🚀 go-pugleaf

On 26/06/2018 11:31, Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote:
> Yankland and its politics is increasingly irrelevant on
> a day-to-day basis to the rest of the world (Trump and
> Clinton the only candidates????? ), so is anyone here
> interested in computers?

Says the guy who just started the thread on Trump and Korea...

Andy

On 2018-06-26, Gareth's Downstairs Computer <headstone255.but.n...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Yankland and its politics is increasingly irrelevant on
> a day-to-day basis to the rest of the world (Trump and
> Clinton the only candidates????? ), so is anyone here
> interested in computers?

++++++++++++++

-- 
greymaus.ireland.ie
Will Rant for Food

On Tue, 26 Jun 2018 11:31:32 +0100, Gareth's Downstairs Computer
<headstone255.but.n...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Yankland and its politics is increasingly irrelevant on
>a day-to-day basis to the rest of the world (Trump and
>Clinton the only candidates????? ), so is anyone here
>interested in computers?

Cleaning out my shed, I just unearthed some boxes of my old Tandy
Color Computer stuff. A few intact examples (1 through 3, and I think
an MC10) plus a bunch of peripherals, cables, tapes, disks, reference
manuals. Been at least 20 years since I put power to any of it.

Part of me wants to say how awesome it all was. And it did get me
started. I first learned to program the MC-10's slightly funky BASIC,
so deeply baked-in that the keywords had keyboard shortcuts in
hardware. Seems weird now.

Then there was Color and Extended BASIC, then 6809 assembler. Hacking
hardware to add RAM where Tandy never meant for RAM to go,
overclocking to nearly 2MHz (!), burning custom DOS EPROMs, letting
the smoke out more times than I care to admit. But the fact is that
all of this wasn't very shiny after all...sure, it got me started, and
at the time it was all I could afford, but I didn't know what else I
was missing. Nostalgia is funny.

By the time I had hardware that could run OS-9, I'd begun to have
access to x86 type PCs, and that was pretty much the end of that
phase. It would take many more years before I started to learn about
OSes that could do amazing things like run two programs at once.

On 26/06/2018 20:55, Scott wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Jun 2018 11:31:32 +0100, Gareth's Downstairs Computer
> <headstone255.but.n...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
>> Yankland and its politics is increasingly irrelevant on
>> a day-to-day basis to the rest of the world (Trump and
>> Clinton the only candidates????? ), so is anyone here
>> interested in computers?
> 
> Cleaning out my shed, I just unearthed some boxes of my old Tandy
> Color Computer stuff. A few intact examples (1 through 3, and I think
> an MC10) plus a bunch of peripherals, cables, tapes, disks, reference
> manuals. Been at least 20 years since I put power to any of it.
> 
> Part of me wants to say how awesome it all was. And it did get me
> started. I first learned to program the MC-10's slightly funky BASIC,
> so deeply baked-in that the keywords had keyboard shortcuts in
> hardware. Seems weird now.
> 
> Then there was Color and Extended BASIC, then 6809 assembler. Hacking
> hardware to add RAM where Tandy never meant for RAM to go,
> overclocking to nearly 2MHz (!), burning custom DOS EPROMs, letting
> the smoke out more times than I care to admit. But the fact is that
> all of this wasn't very shiny after all...sure, it got me started, and
> at the time it was all I could afford, but I didn't know what else I
> was missing. Nostalgia is funny.
> 
> By the time I had hardware that could run OS-9, I'd begun to have
> access to x86 type PCs, and that was pretty much the end of that
> phase. It would take many more years before I started to learn about
> OSes that could do amazing things like run two programs at once.
> 

I was never really interested in such machines, having a low-level 
interest in electronics, and was very much not-invented-here when
it came to others' software, although I did have an Oric and an Atmos
which were a pain in the bum because the colour on the VDU was
controlled by in-line groups of pixels. Did a bit of machine code
programming (NOT assembler  :-(  ) which meant every so often inserting
a sequence of 3 NOPs in case of having to patch in a jump to sort
a problem.


That low-level interest at the moment is trying to fathom out how to
select each of the 4 processors in the RPi3 A53 implementation.

Early in my career, all systems came with a complete hardware manual
including all the registers in I/O, so these days feel a little bit lost
/ swimming out of my depth / fighting blind when so  little info is
around today.

The Small Computer Handbook for the PDP8/E wsa a good example of an
informatie manual!

On 26/06/2018 20:55, Scott wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Jun 2018 11:31:32 +0100, Gareth's Downstairs Computer
> <headstone255.but.n...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
>> Yankland and its politics is increasingly irrelevant on
>> a day-to-day basis to the rest of the world (Trump and
>> Clinton the only candidates????? ), so is anyone here
>> interested in computers?
> 
> Cleaning out my shed, I just unearthed some boxes of my old Tandy
> Color Computer stuff. A few intact examples (1 through 3, and I think
> an MC10) plus a bunch of peripherals, cables, tapes, disks, reference
> manuals. Been at least 20 years since I put power to any of it.
> 
> Part of me wants to say how awesome it all was. And it did get me
> started. I first learned to program the MC-10's slightly funky BASIC,
> so deeply baked-in that the keywords had keyboard shortcuts in
> hardware. Seems weird now.
> 
> Then there was Color and Extended BASIC, then 6809 assembler. Hacking
> hardware to add RAM where Tandy never meant for RAM to go,
> overclocking to nearly 2MHz (!), burning custom DOS EPROMs, letting
> the smoke out more times than I care to admit. But the fact is that
> all of this wasn't very shiny after all...sure, it got me started, and
> at the time it was all I could afford, but I didn't know what else I
> was missing. Nostalgia is funny.

I was the same with an Acorn Atom, it also could be overclocked to 2MHz 
by the addition of a physical switch, some wires and careful soldering 
and a capacitor or two.
I still have it and a second one I bought on impulse on ebay but never used.
...and yes Nostalgia is funny. I loved my Atom and loved playing games 
and programming it (with a built-in assembler you could do a lot with a 
few kB) But I fired it up recently and it is not a good experience.

Andy

On 2018-06-27, AndyW <An...@nojunqmail.com> wrote:
> On 26/06/2018 20:55, Scott wrote:
>> On Tue, 26 Jun 2018 11:31:32 +0100, Gareth's Downstairs Computer
>> <headstone255.but.n...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Yankland and its politics is increasingly irrelevant on
>>> a day-to-day basis to the rest of the world (Trump and
>>> Clinton the only candidates????? ), so is anyone here
>>> interested in computers?
>> 
>> Cleaning out my shed, I just unearthed some boxes of my old Tandy
> and a capacitor or two.
> I still have it and a second one I bought on impulse on ebay but never used.
> ...and yes Nostalgia is funny. I loved my Atom and loved playing games 
> and programming it (with a built-in assembler you could do a lot with a 
> few kB) But I fired it up recently and it is not a good experience.
>


You can never go home!

-- 
greymaus.ireland.ie
Will Rant for Food

On 27/06/2018 08:10, maus wrote:
> On 2018-06-27, AndyW <An...@nojunqmail.com> wrote:
>> On 26/06/2018 20:55, Scott wrote:
>>> On Tue, 26 Jun 2018 11:31:32 +0100, Gareth's Downstairs Computer
>>> <headstone255.but.n...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Yankland and its politics is increasingly irrelevant on
>>>> a day-to-day basis to the rest of the world (Trump and
>>>> Clinton the only candidates????? ), so is anyone here
>>>> interested in computers?
>>>
>>> Cleaning out my shed, I just unearthed some boxes of my old Tandy
>> and a capacitor or two.
>> I still have it and a second one I bought on impulse on ebay but never used.
>> ...and yes Nostalgia is funny. I loved my Atom and loved playing games
>> and programming it (with a built-in assembler you could do a lot with a
>> few kB) But I fired it up recently and it is not a good experience.
>>
> 
> 
> You can never go home!


I think a lot of people who get misty eyed over old computers have never 
tried to go back and use them.
I used to use a pr1me system at university and I was in awe of it.
I had the chance to use one a few years ago and it is rubbish. Similarly 
I dug out an old CP/M machine and it is not at all as much fun how I 
remembered it.

I have been spoiled by GHz of speed, GB of memory, TB of disk space and 
Mega-mega pixels of screen resolutions.
Compilation time of a few seconds is not the same as setting the program 
to compile and popping off to the pub.

Nostalgia is a lovely country until you go there and visit.

Andy

On Wednesday, June 27, 2018 at 10:11:23 AM UTC+2, AndyW wrote:
> On 27/06/2018 08:10, maus wrote:
> > On 2018-06-27, AndyW <An...@nojunqmail.com> wrote:
> >> On 26/06/2018 20:55, Scott wrote:
> >>> On Tue, 26 Jun 2018 11:31:32 +0100, Gareth's Downstairs Computer
> >>> <headstone255.but.n...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Yankland and its politics is increasingly irrelevant on
> >>>> a day-to-day basis to the rest of the world (Trump and
> >>>> Clinton the only candidates????? ), so is anyone here
> >>>> interested in computers?
> >>>
> >>> Cleaning out my shed, I just unearthed some boxes of my old Tandy
> >> and a capacitor or two.
> >> I still have it and a second one I bought on impulse on ebay but never used.
> >> ...and yes Nostalgia is funny. I loved my Atom and loved playing games
> >> and programming it (with a built-in assembler you could do a lot with a
> >> few kB) But I fired it up recently and it is not a good experience.
> >>
> > 
> > 
> > You can never go home!
> 
> 
> I think a lot of people who get misty eyed over old computers have never 
> tried to go back and use them.
> I used to use a pr1me system at university and I was in awe of it.
> I had the chance to use one a few years ago and it is rubbish. Similarly 
> I dug out an old CP/M machine and it is not at all as much fun how I 
> remembered it.
> 
> I have been spoiled by GHz of speed, GB of memory, TB of disk space and 
> Mega-mega pixels of screen resolutions.
> Compilation time of a few seconds is not the same as setting the program 
> to compile and popping off to the pub.
> 
> Nostalgia is a lovely country until you go there and visit.
> 
> Andy

You say that as if popping off to the pub while a compilation happens is a bad thing...

On Wed, 27 Jun 2018 01:36:58 -0700 (PDT)
Neil Thompson <albi...@gmail.com> wrote:

> You say that as if popping off to the pub while a compilation happens is
> a bad thing...

	It is when you discover that five minutes after you left it spat
out a syntax error.

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN                                     | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

On 27 Jun 2018 09:01:24 GMT
Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:

> Couldn't agree more. I worked with MUMPS for a couple of years and loved
> it. I recently found and installed a Linux port of it, and thought it
> was junk.

	It would be a very sad thing if things in the computing world
weren't much much better than they were thirty years ago given the way the
underlying technology has been improving.

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN                                     | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

On Wednesday, June 27, 2018 at 11:30:06 AM UTC+2, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Wed, 27 Jun 2018 01:36:58 -0700 (PDT)
> Neil Thompson <albi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > You say that as if popping off to the pub while a compilation happens is
> > a bad thing...
> 
> 	It is when you discover that five minutes after you left it spat
> out a syntax error.
> 
> -- 
> Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
> C:\>WIN                                     | A better way to focus the sun
> The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
> You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

Hehe. True.  It was worse though when we submitted our compilations on punch cards and only got the errors and listings back a day later.  We used to check every card before submission.  Ah, the days when machine time was expensive and programmers were cheap :-P

On 27 Jun 2018 10:04:38 GMT
Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:

> On 2018-06-27, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:

> > 	It would be a very sad thing if things in the computing world
> > weren't much much better than they were thirty years ago given the way
> > the underlying technology has been improving.
> 
> There's much that hasn't changed, though. It just got faster.

	Sure but faster like the difference between a bicycle and a
scramjet.


-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN                                     | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

On 27/06/2018 10:34, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On 27 Jun 2018 09:01:24 GMT
> Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
> 
>> Couldn't agree more. I worked with MUMPS for a couple of years and loved
>> it. I recently found and installed a Linux port of it, and thought it
>> was junk.
> 
> 	It would be a very sad thing if things in the computing world
> weren't much much better than they were thirty years ago given the way the
> underlying technology has been improving.
> 

Even sadder were those subscribers to a folklore group to castigate old 
times.

On Tue, 26 Jun 2018 21:08:31 +0100, Gareth's Downstairs Computer
<headstone255.but.n...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>controlled by in-line groups of pixels. Did a bit of machine code
>programming (NOT assembler  :-(  ) which meant every so often inserting
>a sequence of 3 NOPs in case of having to patch in a jump to sort
>a problem.

I did that once or twice, though mainly as an exercise. If the 6809
had microcode it was on a level I didn't understand, so in my case it
was more like manual assembly than actual machine coding.

>Early in my career, all systems came with a complete hardware manual
>including all the registers in I/O, so these days feel a little bit lost
>/ swimming out of my depth / fighting blind when so  little info is
>around today.
>
>The Small Computer Handbook for the PDP8/E wsa a good example of an
>informatie manual!

In a sense I think tech's complexity has outpaced my ability to keep
up with it. The 6809 assembly handbook was about this >-< thick,
something you could leaf through in a few hours and get the gist of
it, if not all the details. The 8086 book was maybe twice as thick, or
a bit less. Then the 286, 386, 486, 32 then 64 bits, on and on until I
though I was back in the AS/400 lab with its entire wall covered in
books. It gets to the point that sane people back away and adapt to
using prefab tools that digest all this arcana and present it in neat,
usable, pre-digested libraries.

I used to write libraries, back when I was crazy enough to get away
with it. Now I just use others' libraries, which must mean I've gone
sane. How boring is that?

On 27 Jun 2018 11:49:27 GMT
Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:

> On 2018-06-27, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
> > On 27 Jun 2018 10:04:38 GMT
> > Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >> On 2018-06-27, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
> >
> >> > 	It would be a very sad thing if things in the computing world
> >> > weren't much much better than they were thirty years ago given the
> >> > way the underlying technology has been improving.
> >> 
> >> There's much that hasn't changed, though. It just got faster.
> >
> > 	Sure but faster like the difference between a bicycle and a
> > scramjet.
> 
> Sure, but when I peered over the shoulders of my colleagues across the
> aisle, yes, they were running tcp3270 sessions on PCs instead of gigantic
> 3270 monitors, but ISPF/TSO looked *exactly* the same as it did 43 years
> ago when I saw it for the first time.

	I'd like to hope it's a case of "if it ain't broke don't fix it",
but it's probably inertia.

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN                                     | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

On 27/06/2018 12:35, Scott wrote:
> 
> In a sense I think tech's complexity has outpaced my ability to keep
> up with it.

Been reading through the A53 / Aarm64 documentation off and on
for a few months; might finally get around to powering the RPi3  :-)

Still looking for the instructions that deal with controlling the
various CPUs, of which there are 4.

But, generally, all the facilities of the A53 are within my experience
except for SIMD and cryptography, so still hoping.

On 2018-06-27, AndyW <An...@nojunqmail.com> wrote:

> I think a lot of people who get misty eyed over old computers have never 
> tried to go back and use them.
> I used to use a pr1me system at university and I was in awe of it.
> I had the chance to use one a few years ago and it is rubbish. Similarly 
> I dug out an old CP/M machine and it is not at all as much fun how I 
> remembered it.

Last year I cleaned the rat droppings out of my IMSAI, re-formed the
electrolytics, and powered it up.  Unfortunately, the boot EPROM has
suffered bit rot.  Someday, in my copious free time (hah!), I'm going
to find the BIOS listing and an EPROM programmer (and cobble together
that hack that lets you use a 2716 in place of a 2708, which is
almost impossible to find or program these days) and get CP/M running.

> I have been spoiled by GHz of speed, GB of memory, TB of disk space and 
> Mega-mega pixels of screen resolutions.

Not to mention emulations that would run rings around those old machines.

> Compilation time of a few seconds is not the same as setting the program 
> to compile and popping off to the pub.

I remember that.  Two consumer-grade reel-to-reel tape units with hacked
motor circuits, fed by a surplus Bell 202 modem - and a TTY35RO for a printer.

> Nostalgia is a lovely country until you go there and visit.

Nostalgia ain't what it used to be.

-- 
/~\  cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ /  I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
 X   Top-posted messages will probably be ignored.  See RFC1855.
/ \  Fight low-contrast text in web pages!  http://contrastrebellion.com

On 2018-06-27, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:

> On 27 Jun 2018 09:01:24 GMT
> Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Couldn't agree more. I worked with MUMPS for a couple of years and loved
>> it. I recently found and installed a Linux port of it, and thought it
>> was junk.
>
> 	It would be a very sad thing if things in the computing world
> weren't much much better than they were thirty years ago given the way the
> underlying technology has been improving.

And then there's Windows...

-- 
/~\  cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ /  I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
 X   Top-posted messages will probably be ignored.  See RFC1855.
/ \  Fight low-contrast text in web pages!  http://contrastrebellion.com

On Wed, 27 Jun 2018, AndyW wrote:

> On 27/06/2018 08:10, maus wrote:

>> You can never go home!
>
>
> I think a lot of people who get misty eyed over old computers have never 
> tried to go back and use them.

Maybe for many, but there are small groups who are really into the old 
computers, not just collecting, but using them.  Actually, they are more 
likely sticking with computers they started with when they were current. 
It's nostalgia, but it's not anti-technology, they generally do have more 
recent computers.  But they are the ones who keep the software available 
or improve it, and create and buy new upgrades.  It's not a minor thing to 
them.  I can sort of grasp it all, but I can't get as excited.

>
> I have been spoiled by GHz of speed, GB of memory, TB of disk space and 
> Mega-mega pixels of screen resolutions.
> Compilation time of a few seconds is not the same as setting the program to 
> compile and popping off to the pub.
>
I first tried C on a Radio Shack Color Computer, I guess by then it was 
the III maybe with 512K or RAM (I may not have had the upgrade when I got 
C) and only 2 5.25" floppy drives.

It was painful, and I had no other experience to compare it to.  I'd type 
in a program, leaving endless errors since I was just starting, and it 
would take it's time to compile even a short program, and then a long 
stream of error messages.  I soon gave up on C.

But yes, even on a 1GHz computer with 512K or RAM circa 2005, I tried C 
again and it was snappy.  A short program would compile in no time, it was 
like running a BASIC program on a 1MHz computer.  It makes so much 
difference.

   Michael

On Wed, 27 Jun 2018, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> On 2018-06-27, AndyW <An...@nojunqmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I think a lot of people who get misty eyed over old computers have never
>> tried to go back and use them.
>> I used to use a pr1me system at university and I was in awe of it.
>> I had the chance to use one a few years ago and it is rubbish. Similarly
>> I dug out an old CP/M machine and it is not at all as much fun how I
>> remembered it.
>
> Last year I cleaned the rat droppings out of my IMSAI, re-formed the
> electrolytics, and powered it up.  Unfortunately, the boot EPROM has
> suffered bit rot.  Someday, in my copious free time (hah!), I'm going
> to find the BIOS listing and an EPROM programmer (and cobble together
> that hack that lets you use a 2716 in place of a 2708, which is
> almost impossible to find or program these days) and get CP/M running.
>
>> I have been spoiled by GHz of speed, GB of memory, TB of disk space and
>> Mega-mega pixels of screen resolutions.
>
> Not to mention emulations that would run rings around those old machines.
>
>> Compilation time of a few seconds is not the same as setting the program
>> to compile and popping off to the pub.
>
> I remember that.  Two consumer-grade reel-to-reel tape units with hacked
> motor circuits, fed by a surplus Bell 202 modem - and a TTY35RO for a printer.
>
>> Nostalgia is a lovely country until you go there and visit.
>
> Nostalgia ain't what it used to be.
>
When they had the SF Worldcon here in 2009, I wrote somewehre about it. 
It included something like "the future is better than anticipated, but not 
nearly as good".  I should look up the exact quote.  IN some ways 
anticipating the future was exciting, living it is less so, even if we 
have so much more gadgetry than anyone imagined.

   Michael

On Wed, 27 Jun 2018 13:01:31 -0400, Michael Black <mbl...@pubnix.net>
wrote:

>On Wed, 27 Jun 2018, AndyW wrote:
>
>> On 27/06/2018 08:10, maus wrote:
>
>>> You can never go home!
>>
>>
>> I think a lot of people who get misty eyed over old computers have never 
>> tried to go back and use them.
>
>Maybe for many, but there are small groups who are really into the old 
>computers, not just collecting, but using them.  Actually, they are more 
>likely sticking with computers they started with when they were current. 
>It's nostalgia, but it's not anti-technology, they generally do have more 
>recent computers.  But they are the ones who keep the software available 
>or improve it, and create and buy new upgrades.  It's not a minor thing to 
>them.  I can sort of grasp it all, but I can't get as excited.
>
>>
>> I have been spoiled by GHz of speed, GB of memory, TB of disk space and 
>> Mega-mega pixels of screen resolutions.
>> Compilation time of a few seconds is not the same as setting the program to 
>> compile and popping off to the pub.
>>
>I first tried C on a Radio Shack Color Computer, I guess by then it was 
>the III maybe with 512K or RAM (I may not have had the upgrade when I got 
>C) and only 2 5.25" floppy drives.
>
>It was painful, and I had no other experience to compare it to.  I'd type 
>in a program, leaving endless errors since I was just starting, and it 
>would take it's time to compile even a short program, and then a long 
>stream of error messages.  I soon gave up on C.
>
>But yes, even on a 1GHz computer with 512K or RAM circa 2005, I tried C 
>again and it was snappy.  A short program would compile in no time, it was 
>like running a BASIC program on a 1MHz computer.  It makes so much 
>difference.
>
>   Michael

I fired up my Amiga A3000 around 10-12 years ago. I worked fine.
Couldn't get on the Internet though. No external modem, and likely no
dial-up available. But it did other things I wanted to do.

Scott <nob...@example.org> wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Jun 2018 21:08:31 +0100, Gareth's Downstairs Computer
> <headstone255.but.n...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
>> controlled by in-line groups of pixels. Did a bit of machine code
>> programming (NOT assembler  :-(  ) which meant every so often inserting
>> a sequence of 3 NOPs in case of having to patch in a jump to sort
>> a problem.
> 
> I did that once or twice, though mainly as an exercise. If the 6809
> had microcode it was on a level I didn't understand, so in my case it
> was more like manual assembly than actual machine coding.
> 
>> Early in my career, all systems came with a complete hardware manual
>> including all the registers in I/O, so these days feel a little bit lost
>> / swimming out of my depth / fighting blind when so  little info is
>> around today.
>> 
>> The Small Computer Handbook for the PDP8/E wsa a good example of an
>> informatie manual!
> 
> In a sense I think tech's complexity has outpaced my ability to keep
> up with it. The 6809 assembly handbook was about this >-< thick,
> something you could leaf through in a few hours and get the gist of
> it, if not all the details. The 8086 book was maybe twice as thick, or
> a bit less. Then the 286, 386, 486, 32 then 64 bits, on and on until I
> though I was back in the AS/400 lab with its entire wall covered in
> books. It gets to the point that sane people back away and adapt to
> using prefab tools that digest all this arcana and present it in neat,
> usable, pre-digested libraries.
> 
> I used to write libraries, back when I was crazy enough to get away
> with it. Now I just use others' libraries, which must mean I've gone
> sane. How boring is that?
> 

I enjoyed (enjoy) writing the runtime library for Iron Spring PL/I. So far
I haven't tried to do particularly fancy coding, I'm more concerned with
getting things right, with the optimizations later. Lately I've been
working on the preprocessor, which has its own set of challenges.

-- 
Pete

Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
> On 27 Jun 2018 11:49:27 GMT
> Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
> 
>> On 2018-06-27, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
>>> On 27 Jun 2018 10:04:38 GMT
>>> Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> On 2018-06-27, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
>>> 
>>>>> It would be a very sad thing if things in the computing world
>>>>> weren't much much better than they were thirty years ago given the
>>>>> way the underlying technology has been improving.
>>>> 
>>>> There's much that hasn't changed, though. It just got faster.
>>> 
>>> Sure but faster like the difference between a bicycle and a
>>> scramjet.
>> 
>> Sure, but when I peered over the shoulders of my colleagues across the
>> aisle, yes, they were running tcp3270 sessions on PCs instead of gigantic
>> 3270 monitors, but ISPF/TSO looked *exactly* the same as it did 43 years
>> ago when I saw it for the first time.
> 
> 	I'd like to hope it's a case of "if it ain't broke don't fix it",
> but it's probably inertia.
> 

A lot of stuff has been done behind the scenes, such as popup menus if you
want them, to provide a more GUI-like environment.

-- 
Pete

Michael Black <mbl...@pubnix.net> wrote:
> On Wed, 27 Jun 2018, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> 
>> On 2018-06-27, AndyW <An...@nojunqmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> I think a lot of people who get misty eyed over old computers have never
>>> tried to go back and use them.
>>> I used to use a pr1me system at university and I was in awe of it.
>>> I had the chance to use one a few years ago and it is rubbish. Similarly
>>> I dug out an old CP/M machine and it is not at all as much fun how I
>>> remembered it.
>> 
>> Last year I cleaned the rat droppings out of my IMSAI, re-formed the
>> electrolytics, and powered it up.  Unfortunately, the boot EPROM has
>> suffered bit rot.  Someday, in my copious free time (hah!), I'm going
>> to find the BIOS listing and an EPROM programmer (and cobble together
>> that hack that lets you use a 2716 in place of a 2708, which is
>> almost impossible to find or program these days) and get CP/M running.
>> 
>>> I have been spoiled by GHz of speed, GB of memory, TB of disk space and
>>> Mega-mega pixels of screen resolutions.
>> 
>> Not to mention emulations that would run rings around those old machines.
>> 
>>> Compilation time of a few seconds is not the same as setting the program
>>> to compile and popping off to the pub.
>> 
>> I remember that.  Two consumer-grade reel-to-reel tape units with hacked
>> motor circuits, fed by a surplus Bell 202 modem - and a TTY35RO for a printer.
>> 
>>> Nostalgia is a lovely country until you go there and visit.
>> 
>> Nostalgia ain't what it used to be.
>> 
> When they had the SF Worldcon here in 2009, I wrote somewehre about it. 
> It included something like "the future is better than anticipated, but not 
> nearly as good".  I should look up the exact quote.  IN some ways 
> anticipating the future was exciting, living it is less so, even if we 
> have so much more gadgetry than anyone imagined.

When you imagine it you swoon over all the great stuff the future will
bring, but tend to ignore the problems. Few imagining todays "social media"
probably considered the privacy problems ant the proliferation of
advertising.


-- 
Pete

nob...@example.org (Scott) writes:

> In a sense I think tech's complexity has outpaced my ability to keep
> up with it. 

You are not alone.

> The 6809 assembly handbook was about this >-< thick,
> something you could leaf through in a few hours and get the gist of
> it, if not all the details. The 8086 book was maybe twice as thick, or
> a bit less. Then the 286, 386, 486, 32 then 64 bits, on and on until I
> though I was back in the AS/400 lab with its entire wall covered in
> books. It gets to the point that sane people back away and adapt to
> using prefab tools that digest all this arcana and present it in neat,
> usable, pre-digested libraries.

Even people who might be expected to know how something works are
content to whap a software package into a server and never know
exactly what it's doing or what they've done.

When the ISP from which I get my dialup service changed the company
that provided them which actual physical service -- servers, data
lines and so on -- the new guys just whapped in (presumably
recognized, well-known) software packages.  This broke both the
existing password database and the PPP authentication protocol.  After
breaking through the "restart Windoes" stupidity of the front-line
support, talking to the putative techies who actually ran the servers,
I was never able to learn from them what the problems were.  Some
inadvertent remarks from them and a lot of my own time reading arcane
crap allowed *me* to fix or work around their problem.

Wrfhf, I'm an artist, a blacksmith and gardener but the alleged pros
are now so far removed from basics that I have to reconstruct  what
they should know from scratch and deduce what they should think of
effortlessly.  Shpx.


Okay, it's a minirant.  'Cause I'm presently engaged in yet another
such encounter with Inter.net & Fibernetics.  Their telecom line is
broken so I should reboot my computer. Grumble.

-- 
Mike Spencer                  Nova Scotia, Canada

On Wed, 27 Jun 2018 17:42:54 -0300, Mike Spencer wrote:

> nob...@example.org (Scott) writes:
> Okay, it's a minirant.  'Cause I'm presently engaged in yet another such
> encounter with Inter.net & Fibernetics.  Their telecom line is broken so
> I should reboot my computer. Grumble.

So glad my ISP is intelligent. Ring up and ask for tech support and they 
put you through to a real techie.

-- 
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

On Wed, 27 Jun 2018 12:59:50 -0500, JimP wrote:
>
> I fired up my Amiga A3000 around 10-12 years ago. I worked fine.
> Couldn't get on the Internet though. No external modem, and likely no
> dial-up available. But it did other things I wanted to do.

I seem to recall you need a certain OS (3.9?) to have a TCP/IP stack to
natively connect to the internet.
-- 
Andreas

My random toughts and comments
https://news-commentaries.blogspot.com/

On 2018-06-27, Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> wrote:

> On Wed, 27 Jun 2018 12:59:50 -0500, JimP wrote:
>
>> I fired up my Amiga A3000 around 10-12 years ago. I worked fine.
>> Couldn't get on the Internet though. No external modem, and likely
>> no dial-up available. But it did other things I wanted to do.
>
> I seem to recall you need a certain OS (3.9?) to have a TCP/IP stack
> to natively connect to the internet.

I ran AmiTCP on 3.1 - first with dialup, then as a full-fledged
network device once I added an A2065 Ethernet adapter.

-- 
/~\  cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ /  I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
 X   Top-posted messages will probably be ignored.  See RFC1855.
/ \  Fight low-contrast text in web pages!  http://contrastrebellion.com

On Wed, 27 Jun 2018 17:12:56 -0400, Andreas Kohlbach
<a...@spamfence.net> wrote:

>On Wed, 27 Jun 2018 12:59:50 -0500, JimP wrote:
>>
>> I fired up my Amiga A3000 around 10-12 years ago. I worked fine.
>> Couldn't get on the Internet though. No external modem, and likely no
>> dial-up available. But it did other things I wanted to do.
>
>I seem to recall you need a certain OS (3.9?) to have a TCP/IP stack to
>natively connect to the internet.

There might be an internal modem for it, or an Ethernet card, but I
used a 16.xK dial up modem. Not sure what happened to the modem. That
was several moves ago. I don't remember what version of AmigaDOS I had
on it, maybe 4.x

Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> writes:

> Michael Black <mbl...@pubnix.net> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 27 Jun 2018, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>> 
>>> Nostalgia ain't what it used to be.
>> 
>> When they had the SF Worldcon here in 2009, I wrote somewehre about
>> it.  It included something like "the future is better than
>> anticipated, but not nearly as good".  I should look up the exact
>> quote.  IN some ways anticipating the future was exciting, living
>> it is less so, even if we have so much more gadgetry than anyone
>> imagined.

New Year's day, 1949.  Did Dick have his radio watch by then?

    http://home.tallships.ca/mspencer/temp/tracy.jpg
 
> When you imagine it you swoon over all the great stuff the future
> will bring, but tend to ignore the problems. Few imagining todays
> "social media" probably considered the privacy problems ant the
> proliferation of advertising.

Gee, I dunno.  Swoon?  I got a computer as soon as I could afford one,
actually by trading fancy metalwork for an obsolete one because fancy
metalwork isn't, in my neck of the woods, a way to get heaps of cash.
Oh, and a modem pretty early on, too.  And Wikipedia is just great for
subjects that nobody's having bunfight or in a personal snit over.

But all the new gadgets?  Most of them leave me cold. After every
browser upgrade (or Emacs upgrade, for that matter) I spend a lot of
time figuring out how to disable all the new features.  I was getting
pretty good with a 35mm SLR but now I'm reduced to the equivalent of
ny 1955 Brownie Hawkeye or else a pricey camera that takes 10 minutes
and good eyesight just to set up all the options for a shot.

I guess I should get a cell phone pretty soon.  Old guy, y'know, can
no longer be sure of walking home from anywhere in any weather and all
the pay phones are gone.  Digital house?  Um, will it chuck another
bolt of wood into the kitchen range or replace the leathers in my hand
pump when needed?  My electric toaster is 115 years old, gets used
daily in summer.  Don't think I need a digital one.


-- 
Mike Spencer                  Nova Scotia, Canada

Bob Eager <news...@eager.cx> writes:

> On Wed, 27 Jun 2018 17:42:54 -0300, Mike Spencer wrote:
> 
>> nob...@example.org (Scott) writes:
>> Okay, it's a minirant.  'Cause I'm presently engaged in yet another such
>> encounter with Inter.net & Fibernetics.  Their telecom line is broken so
>> I should reboot my computer. Grumble.
> 
> So glad my ISP is intelligent. Ring up and ask for tech support and they 
> put you through to a real techie.

Yes, nice isn't it?  We have *two* ISPs.  I mentioned the problematic
one by name lest word get back to the *other* one that I was slagging
them.  At other one, Tallships.ca, I can phone the sys admin or get
quick email response.  Problems go away or at least are correctly
identified and attended to.

Why two ISPs?  Long, mostly boring story that can be papered over with
the convenient phrase from Unix documentation: "...for historical
reasons..." 

-- 
Mike Spencer                  Nova Scotia, Canada

On 27 Jun 2018 17:42:54 -0300, Mike Spencer
<mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:

>Even people who might be expected to know how something works are
>content to whap a software package into a server and never know
>exactly what it's doing or what they've done.

Voodoo administration. I actually get paid for something like that,
but it involves expensive industry specific software with all kinds of
DRM that's deliberately dense and not made to be understood. It's
scary that I can keep things working without really understanding how,
and scarier still that this meager knowledge is somehow valuable
enough to earn me a living wage. I can't tell if my job's at risk
because I can't explain what I do, or if I'm safe because nobody else
can figure it out either.

My ISP recently had the opposite problem. A yound admin wrote some
custom scripts to get specific web server behavior, and unsurprisingly
broke some other things. 500s popping up where no 500s had any
business happening. I pointed out that the desired behavior was built
into the base web server and just needed to be turned on in the config
file. Surprise, it works fine that way. I mean, it's Apache...if what
you want to do isn't already in there, you need to think harder about
what you want to do.

On Wed, 28 Jun 2018, Mike Spencer wrote:

>
> Bob Eager <news...@eager.cx> writes:
>
>> On Wed, 27 Jun 2018 17:42:54 -0300, Mike Spencer wrote:
>>
>>> nob...@example.org (Scott) writes:
>>> Okay, it's a minirant.  'Cause I'm presently engaged in yet another such
>>> encounter with Inter.net & Fibernetics.  Their telecom line is broken so
>>> I should reboot my computer. Grumble.
>>
>> So glad my ISP is intelligent. Ring up and ask for tech support and they
>> put you through to a real techie.
>
> Yes, nice isn't it?  We have *two* ISPs.  I mentioned the problematic
> one by name lest word get back to the *other* one that I was slagging
> them.  At other one, Tallships.ca, I can phone the sys admin or get
> quick email response.  Problems go away or at least are correctly
> identified and attended to.
>
The Tall Ship people must be annoyed that someone claimed the URL for an 
ISP, leaving the Tall Ships in need of some other URL.  Kind of like USR 
taking the name to sell modems, and never a robot in sight (unless the 
ones putting the modems together).

It was out of my hands, but since 2012 there's been high speed here, so 
I'm not with my third ISP.  When I signed up there, one of the owners 
dropped by with the form, and waited while I filled it out, it was the 
second oldest ISP in town.  Most of those small ISPs are gone, either out 
of business or bought up by a bigger fish.  I actually am still with that 
ISP, not for access but for my webpage and email, and if I'm stuck I can 
use shell access there.

Most of those old ISPs are gone, some just got too big, and that's where 
we've lost that personal aspect.

   Michael

On 2018-06-28, Michael Black <mbl...@pubnix.net> wrote:
> On Wed, 28 Jun 2018, Mike Spencer wrote:
>
> It was out of my hands, but since 2012 there's been high speed here, so 
> I'm not with my third ISP.  When I signed up there, one of the owners 
> dropped by with the form, and waited while I filled it out, it was the 
> second oldest ISP in town.  Most of those small ISPs are gone, either out 
> of business or bought up by a bigger fish.  I actually am still with that 
> ISP, not for access but for my webpage and email, and if I'm stuck I can 
> use shell access there.
>
> Most of those old ISPs are gone, some just got too big, and that's where 
> we've lost that personal aspect.
>
>    Michael

It might cause idiotic gossip to start again, but in case anyone has 
been trapped in the tundra, Bill Clinton and a ghost writer have produced a
book. Universally plonked, "The President is Missing", now, one at a
time.


-- 
greymaus.ireland.ie
Will Rant for Food

On 2018-06-28, Michael Black <mbl...@pubnix.net> wrote:

> The Tall Ship people must be annoyed that someone claimed the URL for an 
> ISP, leaving the Tall Ships in need of some other URL.  Kind of like USR 
> taking the name to sell modems, and never a robot in sight (unless the 
> ones putting the modems together).

Susan Calvin must be steamed...

> It was out of my hands, but since 2012 there's been high speed here, so 
> I'm not with my third ISP.  When I signed up there, one of the owners 
> dropped by with the form, and waited while I filled it out, it was the 
> second oldest ISP in town.  Most of those small ISPs are gone, either out 
> of business or bought up by a bigger fish.  I actually am still with that 
> ISP, not for access but for my webpage and email, and if I'm stuck I can 
> use shell access there.

That's how I hang on to my e-mail address.  It's just too good to give up.

> Most of those old ISPs are gone, some just got too big, and that's where 
> we've lost that personal aspect.

Yup.  Now almost everyone is something like jdo...@monopoly.com.

-- 
/~\  cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ /  I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
 X   Top-posted messages will probably be ignored.  See RFC1855.
/ \  Fight low-contrast text in web pages!  http://contrastrebellion.com

On 28 Jun 2018 16:52:40 GMT
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:

> Yup.  Now almost everyone is something like jdo...@monopoly.com.

	They get their email from Hasbro ?

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN                                     | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

Michael Black <mbl...@pubnix.net> writes:

> The Tall Ship people must be annoyed that someone claimed the URL for an 
> ISP, leaving the Tall Ships in need of some other URL. 

They still have tallships.COM. We have .CA.  Never heard that the
(late) founder of tallships.ca  ever got any flak.

> Kind of like USR taking the name to sell modems, and never a robot
> in sight (unless the ones putting the modems together).
> [snip]

-- 
Mike Spencer                  Nova Scotia, Canada

On 28 Jun 2018 18:31:09 GMT
Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:

> On 2018-06-28, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
> > On 28 Jun 2018 16:52:40 GMT
> > Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >> Yup.  Now almost everyone is something like jdo...@monopoly.com.
> >
> > 	They get their email from Hasbro ?
> 
> *applause*
> 
> I'm talking to a local community broadband supplier about getting
> 1Gbps symmetrical fibre to the premises. I asked whether they provide
> an email forwarding service, to which their reply was "go to Google".

	With 1G symmetrical I'd be inclined to go for DIY, but then I went
for that with 70/6 LTE with backup MX from junkemailfilter.com (they do
free MX backup to get more data for their paid spam filtering service).

> In fact, their reply to everything was "go to Google".

	Bletch.

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN                                     | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

On 28 Jun 2018 18:31:09 GMT, Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:

>On 2018-06-28, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
>> On 28 Jun 2018 16:52:40 GMT
>> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> Yup.  Now almost everyone is something like jdo...@monopoly.com.
>>
>> 	They get their email from Hasbro ?
>
>*applause*
>
>I'm talking to a local community broadband supplier about getting
>1Gbps symmetrical fibre to the premises. I asked whether they provide
>an email forwarding service, to which their reply was "go to Google".
>
>In fact, their reply to everything was "go to Google".
>
>More stuff for Google to spy on.
>
>:o(

I use duckduckgo.com, but they say they don't track... I have wondered
if that is true or not.

On Thu, 28 Jun 2018 20:53:24 +0100, Ahem A Rivet's Shot
<ste...@eircom.net> wrote:

>On 28 Jun 2018 18:31:09 GMT
>Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 2018-06-28, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
>> > On 28 Jun 2018 16:52:40 GMT
>> > Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Yup.  Now almost everyone is something like jdo...@monopoly.com.
>> >
>> > 	They get their email from Hasbro ?
>> 
>> *applause*
>> 
>> I'm talking to a local community broadband supplier about getting
>> 1Gbps symmetrical fibre to the premises. I asked whether they provide
>> an email forwarding service, to which their reply was "go to Google".
>
>	With 1G symmetrical I'd be inclined to go for DIY, but then I went
>for that with 70/6 LTE with backup MX from junkemailfilter.com (they do
>free MX backup to get more data for their paid spam filtering service).
>
>> In fact, their reply to everything was "go to Google".
>
>	Bletch.

My brother-in-law called his ISP for tech support, to get back online.

The morons told him to go to their web page.

His reply was, "How can I get to your web page, if I cannot get
online?"

Repeat, rinse, repeat.

He got the corporate office on his cell, and told them the problem.
Presto. His Internet connection came back up.

On Thu, 28 Jun 2018, Mike Spencer wrote:

>
> Michael Black <mbl...@pubnix.net> writes:
>
>> The Tall Ship people must be annoyed that someone claimed the URL for an
>> ISP, leaving the Tall Ships in need of some other URL.
>
> They still have tallships.COM. We have .CA.  Never heard that the
> (late) founder of tallships.ca  ever got any flak.
>
I'm teasing, but it's interesting that someone used the name for an ISP.

We were supposed to get some tall ships here last summer for the 150th, 
but either they never showed up, or no proper announcements.  I know I 
went to The Old Port at one point, and never found a ship that was 
supposed to be in town.

For about three years a decade back, we had an actual "Tall Ships 
Festival" in the fall, but it was clear the ships were available because 
they were at some other event elsewhere, so might as well stop here in 
Montreal.  Then it stopped, no explanation.  We're back to random ships 
sometimes appearing, and usually I read about them in the paper after the 
fact.

We did get the Viking Ship two years ago (it was a re-creation, sailed 
over from Norway or Denmark), I went down and I could see it 
but they weren't open to visitors that day, and I never got back.

The Old Port here used to have a page about visiting ships, but I never 
find when tall ships are in port.

   Michael

On Thu, 28 Jun 2018 15:43:52 -0500, JimP <solo...@gmail.com> wrote:

>My brother-in-law called his ISP for tech support, to get back online.
>
>The morons told him to go to their web page.
>
>His reply was, "How can I get to your web page, if I cannot get
>online?"

There's a hole in the bucket, dear Liza, dear Liza....

On 2018-06-28, JimP <solo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 28 Jun 2018 18:31:09 GMT, Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
>
>>On 2018-06-28, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
>>> On 28 Jun 2018 16:52:40 GMT
>>> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Yup.  Now almost everyone is something like jdo...@monopoly.com.
>>>
>>> 	They get their email from Hasbro ?
>>
>>*applause*
>>
>>I'm talking to a local community broadband supplier about getting
>>1Gbps symmetrical fibre to the premises. I asked whether they provide
>>an email forwarding service, to which their reply was "go to Google".
>>
>>In fact, their reply to everything was "go to Google".
>>
>>More stuff for Google to spy on.
>>
>>:o(
>
> I use duckduckgo.com, but they say they don't track... I have wondered
> if that is true or not.

Very unlikely. Try to search for "dynamite, fuse, etc" and see what
happens. Actually,get a timer going and report back here how long before
the Stasi arrive,


-- 
greymaus.ireland.ie
Will Rant for Food

On 29/06/2018 01:45, Scott wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Jun 2018 15:43:52 -0500, JimP <solo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> My brother-in-law called his ISP for tech support, to get back online.
>>
>> The morons told him to go to their web page.
>>
>> His reply was, "How can I get to your web page, if I cannot get
>> online?"
> 
> There's a hole in the bucket, dear Liza, dear Liza....
> 

Bring back the radio show, Children's Favourites, from 10 till 12 noon
on Saturday mornings!

Gareth's Downstairs Computer
<headstone255.but.n...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 29/06/2018 01:45, Scott wrote:
>> On Thu, 28 Jun 2018 15:43:52 -0500, JimP <solo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> My brother-in-law called his ISP for tech support, to get back online.
>>> 
>>> The morons told him to go to their web page.
>>> 
>>> His reply was, "How can I get to your web page, if I cannot get
>>> online?"
>> 
>> There's a hole in the bucket, dear Liza, dear Liza....
>> 
> 
> Bring back the radio show, Children's Favourites, from 10 till 12 noon
> on Saturday mornings!
> 

I still have fond memories of sitting in front of the huge Philco listening
to the " Story Lady." Sirius has a channel that airs old radio plays.
Interesting - my spell checker doesn't like "Philco."

-- 
Pete

On Friday, June 29, 2018 at 6:19:48 AM UTC-4, Peter Flass wrote:
> Gareth's Downstairs Computer
> <headstone255.but.n...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > On 29/06/2018 01:45, Scott wrote:
> >> On Thu, 28 Jun 2018 15:43:52 -0500, JimP <solo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> 
> >>> My brother-in-law called his ISP for tech support, to get back online.
> >>> 
> >>> The morons told him to go to their web page.
> >>> 
> >>> His reply was, "How can I get to your web page, if I cannot get
> >>> online?"
> >> 
> >> There's a hole in the bucket, dear Liza, dear Liza....
> >> 
> > 
> > Bring back the radio show, Children's Favourites, from 10 till 12 noon
> > on Saturday mornings!
> > 
> 
> I still have fond memories of sitting in front of the huge Philco listening
> to the " Story Lady." Sirius has a channel that airs old radio plays.
> Interesting - my spell checker doesn't like "Philco."

https://books.google.com/books?id=VUEEAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA1&dq=life%20philco&pg=PA1#v=onepage&q&f=false

https://books.google.com/books?id=700EAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PP1&dq=life%20philco&pg=PA1#v=onepage&q&f=false

On Fri, 29 Jun 2018 15:49:01 -0400
Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> wrote:

> On 29 Jun 2018 07:01:30 GMT, maus wrote:
> >
> > On 2018-06-28, JimP <solo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> I use duckduckgo.com, but they say they don't track... I have wondered
> >> if that is true or not.
> 
> I get way different search results when using Google here. Google's
> results are closer to what I am searching for.

	Which is why I use startpage - which is basically a Google proxy
so as far as Google is concerned I'm a tiny fraction of a searcher in
the Netherlands with seriously eclectic interests. Startpage also claim not
to log anything.

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN                                     | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

On 2018-06-29, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
> On Fri, 29 Jun 2018 15:49:01 -0400
> Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> wrote:
>
>> On 29 Jun 2018 07:01:30 GMT, maus wrote:
>> >
>> > On 2018-06-28, JimP <solo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I use duckduckgo.com, but they say they don't track... I have wondered
>> >> if that is true or not.
>> 
>> I get way different search results when using Google here. Google's
>> results are closer to what I am searching for.
>
> 	Which is why I use startpage - which is basically a Google proxy
> so as far as Google is concerned I'm a tiny fraction of a searcher in
> the Netherlands with seriously eclectic interests. Startpage also claim not
> to log anything.
>
I would doubt that any of them do really not log anything


Years ago, I was standing at a counter demanding to see my records.
Eventually, after hearing that I would have to pay for printing them
("Yes"), come back next weel, when they would be ready( "No."), the big
bull of the pampas arrived out to speak with me.

"We can show you most of the records, not all."

"Who decides what I can see?."

"I do."

I have heard of a child doctor absently writing on the child's record as
he made reassuring sounds to the Mother. The nurse standing by his side
saw he had codes, as so.

SM. Stupid Mother
VSM Very stupid Mother
ISM Incredibly stupid Mother

That had to stop when the patients got real access to their records.

Night, All.





-- 
greymaus.ireland.ie
Will Rant for Food

nob...@example.org (Scott) writes:

> On 27 Jun 2018 17:42:54 -0300, Mike Spencer
> <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
> 
>> Even people who might be expected to know how something works are
>> content to whap a software package into a server and never know
>> exactly what it's doing or what they've done.
> 
> Voodoo administration. I actually get paid for something like that,
> but it involves expensive industry specific software with all kinds of
> DRM that's deliberately dense and not made to be understood. It's
> scary that I can keep things working without really understanding how,
> and scarier still that this meager knowledge is somehow valuable
> enough to earn me a living wage. I can't tell if my job's at risk
> because I can't explain what I do, or if I'm safe because nobody else
> can figure it out either.

Yow.  Sounds like a science fiction story.  My febrile imagination
says neither you nor any cow orkers you know have any idea what the
business does.  You go to work on a private windowless subway car so
you don't even know where it is.  Once a week there's a long rant over
the PA system in a language you can't identify, full of alien clicks
and sibilants.  And just once, you found what looked like a surgical
instrument for getting at the midbrain dropped behind the trash can in
the men's room.

No?  Oh, well, must be weird anyhow.

-- 
Mike Spencer                  Nova Scotia, Canada

On 30 Jun 2018 00:12:45 -0300, Mike Spencer
<mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:

>
>nob...@example.org (Scott) writes:
>
>> Voodoo administration. I actually get paid for something like that,
>> but it involves expensive industry specific software with all kinds of
>> DRM that's deliberately dense and not made to be understood. It's
>> scary that I can keep things working without really understanding how,
>> and scarier still that this meager knowledge is somehow valuable
>> enough to earn me a living wage. I can't tell if my job's at risk
>> because I can't explain what I do, or if I'm safe because nobody else
>> can figure it out either.
>
>Yow.  Sounds like a science fiction story.  My febrile imagination
>says neither you nor any cow orkers you know have any idea what the
>business does.  You go to work on a private windowless subway car so
>you don't even know where it is.  Once a week there's a long rant over
>the PA system in a language you can't identify, full of alien clicks
>and sibilants.  And just once, you found what looked like a surgical
>instrument for getting at the midbrain dropped behind the trash can in
>the men's room.

Well, my job takes place at a public institute of higher learning. If
there's a PA system there, it doesn't work, but aside from that I
can't say much else with any real confidence. The sunshine outside
seems real enough most days.