🚀 go-pugleaf

In article <bazA2.4747$pE6....@server1.news.adelphia.net>, 
tabm...@geoshitties.com says...
> > > > > There's no fear there, not even hatred.  I "love the sinner,
> > > > > hate the sin".  
> > > > 
> > > > Are you saying you love all homosexuals without question? 
> > > > If so why do you hate the "sin"? 
> > > 
> > > I hate the sin because it gets the *person* in trouble
> > > (discrimination at the very least) when they could go and
> > > seek professional help, get rid of it, and go on living
> > > a normal life.
> > 
> > Do you hate coloured skin because the skin colour attracts discrimination 
> > through racism? Would you prefer skin colour was always white so that 
> > they would not have to suffer in this way? 
> > 
> > Do you hate female qualities because they attract discrimination through 
> > sexism? Would you prefer females had only male qualities so that they 
> > would not have to suffer in this way?
> > 
> > Hypocritical response expected :P

and received :P

> 
> No, because they are not learned behaviours.  

Nor is homosexuality. If it is then so is heterosexuality.

> Views on 
> homosexuality are not comparable to sex and race
> discrimination, but are comparable to views on stealing,
> rape, killing, etc.  

Not at all. 

Theft deprives the victim of some possession(s). It causes pain for the 
victim emotionally and possibly financially. The thief profits unjustly.

Rape is forced sexual intercourse with another person without their 
consent. The rapist gets laid etc and the victim suffers emotionally and 
possibly physically.

Murder is the taking of life. The victim loses big time. They lose their 
life. The murderer profits in some way or the murder would not have been 
necessary.

As you can see the above have some common denominators. A victim or 
victims which suffer and the perpetrator who profits in some way.

Homosexuality is the description of two people of the same sex who are 
deeply attracted to one another and engage in a relationship which is 
often seen between the sexes. There are no victims. There is no unjust 
profit. There is no abuser. No one gets hurt. We just have two happy 
people.

Now, how does homosexuality even begin to compare with rape, murder and 
theft?

Race discrimination is abuse of a person based on race. The victim 
suffers emotionally and possibly physically.

Sex discrimination is abuse of a person based on their sex. The victim 
suffers emotionally and possibly physically.

Homosexual discrimination is abuse of a person based on their sexual 
attraction to the same sex. The victim suffers emotionally and possibly 
physically.

Now these obviously compare since they have a victim of discrimination 
and perpetrator(s) who are abusing them. 

You have claimed that homosexuality can be cured. It cannot.

You have claimed homosexuality is wrong because homosexuals invite 
discrimination by their acts. This is comparable to any form of 
discrimination based on sex, religion, ability, race, etc. It is not the 
victim(s) that needs to change it is the perpetrator(s) of the abuse.

Discriminating against homosexuality is as bad as discriminating against 
someone who has blue eyes. They are both genetic. They are both natural. 
They are both immutable.

> I don't hate thieves, rapists,
> homosexuals, and what have you but I *do* hate what they
> do.

I do not know if you have a sister so I'll have to use your mother. 
(couldn't think of a better word for "use" ;))

Let's say you get home tomorrow and your mother has been viciously raped. 
No drugs or anything, she was completely aware throughout the ordeal. She 
was beaten into submission and then raped and not just once. The rapist 
did not take precautions. 

Still love the guy? 

OK, turning the other cheek maybe. The guy gets caught. Your mother 
decides rightly to prosecute. She has already relived the rape once with 
the police and the hospital, now she must relive it in a court room with 
the rapist staring across the room at her. And he IS staring. 

Still love the guy?

The guy gets off. Apparently, his girlfriend claims he was with her at 
the time. She brushes off questions about her bruised face when asked on 
the stand. She fell. (right onto his fist is in her eyes but not spoken). 
The rapist has a good lawyer who also manages to rebuke police evidence 
based on some obscure rule that was overlooked. Case dismissed.

On the way out of the courthouse he mutters some obscene remark to your 
mother and laughs.

Still love the guy?

Your mother will have to live with this rape her whole life and it will 
likely affect her relationship with your father. 

Still love the guy?

A few months later, the guy is on trial again for raping another woman. 
You just catch it on the news on night. 

The same day your mother discovers she is pregnant. 

Now, can you honestly say that your feelings of hatred are only for what 
he did and not against him? 

And what do you do about the child?

If you met the guy in a bar would you buy him a beer and "shoot some 
pool". During the conversation you could drop in, "Look I like you as 
a person but you ought to get help with your rape problem". 


> > > > What exactly is it you hate or fear?
> > > 
> > > Fear = nothing relevant to the conversation
> > > Hate = Homosexuality.  Not homosexuals, homosexuality.
> > 
> > What is a homosexual? It is a person who is attracted to their own sex. 
> > What is the problem with that? Nothing. 
> > 
> > I hate golf, I do not demand all golfers seek medical aid. Some people 
> > are so inclined. 
> > 
> > As you can see from the above, I see your point, but your are talking 
> > about a characteristic that cannot be "fixed" or "cured" and is as 
> > natural as inter sex attraction and saying you hate it. Why if you love 
> > the person so much must you demand they change? If you love the person 
> > you accept them for everything that they are and everything that they do. 
> > You cannot pick and choose which bits you will "allow". 
> 
> Oh, so it's all or nothing now. You either have to love someone
> and support them on everything they do or hate them and be opposed
> to everything they do.  Sorry, but it just doesn't work that way.

Reading what you will again. If you cannot accept someone for everything 
that they are, you do not accept them. Love is accepting someone for 
everything that they are and therefore is all or nothing. Even if there 
are things you do not like, you accept them. You do this not just with a 
lover but with friends as well. If not then your are a bad lover/friend 
and should look elsewhere.

> > > > The action makes the person what they are. 
> > > 
> > > I don't think so.  A non-smoker is still the same person they are
> > > when they start smoking.  And then still the same person after that
> > > when they stop.
> > 
> > Disagree.
> 
> They are the same person doing different things.  
> If a murderer was sentenced to prison, and then he stopped,
> he is still the same man he was when he killed someone.
> He is also the same guy he was before he killed someone.

Wrong.

-- 
Mark