🚀 go-pugleaf

Simon Nejmann wrote:
> On 29 Jul 2004 09:57:53 -0700, laszlo_...@freemail.hu wrote:
>
> >Simon Nejmann wrote:
> >> The Paladin levels bring several things to the table; hit points,
> >> weapon proficiencies, armor + shield proficiencies, saving throws
> >+cha
> >> mod, Lay on Hands and immunity to disease. At second level they
get
> >> Smite Evil and Aura of Courage.
> >
> >No offense, but for a powergamer, you sure seem to miss the point of
a
> >Paladin/Sorcerer.
> >
> >The #1 advantage for taking a level of Paladin is none of the things
> >you mentioned. NONE of them. The #1 advantage is simply...
> >
> >getting the Holy Avenger quest.
>
> Ok, the Holy Avenger is a great weapon (arguably the best in the
> game), but why is it soo good for the Sorceror?
>
> It gives spell resistance and allows unlimited castings of dispel
> magic - yup, that is cool. But wouldn't it be better in the hands of
> some fighter type that actually could use it as a weapon?

No. The fact that it's one-handed makes it all but useless for a
fighter-type in the bastardized 3.0 rules of IWD (two-weapon fighting
sucks, shields suck).

It's awesome for a spellcaster because spellcasters are the most
critical cogs in your team, and the most fragile. They _need_ the spell
resistance. Also, it allows the neat trick where you put your
Stoneskinned mage in the middle of an enemy group, then have him
Fireball himself.

> Sure if the Sorc is the only Paladin in the party, but IMHO it would
> be better in the hands of just about any other type of Pally - and
> Yenkaz, the original questioner, just happened to want a full pally
in
> his party - irrelevant here perhaps, but I guess it was on my mind).

That's true. If you have a pure paladin in your party, what I said
isn't really valid. But a pure paladin isn't a good idea
(powergaming-wise), exactly for the reasons you mentioned :)

> >Also, your other "powergaming" advice is somewhat competent, but
it's
> >all been done before, much better than what you suggest.
> >
> >http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/IWD2/icewind_dale_ii_jupp.zip
> >
> >Read. Marvel. Abase yourself before the powergaming genius of Jukka.
>
> Read, marveled and abased myself.
>
> Though I must add, I merely called myself a powergamer, I never
> proclaimed to be the best - not even by a longshot. So my abasement
> wasn't all that painfull. :)

Okay, okay. Sorry for being abrasive. :)

> Hmm, I noticed that he has a Drow Paladin(1)/Sorceror(29) as an
> optional character in his melee party, that is supposed to use the
> Holy Avenger both for its spell resistance and in order to have
> something to do when all enemies are stunned.
> But notice also that this character has been designed to use it; 18
> str, 5 dex and 9 wis - he is banking on the extra saves from the
> Paladin level to save him from his bad saves, while using the extra
> points to make it worthwhile to swing. It may be good powergaming,
but
> it's certainly not something I would recommend for a newbie/first go
> through the game.

Possibly... that's what I did with my solo-Sorcerer, though. Str was
16. It's an effective strategy.

> Also Jukka's goal is to get super powerfull characters at the end of
> HOF, this sometimes leaves them weak throughout the beginning of (and
> sometimes even far into) normal mode - again not for the beginner.

Well... I haven't tried any of his optimized builds, but they look OK
to me, even in the mid-game.

> Ps. In his second party the Holy Avenger goes to a Deep Gnome
Rogue(2)
> / Monk of the Old Order(1) / Sorceror(1) / Fighter(2) / Paladin(1) /
> Ranger(2) / Cleric of Helm(1) / Illusionist(20) over a Aasimar
> Paladin(1) / Sorceror(29).

Yep. Never said my Drow Paladin/Sorcerer was ideal, but then, I never
liked using other people's powergaming advice. I like to do my best and
see how far I get with it.

Incidentally, the Sorceror(1) Illusionist(20) thing is bug
exploitation; in IWD2, a single level in Sorcerer means you can cast
spells from prohibited schools as a wizard. I'm not saying I didn't
exploit similar gameplay quirks, but I didn't want to exploit that one
specifically.

I was a little bit of a jerk, by the way; please accept my apology on
that count.

Laszlo