🚀 go-pugleaf

In article <NEVES.94J...@ballard.cs.colorado.edu> ne...@ballard.cs.colorado.edu (NEVES RICHARD K) writes:
>
>I just grabbed the shareware version of doom and played it for the
>first time today.   
>
>I was VERY disturbed to see this huge swastika in one of the rooms.
>It bothers me 'cause it makes me think the creators of the game have
>some sort of agenda.   That's really nasty and dangerous symbolism,
>don't you guys think.

Wolfenstein 3D had swastika's up the wazoo, but no one said a word.  
What's with the big bruhaha now?

In article <NEVES.94J...@ballard.cs.colorado.edu> ne...@ballard.cs.colorado.edu (NEVES RICHARD K) writes:
>I just grabbed the shareware version of doom and played it for the
>first time today.   
>
>I was VERY disturbed to see this huge swastika in one of the rooms.
>It bothers me 'cause it makes me think the creators of the game have
>some sort of agenda.   That's really nasty and dangerous symbolism,
>don't you guys think.
>
>I'm not sure how well I can describe where this is at, but here goes:
>
>It is in the second "level".  You go into a room, and if you walk
>around long enough, the walls sink into the ground in the shape of a
>gigantic swastika.  Looking at the map (tab key) makes it really
>apparent.
>
>I shouldn't have to explain what is BAD about this symbol.  It is not
>fictional.  It is part of history that is scary.
>
>So, someone tell me.  Is this convenient scenery or something more?
>
>I would be relieved if it was just convenient scenery, but I still
>don't thing it deserves the pixels.
>
>I enjoyed the game, so this was a real bummer.
>
>Rich

Someone ought to show this guy a copy of Wolfenstein 3D... he'd probably
have a heart attack.

I also think it's funny that random acts of violence with pentagrams and
satannic symbols are okay, but swastikas are right out.

Rich:  Get a life.  It's just a game.  Get over it.

Bruce

-- 
|-----  Bruce Sterling Woodcock  ------  Internet:  ster...@netcom.com  -----|
Yes.  We fuck.  Often, and with great enjoyment of the act.  We aren't married,
we use birth control, we use interesting little toys on occasion.  We moan like
beasts in heat.  Life is *great*.  -- Bryant, ref. to Erin, on alt.brother-jed.

This topic has been beaten up pretty baddly.  Here are my opinions

I don't think the people at Id are a bunch of Nazi's 

If the people at Id are in fact Nazi's, how in the world would putting 
a nazi symbol in their game further thier efforts or thier agenda??
It's hardly subliminal, everybody has noticed it.  

Also, the maps, graphics, sound are a very small part of the game (I 
know, sounds like I just said the entire game)  What makes up this game 
is the graphics ENGINE.  Id could have easily given it almost any other 
setting with minimal effort.  Expect to see this when maps and graphics 
editors are released (there is already a sound editor out)

So, when a map editor is released, you'll probably be able to remove 
that nazi symbol and what not easily at your personal comfort.  

I recommend not getting all upset because you saw that in there, when I 
first saw it I was a bit shocked and confused and passed it off as a 
"wierd" thing.  Perhaps it as a mistake, maybe it was in an inside joke 
at Id over Wolfenstien 3-D (which was FILLED with nazi symbols because it 
was all about killing nazis) Who knows...

It doesn't really matter, it's only one room in the entire game.  It 
probably took less code to store that room then it did to type this message.

-- 
\      /~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 \    / |  | ,~~, |   |~\
  \  /  |--| |  | |   | |
   \/   |  | `__' |__ |_/

In article <albertwC...@netcom.com>,
The Feddie Punk of Solomon <alb...@netcom.com> wrote:
|In article <NEVES.94J...@ballard.cs.colorado.edu>
ne...@ballard.cs.colorado.edu (NEVES RICHARD K) writes: >>
|>I just grabbed the shareware version of doom and played it for the
|>first time today.   
|>
|>I was VERY disturbed to see this huge swastika in one of the rooms.
|>It bothers me 'cause it makes me think the creators of the game have
|>some sort of agenda.   That's really nasty and dangerous symbolism,
|>don't you guys think.
|
|Wolfenstein 3D had swastika's up the wazoo, but no one said a word.  
|>What's with the big bruhaha now?

Well...  Wolfenstein had a reason to have the swastika portrayed every
three feet...  You WERE, afterall, in a castle/whatever of the nazis...

However...  Just because the swastika shape is used, doesn't automatically
insinuate the shape is symbolizing the nazi icon...

 /----------------------------------------------------------------------\
<> Stephan K. Zitz                  <>  My mind is my best friend...    <>
<> zi...@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu          <>   And my worst enemy...          <> 
 \======================================================================/

ne...@ballard.cs.colorado.edu (NEVES RICHARD K) writes:

> 
> I just grabbed the shareware version of doom and played it for the
> first time today.   
> 
> I was VERY disturbed to see this huge swastika in one of the rooms.
> It bothers me 'cause it makes me think the creators of the game have
> some sort of agenda.   That's really nasty and dangerous symbolism,
> don't you guys think.
> 

See, now, you're going after the bad Guys in the Bad Guys' fortress...
Therefore anything you see in the fortress should also be taken as a
bad thing... follow me here? Good. Sheesh - I really hope you were joking 
about that "agenda" stuff. Heehee.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"What are warez? What is cracking?        [excerpt from soundtrack of
I think I know what phreaking is	  soon-to-be-released film
but what the hell is hacking?" -tybalt	  Nightmare before voXmas]

				-Lu...@phantom.com

Bruce Sterling Woodcock (ster...@netcom.com) wrote:

> Someone ought to show this guy a copy of Wolfenstein 3D... he'd probably
> have a heart attack.

> I also think it's funny that random acts of violence with pentagrams and
> satannic symbols are okay, but swastikas are right out.

> Rich:  Get a life.  It's just a game.  Get over it.

They had a place in Wolf3D...it made sense, you were in a castle
*destroying* nazis. But there's no reason for it in Doom, which is why
it's a little disconcering.

--
.........1.11.21.1211.111221.312211.13112221.1113213211.31131211131221.........
.wash...rinse...agitate...explode...DIE!!! - Dishwasher, _Ghost in the Machine.
...dave sklar \ sk...@minerva.cis.yale.edu \ "i just grin as i walk" - bboys...

In article <1994Jan9.0...@news.yale.edu>,
David Sarcastic <sk...@minerva.cis.yale.edu> wrote:
|>Bruce Sterling Woodcock (ster...@netcom.com) wrote:
|>
|>> Someone ought to show this guy a copy of Wolfenstein 3D... he'd probably
|>> have a heart attack.
|>
|>> I also think it's funny that random acts of violence with pentagrams and
|>> satannic symbols are okay, but swastikas are right out.
|>
|>> Rich:  Get a life.  It's just a game.  Get over it.
|>
|>They had a place in Wolf3D...it made sense, you were in a castle
|>*destroying* nazis. But there's no reason for it in Doom, which is why
|>it's a little disconcering.
|>

Without meaning to sound too argumentative or anything...  IF I made a
game and used a cross figure as part of the room, would it anger you?

Seriously...  Some shapes just fit better for a certain situation... 
maybe the swastika figure worked best in this situation...  and given that
5x5 grid it was in....  *shrug*

|>--
|>.........1.11.21.1211.111221.312211.13112221.1113213211.31131211131221.........
|>..dave sklar \ sk...@minerva.cis.yale.edu \ "i just grin as i walk" -bboys...

umm... :)  shouldn't that be
1..11..21..1112..3112..211213..312213...212223....
:):)

 /----------------------------------------------------------------------\
<> Stephan K. Zitz                  <>  My mind is my best friend...    <>
<> zi...@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu          <>   And my worst enemy...          <> 
 \======================================================================/

Stephan K. Zitz (zi...@sylvester.cc.utexas.edu) wrote:

> Without meaning to sound too argumentative or anything...  IF I made a
> game and used a cross figure as part of the room, would it anger you?

While both the Catholic Church [at various times] and the Nazis [pretty
much all the time] made it their mission to destroy Jews, no, that
wouldn't bother me.

> Seriously...  Some shapes just fit better for a certain situation... 
> maybe the swastika figure worked best in this situation...  and given that
> 5x5 grid it was in....  *shrug*

yeah, it's no big deal and *I*'m certainly still playing it.
But, I mean, if there was some graffiti scrawled on a wall saying
something like, "Kill the Chinks", that would certainly be out of place
and this is sort of like that....

> |>.........1.11.21.1211.111221.312211.13112221.1113213211.31131211131221.........

> umm... :)  shouldn't that be
> 1..11..21..1112..3112..211213..312213...212223....
> :):)

I guess you could do it that way..like numerically instead of in the order
it comes down the line...I just heard about it 1211, etc.. :)



--
.........1.11.21.1211.111221.312211.13112221.1113213211.31131211131221.........
.wash...rinse...agitate...explode...DIE!!! - Dishwasher, _Ghost in the Machine.
...dave sklar \ sk...@minerva.cis.yale.edu \ "i just grin as i walk" - bboys...

In article <1994Jan9.0...@news.yale.edu> sk...@minerva.cis.yale.edu (David Sarcastic) writes:
>Bruce Sterling Woodcock (ster...@netcom.com) wrote:
>They had a place in Wolf3D...it made sense, you were in a castle
>*destroying* nazis. But there's no reason for it in Doom, which is why
>it's a little disconcering.

Who are you to say what has reason to be in Doom and what doesn't?  Are
you a developer?  Most likely, as someone else pointed out, it was an
inside joke about Wolf3D.  And, as someone else pointed out, the people
you are fighting are supposed to be *bad* guys.

There's no reason for lots of things in Doom, like power-ups and chainsaws
and pressure plates.  None of these belong in a scientific installation,
either.

Oh, gee, I think that one oval-shaped crossing across the acid pit looks
blantantly sexual... we'd better remove that too.

Bruce

-- 
|-----  Bruce Sterling Woodcock  ------  Internet:  ster...@netcom.com  -----|
Yes.  We fuck.  Often, and with great enjoyment of the act.  We aren't married,
we use birth control, we use interesting little toys on occasion.  We moan like
beasts in heat.  Life is *great*.  -- Bryant, ref. to Erin, on alt.brother-jed.

Bruce Sterling Woodcock (ster...@netcom.com) wrote:

> Who are you to say what has reason to be in Doom and what doesn't?  Are
> you a developer?  Most likely, as someone else pointed out, it was an
> inside joke about Wolf3D.  And, as someone else pointed out, the people
> you are fighting are supposed to be *bad* guys.

OK, Sorry, *I see* no reason for it in doom. But what do aliens know of
naziism? 

> There's no reason for lots of things in Doom, like power-ups and chainsaws
> and pressure plates.  None of these belong in a scientific installation,
> either.

None of those represent organized genocide to a lot of people.

> Oh, gee, I think that one oval-shaped crossing across the acid pit looks
> blantantly sexual... we'd better remove that too.

You're making a large leap that is kind of silly.

--
.........1.11.21.1211.111221.312211.13112221.1113213211.31131211131221.........
.wash...rinse...agitate...explode...DIE!!! - Dishwasher, _Ghost in the Machine.
...dave sklar \ sk...@minerva.cis.yale.edu \ "i just grin as i walk" - bboys...

In article <NEVES.94J...@ballard.cs.colorado.edu> ne...@ballard.cs.colorado.edu (NEVES RICHARD K) writes:
>
>I just grabbed the shareware version of doom and played it for the
>first time today.   
>
>I was VERY disturbed to see this huge swastika in one of the rooms.
>It bothers me 'cause it makes me think the creators of the game have
>some sort of agenda.   That's really nasty and dangerous symbolism,
>don't you guys think.
>Rich

PLEASE!  NOT THIS GOD-DAMNED THREAD AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!
We just spent two weeks reading through 'swastika is evil' - 'it is a 
BACKWARDS swastika' crap in December!  I don't want to go through it again!

I'm gonna say this once, and then I'm gonna ignore this thread.

1: Did you notice that the 'swatika' made a convienent (sp?) trap?

2: Have you ever noticed that the swastika has been in use by other
   cultures LONG before Hitler decided to use it?

3: Did you consider that it MIGHT be a refernce to ID's last game?
   (Castle Wolfenstein 3D)

4: Does it REALLY matter?

Personally, I don't care.  I doubt that ID is full of neo-nazi shit head 
racists with nothing better to do than hide pro-nazi refernces in a game with 
enough demonic refernces to choke a Fundie.

Shut up, get a grip, and get a life!

+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The box...you opened it.  We came. It's a means to summon us - Cenobites. |
| Explorers in the further regions of experience.  Demons to some, angels to |
| others. ... No tears please. It's a waste of good suffering." - Pinhead    |
| rrw...@netcom.com                                                          |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

Yes.  Yes!  YES!  There WAS a swastika in doom.  Get over it*.
10 to 1 it was a reference to Wolfenstein, a great game that
deserves as much plugging and bragging as the ID guys want.
As I'm sure there will be Doom references in future games.
If there is anybody from ID out there, please, PLEASE!!! just
post an explanation, so we don't have to have another 500 messages
on the evils of Nazism**, swastikas, religious symbols, etc. ad nauseum
(a quite literal latin in this case).  Put it in the FAQ!  Have a
SPECIAL SWASTIKA REPORT!!!  Every week, a post that says "YES!  There
IS a reference to Nazis in Doom!  Please do not comment.  See the FAQ."
Maybe start a NEW newsgroup!  Alt.games.doom.evil.nazi.symbol.and.its.
malignant.meanings.  Then it can have it's own FTP site, just for 
papers, articles, and future college theses on Nazism in Computer Games!

For the humor/sarcasm impared (who (coincidentally?) tend to be
the same people who insist on posting "There's Nazis in my computer 
game!"***) this is a long dead, stinking, rotting, barely recognizable 
corpse of a horse****.  Stop beating on it.  This group is only 500 
messages old.  Don't make me start a kill file already.

<Sigh>  I know this will do absolutely zero good in stopping it.
But I feel better.  Now I can sleep tonight.

* No, I don't approve of Nazis.  I know of their atrocities.
  I don't want to hear about that either.

** Nazism can also be spelled Nasiism.  Both are correct spellings.
   I checked.  Yes, that's right.  I was anal retentive, just for 
   you.  I don't want to hear about that either.

*** No, I don't think Nazism is funny.  It is one of the most vile
    embodiments of evil ever to come down the pike.  Ditto.

**** I don't approve of cruelty to animals, either.

Now.  Have I covered everything?  Good.  Now we can let it drop.

-- 
Nathan Don Walton, wal...@owlnet.rice.edu, Rice University, Houston, Texas
The preceding text is a study in bovine scatology.

In article <NEVES.94J...@ballard.cs.colorado.edu> ne...@ballard.cs.colorado.edu (NEVES RICHARD K) writes:
>
>I just grabbed the shareware version of doom and played it for the
>first time today.   
>
>I was VERY disturbed to see this huge swastika in one of the rooms.
>It bothers me 'cause it makes me think the creators of the game have
>some sort of agenda.   That's really nasty and dangerous symbolism,
>don't you guys think.
>
>I'm not sure how well I can describe where this is at, but here goes:
>
>It is in the second "level".  You go into a room, and if you walk
>around long enough, the walls sink into the ground in the shape of a
>gigantic swastika.  Looking at the map (tab key) makes it really
>apparent.
>
>I shouldn't have to explain what is BAD about this symbol.  It is not
>fictional.  It is part of history that is scary.
>
>So, someone tell me.  Is this convenient scenery or something more?
>
>I would be relieved if it was just convenient scenery, but I still
>don't thing it deserves the pixels.
>
>I enjoyed the game, so this was a real bummer.
>
>Rich
>
>


OHHH NO!! 
another bozo !!! this thread has been beat to death in .action.
in any case, The underground Nazi rule is that a program is truely a 
nazi prg. if one can find in Ascii the codes for "Zieg Heil" 10 times
in the main prg's exec file.

If the string is not there, then the prg. is not registered with the local
KKK org.


					Walt

Well first, let me say that I'm Jewish, so I was pretty offended when I first
saw it two, except for two things:
   1) It's backwards.
   2) It's HELL. Where do you think the Nazi's got it from?
						- Adam



*- "Because only natural products are used, taste, color and body may vary."
*- 							- Snapple
*>> Adam Fields (ar...@columbia.edu)  
*>> The Philolexian Society, ADP, Horizon's Edge Enterprises, Userfriendly Inc.

Also, there ARE inverted crosses in Doom as well... Look at the red doorway
in episode 2, maze 1...
						- Adam




*- "Because only natural products are used, taste, color and body may vary."
*- 							- Snapple
*>> Adam Fields (ar...@columbia.edu)  
*>> The Philolexian Society, ADP, Horizon's Edge Enterprises, Userfriendly Inc.

In article 94Jan8...@ballard.cs.colorado.edu, ne...@ballard.cs.colorado.edu (NEVES RICHARD K) writes:
   
 
> I was VERY disturbed to see this huge swastika in one of the rooms.
> It bothers me 'cause it makes me think the creators of the game have
> some sort of agenda.   That's really nasty and dangerous symbolism,
> don't you guys think.

You're playing what is probably one of the most violent, bloody, and generally abhorrent games on the market today (I love it so :) ) and you're concerned about the presence of a swastika?  Excuse me, but get a clue.

It's probably a holdover from wolfenstein, which had nazis as the bad guys.  So chill. 

Besides, demons have taken over, so isn't an nasty symbol appropriate?  I mean, it this offends you then I shudder to think about your reaction to Inferno.

> I shouldn't have to explain what is BAD about this symbol.  It is not
> fictional.  It is part of history that is scary.

Yeah, and if the arms go the other way its a pennsylvania dutch hex symbol.  I don't remember which way the arms are supposed to go, though.

It's not that I disagree about your view of Nazis, I just think you're a little (LOT) paranoid.

-Ken
kha...@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu

In <NEVES.94J...@ballard.cs.colorado.edu> ne...@ballard.cs.colorado.edu (NEVES RICHARD K) writes:

>I was VERY disturbed to see this huge swastika in one of the rooms.
>It bothers me 'cause it makes me think the creators of the game have
>some sort of agenda.   That's really nasty and dangerous symbolism,
>don't you guys think.

As others have pointed out, there's far less attractive symbolism in the
game than the NAZI swastika.  Luckily, none of those concerned about it need
worry: I submit you have all mistaken the arrangement of walls on the level
in question for the symbol of the National Socialist German Worker's Party. 
In fact, the symbol they adopted bent the ends of a cross clockwise.

You'll note the ends of the "cross" one sees on the map are bent in the
opposite direction.

I remember hearing/reading somewhere that the symbol we're seeing in Doom is
actually a Hindu holy symbol, but cannot recall the faith it represents.

Inevitably, there will be those who will assert the NAZI association
with the symbol remains.  Just because the orientation of the symbol is
wrong, they'll say, doesn't mean id Software didn't intend for people to
make the association.

>I shouldn't have to explain what is BAD about this symbol.  It is not
>fictional.  It is part of history that is scary.
>
>So, someone tell me.  Is this convenient scenery or something more?
>
>I would be relieved if it was just convenient scenery, but I still
>don't thing it deserves the pixels.

>From a purely utilitarian philosophy, symbolism and imagery elsewhere in the
game must be considered far more evil.  The pentagram, it could be argued,
is even less harmful than the swastika as far as symbolism goes.  Actually, I
found subliminal references to the inverted cross in certain areas far more
disturbing.  And I needn't discuss at any length the imagination of the
authors in determining what to do with corpses.
-- 
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
R. Ross Holder, Jr.                  | Office Phone: (204) 474-6520
The University of Manitoba           | Internet: roh...@cc.umanitoba.ca
News Department, The Manitoban       |           roh...@draco.bison.mb.ca

In article <rrwardCJ...@netcom.com>,
Richard Ward <rrw...@netcom.com> wrote:
>In article <NEVES.94J...@ballard.cs.colorado.edu> ne...@ballard.cs.colorado.edu (NEVES RICHARD K) writes:
>
|>PLEASE!  NOT THIS GOD-DAMNED THREAD AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!
|>We just spent two weeks reading through 'swastika is evil' - 'it is a 
|>BACKWARDS swastika' crap in December!  I don't want to go through it again!
|>
|>I'm gonna say this once, and then I'm gonna ignore this thread.
|>
|>1: Did you notice that the 'swatika' made a convienent (sp?) trap?
|>
|>2: Have you ever noticed that the swastika has been in use by other
|>   cultures LONG before Hitler decided to use it?
|>
|>3: Did you consider that it MIGHT be a refernce to ID's last game?
|>   (Castle Wolfenstein 3D)
|>
|>4: Does it REALLY matter?
|>
|>Personally, I don't care.  I doubt that ID is full of neo-nazi shit head 
|>racists with nothing better to do than hide pro-nazi refernces in a game
|with  >enough demonic refernces to choke a Fundie.
|>
|>Shut up, get a grip, and get a life!

Ummm...  No flame intended...  But just because YOU are tired of arguing
over the symbolic intent of the swastika, doesn't mean some of us who are
just getting here aren't.  I personally found it very interesting that
they DID use the symbol... and yes, I DO believe it made a good trap... 
And, yes, I can see where some people would getangered over ID's possible
use of the nazi-symbol.

Wouldn't it just have been easier and saved some time if you had pressed
'k'? ;)


 /----------------------------------------------------------------------\
<> Stephan K. Zitz                  <>  My mind is my best friend...    <>
<> zi...@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu          <>   And my worst enemy...          <> 
 \======================================================================/

In article <2gpgf1$i...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> kha...@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu writes:
>In article 94Jan8...@ballard.cs.colorado.edu, ne...@ballard.cs.colorado.edu (NEVES RICHARD K) writes:
>   

[junk deleted]

>> fictional.  It is part of history that is scary.
>
>Yeah, and if the arms go the other way its a pennsylvania dutch hex symbol.  I don't remember which way the arms are supposed to go, though.

Actually, the swastika (with the arms going the opposite way from the
Nazis'--you're right) is a very, very old symbol of good luck.  I don't
know if it's exclusively a Pennsylvania Dutch type symbol or what, but it
goes back to biblical times, at least.  An ironic twist that Hitler took
the symbol of good luck and healing and turned it backwards as his icon.

--Michael-- << dmci...@muselab.ac.runet.edu >> <<dmci...@vt.edu>>

In article <NEVES.94J...@ballard.cs.colorado.edu>,
NEVES RICHARD K <ne...@ballard.cs.colorado.edu> wrote:
>
>I was VERY disturbed to see this huge swastika in one of the rooms.
>It bothers me 'cause it makes me think the creators of the game have
>some sort of agenda.   That's really nasty and dangerous symbolism,
>don't you guys think.
>
>I would be relieved if it was just convenient scenery, but I still
>don't thing it deserves the pixels.

I believe that it probably is an "in" reference to Wolfenstein 3-d.
Don't the pentagrams, upside-down crosses, violence, etcetera, bother
you as well? If not, what is different? OK, the DOOM teleporter
project probably doesn't have much to do with Nazism, but about 10
seconds of bad Star Trek physics could justify it. Phobos base is an
evil place, with lots and lots of nasty shit in it. I think that
swastikas are nasty enough shit to qualify as appropriate decor.

andy
-- 
Andrew Hilmer -- hil...@storm.cs.orst.edu

Quis custodiet  |  Who watches    ///  "Freemasons run the country!!"
ipsos custodes  |  the watchmen?  ///  --Smithers' germs, _The Simpsons_

In article <CJDMD...@ruacad.ac.runet.edu> dmci...@ruacad.ac.runet.edu
 (David Michael Mcintyre) writes:
>   Actually, the swastika (with the arms going the opposite way from the
>   Nazis'--you're right) is a very, very old symbol of good luck.

Actually, it's just a very old symbol, used by quite a few cultures
for different things, with the arms going one way or the other.  It
turns up a lot in Native American art, and, as has been previously
posted, in assorted European and Asian cultures.  I've long-since
forgotten the particular justification used by the Nazis for adopting
this common and (formerly) innocuous symbol; something Nordic, I
believe, intended as a symbol of divine approval of the "Aryan" plan
for world domination.

  A good book on cultural anthropology would probably be the best
place to get a solid answer on the "broken cross" question.
--
J Greely (jgr...@synopsys.com)

Would just like to point out that the "Nazi" symbol was used by the
Azteks several centuries before the German party redid and adopted the
symbol.

my $.02

-- 
	-Troy Rutter,  Project Vincent,  Iowa State University
			PSI-Corps Council of Elders

In article <2gobte$b...@sylvester.cc.utexas.edu> zi...@sylvester.cc.utexas.edu (Stephan K. Zitz) writes:
>In article <albertwC...@netcom.com>,
>The Feddie Punk of Solomon <alb...@netcom.com> wrote:
>|In article <NEVES.94J...@ballard.cs.colorado.edu>
>ne...@ballard.cs.colorado.edu (NEVES RICHARD K) writes: >>
>|>I was VERY disturbed to see this huge swastika in one of the rooms.
>|>It bothers me 'cause it makes me think the creators of the game have
>|>some sort of agenda.   That's really nasty and dangerous symbolism,
>|>don't you guys think.
`
>However...  Just because the swastika shape is used, doesn't automatically
>insinuate the shape is symbolizing the nazi icon...

Yeah, it certainly doesn't mean it's the nazi icon.  Because it ISN'T!
the one in the game goes
----+   |                                       |   +----
    |   |    like this      and the nazi one    |   |
+---+---+                   goes like this      +---+---+
|   |	                                            |   |
|   +----                                       ----+   | 

So you can just end your little debate right there hmmmm?

BTW the other swastika, the one in the game is representative of some indian
tribe somewhere which is wherer the nazis actually got the idea from to 
make their own from but my details on this aspect are sketchy.

Point is, it's not a nazi swastika.

So quit arguing about it.

The programmers are probably laughing at all of you right now becuase they
certainly knew this and thought they'd have a little fun with the politically
correct of you out there.  

Cheers!

dou...@gaul.csd.uwo.ca (Russ Doucet) writes:

>BTW the other swastika, the one in the game is representative of some indian
>tribe somewhere which is wherer the nazis actually got the idea from to 
>make their own from but my details on this aspect are sketchy.

Actually, the clockwise swastika, the one used by the Nazis, and still in use
by other fools who represent similar views, was an old tribal Germanic symbol
for good luck.  Fortunately for civilization, it didn't work for the Nazis. :)

jacob rose..........................@csugrad.cs.vt.edu

e   v   o   l   u   t   i   o   n    i  s    b   e   a   u   t   i   f   u   l

224 payne hall virginia tech blacksburg virginia 24060-0008.......703/232-5955

lu...@mindvox.phantom.com (Luke Robinson) writes:

>ne...@ballard.cs.colorado.edu (NEVES RICHARD K) writes:

>> 
>> I just grabbed the shareware version of doom and played it for the
>> first time today.   
>> 
>> I was VERY disturbed to see this huge swastika in one of the rooms.
>> It bothers me 'cause it makes me think the creators of the game have
>> some sort of agenda.   That's really nasty and dangerous symbolism,
>> don't you guys think.

Well, if you can live blatantly demonic/satanic imagery - pentagrams,
skulls with horns, twitching impaled corpses, throbbing hearts
on pedestals, piles of heads, suspended corpses, impaled/crucified people,
I think you can live with a single swastika.

The Nazis - although natty dressers - weren't a terribly nice lot.  But
id obviously isn't too worried about censorship - in any form.  Take
it or leave it, I guess.

Roddi

ja...@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Jacob Rose) writes:

>dou...@gaul.csd.uwo.ca (Russ Doucet) writes:

>>BTW the other swastika, the one in the game is representative of some i
dian
>>tribe somewhere which is wherer the nazis actually got the idea from to

>>make their own from but my details on this aspect are sketchy.

>Actually, the clockwise swastika, the one used by the Nazis, and still i
 use
>by other fools who represent similar views, was an old tribal Germanic s
mbol
>for good luck.  Fortunately for civilization, it didn't work for the Naz
s. :)

>jacob rose.............................................jaker@csugrad.cs.
t.edu

>e   v   o   l   u   t   i   o   n    i  s    b   e   a   u   t   i   f  
u   l

>224 payne hall virginia tech blacksburg virginia 24060-0008.......703/23
-5955
And the swastika the other way is used by Hindus as a sign for good luck
also.

In article <albertwC...@netcom.com> alb...@netcom.com (The Feddie Punk of Solomon) writes:
>In article <NEVES.94J...@ballard.cs.colorado.edu> ne...@ballard.cs.colorado.edu (NEVES RICHARD K) writes:
>>
>>I just grabbed the shareware version of doom and played it for the
>>first time today.   
>>
>>I was VERY disturbed to see this huge swastika in one of the rooms.
>>It bothers me 'cause it makes me think the creators of the game have
>>some sort of agenda.   That's really nasty and dangerous symbolism,
>>don't you guys think.
>
>Wolfenstein 3D had swastika's up the wazoo, but no one said a word.  
>What's with the big bruhaha now?


Well, in Wolfenstein 3D you were inside *enemy* buildings (nazis, of course)
but in Doom you're strolling around in once-friendly environment ie. all
the architectural design is made by *your* side.  

-- 
                 -jhk- 
   

NEVES RICHARD K (ne...@ballard.cs.colorado.edu) wrote:

: I was VERY disturbed to see this huge swastika in one of the rooms.
: It bothers me 'cause it makes me think the creators of the game have
: some sort of agenda.   That's really nasty and dangerous symbolism,
: don't you guys think.

 You're playing a game, where you blow people into fine mists, and you 
worry about a SWASTIKA! :P
 
 Ain't 'cha never heard of Wolfenstien 3D?
 
 It's like the referances to 'Klatu Verata Nictu' in Army of Darkness, 
and Toys..., a subtle acknoledgement of an earlier, ground breaking work.


-- 
   |||          Test .sig file.............................
   O O ======~' this file is named '.sig'
    ^      \||  MUDS! -> VR for people who prefer books to movies!
    O       ||  "but i've shaved my chest, just in case." - Slluuurrp

>ne...@ballard.cs.colorado.edu (NEVES RICHARD K) writes:
>
>> 
>> I just grabbed the shareware version of doom and played it for the
>> first time today.   
>> 
>> I was VERY disturbed to see this huge swastika in one of the rooms.
>> It bothers me 'cause it makes me think the creators of the game have
>> some sort of agenda.   That's really nasty and dangerous symbolism,
>> don't you guys think.
>> 

No I don't.  The Swastika has been known for thousands of years as a
symbol of peace.  Just because a bunch of assholes in Germany decided to use
it for ten years or so earlier this century is no reason to ban its use.  Why
don't you think of it's traditional symbolism rather than its recent meaning?

This sort of attitude is what gets bad symbolism entrenched in the first place.

I personally rather like the pentagram as a shape too.  Doesn't mean I'm a
satanist though.

Tim.


-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Cutts: tj...@cus.cam.ac.uk               | Refs 7.2 the academic reference
CRC Mammalian Cell DNA Repair Research Group | database for Windows 3.1 is now
Please support the Cancer Research Campaign! | on ftp.cica.indiana.edu

In article <1994Jan10.0...@julian.uwo.ca> dou...@gaul.csd.uwo.ca (Russ Doucet) writes:
>In article <2gobte$b...@sylvester.cc.utexas.edu> zi...@sylvester.cc.utexas.edu (Stephan K. Zitz) writes:
>>In article <albertwC...@netcom.com>,
>>The Feddie Punk of Solomon <alb...@netcom.com> wrote:
>>|In article <NEVES.94J...@ballard.cs.colorado.edu>
>>ne...@ballard.cs.colorado.edu (NEVES RICHARD K) writes: >>
>>|>I was VERY disturbed to see this huge swastika in one of the rooms.
>>|>It bothers me 'cause it makes me think the creators of the game have
>>|>some sort of agenda.   That's really nasty and dangerous symbolism,
>>|>don't you guys think.
>`
>>However...  Just because the swastika shape is used, doesn't automatically
>>insinuate the shape is symbolizing the nazi icon...
>
>Yeah, it certainly doesn't mean it's the nazi icon.  Because it ISN'T!
>the one in the game goes
>----+   |                                       |   +----
>    |   |    like this      and the nazi one    |   |
>+---+---+                   goes like this      +---+---+
>|   |	                                            |   |
>|   +----                                       ----+   | 
>
>So you can just end your little debate right there hmmmm?
>
>BTW the other swastika, the one in the game is representative of some indian
>tribe somewhere which is wherer the nazis actually got the idea from to 
>make their own from but my details on this aspect are sketchy.

 I can't help feeling that iD have boobed slightly here... the Nazi swastika
was a symbol of good luck and Christianity (the gammadian cross) - you'll
find it in churches in many parts of central Europe. The other swastika, the
suvastika, was a symbol of the Hindu blood-goddess Kali, evil and black magic
(and still is, in India)! So either it's a Nazi symbol or an evil symbol or
both... Come to think of it, if it is indeed a suvastika, then wouldn't that
be logical in a game about evil forces from hell, pentagrams and all?

 Anyway, isn't it a bit pedantic to complain about this in a game as full of
gore as Doom? It's rather like complaining about the picture quality in
hard-core porn films...

		-----------------------------------------
		  Chris Owen  -  tr9...@black.ox.ac.uk
		-----------------------------------------

In <1994Jan13.1...@infodev.cam.ac.uk> tj...@mbfs.bio.cam.ac.uk (Tim Cutts) writes:

>>ne...@ballard.cs.colorado.edu (NEVES RICHARD K) writes:
>>
>>> 
>>> I just grabbed the shareware version of doom and played it for the
>>> first time today.   
>>> 
>>> I was VERY disturbed to see this huge swastika in one of the rooms.
>>> It bothers me 'cause it makes me think the creators of the game have
>>> some sort of agenda.   That's really nasty and dangerous symbolism,
>>> don't you guys think.
>>> 

>No I don't.  The Swastika has been known for thousands of years as a
>symbol of peace.  Just because a bunch of assholes in Germany decided to use
>it for ten years or so earlier this century is no reason to ban its use.  Why
>don't you think of it's traditional symbolism rather than its recent meaning?

>This sort of attitude is what gets bad symbolism entrenched in the first place.

Hear, hear. If you go to a temple in India, you are bound to see quite
a lot of swastikas around (clockwise or counterclockwise, I don't know).
They were there loooong before anybody had even heard of fascists.

And, as someone pointed out, the Finns use the swastika as well. To be
more precise, it is the insignia of the Finnish Air Force. Its use began
in 1918, when Swedish count von Rosen donated the FAF their first plane.
The count's personal lucky sign was the swastika (pointing the other
way as the Nazi swastika), and so it was used in all the subsequent
planes as well. The use of the swastika was forbidden from FAF in the
peace negotiations after WWII.

Anxiously awaiting the registered version, Juhana

-- 
Juhana Britschgi           I  Juhana.B...@Helsinki.FI
Dept. of Computer Science  I  brit...@cc.helsinki.fi
University of Helsinki     I  "Slippin' rippin' dang fang rotten zarg barg-a-
Finland                    I   ding-dong!"    - Calvin and Hobbes

In article <2h0l0o$t...@tukki.cc.jyu.fi>, joh...@network.cc.jyu.fi (Jonne Henrikki Kolima) writes:
>In article <albertwC...@netcom.com> alb...@netcom.com (The Feddie Punk of Solomon) writes:
>>In article <NEVES.94J...@ballard.cs.colorado.edu> ne...@ballard.cs.colorado.edu (NEVES RICHARD K) writes:
>>>
>>>I just grabbed the shareware version of doom and played it for the
>>>first time today.   
>>>
>>>I was VERY disturbed to see this huge swastika in one of the rooms.
>>>It bothers me 'cause it makes me think the creators of the game have
>>>some sort of agenda.   That's really nasty and dangerous symbolism,
>>>don't you guys think.
>>
>>Wolfenstein 3D had swastika's up the wazoo, but no one said a word.  
>>What's with the big bruhaha now?
>
>
>Well, in Wolfenstein 3D you were inside *enemy* buildings (nazis, of course)
>but in Doom you're strolling around in once-friendly environment ie. all
>the architectural design is made by *your* side. 

Well, maybe they liked the mystic sign from India (where the swastika was
derived from) and wanted to incorporate it into their ariechecture....

Who knows...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jared Evans    Computer Engineering           Rochester Institute of Technology 
INTERNET:jne5873@ritvax.isc.rit.edu-------------------------------->Core dumped
To err is human - and to blame it on a computer is even more so.
The best way to accelerate a Macintosh is 9.8 m/s^2
IBM seems to believe that when they urinate in something,it improves the flavor 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Send all a.holes and flames to /dev/null       INTERNET:THE UNDISCOVERED COUNTRY

<stuff deleted>
: Someone ought to show this guy a copy of Wolfenstein 3D... he'd probably
: have a heart attack.

: I also think it's funny that random acts of violence with pentagrams and
: satannic symbols are okay, but swastikas are right out.

: Rich:  Get a life.  It's just a game.  Get over it.

: Bruce

: -- 
Hello!  I would expect swastikas, etc. in a German castle during World 
War II.  I wouldn't expect them on a base on Mars.

Wyan Jow

ez00...@othello.ucdavis.edu (Wyan Jow) writes:
>: I also think it's funny that random acts of violence with pentagrams and
>: satannic symbols are okay, but swastikas are right out.
>: Rich:  Get a life.  It's just a game.  Get over it.

>Hello!  I would expect swastikas, etc. in a German castle during World 
>War II.  I wouldn't expect them on a base on Mars.

Why no, but we would expect possessed humans, fireball throwing imps,
minotaurs, shade beasts, floating fire breathing heads, and all the
rest.  Not to mention a gate to hell.  As far as we know, those are
native to Mars.
-- 
Wow, that's a great BASS!