🚀 go-pugleaf

K. Laisathit wrote:
> 
> Okay, I admit this is yet another random rant, but I was wondering
> if other feel the same way as I do. Here we go:
> 
> Shrine, Goat shrine and Caldron
> -------------------------------

<snip>

> The bottom line, Blizzard, provide us with an incentive to hit
> random shrine or remove it altogether. At present, they are
> merely decorative elements of the game anyway. A decorative
> elements that can devastate your character, if you happen to hit
> it by accident.

     Random shrines are a crapshoot. If you use them then you take your
chances. The incentive is that you MIGHT get a good effect out of them.
If you would rather not take the risk then you do not have to. The
incentive is already there, though.

> Difficulty level, Random Items, Griswold's Items
> ------------------------------------------------

<snip>

> Again, what's the point of having Griswold, if you'll never buy
> stuff from him? That's a somewhat strong statement, I admit.
> But IMHO it's not too far from the truth. I can understand the
> randomness of the item generation routine, but shouldn't it be
> able to generate stuff that a player may wish to buy? As is, that
> isn't very likely. An average 5k worth of equipment is ok for
> level 10-15, but not for level 25+.

     For what it's worth, I have never purchased anything of great value
from Griswold. He has some nice stuff for low level characters but you
will soon be finding much better items in the dungeon anyway. Everything
my warrior uses now has been found in the lower levels of the dungeons
in Nightmare mode. I mostly use Griswold to sell my stuff to and to fix
my equipment.

> Finally, there is a minor issue about items generated in
> nightmare and hell. From various sources and my own experience,
> there is no appreciable difference among items found on
> similar level across three difficulty settings! Given that it's
> so much more difficult in nightmare and hell than in normal mode,
> shouldn't the reward reflect this reality? Certainly, the experience
> point is important, but experienced players have been known to
> start a normal game for an expressed reason to hunt for treasures.

     Good point. After completing Hell/Hell for the first time I was
upset to find that no items were dropped that I hadn't seen before. I
didn't expect Rings of Zodiac to be falling out of the sky but come on!
Still, it is important to understand that the randomness of the game
will make things like that possible. But it would have been nice...


Gordon Wilson
gkwi...@ix.netcom.com
IronWill on battle.net and KALI

In article <331B3B...@ix.netcom.com>,
Gordon K Wilson  <gkwi...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>> The bottom line, Blizzard, provide us with an incentive to hit
>> random shrine or remove it altogether. At present, they are
>> merely decorative elements of the game anyway. A decorative
>> elements that can devastate your character, if you happen to hit
>> it by accident.
>
>     Random shrines are a crapshoot. If you use them then you take your
>chances. The incentive is that you MIGHT get a good effect out of them.
>If you would rather not take the risk then you do not have to. The
>incentive is already there, though.

My point was, there was no good effect to speak of, even if there is
(enchanted shrine), the potential drawbacks more than offset the
potential gains. So, there is *no* incentive whatsoever to hit
any of the random shrine. When was the last time you see a high-level
player visited a random shrine? If a random element exists in high
difficulty game shouldn't its effect appeal to high level character
as well as to a low level one? If it's useless, what is it doing in
Hell (i.e., cauldron).

I like taking chances, but not when the odds are overwhelmingly
against me. As it is, the odds are more than overwhelming. Remember,
there is also a possibility that someone may *accidentally* hit
the random shrine and suffer the adversity. That's not exactly what
I call a fair game.


>> Again, what's the point of having Griswold, if you'll never buy
>> stuff from him? That's a somewhat strong statement, I admit.
[sniped]
>
>     For what it's worth, I have never purchased anything of great value
>from Griswold. He has some nice stuff for low level characters but you
>will soon be finding much better items in the dungeon anyway. Everything
>my warrior uses now has been found in the lower levels of the dungeons
>in Nightmare mode. I mostly use Griswold to sell my stuff to and to fix
>my equipment.

That's my point. If Griswold couldn't sell anything worth having, why
have him sell anything at all? How about we make Griswold sell stuff
until a player reaches Hell, then make him stop selling. He can keep
buying though. Now, I'm being sarcastic. But that's how I feel.

>     Good point. After completing Hell/Hell for the first time I was
>upset to find that no items were dropped that I hadn't seen before. I
>didn't expect Rings of Zodiac to be falling out of the sky but come on!
>Still, it is important to understand that the randomness of the game
>will make things like that possible. But it would have been nice...

There is nothing to stop Blizzard from altering the odds of rolling
more favorable outcomes in Hell/Hell for item generation routines.
I think it's an oversight more than anything else. Perhaps, Blizzard
didn't think that too many people will play Hell/Hell.

Also, there are normal magical items that cannot be found in any game,
like (modifier) armor/weapon of zodiac or king's bow of sthg. It will
be nice if those will show up in a Hell/Hell game just to reward players
for taking the chance of going to that level of difficulty. Finally,
there is a matter of killing Diablo without being rewarded materially
besides watching the end movie, that is. These days, when I'm doing
treasure hunting, I'll just go to Lazarus and kill all boss monsters.
It seems that lvl 15 always has at least 4 bosses (Lazarus, Bloodlust,
Red Vex and one other I don't remember). Level 16 onlys has one.

Later...
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
K I R A T I  L A I S A T H I T                    kir...@u.washington.edu

> That's my point. If Griswold couldn't sell anything worth having, why
> have him sell anything at all? How about we make Griswold sell stuff
> until a player reaches Hell, then make him stop selling. He can keep
> buying though. Now, I'm being sarcastic. But that's how I feel.
> 

	Don't quote me on this, but I suspect that Griswold's offerings 
actually do get better as your level improves and you play more 
difficult zones.  I bought a Master's Sword from him the other day, 
which was quite a bit better than the sword I'd been using.  (Since I 
don't cheat or accept duplicated items, I've chosen to do without the 
now dirt-cheap King's Sword of Haste... so this is really a valuable 
find.)
	I know for a fact that Adria only sells elixirs after you've 
been roughing it in at least normal/hell, or low levels of nightmare... 
so why shouldn't it be true of Griswold?  I'm only level 31, so who 
knows what he'll be offering when I turn 40?
	Have to agree about random shrines... never touch the stuff.  
The good ones have nothing to offer me that I can't get with elixirs, 
books, and cold hard ca$h... while the bad ones (lowering my mana 
points) are permanent and unrecoverable.  It seems AWFULLY unfair that 
Blizzard would intentionally ruin your character this way without giving 
fair warning about it.  (Who figured out what the shrines did before 
downloading a list off the web?)
-- 
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.  Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man."
                                -- George Bernard Shaw

Russell can be heckled at
        http://sdcc8.ucsd.edu/~rglasser

At level 41, Griswold has begun offering a few nice things. I bought an
Awesome Shield of the Tiger from him a few days ago (ac 15, +145% armor and
+43 hp, $60,000). I seem to remember him offering me some awesom plate of
sorcery, but I think the base ac was too low. Adria recently offered me an
Emerald Staff of Fireball (resist all 45%, I think like $90,000). I
recently bought a Strange Bow of Thunder (around $60,000), but I might have
gotten that from Wirt. Griswold frequently offers me obsidian things (no
ring or amulets), including plate, but nothing i could really use. He also
offered me a King's Sword of Haste, but it was the two-handed version so I
passed. The annoying thing is that most of the stuff he offers me is still
not very good. Maybe once out of every  20 games does he offers something
interesting. 

Russell Glasser <rgla...@penning.lanl.gov> wrote in article
<331CE7...@penning.lanl.gov>...
> > That's my point. If Griswold couldn't sell anything worth having, why
> > have him sell anything at all? How about we make Griswold sell stuff
> > until a player reaches Hell, then make him stop selling. He can keep
> > buying though. Now, I'm being sarcastic. But that's how I feel.
> > 
> 
> 	Don't quote me on this, but I suspect that Griswold's offerings 
> actually do get better as your level improves and you play more 
> difficult zones.  I bought a Master's Sword from him the other day, 
> which was quite a bit better than the sword I'd been using.  (Since I 
> don't cheat or accept duplicated items, I've chosen to do without the 
> now dirt-cheap King's Sword of Haste... so this is really a valuable 
> find.)
> 	I know for a fact that Adria only sells elixirs after you've 
> been roughing it in at least normal/hell, or low levels of nightmare... 
> so why shouldn't it be true of Griswold?  I'm only level 31, so who 
> knows what he'll be offering when I turn 40?
> 	Have to agree about random shrines... never touch the stuff.  
> The good ones have nothing to offer me that I can't get with elixirs, 
> books, and cold hard ca$h... while the bad ones (lowering my mana 
> points) are permanent and unrecoverable.  It seems AWFULLY unfair that 
> Blizzard would intentionally ruin your character this way without giving 
> fair warning about it.  (Who figured out what the shrines did before 
> downloading a list off the web?)
> -- 
> "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
> persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.  Therefore all
> progress depends on the unreasonable man."
>                                 -- George Bernard Shaw
> 
> Russell can be heckled at
>         http://sdcc8.ucsd.edu/~rglasser
> 

In article <331CE7...@penning.lanl.gov>,
Russell Glasser  <rgla...@penning.lanl.gov> wrote:
>> That's my point. If Griswold couldn't sell anything worth having, why
>> have him sell anything at all? How about we make Griswold sell stuff
>> until a player reaches Hell, then make him stop selling. He can keep
>> buying though. Now, I'm being sarcastic. But that's how I feel.
>> 
>
>	Don't quote me on this, but I suspect that Griswold's offerings 
>actually do get better as your level improves and you play more 
>difficult zones.  I bought a Master's Sword from him the other day, 
>which was quite a bit better than the sword I'd been using.  (Since I 
>don't cheat or accept duplicated items, I've chosen to do without the 
>now dirt-cheap King's Sword of Haste... so this is really a valuable 
>find.)
>	I know for a fact that Adria only sells elixirs after you've 
>been roughing it in at least normal/hell, or low levels of nightmare... 
>so why shouldn't it be true of Griswold?  I'm only level 31, so who 
>knows what he'll be offering when I turn 40?
>	Have to agree about random shrines... never touch the stuff.  
>The good ones have nothing to offer me that I can't get with elixirs, 
>books, and cold hard ca$h... while the bad ones (lowering my mana 
>points) are permanent and unrecoverable.  It seems AWFULLY unfair that 
>Blizzard would intentionally ruin your character this way without giving 
>fair warning about it.  (Who figured out what the shrines did before 
>downloading a list off the web?)
>-- 
>"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
>persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.  Therefore all
>progress depends on the unreasonable man."
>                                -- George Bernard Shaw
>
>Russell can be heckled at
>        http://sdcc8.ucsd.edu/~rglasser


-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
K I R A T I  L A I S A T H I T                    kir...@u.washington.edu

Sorry, I screwed up the first time, forgot to save before
posting the message.

In article <5fki6j$1k...@nntp2.u.washington.edu>,
K. Laisathit <kir...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>>
>>	Don't quote me on this, but I suspect that Griswold's offerings 
>>actually do get better as your level improves and you play more 
>>difficult zones.  I bought a Master's Sword from him the other day, 
>>which was quite a bit better than the sword I'd been using.  (Since I 
>>don't cheat or accept duplicated items, I've chosen to do without the 
>>now dirt-cheap King's Sword of Haste... so this is really a valuable 
>>find.)

Got nothing to do with zone, only the level of the player.

>>	I know for a fact that Adria only sells elixirs after you've 
>>been roughing it in at least normal/hell, or low levels of nightmare... 
>>so why shouldn't it be true of Griswold?  I'm only level 31, so who 
>>knows what he'll be offering when I turn 40?

Adria starts selling elixir after level 26, again nothing to do with
level of dungeon or difficulty.

>>	Have to agree about random shrines... never touch the stuff.  
>>The good ones have nothing to offer me that I can't get with elixirs, 
>>books, and cold hard ca$h... while the bad ones (lowering my mana 
>>points) are permanent and unrecoverable.  It seems AWFULLY unfair that 
>>Blizzard would intentionally ruin your character this way without giving 
>>fair warning about it.  (Who figured out what the shrines did before 
>>downloading a list off the web?)

Well, even if a person knows the list beforehand, I doubt that a low
level char newbie will be able to logically arive at the conclusion
that random shrine is a lose-lose proposition. As you say, with the
exception of the Enchanted shrine, the other shrines confer benefits
than can be safely replicated using books or elixir. However, that's
not very obvious when you start out. I myself fell into that trap. I
have abandoned my first char (the sorcerer) because he visited too
many random shrines.

Later...
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
K I R A T I  L A I S A T H I T                    kir...@u.washington.edu

Russell Glasser <rgla...@penning.lanl.gov> wrote in article
<331CE7...@penning.lanl.gov>...
> > That's my point. If Griswold couldn't sell anything worth having, why
> > have him sell anything at all? How about we make Griswold sell stuff
> > until a player reaches Hell, then make him stop selling. He can keep
> > buying though. Now, I'm being sarcastic. But that's how I feel.
> > 
> 

Griswold does indeed sell pretty good stuff (its all random).  Two days
ago, I bought a King's Sword of Blood from him!  Back when money cheats
used to work, I was playing on Battle.Net in a public room.  Some guy kept
using a money cheat over & over again while I was down in Hell with other
people.  We'd come up to get potions and there was all kinds of cool
equipment scattered all over the place. He'd keep buying from Gris and
throw it down if he didn't want it.

Desi Richards wrote:
> 
> Forget Griswold, Wirt the peg-legged boy sells the primo stuff. he's
> usually a few levels better than Griswold's choices, but he only
> provides one item at a time...
> 

And Wirt takes 2/3 asking price, if that's all you have, + the 50 coin
looky fee.

Mike

On Fri, 07 Mar 1997 17:04:32 GMT, akcobra@!cris.com wrote:

=>I'm a level 37 Warrior, and Griz offered me my first King's sword the
=>other day (a Kings Sword of Gore) just the other day in a hell mode
=>game.  I've been through hell dozens of times on Normal and Nightmare,
=>and I've never seen anything-of-the-zodiac or Godly anything (excpet a
=>Godly shield which I bought from Wirt).  I think there's also a built
=>in "luck" statistic that you don't see that controls your probability
=>of finding rare items.  I've got a buddy who is 6 levels lower than
=>me, and he's already bought 2 kings swords of speed from Griz (gave
=>one to me :) ), found two zodiac amulets and a zodiac ring, and
=>found/been offered numerous blessed/saintly/holy plates of armor.  I
=>don't know what our respective "luck" statistics are, but I think his
=>must be up close to 100% and mine must be dipping into the negatives
=><g>.
=>
=>Cobra

At level 31 Wirt offered me a Kings sword of haste (not the best one)
Still better: when I was level 6 Wirt had a amulet of the zodiac +20
for sale (more than 100K gold) and at level 10 a zodiac +19 but I had
not enough money!
Now I'm level 32 and haven't seen a zodiac till then ... IF I only had
known then what I know now about zodiac items

Still in search and chilling by every 'ping', BDI


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