🚀 go-pugleaf

"Isaac" <IsaacG...@gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:1149142097.847182.196300@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> My friends and I are some  of the first players of Starcraft and we
> agree  that Terran got shorthanded. You could argue at "peak of
> power" all races are equal. In fact Zerg might have the upper hand
> since they have a new strong air and ground unit AND still use
> defilers. But at the start of a regular match (4workers 1bulding and
> 50min in the bank) you might say, in the time it takes to become
> dangerous, Terran is weak. 1 zergling can kill 2 marines and at the

Which is why Terrans can put their marines in a bunker. Terran
defense does not exist without bunkers.

> time it takes to make that first fighter, zerg already has 6.  Zealots
> are even worse! In the time it takes to produce eight (assuming you
> know where the enimey's camped) you can tear a few bunkers apart and
> then send a second wave to finish him/her off. Seige tanks are great

A few bunkers will tear up those Zealots. It's all in the positioning.
Ofcourse, also have some SCV's handy for continuous repairs. :D

> but one lurker can cripple your worker line. Dark templar are crap if
> you have detectors but how hard is it to shoot down a science facility?

A terran will also have turrets all over his base. Turret = detector.
Turret + bunker = Dead lurker. And how do you shoot "down"
a science facility? Do you mean a vessel? You know, the fast
moving one that can shield, irradiate and emp.

> Ever play Warcraft3? A simple feature in that game could tip the
> balance. If you play against a computer who's terran and you're
> terran or protoss you might hate how fast a ghost can lock down your
> stuff. Warcraft 3 has an "auto cast" feature. Just right click on a
> "spell icon" and the unit will cast the spell automatically.
> Imagine 20 ghosts against... well... anything but infantry or zerg.

A powerful "spell" such as lockdown would never get an autocast.
You could very compare it to Cyclone, which doesn't have an
autocast either. 

IN TEH PALECE KNOWEN AS alt.games.starcraft, TEH FAGGORTER "Isaac"
<IsaacG...@gmail.com> DUMPED HIS GHEYE SHIET ON MY COMPUTAR
SCREEN!!!!:
>My friends and I are some  of the first players of Starcraft and we
>agree  that Terran got shorthanded. You could argue at "peak of
>power" all races are equal. In fact Zerg might have the upper hand
>since they have a new strong air and ground unit AND still use
>defilers. But at the start of a regular match (4workers 1bulding and
>50min in the bank) you might say, in the time it takes to become
>dangerous, Terran is weak. 1 zergling can kill 2 marines and at the
>time it takes to make that first fighter, zerg already has 6.

Just the same you could say "At the start of the match, Protoss are
weak. 2 Marines and 6 SCVs will easily kill a single zealot + whatever
probes the protoss has". 
There is always a time in the game when some race will have an
advantage over another due to a specific unit mixup, doesn't mean that
it's unbeatable or inbalanced. Just as you complain about 6 lings, a
Zerg player could be equally justified to complain about early M&M+F
cheese.

Just use your head a bit. If you have a choke, you can block it with
1-2 SCVs and place a few marines behind there, and no 6-ling cheese
will be able to harm you. If you don't, just rally the marines to the
mineral line (in case you don't want to use a bunker), and use your
SCVs for help when the lings come. 60 HP is a lot of good shield for
marines, and lings aren't exactly very durable units, so SCVs do hurt
them a good deal already.

>Zealots
>are even worse! In the time it takes to produce eight (assuming you
>know where the enimey's camped) you can tear a few bunkers apart and
>then send a second wave to finish him/her off. 

Again, if there's a choke, no problems, just do a wallin build and
have 2-3 marines on standby behind it. 
If it's an open map (or otherwise prone to easy rushes, like Blood
Bath), sandwich a bunker between buildings so that it can properly
cover your base instead.

Then it's just gogo factory.

>Seige tanks are great
>but one lurker can cripple your worker line. 

So use that comsat and those turrets of yours?

1 tank=oh noes no slow lurkar drop for zurg


>Dark templar are crap if
>you have detectors but how hard is it to shoot down a science facility?
>
I don't know, how easy do you feel it is to shoot something down
covered by an mob of angry Goliaths, Vultures, Tanks, and turrets?

>Ever play Warcraft3? A simple feature in that game could tip the
>balance. If you play against a computer who's terran and you're
>terran or protoss you might hate how fast a ghost can lock down your
>stuff. Warcraft 3 has an "auto cast" feature. Just right click on a
>"spell icon" and the unit will cast the spell automatically.
>Imagine 20 ghosts against... well... anything but infantry or zerg.

It'd be neat, but it'd also require for all the current special
feature attributes to go through a serious re-design, lest it totally
screw with the game balance. 

>But what's the strongest most versatile attack you should start with?
>Infantry w/ firebats and medics? That's worked for me better than
>I'd thought. Tank, valkyrie, science facility combo?

Generally Heavy infantry Vs Zerg, while heavy Factory crap for Toss
and Terran. Fuck Valkyries, they're too expensive and specialized to
be worth investing in 98% of all cases.

With zerg just go hard with the marines and medics (and by god don't
forget the upgrades), add tanks in there in the same proportion as he
uses lurkers himself. SVs and irradiate are a long-term goal,
especially if he goes the mutaling route where you can expect
guardians at some point.

For toss, if you can wallin, it's straight double factory for you,
else wise I guess you need to fudge around with M&Ms before that. I
usually go with 1 tank(to prevent goons from breaking wallin) then 4
vultures and get the mine upgrade first. Place a few a mines at your
choke, run to theirs, do the same, try and see if he's stupid enough
to let you raid his peon line with vultures. Cover up for whatever
tech he goes for - In case of templar, place turrets at appropriate
locations, if it's Robo, make sure you are prepared to handle drops
and shuttle bombs. 
If he has  zeals but no goons around laugh at him and kill them with
hit & runs. Get siege, which after expo to natural, get droships, find
his gay expansion attempt(s) and kill them with Tank & vulture drops.
Repeat. Wait, build up. Expand once more, start pushing out from your
little corner. Make sure to not be caught off-guard by nasty carrier
tech hidden in a wazoo corner somewhere. Start the steamroller. Win
the game (hopefully).

Something like that, I guess;
http://www.zomgwtf.net//VidThingys/SC/BestOf5/Muey-T_Vs_Bod-P_BestOf5_Game5-LostTemple%5bITS_TEH_FINBAL_SHOEDOWNER%5d.avi
(notice how it's always much easier to talk about things? =P)

Oh, and don't forget upgrades. Especially if you see him going
carrier.



For the record, I'll sign to play against you as terran, and you can
do your worst in terms of cheesing - I'm quite confident I'll still be
able to mop the floor with you while using them ;-P

That being said, Terran is my worst race. Not really because of all
the micro (well, it doesn't exactly help either, but...) but because
I've never quite figured out how to do the gay mad expansion game with
them without you already having the map under control. Naturals are
always easy to grab, and I guess Islands too as long as you get away
with setting them up, but with other locations I find myself always
hampered down by the vulnerability of mobile terran. 

Placing a crapload of units to defend your expo is generally a bad
idea since it leaves you wide-open elsewhere and prevents you from
being offensive, but then in the case that your expansion _does_ come
under attack, the you'll never end up getting there in time to save
anything since getting your army there & setting it up and deploying
it takes roughly 3 days, 4 hours and 27 minutes, by which time A) your
expansion is already dead B) Your asstastically weak-while-moving army
gets wisely intercepted/delayed by an enemy pack of goons hovering the
middle of the map.

 Basically, if I only manage to stay even and don't get some sort of
upper hand over my enemy in the first 15-20 minutes, chances are very
high I won't be winning the game when up against someone with half a
clue.

Isaac wrote:
> My friends and I are some  of the first players of Starcraft and we
> agree  that Terran got shorthanded. You could argue at "peak of
> power" all races are equal. In fact Zerg might have the upper hand
> since they have a new strong air and ground unit AND still use
> defilers. But at the start of a regular match (4workers 1bulding and
> 50min in the bank) you might say, in the time it takes to become
> dangerous, Terran is weak. 1 zergling can kill 2 marines and at the
> time it takes to make that first fighter, zerg already has 6.  Zealots
> are even worse! In the time it takes to produce eight (assuming you
> know where the enimey's camped) you can tear a few bunkers apart and
> then send a second wave to finish him/her off. Seige tanks are great
> but one lurker can cripple your worker line. Dark templar are crap if
> you have detectors but how hard is it to shoot down a science facility?
> 
If you take "peak of power" terran battle cruisers, Science vessels (for
EMP shockwave) and Lockdown, Protoss are dead withing a short space of
time (this is assuming an expert at micromanagement). The best zerg can
do is scourge them, not to mention the devourers and guardians are
expensive. Terran is all about micromanagement. Maybe you and your
friends you learn how to micromanage effectively (don't worry, I'm not
that great at it either).

I have played a player where I was zerg, and did exactly what you were
talking about to him (a terran player), and failed to finish him off. He
defended by taking his workers away from the minerals to stop me.
Normally I'd say that it is not a smart move, but it worked. I did my
best to keep him busy (initially trying to make sure that there was
always zerglings in his base), and moved up the tech tree as much as I
could. Unfortunately once he did finally get a bunker or 2 up (with the
aid of SCV repairers) I was having major trouble getting into his base.
He certainly earned my respect, and I think he may have won in the end
(he certainly made a game of it).
> 
> Ever play Warcraft3? A simple feature in that game could tip the
> balance. If you play against a computer who's terran and you're
> terran or protoss you might hate how fast a ghost can lock down your
> stuff. Warcraft 3 has an "auto cast" feature. Just right click on a
> "spell icon" and the unit will cast the spell automatically.
> Imagine 20 ghosts against... well... anything but infantry or zerg.
> 
That would put terrran from expert mode, to easy mode, causing it to
have a major nerf.

> But what's the strongest most versatile attack you should start with?
> Infantry w/ firebats and medics? That's worked for me better than
> I'd thought. Tank, valkyrie, science facility combo?
> 
By far is Marines and medics, afterall, a marine and a medic can take
out a zerg sunken colony (assuming a medic has the appropriate energy
reserves). Also, the first 2 buildings a terran should build (other than
a CC & supply depots), are a barracks and academy (exactly what you need
for marines and medics). As mentioned though, it's a starting mechanism.
Protoss reavers or devourers (backed up by almost any other zerg unit)
will rip through them in no time.

As for the rest of the game, it really depends on what your opponent is
doing. For protoss, the obvious choice is Science vessels for EMP and
ghosts for lockdown. For Zerg, it's making sure that your ground
defenses (and this is another of the terrans strength) hold, as well
managed wraiths can make short work of the zergs best air units (as can
protoss scouts).

IN TEH PALECE KNOWEN AS alt.games.starcraft, TEH FAGGORTER Marsh_lion
<marsh...@SPAMparadise.net.nz> DUMPED HIS GHEYE SHIET ON MY COMPUTAR
SCREEN!!!!:

>If you take "peak of power" terran battle cruisers, Science vessels (for
>EMP shockwave) and Lockdown, Protoss are dead withing a short space of
>time (this is assuming an expert at micromanagement). 

Peak of Power any race kills any race if all factors are in their
favor, however such an utopia never happens during games, don't you
agree? There's no "survive to this point, build this-and-this, and you
will have won" -condition that exists.
Since the terran army tends to be such a steamroller when it gets
moving, the goal of Toss in PvT games is to stall and contain that
steamroller from never getting the chance to start, rather than trying
to directly challenge it with force. Bar some lucky cheesing or super
player abilities, Toss will usually not beat equal resource terran -
Thus the long-term goal of Protoss is to keep a constantly superior
economy machine rolling, while Terran's goal is to stall that
machinery to the best of their ability until they're given the chance
to crack out of their shell.

Also, the relative peak of power for the races really is a variable
factor depending on lot's of things - That is to say, the end of the
Tech tree may be the peak of power for Race Z against Race Y, but not
for Race X against Race Z, who might have comparatively better odds at
fighting during the mid-game.


>Maybe you and your
>friends you learn how to micromanage effectively
>
>From the look of the post, if they have trouble with zealot or
Zergling cheese, they need to work on game basics first before
worrying about micro. Well, micro is important in countering rush
cheese, but if he has trouble handling 8-zealot swarms, his main
problems doubly lie elsewhere than his unit management.

But yeah, terran require a good deal of attention to be remotely
effective - Or rather, if you don't pay attention, they're very easy
to kill off. Less forgiving than the other two races, I guess, but
that really depends on the situation.

People should start with Protoss and learn first the game basics and
mechanics with them, since they really need to worry much less about
precise unit management than the other two race in general. 

Well, at the average player level...

>By far is Marines and medics, afterall, a marine and a medic can take
>out a zerg sunken colony (assuming a medic has the appropriate energy
>reserves). Also, the first 2 buildings a terran should build (other than
>a CC & supply depots), are a barracks and academy (exactly what you need
>for marines and medics). As mentioned though, it's a starting mechanism.
>Protoss reavers or devourers (backed up by almost any other zerg unit)
>will rip through them in no time.
>
Protoss basic infantry (goons and Zeals) in general will rip through
terran infantry in small numbers quite well, even with medics on
terran side.
However, most toss that know something will go fast core and goons
immediately when they know the enemy is terran, expecting him to go
straight factory, so sometimes you can catch them off guard with just
a plain old M&M cheese.

>As for the rest of the game, it really depends on what your opponent is
>doing. For protoss, the obvious choice is Science vessels for EMP and
>ghosts for lockdown.

No, the obvious long-term goal is to have dozen factories chewing out
crap non-stop. Same for Zerg, except replace factories with barracks.

It's the decisions you need to make and paths to take in order to get
to that point that decide your fate.
 You can't have or do everything, but need to choose to build /and/
use the right stuff at the right time - and in the right manner. That
is the challenge of the game. You want Gols? Hope you can survive with
a smaller tank presence then. SV and Ghosts? Sure they're nice, but
they eat up a fuckton of gas - Can you afford that?, and if so, will
it still be worth the investment, or would that gas be better put into
just more combat troops? Kill his expansion or go save your own from
his attack? etc


> as well
>managed wraiths can make short work of the zergs best air units (as can
>protoss scouts).

Wraiths are the most horrible air unit in the game, bar the Protoss
Scout (WTF double armor penalty attack on a unit that does explosive
damage and costs half a bazillion of cash?).

1) They're large in size, so they take virtually full damage from
anything that can shoot at them 

2) Their attack is explosive, so they only does half damage to Zerg
Muta  & scourage.

3) They cost more than mutas, yet A) aren't really any more durable,
in fact, they're way more fragile due to fact 1 B) They suck at
fighting muta head-on, See fact 2. C) Again, they're horribly crap
against anything on ground that shoots back.

The only saving grace of the Wraith is their cloak ability, which
isn't of much use once Zerg get the OL speed upgrade. Vs Toss it
sometimes useful to get a few since a lot of people who go (quick)
carrier tend to completely ignore the robotics tech tree...

Most of the time it's just better just make more M&Ms with the money
instead  - Sure they may not be as mobile as wraiths, but 1) They deal
more damage 2) They can take more damage 3) unlike wraiths, they don't
suck ass against anything that can attack them back.
Get one to kill stray overlords early mid-game or a few to chase down
retreating guardians above cliffs perhaps, but other than that, don't
bother.

MuuMiMan wrote:
> IN TEH PALECE KNOWEN AS alt.games.starcraft, TEH FAGGORTER Marsh_lion
> <marsh...@SPAMparadise.net.nz> DUMPED HIS GHEYE SHIET ON MY COMPUTAR
> SCREEN!!!!:
> 
>> If you take "peak of power" terran battle cruisers, Science vessels (for
>> EMP shockwave) and Lockdown, Protoss are dead withing a short space of
>> time (this is assuming an expert at micromanagement). 
> 
> Peak of Power any race kills any race if all factors are in their
> favor, however such an utopia never happens during games, don't you
> agree? There's no "survive to this point, build this-and-this, and you
> will have won" -condition that exists.
> Since the terran army tends to be such a steamroller when it gets
> moving, the goal of Toss in PvT games is to stall and contain that
> steamroller from never getting the chance to start, rather than trying
> to directly challenge it with force. Bar some lucky cheesing or super
> player abilities, Toss will usually not beat equal resource terran -
> Thus the long-term goal of Protoss is to keep a constantly superior
> economy machine rolling, while Terran's goal is to stall that
> machinery to the best of their ability until they're given the chance
> to crack out of their shell.
> 
This I'm not too sure about. IMO it is very hard to get Terran's 
rolling, and when they do, it still isn't all that fast. Take Tanks for 
example, when not in siege mode, their damage is not great (nor is their 
firing speed). Their best damage (and range for that matter) comes with 
siege mode (when they can't move). Battle Cruisers are increadably slow 
and killed quite quickly with focused explosive attacks.  M&M&F are 
killed by splash damage (splash damage quickly makes medics useless when 
used on organic units). Goliaths AI and pathing is crap (and coupled 
with their large size, they are ripped up by explosive attacks. However 
their anti-air is well worth considering).

> Also, the relative peak of power for the races really is a variable
> factor depending on lot's of things - That is to say, the end of the
> Tech tree may be the peak of power for Race Z against Race Y, but not
> for Race X against Race Z, who might have comparatively better odds at
> fighting during the mid-game.
> 
Agreed. IMO, Zerg is best early game, Protoss in mid and Terran 
(assuming a skilled player) near the end.
> 
>> Maybe you and your
>> friends you learn how to micromanage effectively
>>
> From the look of the post, if they have trouble with zealot or
> Zergling cheese, they need to work on game basics first before
> worrying about micro. Well, micro is important in countering rush
> cheese, but if he has trouble handling 8-zealot swarms, his main
> problems doubly lie elsewhere than his unit management.
> 
> But yeah, terran require a good deal of attention to be remotely
> effective - Or rather, if you don't pay attention, they're very easy
> to kill off. Less forgiving than the other two races, I guess, but
> that really depends on the situation.
> 
> People should start with Protoss and learn first the game basics and
> mechanics with them, since they really need to worry much less about
> precise unit management than the other two race in general. 
> 
> Well, at the average player level...
> 
Again I agree. There is no point in learning the finer details of late 
game, if you can be killed in the first 10-15 minutes.

>> By far is Marines and medics, afterall, a marine and a medic can take
>> out a zerg sunken colony (assuming a medic has the appropriate energy
>> reserves). Also, the first 2 buildings a terran should build (other than
>> a CC & supply depots), are a barracks and academy (exactly what you need
>> for marines and medics). As mentioned though, it's a starting mechanism.
>> Protoss reavers or devourers (backed up by almost any other zerg unit)
>> will rip through them in no time.
>>
> Protoss basic infantry (goons and Zeals) in general will rip through
> terran infantry in small numbers quite well, even with medics on
> terran side.
> However, most toss that know something will go fast core and goons
> immediately when they know the enemy is terran, expecting him to go
> straight factory, so sometimes you can catch them off guard with just
> a plain old M&M cheese.
> 
Quite right. However, going back to the original post, it was from the 
Terran viewpoint, for the best start. I also forgot to mention, if 
you're focusing on defense (and not to worried about attacking) you will 
want your marines in a bunker (except maybe when facing goons or hydra's 
(due to their explosive attacks)). As you work up the tech tree, you 
will want to look at tanks and turrets or wraiths (see my comment below 
about them).

>> As for the rest of the game, it really depends on what your opponent is
>> doing. For protoss, the obvious choice is Science vessels for EMP and
>> ghosts for lockdown.
> 
> No, the obvious long-term goal is to have dozen factories chewing out
> crap non-stop. Same for Zerg, except replace factories with barracks.
> 
That depends on what your opponent is going for (you've got to remember 
that surveillance goes a long way in winning battles). If it's large air 
units (Carriers (you MUST focus fire here - ever seen a Battle cruiser 
on auto against a carrier or a sourge take out an interceptor?), 
Guardians, Devourers & Battle cruisers), Wraiths (again see my comment 
about these below) and Goliaths are what you need, large ground units 
(dragoons are debatable), I'd go for tanks. All other situations I would 
consider M&M&F.

> It's the decisions you need to make and paths to take in order to get
> to that point that decide your fate.
>  You can't have or do everything, but need to choose to build /and/
> use the right stuff at the right time - and in the right manner. That
> is the challenge of the game. You want Gols? Hope you can survive with
> a smaller tank presence then. SV and Ghosts? Sure they're nice, but
> they eat up a fuckton of gas - Can you afford that?, and if so, will
> it still be worth the investment, or would that gas be better put into
> just more combat troops? Kill his expansion or go save your own from
> his attack? etc
> 
So true. One thing to consider is that Gas is the only truely unlimited 
resource on any map (even when depleted, they still give gas).
> 
>> as well
>> managed wraiths can make short work of the zergs best air units (as can
>> protoss scouts).
> 
> Wraiths are the most horrible air unit in the game, bar the Protoss
> Scout (WTF double armor penalty attack on a unit that does explosive
> damage and costs half a bazillion of cash?).
> 
> 1) They're large in size, so they take virtually full damage from
> anything that can shoot at them 
> 
Correction, they are not large. IIRC the manual says they are small, 
although they may well have been patched up to medium (marines are 
small, hydra's, zealots & Protoss Scouts are medium and dragoons are large).

> 2) Their attack is explosive, so they only does half damage to Zerg
> Muta  & scourage.
> 
I agree. IMO Muta's generally suck (isn't their attack explosive as 
well?) and sourage die on attack, so I don't use them all that much.

> 3) They cost more than mutas, yet A) aren't really any more durable,
> in fact, they're way more fragile due to fact 1 B) They suck at
> fighting muta head-on, See fact 2. C) Again, they're horribly crap
> against anything on ground that shoots back.
> 
Again true.

> The only saving grace of the Wraith is their cloak ability, which
> isn't of much use once Zerg get the OL speed upgrade. Vs Toss it
> sometimes useful to get a few since a lot of people who go (quick)
> carrier tend to completely ignore the robotics tech tree...
> 
Wraiths are great for hit and runs (sure vultures are faster, but they 
can't attack air, nor go over cliffs) and large air units. They are even 
better if the enemy is stupid enough not to detect them.

> Most of the time it's just better just make more M&Ms with the money
> instead  - Sure they may not be as mobile as wraiths, but 1) They deal
> more damage 2) They can take more damage 3) unlike wraiths, they don't
> suck ass against anything that can attack them back.
> Get one to kill stray overlords early mid-game or a few to chase down
> retreating guardians above cliffs perhaps, but other than that, don't
> bother.
> 
As a general rule, massing any sort of unit as a terran, is a mistake. 
Their advantage is they can cause a lot of trouble with just a few units 
(ghost with lockdown and nukes, Science vessels EMP and Irradiate, hit 
and runs with wraiths & vultures). As a Terran, one way to win, is to 
make your enemy panic (and not know where you are comming from).
--
Marsh Lion

IN TEH PALECE KNOWEN AS alt.games.starcraft, TEH FAGGORTER Marsh_lion
<marsh...@SPAMparadise.net.nz> DUMPED HIS GHEYE SHIET ON MY COMPUTAR
SCREEN!!!!:
>This I'm not too sure about. IMO it is very hard to get Terran's 
>rolling, and when they do, it still isn't all that fast. 

I never claimed they were fast - In fact, if you read my message, my
major complain was how I'm unable relatively unable compete with the
slowness of terran in situations that require your units to be fast
somewhere totally else than where they are.
With the "rolling" I was referring to the fact that bar tricky unit
maneuvering and lot's of resources, it's /very/ hard for Toss to
challenge a leap-frogging terran ground army head on. It's a suicide
run, lest you have a chance for flanking or some more special crap at
your disposal.

>Take Tanks for 
>example, when not in siege mode, their damage is not great (nor is their 
>firing speed). 

Unsieged tanks match goons one on one pretty well, so they're hardly
weak. It's just that they're a lot more expensive and also far more
effective in siege mode, so you can't really use them most of the time
in the same manner.

>Goliaths AI and pathing is crap (and coupled 
>with their large size, they are ripped up by explosive attacks. However 
>their anti-air is well worth considering).
>
Goliath pathing is a factor on cliff-heavy maps and against an
opponent who has a clue on how to use his air units effectively, but
open ground they're gods.I still say you should despite that rely on
gols mostly for AA, but as said earlier, a handful of wraiths to chase
down stray or half-dead retreats can come in handy - Just don't throw
them down into the main fray and expect them to live through it.


>Agreed. IMO, Zerg is best early game, Protoss in mid and Terran 
>(assuming a skilled player) near the end.
>

I wouldn't really agree with that, and what the respective power peak
will be is going to heavily depend on what race your opponent is, as
well as the map being played - More over, its a more quickly and often
shifting thing and trying to break it down into just the 3 major tech
periods is simplifying things to the point where it's questionable if
they hold any truth in them.

>If you're focusing on defense (and not to worried about attacking) you will 
>want your marines in a bunker 
Marines in bunker are a waste of 100 minerals and slow your tech if
you're doing a wallin, and against zerg you can just pull 1-2 SCV(s)
off minerals to the choke and achieve almost the same effect.

On maps with ramps the only place I tend to bunker is the peon line,
and even only then if I'm expecting Muta or some form of drops from
the enemy. And that bunker you're not going to need until early
mid-game at the earliest.


>So true. One thing to consider is that Gas is the only truely unlimited 
>resource on any map (even when depleted, they still give gas).
>
But since the rate of aquisition is so slow, that is by large
irrelevant as long as there's still minable gas mines on the map, so
it really only becomes a factor into the game when playing extremely
resource-limited maps.

>> 1) They're large in size, so they take virtually full damage from
>> anything that can shoot at them 
>> 
>Correction, they are not large. IIRC the manual says they are small, 
>although they may well have been patched up to medium (marines are 
>small, hydra's, zealots & Protoss Scouts are medium and dragoons are large).
>
I don't know what the manual says since I've misplaced it somewhere
ages ago, but I suggest you check your facts -  Wraiths are large, and
have always been large ever since version 1.00.
You can check that by actually going into the game and shooting at
them with an explosive attack, or just go the unit statistic's section
on Blizz SCC (http://www.battle.net/scc/terran/ustats.shtml).

Also, Zealots are small and scouts are large. Only medium-sized air
unit is the Corsair.


>> 2) Their attack is explosive, so they only does half damage to Zerg
>> Muta  & scourage.
>> 
>I agree. IMO Muta's generally suck (isn't their attack explosive as 
>well?) and sourage die on attack, so I don't use them all that much.
>
Muta do normal damage. They wouldn't be even half as threatening if
they'd do explosive damage.


>Wraiths are great for hit and runs (sure vultures are faster, but they 
>can't attack air, nor go over cliffs) and large air units. They are even 
>better if the enemy is stupid enough not to detect them.
>
Wraiths are great for hit & runs - If you're chasing air targets.

MuuMiMan wrote:
> IN TEH PALECE KNOWEN AS alt.games.starcraft, TEH FAGGORTER Marsh_lion
> <marsh...@SPAMparadise.net.nz> DUMPED HIS GHEYE SHIET ON MY COMPUTAR
> SCREEN!!!!:
>> This I'm not too sure about. IMO it is very hard to get Terran's 
>> rolling, and when they do, it still isn't all that fast. 
> 
> I never claimed they were fast - In fact, if you read my message, my
> major complain was how I'm unable relatively unable compete with the
> slowness of terran in situations that require your units to be fast
> somewhere totally else than where they are.
> With the "rolling" I was referring to the fact that bar tricky unit
> maneuvering and lot's of resources, it's /very/ hard for Toss to
> challenge a leap-frogging terran ground army head on. It's a suicide
> run, lest you have a chance for flanking or some more special crap at
> your disposal.
> 
I misunderstood you there. While there are ways, I've hardly ever put 
them into practice (although I have used leapfrogging tanks in the past).

>> Take Tanks for 
>> example, when not in siege mode, their damage is not great (nor is their 
>> firing speed). 
> 
> Unsieged tanks match goons one on one pretty well, so they're hardly
> weak. It's just that they're a lot more expensive and also far more
> effective in siege mode, so you can't really use them most of the time
> in the same manner.
> 
Not to mention they can't attack air (there are times when I love to 
mass goons - there is no way that would work with tanks).

>> Goliaths AI and pathing is crap (and coupled 
>> with their large size, they are ripped up by explosive attacks. However 
>> their anti-air is well worth considering).
>>
> Goliath pathing is a factor on cliff-heavy maps and against an
> opponent who has a clue on how to use his air units effectively, but
> open ground they're gods.I still say you should despite that rely on
> gols mostly for AA, but as said earlier, a handful of wraiths to chase
> down stray or half-dead retreats can come in handy - Just don't throw
> them down into the main fray and expect them to live through it.
> 
Golaiths (apart from attacking Air) are basically 2 (dumb) marines 
squashed together. Their extra durability comes from their extra cost.
> 
>> Agreed. IMO, Zerg is best early game, Protoss in mid and Terran 
>> (assuming a skilled player) near the end.
> 
> I wouldn't really agree with that, and what the respective power peak
> will be is going to heavily depend on what race your opponent is, as
> well as the map being played - More over, its a more quickly and often
> shifting thing and trying to break it down into just the 3 major tech
> periods is simplifying things to the point where it's questionable if
> they hold any truth in them.
> 
Quite right. I just find that it's easy to get somewhere fast as Zerg 
(generally until good splash comes about - Protoss Reavers do a good job 
of that), Protoss take me a little longer (and it gives me a chance to 
enjoy the game more). Terran on the other hand, I can't play all that 
well, but can appreciate how a good player plays them (and I see that 
with effective use of Science vessels, and ghosts - all of which are 
generally found in the late game).

>> If you're focusing on defense (and not to worried about attacking) you will 
>> want your marines in a bunker 
> Marines in bunker are a waste of 100 minerals and slow your tech if
> you're doing a wallin, and against zerg you can just pull 1-2 SCV(s)
> off minerals to the choke and achieve almost the same effect.
> 
> On maps with ramps the only place I tend to bunker is the peon line,
> and even only then if I'm expecting Muta or some form of drops from
> the enemy. And that bunker you're not going to need until early
> mid-game at the earliest.
> 
As mentioned - it's for defending as opposed to attacking. I don't wall 
in as a general rule, so find bunkers very handy in making my defenses 
last until re-enforcements arrive (you mentioned about Terrans movement 
speed earlier).
> 
>> So true. One thing to consider is that Gas is the only truely unlimited 
>> resource on any map (even when depleted, they still give gas).
>>
> But since the rate of aquisition is so slow, that is by large
> irrelevant as long as there's still minable gas mines on the map, so
> it really only becomes a factor into the game when playing extremely
> resource-limited maps.
> 
Something any player should think about when playing on a familiar map.

>>> 1) They're large in size, so they take virtually full damage from
>>> anything that can shoot at them 
>>>
>> Correction, they are not large. IIRC the manual says they are small, 
>> although they may well have been patched up to medium (marines are 
>> small, hydra's, zealots & Protoss Scouts are medium and dragoons are large).
>>
> I don't know what the manual says since I've misplaced it somewhere
> ages ago, but I suggest you check your facts -  Wraiths are large, and
> have always been large ever since version 1.00.
> You can check that by actually going into the game and shooting at
> them with an explosive attack, or just go the unit statistic's section
> on Blizz SCC (http://www.battle.net/scc/terran/ustats.shtml).
> 
> Also, Zealots are small and scouts are large. Only medium-sized air
> unit is the Corsair.
> 
I could have sworn otherwise (put a marine and a zealot in a dropship to 
see what I mean).

>> Wraiths are great for hit and runs (sure vultures are faster, but they 
>> can't attack air, nor go over cliffs) and large air units. They are even 
>> better if the enemy is stupid enough not to detect them.
>>
> Wraiths are great for hit & runs - If you're chasing air targets.
> 
What's easier to do - Get vultures through a chock point, or get wraiths 
to avoid a chock point? OK dropships can help vultures, but are easy 
prey for any anti-air (I'd consider anything else too slow).

You've also got to remember, that knowing the map can be a huge 
advantage. Not only do you have to adjust your tactics for who you are 
playing against, you have to adjust for the map. A map like bloodbath 
requires considerably different tactic's to a map like the killing fields.

--
Marsh Lion
Crazy programmer

On Tue, 06 Jun 2006 17:53:40 +1200, Marsh_lion
<marsh...@SPAMparadise.net.nz> wrote:
 
>As mentioned - it's for defending as opposed to attacking. I don't wall 
>in as a general rule, so find bunkers very handy in making my defenses 
>last until re-enforcements arrive (you mentioned about Terrans movement 
>speed earlier).
>

Never said they weren't of use, but at start you want to seriously cut
down all extra costs and channel your money into something that allows
you to take control of the game. If you don't need the bunker  until 5
minutes later, don't build the bunker until 5 minutes later - That
extra 100 minerals is going to allow you  to start building your
factory ~15  seconds earlier, for example.


>> Also, Zealots are small and scouts are large. Only medium-sized air
>> unit is the Corsair.
>> 
>I could have sworn otherwise (put a marine and a zealot in a dropship to 
>see what I mean).

Ah, I see.
While it initially may appear otherwise, the size units take in
transports has no correlation to their damage "size" modifier (eg,
Goliaths are large, but you can still cram 4 of them into a dropship,
etc).


>What's easier to do - Get vultures through a chock point, or get wraiths 
>to avoid a chock point? OK dropships can help vultures, but are easy 
>prey for any anti-air (I'd consider anything else too slow).
>
Given the choice, I'd rather drop 4 vultures with mines than use a
pack of wraiths :p. Also, if there's AA and/or you're spotted, your
wraith attack would be equally screwed. Vultures kill peons a fuckton
faster than wraiths, and tricking would-be exterminators to run into
the mines you lay all over the place can end up being costly for your
enemy ;-).

Of course, both assaults are for naught if he has as much as 1 cannon
in the peon line...

>You've also got to remember, that knowing the map can be a huge 
>advantage. Not only do you have to adjust your tactics for who you are 
>playing against, you have to adjust for the map. A map like bloodbath 
>requires considerably different tactic's to a map like the killing fields.

Yes. I never play a previously unknown map with unknown people.