🚀 go-pugleaf

On Wed, 27 Jun 2018 06:55:33 +0100, AndyW wrote:

> I was the same with an Acorn Atom, it also could be overclocked to 2MHz
> by the addition of a physical switch, some wires and careful soldering
> and a capacitor or two.

And the PC/XT motherboard (I managed to buy a PC Portable brand new for a 
bargain price).

Solder one jumper on the motherboard (I actually fitted a proper header 
and jumper). Insert a 74LS158 in the socket on the motherboard. Then 
replace the second two rows of 64kb chips with 256kb chips.

Result: 640kB actually on the motherboard - no extra wait states.

-- 
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

On Wed, 27 Jun 2018, AndyW wrote:


> I was the same with an Acorn Atom, it also could be overclocked to 2MHz by 
> the addition of a physical switch, some wires and careful soldering and a 
> capacitor or two.
> I still have it and a second one I bought on impulse on ebay but never used.
> ...and yes Nostalgia is funny. I loved my Atom and loved playing games and 
> programming it (with a built-in assembler you could do a lot with a few kB) 
> But I fired it up recently and it is not a good experience.
>
In the nineties, and early 2000s, I was finding lots of neat old 
computers.  Well, someone gave me their old Apple II, but then I got a 
IIGS, an Amiga 500 and there were certainly others I could have bought 
cheap, like that Macintosh II or the Mac SE/30.  Someone gave me a pair of 
Sun 3/50s, but it would have cost me to get the needed peripherals to put 
them in operation.

These were all computers I lusted after in some way when they were new. 
But I never did anything with the Apple II, I had enough nostalgia to keep 
it around but I didn't feel like spending the time to get good at it, and 
even then it wouldn't be like a recent computer.  It's the same with the 
others, probably more so because they were less familiar.

I used a Radio Shack Color Computer (II and then later a III) 
until late 1993, when I was given a broken Mac Plus (the connector to the 
deflection coils was intermintent).  So I stuck with the CoCo longer than 
many.  I would have liked to stick with Microware OS-9, but the optinos 
were too expensive, it was Radio Shack that made that OS cheap.  The Mac 
Plus was kind of a step backwards, since I had to get a hard drive to use 
it, and while it was more advanced, the resources went into the graphics, 
so it wasn't so much faster than my previous computer, and didn't really 
do anything that the CoCo couldn't, though finally I had a "mainstream" 
computer, albeit behind the times.

I used "older computers" because that's what I could afford or scrounge 
up.  I miss the days when there was a variety of computer types and 
operating systems, but I don't want to go back.  I finally got a computer 
"good enough" to run Linux in mid 2001, it was a long wait, and that 
fulfills my interest in computers as an end in itself.  I don't need to 
run Linux, or a quad core computer running at 3.4GHz with 8gigs of ram, 
but I had the money two years ago and moved up because I could.

39 years ago, when I got my first "home computer", it was an end in itself,
in part because with only 1K of RAM I couldn't use it for anything much in 
practical terms.  So I spent time exploring computers.  It wasn't until 
1984 and my third computer that I had enough of a system to actually do 
things, which meant writing.  My needs are pretty simple, but I like 
running the full system with Linux because it costs me nothing in terms of 
learning.

   Michael

AndyW <An...@nojunqmail.com> writes:

> I think a lot of people who get misty eyed over old computers have never 
> tried to go back and use them.
>
> I used to use a pr1me system at university and I was in awe of it.
> I had the chance to use one a few years ago and it is rubbish. Similarly 
> I dug out an old CP/M machine and it is not at all as much fun how I 
> remembered it.

I got my first computer, an Osborne I, in '87.  With a background in
hard science but only the briefest encounter with computers (Fortran,
IBM 1620, 1964), I was tickled to be able to write my own programs in
BASIC, Z80 assembler. and C.  Spent a year in larval mode.

> I have been spoiled by GHz of speed, GB of memory, TB of disk space and 
> Mega-mega pixels of screen resolutions.
> Compilation time of a few seconds is not the same as setting the program 
> to compile and popping off to the pub.

Just so.  But I'm really happy that I spent 5 years with Osbornes.  I
learned how computers work deep inside on a simple platform and with
more detailed documentation readily available than today. I would
never have grovelled through the complexity of the modern CPU,
compilers, USB details, memory management etc. etc. if I'd started
with what I now use every day -- GNU-Linux, X, P4 or newer CPU etc. --
and would remain irritated overmy own ignorance.

> Nostalgia is a lovely country until you go there and visit.

Well, I do occasionally use an emulator to play Civ I under MS-DOS 5.
I guess that qualifies as "visit".

-- 
Mike Spencer                  Nova Scotia, Canada

On Wednesday, June 27, 2018 at 4:11:23 AM UTC-4, AndyW wrote:
> On 27/06/2018 08:10, maus wrote:
> > On 2018-06-27, AndyW <An...@nojunqmail.com> wrote:
> >> On 26/06/2018 20:55, Scott wrote:
> >>> On Tue, 26 Jun 2018 11:31:32 +0100, Gareth's Downstairs Computer
> >>> <headstone255.but.n...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Yankland and its politics is increasingly irrelevant on
> >>>> a day-to-day basis to the rest of the world (Trump and
> >>>> Clinton the only candidates????? ), so is anyone here
> >>>> interested in computers?
> >>>
> >>> Cleaning out my shed, I just unearthed some boxes of my old Tandy
> >> and a capacitor or two.
> >> I still have it and a second one I bought on impulse on ebay but never used.
> >> ...and yes Nostalgia is funny. I loved my Atom and loved playing games
> >> and programming it (with a built-in assembler you could do a lot with a
> >> few kB) But I fired it up recently and it is not a good experience.
> >>
> > 
> > 
> > You can never go home!
> 
> 
> I think a lot of people who get misty eyed over old computers have never 
> tried to go back and use them.
> I used to use a pr1me system at university and I was in awe of it.
> I had the chance to use one a few years ago and it is rubbish. Similarly 
> I dug out an old CP/M machine and it is not at all as much fun how I 
> remembered it.
> 
> I have been spoiled by GHz of speed, GB of memory, TB of disk space and 
> Mega-mega pixels of screen resolutions.
> Compilation time of a few seconds is not the same as setting the program 
> to compile and popping off to the pub.
> 
> Nostalgia is a lovely country until you go there and visit.

I think a lot of nostalgia is based on fond memories of our
youth or days gone by, generally not a longing to actually
regularly use old technology.  For instance, I miss working
with punched-card equipment, but would not want to do it
every day.  I would not want to have to key in a program
on an 029; I'm too spoiled by terminals.

However, in some cases people do miss a simpler time where
things seemed less confused and goals more clearly defined.

In any event, in my humble opinion, most folks working in
computers aren't very nostalgic.

There are things to be nostalgic for. When a Video Display Terminal cost $15,000, then, strange to relate, it 
had a better quality keyboard than today's computers usually do.

On 07/01/18 21:58, Quadibloc wrote:
> There are things to be nostalgic for. When a Video Display Terminal cost $15,000, then, strange to relate, it
> had a better quality keyboard than today's computers usually do.

Agreed, the best ones had a hall effect sensor under every
key and associated magnet. Cherry iirc and still have one
of those removed from a Honeywell batch terminal decades
ago. Of course, let's not forget the first IBM PC's and
their clicky over center sping action. Used to love those.

Everything was better engineered years ago, but is that a
sign of advancing years, or just that the world is full of
crap product these days ?...

Chris

In article <phbieo$1noi$1...@gioia.aioe.org>,
Chris  <xxx.sys...@gfsys.co.uk> wrote:
>ago. Of course, let's not forget the first IBM PC's and
>their clicky over center sping action. Used to love those.

IBM sold the design to these guys.  The keyboards aren't cheap but
they're good.

https://www.pckeyboard.com/

-- 
Regards,
John Levine, jo...@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

On Sun, 1 Jul 2018 22:22:00 -0000 (UTC), John Levine <jo...@taugh.com>
wrote:

>In article <phbieo$1noi$1...@gioia.aioe.org>,
>Chris  <xxx.sys...@gfsys.co.uk> wrote:
>>ago. Of course, let's not forget the first IBM PC's and
>>their clicky over center sping action. Used to love those.
>
>IBM sold the design to these guys.  The keyboards aren't cheap but
>they're good.
>
>https://www.pckeyboard.com/

It's not just the design.  They _are_ the IBM keyboard operation, that
was spun off as part of Lexmark and then Lexmark spun it off in turn.

On Sun, 01 Jul 2018 22:22:00 +0000, John Levine wrote:

> In article <phbieo$1noi$1...@gioia.aioe.org>,
> Chris  <xxx.sys...@gfsys.co.uk> wrote:
>>ago. Of course, let's not forget the first IBM PC's and their clicky
>>over center sping action. Used to love those.
> 
> IBM sold the design to these guys.  The keyboards aren't cheap but
> they're good.
> 
> https://www.pckeyboard.com/

I bought an IBM one in 1989, and it was in daily use. Still is - I'm 
typing this on it!

-- 
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

On Sun, 1 Jul 2018, Quadibloc wrote:

> There are things to be nostalgic for. When a Video Display Terminal cost 
> $15,000, then, strange to relate, it had a better quality keyboard than 
> today's computers usually do.
>
That's a point.  My OSI Superboard II had a keyboard on board, and it was 
a proper keyboard.  The Radio Shack Model 100 portable had a good keyboard 
too.  Not all did, the Atari 400 and the Radio Shack COlor Computer (even 
the III model wasn't perfect).  But you could also get lots of surplus 
keyboards, and with some work patch them in to replace the "bad" 
keyboards.

I'm not sure I gave it much thought at the time.  Keyboards got even 
cheaper but they got not so great.

   Michael

On 07/01/18 23:55, Bob Eager wrote:

>
> I bought an IBM one in 1989, and it was in daily use. Still is - I'm
> typing this on it!
>

No concept of *design life* or planned obsolescence back then. Still
have a nos IBM keyboard, says TPE on the front badge, but has a 9
pin D on the cable and a sheet saying only for use on the IBM PC-AT.
 From memory, the AT keyboards had a din plug on the cable, but
maybe mistaken...

Chris

On Mon, 02 Jul 2018 00:26:56 +0100, Chris wrote:

> On 07/01/18 23:55, Bob Eager wrote:
> 
> 
>> I bought an IBM one in 1989, and it was in daily use. Still is - I'm
>> typing this on it!
>>
>>
> No concept of *design life* or planned obsolescence back then. Still
> have a nos IBM keyboard, says TPE on the front badge, but has a 9 pin D
> on the cable and a sheet saying only for use on the IBM PC-AT.
>  From memory, the AT keyboards had a din plug on the cable, but
> maybe mistaken...

No, you are correct. The AT (as with the XT and the PC) had a 5 pin DIN 
plug. I still have some DIN to PS/2 adaptors.

The keyboard cost £130, but that's less than 50p a year...
-- 
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

On Sun, 1 Jul 2018 19:13:38 -0400, Michael Black <mbl...@pubnix.net>
wrote:

>On Sun, 1 Jul 2018, Quadibloc wrote:
>
>> There are things to be nostalgic for. When a Video Display Terminal cost 
>> $15,000, then, strange to relate, it had a better quality keyboard than 
>> today's computers usually do.
>>
>That's a point.  My OSI Superboard II had a keyboard on board, and it was 
>a proper keyboard.  The Radio Shack Model 100 portable had a good keyboard 
>too.  Not all did, the Atari 400 and the Radio Shack COlor Computer (even 
>the III model wasn't perfect).  But you could also get lots of surplus 
>keyboards, and with some work patch them in to replace the "bad" 
>keyboards.
>
>I'm not sure I gave it much thought at the time.  Keyboards got even 
>cheaper but they got not so great.

And now there's a spectrum of them available.  Right now I'm using a
clicky tactile backlit Logitech that is intended for gamers.  It
wasn't cheap but it feels good and can even run macros on its onboard
processor.
>
>   Michael

On 27/06/2018 21:16, Mike Spencer wrote:

> Well, I do occasionally use an emulator to play Civ I under MS-DOS 5.
> I guess that qualifies as "visit".

I still play that on DOSBOX. It is still a great game although I 
regularly beat it I never manage to get a high rating.

I also still play the original Bard's Tale, X-Com and Amberstar on emulator.

Those are the games I keep returning to. Modern platforms are so far 
ahead in terms of graphics, speed and sound but some games have to be 
played in the original form.

Andy

On 01/07/2018 21:58, Quadibloc wrote:
> There are things to be nostalgic for. When a Video Display Terminal cost $15,000, then, strange to relate, it
> had a better quality keyboard than today's computers usually do.

Nothing beats a proper mechanical keyboard with an individual switch per 
key as opposed the the flexible membrane, conductive pad and PCB pad 
modern keyboards.
My son bought me a mechanical keyboard on Christmas and I was ecstatic.

Andy

On 2018-07-01, Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> There are things to be nostalgic for. When a Video Display Terminal cost $15,000, then, strange to relate, it 
> had a better quality keyboard than today's computers usually do.


I visited the Victoria Albert many years ago. Most of the people were
looking at a classic car that was near the Entrance, years later,
I was  at the Smithsonian, where people were around a classic car, etc.


The classic computers would be More interesting for the ideas involved,
rather than the hardware.



--

greymaus.ireland.ie
Will Rant for Food.

On 2 Jul 2018 09:01:16 GMT
ma...@mail.com wrote:

> I visited the Victoria Albert many years ago. Most of the people were
> looking at a classic car that was near the Entrance, years later,
> I was  at the Smithsonian, where people were around a classic car, etc.

	There was a classic car rally nearby recently so I went along to
look - it's hard to realise that the cars I lusted after in my 20s are
considered classic cars now.

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN                                     | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

On 07/02/18 00:47, Bob Eager wrote:
> On Mon, 02 Jul 2018 00:26:56 +0100, Chris wrote:
>
>> On 07/01/18 23:55, Bob Eager wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I bought an IBM one in 1989, and it was in daily use. Still is - I'm
>>> typing this on it!
>>>
>>>
>> No concept of *design life* or planned obsolescence back then. Still
>> have a nos IBM keyboard, says TPE on the front badge, but has a 9 pin D
>> on the cable and a sheet saying only for use on the IBM PC-AT.
>>   From memory, the AT keyboards had a din plug on the cable, but
>> maybe mistaken...
>
> No, you are correct. The AT (as with the XT and the PC) had a 5 pin DIN
> plug. I still have some DIN to PS/2 adaptors.
>
> The keyboard cost £130, but that's less than 50p a year...

So wonder what the keyboard I have was used on ?. Part number
is 100A519, Date: 09 Jul 1987, FSCM: 1GZ84. The IBM Badge on
the front says "TPC Keyboard IV" and has a 9 pin D at the cable
end, 4 pins used, but the enclosed sheet says "for use only
on IBM PC-AT". Perhaps a special for some system or other,
but not quite standard. Don't even remember where I got these from.
Decades worth of collection in store, which i'm trying to clear
out this year, just keeping the best to restore and experiment
with...

Chris

Bob Eager <news...@eager.cx> writes:
>On Sun, 01 Jul 2018 22:22:00 +0000, John Levine wrote:
>
>> In article <phbieo$1noi$1...@gioia.aioe.org>,
>> Chris  <xxx.sys...@gfsys.co.uk> wrote:
>>>ago. Of course, let's not forget the first IBM PC's and their clicky
>>>over center sping action. Used to love those.
>> 
>> IBM sold the design to these guys.  The keyboards aren't cheap but
>> they're good.
>> 
>> https://www.pckeyboard.com/
>
>I bought an IBM one in 1989, and it was in daily use. Still is - I'm 
>typing this on it!
>

Personally, I've always (since the ASR-33) disliked noisy keyboards.  I'm
perfectly happy with the modern quiet keyboards (I just wish they'd use
more durable keytop decals...).

On Mon, 02 Jul 2018 14:14:46 GMT
scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:

> Personally, I've always (since the ASR-33) disliked noisy keyboards.  I'm
> perfectly happy with the modern quiet keyboards (I just wish they'd use
> more durable keytop decals...).

	Some (like this Rapoo) have double shot moulded keycaps. I rather
like this keyboard it has a really short travel reminiscent of an 029, not
sure what the mechanism is but it's several years old and still going
strong.

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN                                     | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

On 2018-07-02, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
> On 2 Jul 2018 09:01:16 GMT
> ma...@mail.com wrote:
>
>> I visited the Victoria Albert many years ago. Most of the people were
>> looking at a classic car that was near the Entrance, years later,
>> I was  at the Smithsonian, where people were around a classic car, etc.
>
> 	There was a classic car rally nearby recently so I went along to
> look - it's hard to realise that the cars I lusted after in my 20s are
> considered classic cars now.
>

The Gordon bennett one is on a circuit inside Co. Kildare, was on a while
ago for this year. The real classic cars. There is another group which
has a lot younger cars, and I am told there is considerable snobbish
resentment between the two groups

Group 2 has rallies in Durrow, Co. Laois, where there is space to look at the
cars.

(Looking at the Gordon Bennett event, and contemplating why that race
took place in Ireland, it could not take place in England at the time
because they had a rule for a short time, that a person would have to
walk in front of cars with a red flag.).I am told.


-- 
greymaus.ireland.ie
Will Rant for Food.

On 2 Jul 2018 17:59:02 GMT
ma...@mail.com wrote:

> The Gordon bennett one is on a circuit inside Co. Kildare, was on a while

	Woah there! From early childhood onwards I recall my father using
"Gordon Bennet" as a stand in for swearing without ever knowing who or what
it referred to from time to time over the decades I have asked people
(usually after hearing them use it as he did) without ever learning
anything. I even tried googling it once or twice, fruitlessly.

	For me this is a half century old minor mystery, thank you muchly
for mentioning it.

	So it was an early motor race run in Ireland, presumably named after
an early racer or race organiser ? Do you know more ?

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN                                     | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

On Mon, 02 Jul 2018 15:43:34 -0400, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:

> On 1 Jul 2018 22:55:35 GMT, Bob Eager wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, 01 Jul 2018 22:22:00 +0000, John Levine wrote:
>>
>>> In article <phbieo$1noi$1...@gioia.aioe.org>,
>>> Chris  <xxx.sys...@gfsys.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>ago. Of course, let's not forget the first IBM PC's and their clicky
>>>>over center sping action. Used to love those.
>>> 
>>> IBM sold the design to these guys.  The keyboards aren't cheap but
>>> they're good.
>>> 
>>> https://www.pckeyboard.com/
>>
>> I bought an IBM one in 1989, and it was in daily use. Still is - I'm
>> typing this on it!
> 
> What OS are you running?

The keyboard started out with DOS. Then OS/2. Now FreeBSD.

But it's on a KVM that is also attached to a (rarely used) Windows system.

Why?



-- 
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

On 2018-07-02, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
> On 2 Jul 2018 17:59:02 GMT
> ma...@mail.com wrote:
>
>> The Gordon bennett one is on a circuit inside Co. Kildare, was on a while
>
> 	Woah there! From early childhood onwards I recall my father using
> "Gordon Bennet" as a stand in for swearing without ever knowing who or what
> it referred to from time to time over the decades I have asked people
> (usually after hearing them use it as he did) without ever learning
> anything. I even tried googling it once or twice, fruitlessly.
>
> 	For me this is a half century old minor mystery, thank you muchly
> for mentioning it.
>
> 	So it was an early motor race run in Ireland, presumably named after
> an early racer or race organiser ? Do you know more ?
>

A lot more, fascinating man. I think it was his father that caused the 
Spanish-American war to sell more newspapers.

There was the story of the younger man having an arranged marriage, 
he visited a bar on the way to see his intended, then arrived,
the family was unready for him, left him in the front room for a 
while the girl was having a spray job, so when she arrived in the
front room, Gordon was relieving a need into the fireplace. He left
the US in shame and never returned.

The race was one of the first in the UK, the redflag order was in 
effect in GreatBritain but not in Ireland.

Oh, the newspaper group had a correspondent in the UK reporting 
on European affairs called Karl Marx

All the above is from personal accounts of the race and the man.
May bo be true, but what the hell.


-- 
greymaus.ireland.ie
Will Rant for Food.

John Levine <jo...@taugh.com> wrote:
> In article <phbieo$1noi$1...@gioia.aioe.org>,
> Chris  <xxx.sys...@gfsys.co.uk> wrote:
>> ago. Of course, let's not forget the first IBM PC's and
>> their clicky over center sping action. Used to love those.
> 
> IBM sold the design to these guys.  The keyboards aren't cheap but
> they're good.
> 
> https://www.pckeyboard.com/
> 

Prices seem to have come down a little. I have one on my primary machine; I
love the reassurance of the "click" to let me know I actually pressed the
key - something that the virtual keyboard on this iPad doesn't offer.

-- 
Pete

On 2 Jul 2018 20:01:31 GMT, Bob Eager wrote:
>
> On Mon, 02 Jul 2018 15:43:34 -0400, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>
>> On 1 Jul 2018 22:55:35 GMT, Bob Eager wrote:
>>>
>>> I bought an IBM one in 1989, and it was in daily use. Still is - I'm
>>> typing this on it!
>> 
>> What OS are you running?
>
> The keyboard started out with DOS. Then OS/2. Now FreeBSD.
>
> But it's on a KVM that is also attached to a (rarely used) Windows system.
>
> Why?

Just curious.

I wonder if you can run CPM-86 on it and get hold of a newsreader and
gain internet access somehow.
-- 
Andreas

My random toughts and comments
https://news-commentaries.blogspot.com/

Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> writes:

> On 2 Jul 2018 17:59:02 GMT
> ma...@mail.com wrote:
>
>> The Gordon bennett one is on a circuit inside Co. Kildare, was on a while
>
> 	Woah there! From early childhood onwards I recall my father using
> "Gordon Bennet" as a stand in for swearing without ever knowing who or what
> it referred to from time to time over the decades I have asked people
> (usually after hearing them use it as he did) without ever learning
> anything. I even tried googling it once or twice, fruitlessly.
>
> 	For me this is a half century old minor mystery, thank you muchly
> for mentioning it.
>
> 	So it was an early motor race run in Ireland, presumably named after
> an early racer or race organiser ? Do you know more ?

I'm not at all sure about the motor race, but believe that "Gordon
Bennett" as an expletive was inspired by this character:

  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Gordon_Bennett_Jr.

a second generation newspaperman, famous partly for sending Stanley to
find Livingstone, and for some poor impulse control on social occasions.

-- 

On Mon, 02 Jul 2018 16:47:34 -0400, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:

> On 2 Jul 2018 20:01:31 GMT, Bob Eager wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, 02 Jul 2018 15:43:34 -0400, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>>
>>> On 1 Jul 2018 22:55:35 GMT, Bob Eager wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I bought an IBM one in 1989, and it was in daily use. Still is - I'm
>>>> typing this on it!
>>> 
>>> What OS are you running?
>>
>> The keyboard started out with DOS. Then OS/2. Now FreeBSD.
>>
>> But it's on a KVM that is also attached to a (rarely used) Windows
>> system.
>>
>> Why?
> 
> Just curious.
> 
> I wonder if you can run CPM-86 on it and get hold of a newsreader and
> gain internet access somehow.

Eh? I'm talking about a keyboard...

-- 
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

On Mon, 2 Jul 2018 12:18:43 +0100, Ahem A Rivet's Shot
<ste...@eircom.net> wrote:

>On 2 Jul 2018 09:01:16 GMT
>ma...@mail.com wrote:
>
>> I visited the Victoria Albert many years ago. Most of the people were
>> looking at a classic car that was near the Entrance, years later,
>> I was  at the Smithsonian, where people were around a classic car, etc.
>
>	There was a classic car rally nearby recently so I went along to
>look - it's hard to realise that the cars I lusted after in my 20s are
>considered classic cars now.

There is some sort of Classic Car fest in the Fall in the Biloxi, MS
area. Lots of display cars, lots of stop and go traffic to.

On 2018-07-02, AndyW <An...@nojunqmail.com> wrote:

> On 27/06/2018 21:16, Mike Spencer wrote:
>
>> Well, I do occasionally use an emulator to play Civ I under MS-DOS 5.
>> I guess that qualifies as "visit".
>
> I still play that on DOSBOX. It is still a great game although I 
> regularly beat it I never manage to get a high rating.
>
> I also still play the original Bard's Tale, X-Com and Amberstar on emulator.
>
> Those are the games I keep returning to. Modern platforms are so far 
> ahead in terms of graphics, speed and sound but some games have to be 
> played in the original form.

Now I have to get my CP/M box working.  I spent a lot of happy hours
playing Ladder, a sort of Donkey Kong clone using ASCII characters
on a 24x80 cursor-addressable terminal.

-- 
/~\  cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ /  I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
 X   Top-posted messages will probably be ignored.  See RFC1855.
/ \  Fight low-contrast text in web pages!  http://contrastrebellion.com

On 2018-07-02, Radey Shouman <sho...@comcast.net> wrote:

> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> writes:
>
>> On 2 Jul 2018 17:59:02 GMT
>> ma...@mail.com wrote:
>>
>>> The Gordon bennett one is on a circuit inside Co. Kildare, was on a while
>>
>> 	Woah there! From early childhood onwards I recall my father using
>> "Gordon Bennet" as a stand in for swearing without ever knowing who or what
>> it referred to from time to time over the decades I have asked people
>> (usually after hearing them use it as he did) without ever learning
>> anything. I even tried googling it once or twice, fruitlessly.
>>
>> 	For me this is a half century old minor mystery, thank you muchly
>> for mentioning it.
>>
>> 	So it was an early motor race run in Ireland, presumably named after
>> an early racer or race organiser ? Do you know more ?
>
> I'm not at all sure about the motor race, but believe that "Gordon
> Bennett" as an expletive was inspired by this character:
>
>   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Gordon_Bennett_Jr.
>
> a second generation newspaperman, famous partly for sending Stanley to
> find Livingstone, and for some poor impulse control on social occasions.

Thanks for the history lessons.  I remember hearing "Gordon Bennett" used as
a mild oath on the TV series _Red Dwarf_, and always wondered what it meant.

-- 
/~\  cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ /  I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
 X   Top-posted messages will probably be ignored.  See RFC1855.
/ \  Fight low-contrast text in web pages!  http://contrastrebellion.com

On Mon, 02 Jul 2018 17:05:14 -0400
Radey Shouman <sho...@comcast.net> wrote:

> I'm not at all sure about the motor race, but believe that "Gordon
> Bennett" as an expletive was inspired by this character:
> 
>   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Gordon_Bennett_Jr.

	Thank you, the same person as associated with the motor race it
seems (at least the fireplace story is in common).

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN                                     | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

On 3 Jul 2018 09:11:37 GMT
Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:

> I have always assumed it to be a euphemism for "Gor blimey", itself
> a corruption of the oath "God blind me."

	For some time I suspected that Warren Mitchell or johnny Speight
might have invented it for Alf Garnett.

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN                                     | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

On Tuesday, July 3, 2018 at 4:00:12 AM UTC-6, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On 3 Jul 2018 09:11:37 GMT
> Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:

> > I have always assumed it to be a euphemism for "Gor blimey", itself
> > a corruption of the oath "God blind me."

> 	For some time I suspected that Warren Mitchell or johnny Speight
> might have invented it for Alf Garnett.

And here I thought it was from "God blame me", with "blame" a euphemism for 
damn.

John Savard

On Tue, 03 Jul 2018 15:11:35 -0400, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:

> On 2 Jul 2018 21:11:21 GMT, Bob Eager wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, 02 Jul 2018 16:47:34 -0400, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>>
>>> On 2 Jul 2018 20:01:31 GMT, Bob Eager wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, 02 Jul 2018 15:43:34 -0400, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 1 Jul 2018 22:55:35 GMT, Bob Eager wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I bought an IBM one in 1989, and it was in daily use. Still is -
>>>>>> I'm typing this on it!
>>>>> 
>>>>> What OS are you running?
>>>>
>>>> The keyboard started out with DOS. Then OS/2. Now FreeBSD.
>>>>
>>>> But it's on a KVM that is also attached to a (rarely used) Windows
>>>> system.
>>>>
>>>> Why?
>>> 
>>> Just curious.
>>> 
>>> I wonder if you can run CPM-86 on it and get hold of a newsreader and
>>> gain internet access somehow.
>>
>> Eh? I'm talking about a keyboard...
> 
> I understood you have a 1989 IBM PC running accessing the usenet.
> Nothing about any keyboard.

No, it's a 1989 keyboard connected to about the fifth machine I'd had 
since then.



-- 
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

AndyW <An...@nojunqmail.com> wrote:

> I have been spoiled by GHz of speed, GB of memory, TB of disk space and 
> Mega-mega pixels of screen resolutions.

I guess we've all been spoiled by that. But I suspect that just low
resolution and beeping sounds are enough to cause pleasing state of
nostalgia.

I'm not a gamer, but while browsing web I see ads and discussions about
games every now and then. In last several years there were quite few
successful titles that can be called "retro games". They are native
Win/Lin/Mac programs running on x86_64, but visually they're very close to
what was state of the art back in the days of Commodore, ZX Spectrum, and
other 8-bit home computers. Of course, new games are different than the
titles of 1980's, they more like something one would call "close enough".
But people actually like it! I suspect main audience is people in their
30's or 40's who played old games when they were kids and just want to feel
the nostalgia, and simple visual/audio experience works for them even
though they were spoiled by GHzs of CPU speed and mega-mega pixels of
screen resolution.

So maybe that's all what nostalgia is? Video/audio experience?

> Compilation time of a few seconds is not the same as setting the program 
> to compile and popping off to the pub.
> 
> Nostalgia is a lovely country until you go there and visit.
> 
> Andy
> 
> 
> 

On Wed, 04 Jul 2018 23:01:31 GMT, Pabst Blue Ribbon
<pabst@blue.ribbon> wrote:

>AndyW <An...@nojunqmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I have been spoiled by GHz of speed, GB of memory, TB of disk space and 
>> Mega-mega pixels of screen resolutions.
>
>I guess we've all been spoiled by that. But I suspect that just low
>resolution and beeping sounds are enough to cause pleasing state of
>nostalgia.
>
>I'm not a gamer, but while browsing web I see ads and discussions about
>games every now and then. In last several years there were quite few
>successful titles that can be called "retro games". They are native
>Win/Lin/Mac programs running on x86_64, but visually they're very close to
>what was state of the art back in the days of Commodore, ZX Spectrum, and
>other 8-bit home computers. Of course, new games are different than the
>titles of 1980's, they more like something one would call "close enough".
>But people actually like it! I suspect main audience is people in their
>30's or 40's who played old games when they were kids and just want to feel
>the nostalgia, and simple visual/audio experience works for them even
>though they were spoiled by GHzs of CPU speed and mega-mega pixels of
>screen resolution.
>
>So maybe that's all what nostalgia is? Video/audio experience?

I am also on a paper and pencil rpg forum. People there went nuts over
the 8-bit games that have come out again. They do remember them, and
are happy to be playing them again. Several people posted about the
8-bit consoles they still had. The discussion got them to get them out
and try them again. After that, they compare the old and new versions
of the games.

On 05/07/2018 00:01, Pabst Blue Ribbon wrote:
> AndyW <An...@nojunqmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> I have been spoiled by GHz of speed, GB of memory, TB of disk space and
>> Mega-mega pixels of screen resolutions.
> 
> I guess we've all been spoiled by that. But I suspect that just low
> resolution and beeping sounds are enough to cause pleasing state of
> nostalgia.
> 
> I'm not a gamer, but while browsing web I see ads and discussions about
> games every now and then. In last several years there were quite few
> successful titles that can be called "retro games". They are native
> Win/Lin/Mac programs running on x86_64, but visually they're very close to
> what was state of the art back in the days of Commodore, ZX Spectrum, and
> other 8-bit home computers. Of course, new games are different than the
> titles of 1980's, they more like something one would call "close enough".
> But people actually like it! I suspect main audience is people in their
> 30's or 40's who played old games when they were kids and just want to feel
> the nostalgia, and simple visual/audio experience works for them even
> though they were spoiled by GHzs of CPU speed and mega-mega pixels of
> screen resolution.
> 
> So maybe that's all what nostalgia is? Video/audio experience?


I am coming to think that a lot of nostalgia is simply remembering when 
things were new and exciting. Nostalgia is remembering how it used to 
make me feel.
A lot of older games that I used to play in the 80s I absolutely loved 
but now they do nothing for me. At the time they were cutting edge and I 
think that was what I was remembering. Now they are not so new they have 
no impact, like hearing a joke over and over, it is never funny as the 
first time (except for 4 candles; that never gets old - for non-Brits it 
is a sketch in a comedy show based on misunderstood accents. 
Consistently voted the top comedy moment in UK polls).

Andy

On 05/07/2018 01:37, JimP wrote:

> I am also on a paper and pencil rpg forum. People there went nuts over
> the 8-bit games that have come out again. They do remember them, and
> are happy to be playing them again. Several people posted about the
> 8-bit consoles they still had. The discussion got them to get them out
> and try them again. After that, they compare the old and new versions
> of the games.

Ditto re RPG. I still have my original D&D and AD&D, Traveller etc.

The only old games I still play are RPGs such as The Bard's Tale 
(Spectrum) and Amberstar (Atari).
I still have a regular (well once a year is regular, it's just not very 
frequent) D&D game that has been going since the 80s.

What was the conclusion of old vs new games?

Andy

On 05/07/2018 00:01, Pabst Blue Ribbon wrote:
> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> 
>> Nostalgia ain't what it used to be.
> 
> Lol! That's quotable.
> 
> 
> 


As is ...

It's bad luck to be superstitious

On Wed, 04 Jul 2018 23:01:32 GMT, Pabst Blue Ribbon <pabst@blue.ribbon> 
wrote:

> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> 
>> Nostalgia ain't what it used to be.
> 
> Lol! That's quotable.
> 
> 
> 

It's old.
https://quoteinvestigator.com/2013/07/06/nostalgia-is-not/
says 1959.


-- 
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.

On Wed, 04 Jul 2018 23:01:32 GMT
Pabst Blue Ribbon <pabst@blue.ribbon> wrote:

> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> 
> > Nostalgia ain't what it used to be.
> 
> Lol! That's quotable.

	Goes along with "The future was never like this.".

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN                                     | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

On Thu, 5 Jul 2018 07:33:03 +0100, AndyW <An...@nojunqmail.com> wrote:

>On 05/07/2018 01:37, JimP wrote:
>
>> I am also on a paper and pencil rpg forum. People there went nuts over
>> the 8-bit games that have come out again. They do remember them, and
>> are happy to be playing them again. Several people posted about the
>> 8-bit consoles they still had. The discussion got them to get them out
>> and try them again. After that, they compare the old and new versions
>> of the games.
>
>Ditto re RPG. I still have my original D&D and AD&D, Traveller etc.

I stil have my d&d beige/brown booklets, and my 1e ad&d books. I added
Traveller a few years ago. Haven't ha a chance to play them this
century though.

>The only old games I still play are RPGs such as The Bard's Tale 
>(Spectrum) and Amberstar (Atari).
>I still have a regular (well once a year is regular, it's just not very 
>frequent) D&D game that has been going since the 80s.
>
>What was the conclusion of old vs new games?

I haven't paid much attention as my sisters and I went to the arcade
back then. Tempest and Centipede were our faves. Back around 1990 I
bought a cd with centipede on it, and it almost ruined my computer.
Not sure why, I don't think it was the early form of DirectX that
caused the hiccups.

The discussion on the forums has been going on for around a month or
two now.

On 2018-07-05, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:

> On Wed, 04 Jul 2018 23:01:32 GMT
> Pabst Blue Ribbon <pabst@blue.ribbon> wrote:
>
>> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>> 
>>> Nostalgia ain't what it used to be.
>> 
>> Lol! That's quotable.
>
> 	Goes along with "The future was never like this.".

The past is dead, the present sucks, and even the future
isn't what it used to be.

ObComputer:
You shouldn't anthropomorphize computers.  They don't like it.

-- 
/~\  cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ /  I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
 X   Top-posted messages will probably be ignored.  See RFC1855.
/ \  Fight low-contrast text in web pages!  http://contrastrebellion.com

On 05/07/2018 12:50, JimP wrote:
> I stil have my d&d beige/brown booklets, and my 1e ad&d books. I added
> Traveller a few years ago. Haven't ha a chance to play them this
> century though.


1st edition. Wow. I have AD&D and 2e D&D.

>> What was the conclusion of old vs new games?
> 
> I haven't paid much attention as my sisters and I went to the arcade
> back then. Tempest and Centipede were our faves. Back around 1990 I
> bought a cd with centipede on it, and it almost ruined my computer.
> Not sure why, I don't think it was the early form of DirectX that
> caused the hiccups.

Ahhhh Tempest. Loved that game, the spinner was surprisingly tactile, 
like the tuning dial in old valve radios. I wasted a lot of money in 
that Tempest machine.
I built a Raspberry Pi based MAME cabinet but is has a button and 
joystick panel. I need to add a spinner so I can play Tempest 
properly..... and a trackball for Marble Madness... and three extra 
joysticks for Gauntlet....


Andy

On 2018-07-06, AndyW <An...@nojunqmail.com> wrote:

> On 05/07/2018 12:50, JimP wrote:
>
>> I stil have my d&d beige/brown booklets, and my 1e ad&d books. I added
>> Traveller a few years ago. Haven't ha a chance to play them this
>> century though.
>
> 1st edition. Wow. I have AD&D and 2e D&D.
>
>>> What was the conclusion of old vs new games?
>> 
>> I haven't paid much attention as my sisters and I went to the arcade
>> back then. Tempest and Centipede were our faves. Back around 1990 I
>> bought a cd with centipede on it, and it almost ruined my computer.
>> Not sure why, I don't think it was the early form of DirectX that
>> caused the hiccups.
>
> Ahhhh Tempest. Loved that game, the spinner was surprisingly tactile, 
> like the tuning dial in old valve radios. I wasted a lot of money in 
> that Tempest machine.

Me too.  I finally posted high score at the local arcade.

I heard there was an invisible level, but I never got that high.

> I built a Raspberry Pi based MAME cabinet but is has a button and 
> joystick panel. I need to add a spinner so I can play Tempest 
> properly..... and a trackball for Marble Madness... and three extra 
> joysticks for Gauntlet....

I'd love to play Tempest again.  I got hold of the ROMs out of an
actual machine, as well as schematics.  The only thing I need to
get is a round tuit.

As for Marble Madness, I could see whether my Amiga still fires up...

-- 
/~\  cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ /  I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
 X   Top-posted messages will probably be ignored.  See RFC1855.
/ \  Fight low-contrast text in web pages!  http://contrastrebellion.com

On Sat, 07 Jul 2018 07:58:44 -0400, Bud Frede wrote:

>> IBM sold the design to these guys.  The keyboards aren't cheap but
>> they're good.
>>
>> https://www.pckeyboard.com/
> 
> They're really not that expensive compared to other keyboards with
> discrete mechanical switches. They're also pretty well-proven technology
> and may well last as long as the original Model M's did. (I know people
> who are still using their Model M's.)

Like me! As I said elsewhere, I got this one in November 1989 and have 
used it daily. And the legends on the keycaps are as good as new.



-- 
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

On Sat, 07 Jul 2018 08:34:09 -0400, Bud Frede <fr...@mouse-potato.com>
wrote:

>Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> writes:
>
>> John Levine <jo...@taugh.com> wrote:
>>> In article <phbieo$1noi$1...@gioia.aioe.org>,
>>> Chris  <xxx.sys...@gfsys.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> ago. Of course, let's not forget the first IBM PC's and
>>>> their clicky over center sping action. Used to love those.
>>> 
>>> IBM sold the design to these guys.  The keyboards aren't cheap but
>>> they're good.
>>> 
>>> https://www.pckeyboard.com/
>>> 
>>
>> Prices seem to have come down a little. I have one on my primary machine; I
>> love the reassurance of the "click" to let me know I actually pressed the
>> key - something that the virtual keyboard on this iPad doesn't offer.
>
>I hate onscreen virtual keyboards. I find them very hard to type
>accurately with. Part of that is probably because I have large hands and
>thus fingertips. I tried using a stylus in the past, but modern
>smartphones and tablets don't have a good place to store a stylus, so I
>kept misplacing it.

Just a comment but the Samsung Galaxy Tab A with S-Pen has an internal
storage slot for the stylus.  This limits the size of the stylus
though so it's not all that comfortable to write with.  I believe that
the Galaxy Note has a similar arrangement.

The Surface Pro has a magnetic attachment for the stylus, however it's
not very secure (I suspect they do that to sell more styli).

>I used to use Palmpilot PDAs and I had an alternative virtual keyboard
>called the Fitaly keyboard. I found that I was able to be very fast and
>accurate when using that with a stylus. I was far faster than anyone I
>saw who tried to use the pseudo-handwriting input (I think it was called
>Jot?).

On 06/07/2018 16:50, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> I'd love to play Tempest again.  I got hold of the ROMs out of an
> actual machine, as well as schematics.  The only thing I need to
> get is a round tuit.

The round tuit you need is a SpinTrak (with flywheel for extra momentum)
Expensive but worth it for that unmistakably undefinable tactile feel of 
the spinning mass.

Add a Spintrak to piMame and some woodwork and you have a full arcade 
cabinet for Tempest.

Andy