remain rooted in old-school,
> mechanical combat where the only goal was to kill everything.
> Meanwhile, the Ultimas and similar games were trying to introduce plot
> and character to the genre. I remember how agonizingly dull I found
> Eye of the Beholder 2 as I labored through its mazelike levels, and
> how disappointed I was when the much-hyped Lands of Lore was just a
> graphical rehash of that game.
>
> On the other hand, seeing both Darklands and Anachronox brought back
> fond memories. Darklands was unique in trying to present an immense
> (and realistic) world with a non-linear quest. Anachronox was far less
> innovative in gameplay but - especially after you got past the first
> "world" - was a fun and imaginative sci-fi romp that sadly never got
> its much deserved sequel.
>
> On the plus side, at least none of the modern "action-RPGs" like
> Diablo or Titan's Quest made the list. I still bristle when they are
> considered role-playing games ;-)
>
I am glad the Wizardries and Ultimas made it to the list as well as 
Gothic 1 (although I consider Gothic 2 better than 1) and Risen and Arx 
Fatalis. A really good list btw.

Spalls Hurgenson  <spallsh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>It is somewhat disturbing to me when I realize that I have played all
>of those but one (Heroine's Quest). Many I gave up long before I got
>to the end-boss and most of them I still have the disks for, though. A
>good number I actually did finish.

By my count, of the 72(!) games listed in the top "70":

        Never even heard of:    2
        Don't own:              18
        Owned but unplayed:     13
        Played but unfinished:  14
        Finished:               25

That's actually more finished games than I thought there'd be.  If game
requires me to mindlessly grind at the end to finish I usually declare
mission accomplished and move on to the next game.

>Going through that list, I realize how I don't miss the old Bard's
>Tale/Wizardry type RPGs at all. Even as other RPGs better embraced the
>idea of role-playing, those continued to remain rooted in old-school,
>mechanical combat where the only goal was to kill everything.
>Meanwhile, the Ultimas and similar games were trying to introduce plot
>and character to the genre. I remember how agonizingly dull I found
>Eye of the Beholder 2 as I labored through its mazelike levels, and
>how disappointed I was when the much-hyped Lands of Lore was just a
>graphical rehash of that game.

I loved those games.  The early Wizardry games were too hard core for me,
I enjoyed Bard's Tale 1 and 2.  Eye of the Beholder 1 and 2 and Lands of
Lore 1 were amazing evolutions (and also more accessable) of evolutions
of Dungeon Master, a genre that's still alive to today in the form of
games like Legend of Grimrock and Etrian Odyssey IV.

On the other hand I don't really like the direction the Ultimas went after
Ultima V.  Sure they upped the story, but they completely dumbed down game
play with Ultima VI and VII.  The graphics looked prettier but the more
realisitc one-scale-fits-all approach also made Britannia seem smaller.
It felt like you're were playing in a theme park, not an entire world.

Mind you while the list has brought back found memories it hasn't made
me too eager to play any of these game again.  Partly because I don't
have as much tolerance for clunky UIs some of these games had, but mostly
because I've got a big backlog of games I haven't even touched yet.

>On the plus side, at least none of the modern "action-RPGs" like
>Diablo or Titan's Quest made the list. I still bristle when they are
>considered role-playing games ;-)

Eh... it really discredits the entire list by excluding these games.
Diablo is more an RPG than Deus Ex, even though I think Deus Ex is the
better game.  Star Control 2 and Mount and Blade are also great games,
but calling the former an RPG is a big stretch and the later absurd.
If games like these can make the list, than Diablo and all of its clones
should be under consideration as well.

Other notable ommissions are the Bard's Tale and Eye of the Beholder
games you mentioned earlier, modern indie games like Recettear, Legend of
Grimrock and Dungeons of Dredmor, and any of the MMORPGs.  I wouldn't
count it as an RPG, but given all the other first-person shooters with
RPG elements on the list it's a big surprise not to see either of the
Borderlands games in the list.  

					Ross Ridge

-- 
 l/  //	  Ross Ridge -- The Great HTMU
[oo][oo]  rri...@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
-()-/()/  http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca/~rridge/ 
 db  //	  

In article <lkoh6d$c5n$1...@rumours.uwaterloo.ca>, 
rri...@csclub.uwaterloo.ca says...

> Other notable ommissions are the Bard's Tale and Eye of the Beholder
> games you mentioned earlier, modern indie games like Recettear, Legend of
> Grimrock and Dungeons of Dredmor, and any of the MMORPGs.  I wouldn't
> count it as an RPG, but given all the other first-person shooters with
> RPG elements on the list it's a big surprise not to see either of the
> Borderlands games in the list.  

Nice nostalgia-fest.  I was pleased to see some of my favourites near 
the top, despite their unaccountable love for the Infinity Engine (for 
me the only tolerable IE game was PS:T).

They didn't include Bards Tale, but they had a lot of entries from the 
superior Wizardry and Might and Magic series.  I do think EOB or EOB2 
should have been in there, but only Dungeon Master made the grade from 
that genre.  If you must choose just one, it has to be DM I guess. 

Ah well, comparisons are invidious.  It's a nice list, anyway.

- Gerry Quinn

On 5/11/2014 2:57 PM, Ross Ridge wrote:
> Spalls Hurgenson  <spallsh...@gmail.com> wrote:
 >
>> On the plus side, at least none of the modern "action-RPGs" like
>> Diablo or Titan's Quest made the list. I still bristle when they are
>> considered role-playing games ;-)
>
> Eh... it really discredits the entire list by excluding these games.
> Diablo is more an RPG than Deus Ex, even though I think Deus Ex is the
> better game.  Star Control 2 and Mount and Blade are also great games,
> but calling the former an RPG is a big stretch and the later absurd.
> If games like these can make the list, than Diablo and all of its clones
> should be under consideration as well.

Not to mention the fact they included Divine Divinity, which is 
obviously a Diablo clone.

Very strange criteria indeed.

DMP <nom...@nodomain.com> writes:

> Interesting web page and compilations..brings back memories with the
> votes for  #1 rpg of all time no surprise
>
> http://www.rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=9453

Let's see, I count nine games I've played in a serious way: 
- Fallout (well, semi-serious, didn't continue after the water chip quest)
- Fallout: New Vegas
- Deus Ex
- KOTOR II
- System Shock 2
- KOTOR
- Deus Ex: HR
- Mass Effect
- Star Control II

Another five games played a little but didn't really get into:
- Planescape: Torment
- Fallout 2
- Wasteland
- Dungeon Master (the Java version)
- System Shock

Hmm, 19 games out of 72 listed is a little below 20%... Maybe five games
I've never even heard of. I guess I'm not a big fan of the genre.

MetalGuru  <inv...@chainmail.com> wrote:
>Not to mention the fact they included Divine Divinity, which is 
>obviously a Diablo clone.

It got compared to Ultima VII a fair bit when it was released and I
expect that alone got it on the list.  It's more like Diablo, but I
imagine they forgot about that part.

					Ross Ridge

-- 
 l/  //	  Ross Ridge -- The Great HTMU
[oo][oo]  rri...@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
-()-/()/  http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca/~rridge/ 
 db  //	  

>"Anssi Saari"  wrote in message news:vg3d2fgesa4.fsf@coffee.modeemi.fi...
>
>DMP <nom...@nodomain.com> writes:
>
>> Interesting web page and compilations..brings back memories with the
>> votes for  #1 rpg of all time no surprise
>>
>> http://www.rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=9453
>
>Let's see, I count nine games I've played in a serious way:
>- Fallout (well, semi-serious, didn't continue after the water chip quest)
>- Fallout: New Vegas
>- Deus Ex
>- KOTOR II
>- System Shock 2
>- KOTOR
>- Deus Ex: HR
>- Mass Effect
>- Star Control II
>
>Another five games played a little but didn't really get into:
>- Planescape: Torment
>- Fallout 2
>- Wasteland
>- Dungeon Master (the Java version)
>- System Shock
>
>Hmm, 19 games out of 72 listed is a little below 20%... Maybe five games
>I've never even heard of. I guess I'm not a big fan of the genre.

I come up with 5 that I have finished, since I finish few games, that is a 
lot.  14 I have played a lot and got close but never finished, something 
else came along.  11, I played somewhat and never continued for various 
reasons.  8, I never remember hearing about, but I could have forgot.  The 
rest I never played, but I own a lot of them, they are just waiting to be 
tried out.

Chuck

Am 14.05.14 11:10, schrieb Ross Ridge:
> MetalGuru  <inv...@chainmail.com> wrote:
>> Not to mention the fact they included Divine Divinity, which is
>> obviously a Diablo clone.
>
> It got compared to Ultima VII a fair bit when it was released and I
> expect that alone got it on the list.  It's more like Diablo, but I
> imagine they forgot about that part.
>
> 					Ross Ridge
>
Yes indeed, only the beginning was more like Ultima 7, then it suddenly 
became a diablo clone. (According to the devs this was wanted by the 
publisher who wanted to jump onto the Diablo bandwagon)
I have higher hopes for Divinity Original Sin to be more Ultimaish 
though, due to the fact that Lariam Studios has their hands free to
do the game they want to do.

Werner Punz  <we...@gmx.at> wrote:
>Yes indeed, only the beginning was more like Ultima 7, then it suddenly 
>became a diablo clone. (According to the devs this was wanted by the 
>publisher who wanted to jump onto the Diablo bandwagon)
>I have higher hopes for Divinity Original Sin to be more Ultimaish 
>though, due to the fact that Lariam Studios has their hands free to
>do the game they want to do.

I actually liked the original Divine Divinity.  It wasn't perfect, but
it wasn't just a mindless Diablo-clone.  It had more varied abilities
and much more open world.  A new game like that would great.

On the other hand Ultima VII doesn't really hold up well.  It may have
been fairly ground breaking at the time, but an RPG with as deep a
story is given today.  I really hope Lairam Studios is setting their
sights higher.

					Ross Ridge

-- 
 l/  //	  Ross Ridge -- The Great HTMU
[oo][oo]  rri...@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
-()-/()/  http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca/~rridge/ 
 db  //	  

Am 15.05.14 20:35, schrieb Ross Ridge:
> Werner Punz  <we...@gmx.at> wrote:
>> Yes indeed, only the beginning was more like Ultima 7, then it suddenly
>> became a diablo clone. (According to the devs this was wanted by the
>> publisher who wanted to jump onto the Diablo bandwagon)
>> I have higher hopes for Divinity Original Sin to be more Ultimaish
>> though, due to the fact that Lariam Studios has their hands free to
>> do the game they want to do.
>
> I actually liked the original Divine Divinity.  It wasn't perfect, but
> it wasn't just a mindless Diablo-clone.  It had more varied abilities
> and much more open world.  A new game like that would great.
>
> On the other hand Ultima VII doesn't really hold up well.  It may have
> been fairly ground breaking at the time, but an RPG with as deep a
> story is given today.  I really hope Lairam Studios is setting their
> sights higher.
>
Actually I still regard U7 as one of the best RPGs ever made, the only 
thing they could have done
better at that time was the combat, which was non existent (hit c and 
watch the computer doing the fight)

On 5/15/2014 2:52 PM, Werner Punz wrote:
> Am 15.05.14 20:35, schrieb Ross Ridge:
>> Werner Punz  <we...@gmx.at> wrote:
>>> Yes indeed, only the beginning was more like Ultima 7, then it suddenly
>>> became a diablo clone. (According to the devs this was wanted by the
>>> publisher who wanted to jump onto the Diablo bandwagon)
>>> I have higher hopes for Divinity Original Sin to be more Ultimaish
>>> though, due to the fact that Lariam Studios has their hands free to
>>> do the game they want to do.
>>
>> I actually liked the original Divine Divinity.  It wasn't perfect, but
>> it wasn't just a mindless Diablo-clone.  It had more varied abilities
>> and much more open world.  A new game like that would great.
>>
>> On the other hand Ultima VII doesn't really hold up well.  It may have
>> been fairly ground breaking at the time, but an RPG with as deep a
>> story is given today.  I really hope Lairam Studios is setting their
>> sights higher.
>>
> Actually I still regard U7 as one of the best RPGs ever made, the only
> thing they could have done
> better at that time was the combat, which was non existent (hit c and
> watch the computer doing the fight)

There's something about that perspective that doesn't agree with my 
brain - it's not really isometric, it looks similar to that but the 
angle of vision is different. I think it's called oblique or something. 
DD made it even worse because of the horrid color palette - everything 
looks brown, green and grey and I couldn't tell what the f was what.

Aside from that I don't see much in common between the two games, even 
though I did not finished either one. I liked the sequel better, 
Divinity 2, a very good game that no one played due to a poorly timed 
release - the first Dragon Age came out within a very short time IIRC.

Am 15.05.14 23:06, schrieb MetalGuru:

> There's something about that perspective that doesn't agree with my
> brain - it's not really isometric, it looks similar to that but the
> angle of vision is different. I think it's called oblique or something.
> DD made it even worse because of the horrid color palette - everything
> looks brown, green and grey and I couldn't tell what the f was what.
>
> Aside from that I don't see much in common between the two games, even
> though I did not finished either one. I liked the sequel better,
> Divinity 2, a very good game that no one played due to a poorly timed
> release - the first Dragon Age came out within a very short time IIRC.
>
>
Actually I have just started with the beta of Divinity Original Sin and 
so far I like it a lot. It definitely has nothing to do with Divine 
Divinity, it feels more like an Ultima with turn based combat and a lot 
of environmental interaction.

On 5/16/2014 4:45 PM, Werner Punz wrote:
> Am 15.05.14 23:06, schrieb MetalGuru:
>
>> There's something about that perspective that doesn't agree with my
>> brain - it's not really isometric, it looks similar to that but the
>> angle of vision is different. I think it's called oblique or something.
>> DD made it even worse because of the horrid color palette - everything
>> looks brown, green and grey and I couldn't tell what the f was what.
>>
>> Aside from that I don't see much in common between the two games, even
>> though I did not finished either one. I liked the sequel better,
>> Divinity 2, a very good game that no one played due to a poorly timed
>> release - the first Dragon Age came out within a very short time IIRC.
>>
> Actually I have just started with the beta of Divinity Original Sin and
> so far I like it a lot. It definitely has nothing to do with Divine
> Divinity, it feels more like an Ultima with turn based combat and a lot
> of environmental interaction.

Party with turn based combat, that's interesting - beginning to sound a 
bit like Baldur's Gate which is a very good thing good in my book.

Having to pay $40 to beta test a game however is just not gonna happen - 
not now, not ever. I'm your typical patient gamer, always a few months 
sometimes years behind the curve. So I sit and wait, it'll be $4.99 on 
steam before the end of the year :)

Ditto for the new Jagged Alliance Flashback - no way, no how, no deal.

Am 18.05.14 20:46, schrieb MetalGuru:
> On 5/16/2014 4:45 PM, Werner Punz wrote:
>> Am 15.05.14 23:06, schrieb MetalGuru:
>>
>>> There's something about that perspective that doesn't agree with my
>>> brain - it's not really isometric, it looks similar to that but the
>>> angle of vision is different. I think it's called oblique or something.
>>> DD made it even worse because of the horrid color palette - everything
>>> looks brown, green and grey and I couldn't tell what the f was what.
>>>
>>> Aside from that I don't see much in common between the two games, even
>>> though I did not finished either one. I liked the sequel better,
>>> Divinity 2, a very good game that no one played due to a poorly timed
>>> release - the first Dragon Age came out within a very short time IIRC.
>>>
>> Actually I have just started with the beta of Divinity Original Sin and
>> so far I like it a lot. It definitely has nothing to do with Divine
>> Divinity, it feels more like an Ultima with turn based combat and a lot
>> of environmental interaction.
>
> Party with turn based combat, that's interesting - beginning to sound a
> bit like Baldur's Gate which is a very good thing good in my book.
>
> Having to pay $40 to beta test a game however is just not gonna happen -
> not now, not ever. I'm your typical patient gamer, always a few months
> sometimes years behind the curve. So I sit and wait, it'll be $4.99 on
> steam before the end of the year :)
>
> Ditto for the new Jagged Alliance Flashback - no way, no how, no deal.
>
>
Actually Divinity Original Sin will be released on the 20th of June, I 
am 5 hours into the game so far, and it is very good, my positive early 
impression still stands. Anyway I gotta stop playing now, because since 
it is beta there is a chance that the saves still are wiped, and I do 
not want to replay to much of the game again.

On Sun, 11 May 2014 10:06:42 -0400, Spalls Hurgenson
<spallsh...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On the plus side, at least none of the modern "action-RPGs" like
>Diablo or Titan's Quest made the list. I still bristle when they are
>considered role-playing games ;-)

With such games as System Shock and Star Control 2 on that list,
ignoring Diablo 2 because it is an 'action' rpg is just stupid. It is
more RPG then either of them.

On Tue, 20 May 2014 05:10:56 +0400, Mike S. <Mik...@nowhere.com> wrote:

> With such games as System Shock and Star Control 2 on that list,
> ignoring Diablo 2 because it is an 'action' rpg is just stupid. It is
> more RPG then either of them.

that site became a place of utter bigotry. (I used to like rpgcodex until last few years.)

-- 
Andrew Rybenkov

Am 18.05.14 23:49, schrieb Werner Punz:
> Am 18.05.14 20:46, schrieb MetalGuru:
>> On 5/16/2014 4:45 PM, Werner Punz wrote:
>>> Am 15.05.14 23:06, schrieb MetalGuru:
>>>
>>>> There's something about that perspective that doesn't agree with my
>>>> brain - it's not really isometric, it looks similar to that but the
>>>> angle of vision is different. I think it's called oblique or something.
>>>> DD made it even worse because of the horrid color palette - everything
>>>> looks brown, green and grey and I couldn't tell what the f was what.
>>>>
>>>> Aside from that I don't see much in common between the two games, even
>>>> though I did not finished either one. I liked the sequel better,
>>>> Divinity 2, a very good game that no one played due to a poorly timed
>>>> release - the first Dragon Age came out within a very short time IIRC.
>>>>
>>> Actually I have just started with the beta of Divinity Original Sin and
>>> so far I like it a lot. It definitely has nothing to do with Divine
>>> Divinity, it feels more like an Ultima with turn based combat and a lot
>>> of environmental interaction.
>>
>> Party with turn based combat, that's interesting - beginning to sound a
>> bit like Baldur's Gate which is a very good thing good in my book.
>>
>> Having to pay $40 to beta test a game however is just not gonna happen -
>> not now, not ever. I'm your typical patient gamer, always a few months
>> sometimes years behind the curve. So I sit and wait, it'll be $4.99 on
>> steam before the end of the year :)
>>
>> Ditto for the new Jagged Alliance Flashback - no way, no how, no deal.
>>
>>
> Actually Divinity Original Sin will be released on the 20th of June, I
> am 5 hours into the game so far, and it is very good, my positive early
> impression still stands. Anyway I gotta stop playing now, because since
> it is beta there is a chance that the saves still are wiped, and I do
> not want to replay to much of the game again.
>
>
>
Ok I have played along further despite the possibility that my saves can 
be wiped in a beta upgrade (currently about 8-10 hours into the game). I 
simply could not stop, First of all this game is just like the old RPGs 
it does not hold hands, it instantly opens to areas which you can die 
for sure at lower levels (1-5). Secondly the environmental interaction 
and crafting is amazing, just like in the old Ultimas, yes even baking 
bread is possible, although i have yet to figure out how, so far I made 
cheese dough though.

Thirdly the playtime from what I could gather is between 50-100 hours 
for the final game (the current preview version is about 20 hours with 
one map, the final game has four maps and one huge dungeon)
The game definitely does not put you on rails and even overloads you 
with quests in the beginning you cannot do before level 5.
Combat, due to the turn based nature and due to the fact that 
environmental interaction plays also a part in combat  the combat is 
very tactical (for instance if you fire against an oil barrel during the 
fight, you will get an area with fire which you and your enemies can 
take damage if you are in, if you ignite a rain spell the fire is 
extinquished etc...)
Also there is no respawn of monsters, once you have defeated them you 
are done. I personally like this, I hate respawns.

Levelling up, this is somewhat different to many other rpgs, because the 
entire system is classless, you can level up any way you want, but for 
learning new spells or moves, you have to buy rather expensive guides in 
conjunction with the levelling up or find those.

Puzzles, there are some puzzles which are mostly environmentally 
related, like for instance triggering traps with environmental 
interaction before your characters step onto them, finding keys or 
opening doors by force or lockpicking etc...


To sum it up, I have not had such a good time with a game for a long 
time. (I simply love world simulating RPGs ala Ultima 7 and Gothic) I 
cannot wait for the June 20th release.

On Wed, 21 May 2014 13:19:59 +0400, Werner Punz <we...@gmx.at> wrote:

> because the entire system is classless, you can level up any way you want, but for learning new spells or moves, you have to buy rather expensive guides in conjunction with the levelling up or find those.

Soulbringer?

-- 
Andrew Rybenkov

>"Werner Punz"  wrote in message news:llhr3v$fbe$1@dont-email.me... >
>Ok I have played along further despite the possibility that my saves can 
>be wiped in a beta upgrade (currently about 8-10 hours into the game). I 
>simply could not stop, First of all this game is just like the old RPGs 
>it does not hold hands, it instantly opens to areas which you can die 
>for sure at lower levels (1-5). Secondly the environmental interaction 
>and crafting is amazing, just like in the old Ultimas, yes even baking 
>bread is possible, although i have yet to figure out how, so far I made 
>cheese dough though.
>
>Thirdly the playtime from what I could gather is between 50-100 hours 
.for the final game (the current preview version is about 20 hours with 
>one map, the final game has four maps and one huge dungeon)
>The game definitely does not put you on rails and even overloads you 
>with quests in the beginning you cannot do before level 5.
>Combat, due to the turn based nature and due to the fact that 
>environmental interaction plays also a part in combat  the combat is 
>very tactical (for instance if you fire against an oil barrel during the 
>fight, you will get an area with fire which you and your enemies can 
>take damage if you are in, if you ignite a rain spell the fire is 
>extinquished etc...)
>Also there is no respawn of monsters, once you have defeated them you 
>are done. I personally like this, I hate respawns.
>
>Levelling up, this is somewhat different to many other rpgs, because the 
>entire system is classless, you can level up any way you want, but for 
>learning new spells or moves, you have to buy rather expensive guides in 
>conjunction with the levelling up or find those.
>
>Puzzles, there are some puzzles which are mostly environmentally 
>related, like for instance triggering traps with environmental 
>>interaction before your characters step onto them, finding keys or 
opening doors by force or lockpicking etc...
>
>
>To sum it up, I have not had such a good time with a game for a long 
>time. (I simply love world simulating RPGs ala Ultima 7 and Gothic) I 
>cannot wait for the June 20th release.

Sounds like a 'must buy' for me.

Chuck