🚀 go-pugleaf

On Fri, 19 Jan 2018 14:21:55 -0800 (PST), hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:

>In March 1947, Boys Life ran an article on the future of 
>walkie-talkies.  It combined both two-way radio and mobile
>telephones.  It appears they were talking about a pre-cursor
>to Citizens Band.
>
>When this article was written, I don't think the transistor was
>invented yet.  None the less, the author spoke of big improvements
>in miniaturization to come.  At that time, they had developed
>"peanut" vacuum tubes that saved space.
>
>article at:
>https://books.google.com/books?id=EZF2obvg0RwC&lpg=PA27&dq=boys%20life%20'mobile%20phone'&pg=PA7#v=onepage&q&f=false

About 1960 we got a visit from NASA at my junior high school. They
showed the progression from large vacuum tubes/valves, to 4 small dots
that were a computer. Remembering back, the first tube looked like a
diode. Peanut tubes were part of it.

They had to use a projector of some sort to show them up on a large
screen. I don't remember what they said, other than the 4 dots were
going to be part of the space ships going up to orbit.
 

On Friday, January 19, 2018 at 7:11:33 PM UTC-5, JimP wrote:

> About 1960 we got a visit from NASA at my junior high school. They
> showed the progression from large vacuum tubes/valves, to 4 small dots
> that were a computer. Remembering back, the first tube looked like a
> diode. Peanut tubes were part of it.

Years ago, both government and industry would routinely send
out speakers to schools and clubs, along with a film, to 
pitch what their agencies were doing.  Is that still done?

On Sat, 20 Jan 2018 12:07:24 -0800 (PST), hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:

>On Friday, January 19, 2018 at 7:11:33 PM UTC-5, JimP wrote:
>
>> About 1960 we got a visit from NASA at my junior high school. They
>> showed the progression from large vacuum tubes/valves, to 4 small dots
>> that were a computer. Remembering back, the first tube looked like a
>> diode. Peanut tubes were part of it.
>
>Years ago, both government and industry would routinely send
>out speakers to schools and clubs, along with a film, to 
>pitch what their agencies were doing.  Is that still done?

There were also short films on tv, 'Industry on Parade'. The intro was
lots of factories belching smoke and fumes.

I haven't heard of any, but I don't have kids.

On 2018-01-21, JimP <solo...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, 20 Jan 2018 12:07:24 -0800 (PST), hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>
>> On Friday, January 19, 2018 at 7:11:33 PM UTC-5, JimP wrote:
>>
>>> About 1960 we got a visit from NASA at my junior high school. They
>>> showed the progression from large vacuum tubes/valves, to 4 small dots
>>> that were a computer. Remembering back, the first tube looked like a
>>> diode. Peanut tubes were part of it.
>>
>> Years ago, both government and industry would routinely send
>> out speakers to schools and clubs, along with a film, to 
>> pitch what their agencies were doing.  Is that still done?
>
> There were also short films on tv, 'Industry on Parade'. The intro was
> lots of factories belching smoke and fumes.

Don't forget the factory whistle - that was its signature sound.

> I haven't heard of any, but I don't have kids.

Me neither.

-- 
/~\  cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ /  I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
 X   Top-posted messages will probably be ignored.  See RFC1855.
/ \  HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored.  Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!

On 21 Jan 2018 08:24:04 GMT, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
wrote:

>On 2018-01-21, JimP <solo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 20 Jan 2018 12:07:24 -0800 (PST), hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>
>>> On Friday, January 19, 2018 at 7:11:33 PM UTC-5, JimP wrote:
>>>
>>>> About 1960 we got a visit from NASA at my junior high school. They
>>>> showed the progression from large vacuum tubes/valves, to 4 small dots
>>>> that were a computer. Remembering back, the first tube looked like a
>>>> diode. Peanut tubes were part of it.
>>>
>>> Years ago, both government and industry would routinely send
>>> out speakers to schools and clubs, along with a film, to 
>>> pitch what their agencies were doing.  Is that still done?
>>
>> There were also short films on tv, 'Industry on Parade'. The intro was
>> lots of factories belching smoke and fumes.
>
>Don't forget the factory whistle - that was its signature sound.

I remember that, and some having what sounded like heavy machinery
moving or maybe a train.

JimP wrote:
> On Sat, 20 Jan 2018 12:07:24 -0800 (PST), hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>
>>On Friday, January 19, 2018 at 7:11:33 PM UTC-5, JimP wrote:
>>
>>> About 1960 we got a visit from NASA at my junior high school. They
>>> showed the progression from large vacuum tubes/valves, to 4 small dots
>>> that were a computer. Remembering back, the first tube looked like a
>>> diode. Peanut tubes were part of it.
>>
>>Years ago, both government and industry would routinely send
>>out speakers to schools and clubs, along with a film, to
>>pitch what their agencies were doing.  Is that still done?
>
> There were also short films on tv, 'Industry on Parade'. The intro was
> lots of factories belching smoke and fumes.

I loved to watch those.

>
> I haven't heard of any, but I don't have kids.

When I was a kid, we went to see the work being done.

/BAH

On 21 Jan 2018 16:22:26 GMT, jmfbahciv <See....@aol.com> wrote:

>JimP wrote:
>> On Sat, 20 Jan 2018 12:07:24 -0800 (PST), hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>
>>>On Friday, January 19, 2018 at 7:11:33 PM UTC-5, JimP wrote:
>>>
>>>> About 1960 we got a visit from NASA at my junior high school. They
>>>> showed the progression from large vacuum tubes/valves, to 4 small dots
>>>> that were a computer. Remembering back, the first tube looked like a
>>>> diode. Peanut tubes were part of it.
>>>
>>>Years ago, both government and industry would routinely send
>>>out speakers to schools and clubs, along with a film, to
>>>pitch what their agencies were doing.  Is that still done?
>>
>> There were also short films on tv, 'Industry on Parade'. The intro was
>> lots of factories belching smoke and fumes.
>
>I loved to watch those.
>
>>
>> I haven't heard of any, but I don't have kids.
>
>When I was a kid, we went to see the work being done.
>
>/BAH

Small town... no factories nearby. We did get to go see a honey store.
Bees could come into the store via a large clear plastic pipe from the
back wall into the room. It freaked some of us out. 

We were given small bottles of honey as samples. About 1 ounce, with a
honeycomb in it.

We also went on a day trip on one of the last steam locomotives in
service and two years we went to the circus.

On Saturday, January 20, 2018 at 8:48:47 PM UTC-5, JimP wrote:

> There were also short films on tv, 'Industry on Parade'. The intro was
> lots of factories belching smoke and fumes.

Until the 1960s, factories belching smoke were seen as a positive
thing--frequently shown in illustrations (even a 1940s IBM tab ad.)
Then air pollution became a concern and attitudes changed.

Steam locomotives were often depicted as billowing black smoke.
In reality, railroads disliked that because black smoke meant
the coal wasn't being burned efficiently.  A clear stack was
better--better combustion.

On Sunday, January 21, 2018 at 3:04:48 AM UTC-5, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> > There were also short films on tv, 'Industry on Parade'. The intro was
> > lots of factories belching smoke and fumes.
> 
> Don't forget the factory whistle - that was its signature sound.

I think those sort of things were shown in cartoons of the 1940s.

I seem to remember a cartoon factory whistle having a face and
putting his two fingers in his mouth for the sound.

(Side note--our public schools had IBM clocks with buzzers,
not bells, including a loud buzzer for the schoolyard.)

On 2018-01-23, hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com <hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:

> On Saturday, January 20, 2018 at 8:48:47 PM UTC-5, JimP wrote:
>
>> There were also short films on tv, 'Industry on Parade'. The intro was
>> lots of factories belching smoke and fumes.
>
> Until the 1960s, factories belching smoke were seen as a positive
> thing--frequently shown in illustrations (even a 1940s IBM tab ad.)

"Where there's smoke, there's work!"  -- Firesign Theatre

> Then air pollution became a concern and attitudes changed.
>
> Steam locomotives were often depicted as billowing black smoke.
> In reality, railroads disliked that because black smoke meant
> the coal wasn't being burned efficiently.  A clear stack was
> better--better combustion.

I inherited a photo from my father (a long-time railroad man)
of a train with three serially-coupled steam locomotives working
its way up the steep grade into the Crownest Pass.  It's an
amazing shot - the way smoke is blasting out of those stacks
you can almost feel the ground shake.  Apparently my father
saw the photo in a magazine and tracked down the photographer
so he could get a print from the original negative.

-- 
/~\  cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ /  I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
 X   Top-posted messages will probably be ignored.  See RFC1855.
/ \  HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored.  Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!

On Tuesday, January 23, 2018 at 4:27:06 PM UTC-5, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> I inherited a photo from my father (a long-time railroad man)
> of a train with three serially-coupled steam locomotives working
> its way up the steep grade into the Crownest Pass.  It's an
> amazing shot - the way smoke is blasting out of those stacks
> you can almost feel the ground shake.  Apparently my father
> saw the photo in a magazine and tracked down the photographer
> so he could get a print from the original negative.

Despite their limitations, steam locomotives had a romance 
that diesels never developed.  People love photos such as you
describe.  Many books published with stuff like that.  One
famous photographer, O Winston Link, has a museum.

The downside, from an economic point of view, was that yes, the
ground was indeed shaking from the reciprocating action of the 
wheel drivers.  That pounding took a toll on the rails and wayside
structures.  Diesels, using electric motors for traction, did not
have that degree of wear.

Further, despite their relative simplicity (compared to a diesel)
steam engines needed extensive maintenance.  They could only travel
a limited distance before needing to be removed from a train to
be serviced.  I think it was 500 miles, then maybe 1,000 miles.

Personally, I like all-electric locomotives (like Amtrak's NEC
corridor).  Back in the day, these had major advantages over steam
in dense territory, despite the cost of constructing wire and substations.
However, today, the diesel-electric locomotive offers most of the
advantages and the power supply for all-electrics has become very
expensive.  Amtrak is still basically using much of the 1930s PRR
system in the NEC, which is worn out.  It is also 25 Hz.

On 2018-01-23, hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com <hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:

> On Tuesday, January 23, 2018 at 4:27:06 PM UTC-5, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
>> I inherited a photo from my father (a long-time railroad man)
>> of a train with three serially-coupled steam locomotives working
>> its way up the steep grade into the Crownest Pass.  It's an
>> amazing shot - the way smoke is blasting out of those stacks
>> you can almost feel the ground shake.  Apparently my father
>> saw the photo in a magazine and tracked down the photographer
>> so he could get a print from the original negative.
>
> Despite their limitations, steam locomotives had a romance 
> that diesels never developed.  People love photos such as you
> describe.  Many books published with stuff like that.  One
> famous photographer, O Winston Link, has a museum.
>
> The downside, from an economic point of view, was that yes, the
> ground was indeed shaking from the reciprocating action of the 
> wheel drivers.  That pounding took a toll on the rails and wayside
> structures.  Diesels, using electric motors for traction, did not
> have that degree of wear.
>
> Further, despite their relative simplicity (compared to a diesel)
> steam engines needed extensive maintenance.  They could only travel
> a limited distance before needing to be removed from a train to
> be serviced.  I think it was 500 miles, then maybe 1,000 miles.

Yes, despite the romance of steam, my father said that diesel-electrics
were much better from a practical standpoint.

> Personally, I like all-electric locomotives (like Amtrak's NEC
> corridor).  Back in the day, these had major advantages over steam
> in dense territory, despite the cost of constructing wire and substations.
> However, today, the diesel-electric locomotive offers most of the
> advantages and the power supply for all-electrics has become very
> expensive.  Amtrak is still basically using much of the 1930s PRR
> system in the NEC, which is worn out.  It is also 25 Hz.

And no one is about to string electric wiring through the wilderness.

-- 
/~\  cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ /  I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
 X   Top-posted messages will probably be ignored.  See RFC1855.
/ \  HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored.  Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!

Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
> On 2018-01-24, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> 
> [27 lines snipped]
> 
>> Yes, despite the romance of steam, 
> 
> Which I have never understood. AFAIAC, they're inefficient, polluting,
> dirty, self propelled piles of scrap. Might as well get all misty
> eyed about meat safes and gas lighting.
> 
> Indeed, I have no interest whatsoever in how the railway service is
> implemented, other than that it is clean, comfortable, punctual and
> reasonably priced - a set of criteria which it seems signally unable
> to provide in most countries.
> 

It's similar with computer nostalgia. Certainly a small, quiet, fast laptop
is better than the old stuff, but we old guys get nostalgic for room-size
computers with lots of blinkenlights.

-- 
Pete

On 24/01/2018 14:22, Peter Flass wrote:
> 
> It's similar with computer nostalgia. Certainly a small, quiet, fast laptop
> is better than the old stuff, but we old guys get nostalgic for room-size
> computers with lots of blinkenlights.
> 

Might be too fast to see these days, but with blinkenlights you could 
see the progress of programs.

On 2018-01-24, Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
> On 2018-01-24, Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 2018-01-24, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>> 
>>> [27 lines snipped]
>>> 
>>>> Yes, despite the romance of steam, 
>>> 
>>> Which I have never understood. AFAIAC, they're inefficient, polluting,
>>> dirty, self propelled piles of scrap. Might as well get all misty
>>> eyed about meat safes and gas lighting.
>>> 
>>> Indeed, I have no interest whatsoever in how the railway service is
>>> implemented, other than that it is clean, comfortable, punctual and
>>> reasonably priced - a set of criteria which it seems signally unable
>>> to provide in most countries.
>>> 
>>
>> It's similar with computer nostalgia. Certainly a small, quiet, fast laptop
>> is better than the old stuff, but we old guys get nostalgic for room-size
>> computers with lots of blinkenlights.
>
> Good point. Chacun a son gout, as usual.
>
>

Victoria and Albert, many years ago, a crowd of men admiring an antique
car. Smithsonien, later, the same. Bakelite can't cut it, unless that
blinkenlights as in "War Games"``


-- 
greymaus.ireland.ie
Just_Another_Grumpy_Old_Man

On Wed, 24 Jan 2018 15:54:10 +0000, Huge wrote:

> On 2018-01-24, Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 2018-01-24, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>> 
>>> [27 lines snipped]
>>> 
>>>> Yes, despite the romance of steam,
>>> 
>>> Which I have never understood. AFAIAC, they're inefficient, polluting,
>>> dirty, self propelled piles of scrap. Might as well get all misty eyed
>>> about meat safes and gas lighting.
>>> 
>>> Indeed, I have no interest whatsoever in how the railway service is
>>> implemented, other than that it is clean, comfortable, punctual and
>>> reasonably priced - a set of criteria which it seems signally unable
>>> to provide in most countries.
>>> 
>>> 
>> It's similar with computer nostalgia. Certainly a small, quiet, fast
>> laptop is better than the old stuff, but we old guys get nostalgic for
>> room-size computers with lots of blinkenlights.
> 
> Good point. Chacun a son gout, as usual.

Although it doesn't hav ethat much practical use, this is my favourite, 
of the computers I own - probably because of the blinkenlights!

 http://www.tavi.co.uk/sbc6120.jpg

-- 
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

On Wednesday, January 24, 2018 at 9:22:47 AM UTC-5, Peter Flass wrote:

> >> Yes, despite the romance of steam, 

> It's similar with computer nostalgia. Certainly a small, quiet, fast laptop
> is better than the old stuff, but we old guys get nostalgic for room-size
> computers with lots of blinkenlights.


It is common in railroad facilities to find a picture on the wall
of an old train, a current calendar with old pictures, or an old
logo on the wall.  Likewise, there are numerous museums with both
static and actual-operating exhibits of trains and trolleys.
Steam engines are enormously expensive to keep running, but a 
number of places do so.

Conversely, personally, FWIW I've never knew of any nostalgia in
any I.T. facility, and the only I.T. people I know interested in 
computer history are those in this newsgroup.  The only computer
museum I know of is the one in California*, while there are many
train museums.  I had a few pictures of tab machines at my desk
and my co-workers thought it was foolish.

I've visited the IBM archives, and let's just say I never had a
problem finding a parking spot or had to wait in line.  (I don't
know about the Charles Babbage Institute).


*Hopefully I'll be able to visit that someday.

On 24/01/2018 20:45, Bob Eager wrote:
> 
> Although it doesn't hav ethat much practical use, this is my favourite,
> of the computers I own - probably because of the blinkenlights!
> 
>   http://www.tavi.co.uk/sbc6120.jpg

I've yet to assemble it (Never put off till tomorrow what
you can put off till the day after) but bought one of
these ...

http://obsolescence.wixsite.com/obsolescence/pidp-8

On Wed, 24 Jan 2018 13:37:00 -0800 (PST)
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:

> The only computer
> museum I know of is the one in California*,

	There's one in Seattle.

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN                                     | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

On Wed, 24 Jan 2018 13:37:00 -0800, hancock4 wrote:

> The only computer museum I know of is the
> one in California

National Museum of Computing in the UK. Small, but good.

-- 
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

In article <10019e38-01f7-496b...@googlegroups.com>,
 <hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>On Wednesday, January 24, 2018 at 9:22:47 AM UTC-5, Peter Flass wrote:
>
>> >> Yes, despite the romance of steam, 
>
>> It's similar with computer nostalgia. Certainly a small, quiet, fast laptop
>> is better than the old stuff, but we old guys get nostalgic for room-size
>> computers with lots of blinkenlights.

<snip>

>Conversely, personally, FWIW I've never knew of any nostalgia in
>any I.T. facility, and the only I.T. people I know interested in 
>computer history are those in this newsgroup.  The only computer
>museum I know of is the one in California*, while there are many
>train museums.  I had a few pictures of tab machines at my desk
>and my co-workers thought it was foolish.

Actually, there's a bit of nostalgia.  I think the folks that actually
laid hands on the old stuff (Field Service, Support Types, Operators) miss
the stuff... I think it's kind of like the old car collectors.

You want to get one of those things you used to love driving.

I'd love to have a 1970 Ford Maverick -- my first car at college, but it was 
far from a great or classic car...   Most've probably gone to rusty graves by
now.

I'd also love an 11/70 or 11/780... but not an 11/34 or 11/730.
So, I guess it's not the architecture alone, but the feel and sound of
the machine.  Cost is prohibitive on the first two... but I did get my 
daughter out with me at the Living Computer Museum last year in a trip to
Seattle.

I was amazed to watch her sitting down at a Kaypro and modifying some old 
Basic game.  She's been raised with Windows, Unix and Linux around 
and really took to the immediacy of making changes in Basic.

I convinced the tour guide to open up the 11/780 and KL doors so I could
see the microsequencer on the Vax running and show the kid how big the
KL was...

My retirement gig of choice would be part time tour guide at a computer museum.
Guess it's the History Major and Field Engineer mix in me.

I also found their info on the Interdata/Perkin-Elmer/Concurrent boxes was a 
bit light... But then, I worked there for a number of years and I'm
partial to boxes I actually worked with.

<hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 24, 2018 at 9:22:47 AM UTC-5, Peter Flass wrote:
> 
>>>> Yes, despite the romance of steam, 
> 
>> It's similar with computer nostalgia. Certainly a small, quiet, fast laptop
>> is better than the old stuff, but we old guys get nostalgic for room-size
>> computers with lots of blinkenlights.
> 
> 
> It is common in railroad facilities to find a picture on the wall
> of an old train, a current calendar with old pictures, or an old
> logo on the wall.  Likewise, there are numerous museums with both
> static and actual-operating exhibits of trains and trolleys.
> Steam engines are enormously expensive to keep running, but a 
> number of places do so.
> 
> Conversely, personally, FWIW I've never knew of any nostalgia in
> any I.T. facility, and the only I.T. people I know interested in 
> computer history are those in this newsgroup.  The only computer
> museum I know of is the one in California*, 

That's the best known, but there are lots, both in the US and Europe. I was
very unhappy when it moved from Boston to Cali.

> while there are many
> train museums.  I had a few pictures of tab machines at my desk
> and my co-workers thought it was foolish.
> 
> I've visited the IBM archives, and let's just say I never had a
> problem finding a parking spot or had to wait in line.  (I don't
> know about the Charles Babbage Institute).
> 

Does the Archives have much besides ...archives? Some of the colleges have
collections of stuff.


-- 
Pete

Gareth's Downstairs Computer
<headstone255.but.n...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 24/01/2018 20:45, Bob Eager wrote:
>> 
>> Although it doesn't hav ethat much practical use, this is my favourite,
>> of the computers I own - probably because of the blinkenlights!
>> 
>> http://www.tavi.co.uk/sbc6120.jpg
> 
> I've yet to assemble it (Never put off till tomorrow what
> you can put off till the day after) but bought one of
> these ...
> 
> http://obsolescence.wixsite.com/obsolescence/pidp-8
> 

For some reason the -8 seems to be more of an object of nostalgia than the
-11. I never warmed up to the -8, not so much because the instruction set
was limited but because a lot of it seemed so random.

-- 
Pete

On Thu, 25 Jan 2018 13:54:14 -0700, Peter Flass wrote:

> Gareth's Downstairs Computer
> <headstone255.but.n...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On 24/01/2018 20:45, Bob Eager wrote:
>>> 
>>> Although it doesn't hav ethat much practical use, this is my
>>> favourite,
>>> of the computers I own - probably because of the blinkenlights!
>>> 
>>> http://www.tavi.co.uk/sbc6120.jpg
>> 
>> I've yet to assemble it (Never put off till tomorrow what you can put
>> off till the day after) but bought one of these ...
>> 
>> http://obsolescence.wixsite.com/obsolescence/pidp-8
>> 
>> 
> For some reason the -8 seems to be more of an object of nostalgia than
> the -11. I never warmed up to the -8, not so much because the
> instruction set was limited but because a lot of it seemed so random.

I like the minimal instruction set.

I've had so much to do with PDP-11s (and the big -11s, aka VAXes) that 
the small, word oriented nature of the -8 makes a change. I always wanted 
to play with one, and now I can.

I wrote a lot of Macro-11 and Macro-32, not to mention compilers for 
those machines. And I own four -11s and three VAXes.

I really liked the -10. Want more time to play on that.



-- 
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

Bob Eager <news...@eager.cx> wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Jan 2018 13:54:14 -0700, Peter Flass wrote:
> 
>> Gareth's Downstairs Computer
>> <headstone255.but.n...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> On 24/01/2018 20:45, Bob Eager wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Although it doesn't hav ethat much practical use, this is my
>>>> favourite,
>>>> of the computers I own - probably because of the blinkenlights!
>>>> 
>>>> http://www.tavi.co.uk/sbc6120.jpg
>>> 
>>> I've yet to assemble it (Never put off till tomorrow what you can put
>>> off till the day after) but bought one of these ...
>>> 
>>> http://obsolescence.wixsite.com/obsolescence/pidp-8
>>> 
>>> 
>> For some reason the -8 seems to be more of an object of nostalgia than
>> the -11. I never warmed up to the -8, not so much because the
>> instruction set was limited but because a lot of it seemed so random.
> 
> I like the minimal instruction set.
> 
> I've had so much to do with PDP-11s (and the big -11s, aka VAXes) that 
> the small, word oriented nature of the -8 makes a change. I always wanted 
> to play with one, and now I can.
> 
> I wrote a lot of Macro-11 and Macro-32, not to mention compilers for 
> those machines. And I own four -11s and three VAXes.
> 
> I really liked the -10. Want more time to play on that.
> 

emulator available. Now there are so many emulators available it's hard to
pick. Last year I played with TSS/370, this year Multics.

-- 
Pete

On Thu, 25 Jan 2018 16:49:01 -0700, Peter Flass wrote:

> Bob Eager <news...@eager.cx> wrote:
>> On Thu, 25 Jan 2018 13:54:14 -0700, Peter Flass wrote:
>> 
>>> Gareth's Downstairs Computer
>>> <headstone255.but.n...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> On 24/01/2018 20:45, Bob Eager wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Although it doesn't hav ethat much practical use, this is my
>>>>> favourite,
>>>>> of the computers I own - probably because of the blinkenlights!
>>>>> 
>>>>> http://www.tavi.co.uk/sbc6120.jpg
>>>> 
>>>> I've yet to assemble it (Never put off till tomorrow what you can put
>>>> off till the day after) but bought one of these ...
>>>> 
>>>> http://obsolescence.wixsite.com/obsolescence/pidp-8
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> For some reason the -8 seems to be more of an object of nostalgia than
>>> the -11. I never warmed up to the -8, not so much because the
>>> instruction set was limited but because a lot of it seemed so random.
>> 
>> I like the minimal instruction set.
>> 
>> I've had so much to do with PDP-11s (and the big -11s, aka VAXes) that
>> the small, word oriented nature of the -8 makes a change. I always
>> wanted to play with one, and now I can.
>> 
>> I wrote a lot of Macro-11 and Macro-32, not to mention compilers for
>> those machines. And I own four -11s and three VAXes.
>> 
>> I really liked the -10. Want more time to play on that.
>> 
>> 
> emulator available. Now there are so many emulators available it's hard
> to pick. Last year I played with TSS/370, this year Multics.

Oh, I have the emulator. Just not the time. I had a year using a KA-10 
many years ago. Did quite a bit of Macro-10.



-- 
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

On Thu, 25 Jan 2018 16:49:01 -0700, Peter Flass wrote:

> Last year I played with TSS/370, this year Multics.

I have done assembly on a 370 (well, actually a 4381), and programmed 
part of an operating system for it. Managed to break the VM IPL emulator.

The system was a Multics 'descendant' with mapped files.

-- 
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

Bob Eager wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Jan 2018 16:49:01 -0700, Peter Flass wrote:
>
>> Bob Eager <news...@eager.cx> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 25 Jan 2018 13:54:14 -0700, Peter Flass wrote:
>>>
>>>> Gareth's Downstairs Computer
>>>> <headstone255.but.n...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 24/01/2018 20:45, Bob Eager wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Although it doesn't hav ethat much practical use, this is my
>>>>>> favourite,
>>>>>> of the computers I own - probably because of the blinkenlights!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.tavi.co.uk/sbc6120.jpg
>>>>>
>>>>> I've yet to assemble it (Never put off till tomorrow what you can put
>>>>> off till the day after) but bought one of these ...
>>>>>
>>>>> http://obsolescence.wixsite.com/obsolescence/pidp-8
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> For some reason the -8 seems to be more of an object of nostalgia than
>>>> the -11. I never warmed up to the -8, not so much because the
>>>> instruction set was limited but because a lot of it seemed so random.
>>>
>>> I like the minimal instruction set.
>>>
>>> I've had so much to do with PDP-11s (and the big -11s, aka VAXes) that
>>> the small, word oriented nature of the -8 makes a change. I always
>>> wanted to play with one, and now I can.
>>>
>>> I wrote a lot of Macro-11 and Macro-32, not to mention compilers for
>>> those machines. And I own four -11s and three VAXes.
>>>
>>> I really liked the -10. Want more time to play on that.
>>>
>>>
>> emulator available. Now there are so many emulators available it's hard
>> to pick. Last year I played with TSS/370, this year Multics.
>
> Oh, I have the emulator. Just not the time. I had a year using a KA-10
> many years ago. Did quite a bit of Macro-10.

Were you allowed to be in the machine room and play with the switches?
Working by the KA-10 was similar to playing a piano.

/BAH

On Fri, 26 Jan 2018 14:11:06 +0000, jmfbahciv wrote:

> Bob Eager wrote:
>> On Thu, 25 Jan 2018 16:49:01 -0700, Peter Flass wrote:
>>
>>> Bob Eager <news...@eager.cx> wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 25 Jan 2018 13:54:14 -0700, Peter Flass wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Gareth's Downstairs Computer
>>>>> <headstone255.but.n...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On 24/01/2018 20:45, Bob Eager wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Although it doesn't hav ethat much practical use, this is my
>>>>>>> favourite,
>>>>>>> of the computers I own - probably because of the blinkenlights!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.tavi.co.uk/sbc6120.jpg
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've yet to assemble it (Never put off till tomorrow what you can
>>>>>> put off till the day after) but bought one of these ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://obsolescence.wixsite.com/obsolescence/pidp-8
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> For some reason the -8 seems to be more of an object of nostalgia
>>>>> than the -11. I never warmed up to the -8, not so much because the
>>>>> instruction set was limited but because a lot of it seemed so
>>>>> random.
>>>>
>>>> I like the minimal instruction set.
>>>>
>>>> I've had so much to do with PDP-11s (and the big -11s, aka VAXes)
>>>> that the small, word oriented nature of the -8 makes a change. I
>>>> always wanted to play with one, and now I can.
>>>>
>>>> I wrote a lot of Macro-11 and Macro-32, not to mention compilers for
>>>> those machines. And I own four -11s and three VAXes.
>>>>
>>>> I really liked the -10. Want more time to play on that.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> emulator available. Now there are so many emulators available it's
>>> hard to pick. Last year I played with TSS/370, this year Multics.
>>
>> Oh, I have the emulator. Just not the time. I had a year using a KA-10
>> many years ago. Did quite a bit of Macro-10.
> 
> Were you allowed to be in the machine room and play with the switches?
> Working by the KA-10 was similar to playing a piano.

Unfortunately not. But I have seen a real KA-10 console; it's exhibited 
in the Science Museum in London (I was allowed hands-on access, for 
another project, to a DDP-516 console in the same cabinet).

-- 
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

On Wednesday, January 24, 2018 at 5:30:05 PM UTC-5, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:

> > The only computer
> > museum I know of is the one in California*,
> 
> 	There's one in Seattle.

Do they have a link?

On Thursday, January 25, 2018 at 3:54:15 PM UTC-5, Peter Flass wrote:

> > I've visited the IBM archives, and let's just say I never had a
> > problem finding a parking spot or had to wait in line.  (I don't
> > know about the Charles Babbage Institute).
> > 
> 
> Does the Archives have much besides ...archives? Some of the colleges have
> collections of stuff.

When I was there it was just archives.  It may no longer be open
to the public.  I think IBM got rid of the building it was at.
The old videos were neat, but a few are now on the IBM website.

On Thursday, January 25, 2018 at 3:54:16 PM UTC-5, Peter Flass wrote:

> For some reason the -8 seems to be more of an object of nostalgia than the
> -11. I never warmed up to the -8, not so much because the instruction set
> was limited but because a lot of it seemed so random.

Back in high school, a lot of the kids had affection for the PDP.

Why did Digital change the name from PDP to VAX?  It seemed PDP
had quite a following?  Was it a major architecture change, or
just marketing?

I must admit decades ago programmers were very conscious of the
make and model of their computer "I use a S/360-40.  Well, _I_
use a S/360-65!.  [whispered] I use a S/360-30."  We even knew
how much core memory we have.  But once programmers got beyond the 
S/390, few knew--or cared--what mainframe they had.  We've gone
through several Z units, and most of my colleagues know nothing
about it--except needing to come in on a Sunday to test applications
after the physical changeover.  I asked and was told what particular
sub-model we had and how much 'core' memory, but to be honest, I
don't remember.  It still blows my find that one box now does the
work of five IBM mainframes, and does it far faster and reliably.

Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> writes:
> 	There's one in Seattle.

Living Computers: Museum + Labs
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Living_Computers:_Museum_%2B_Labs

LCM+L (originally known as Living Computer Museum, and before that,
PDPplanet.com) was founded by Microsoft co-founder Paul Allen, on
January 9, 2006. Through PDPplanet users were able to telnet into
vintage devices and experience timesharing computing on equipment from
Digital Equipment Corporation (DEC) and XKL.[2]

Users around the world can now request a login through the LCM+L website
and telnet into systems from XKL, DEC, IBM, Xerox Sigma, AT&T, and
CDC.[3]

... snip ...

list of computers
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Living_Computers:_Museum_%2B_Labs#Computers

more:
http://www.livingcomputers.org/
visit
http://www.livingcomputers.org/Join/About.aspx

2245 First Ave S, Seattle WA 98134


-- 
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com writes:

> On Wednesday, January 24, 2018 at 5:30:05 PM UTC-5, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:

>>> The only computer museum I know of is the one in California*,

>> 	There's one in Seattle.

> Do they have a link?

http://www.livingcomputers.org/

Pretty good museum.  Knowledgable engineering staff as well as the usual museum
folks.  One guy started there in 2003, when it was just a private collection.

Hmm, let me think of his name...

-- 
Rich Alderson					  ne...@alderson.users.panix.com
      Audendum est, et veritas investiganda; quam etiamsi non assequamur,
	  omnino tamen proprius, quam nunc sumus, ad eam perveniemus.
									--Galen

On Fri, 26 Jan 2018 12:46:23 -0800, hancock4 wrote:

> Why did Digital change the name from PDP to VAX?  It seemed PDP had
> quite a following?  Was it a major architecture change, or just
> marketing?

The name PDP dated back to the early days - around 1958 (without looking 
it up). They wanted to put clear water between their product and 
'computers', so coined the Programmed Data Processor term.

It was getting a bit old over a decade later, and the VAX was a major 
change, yet with a familiar basic instruction architecture (albeit more 
registers, etc.) In particular it was 32 bits, and had 'proper' virtual 
memory (FSVO proper - I don't agree with some of the design). Hence 
Virtual Address eXtension, or VAX.

-- 
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com writes:

> On Thursday, January 25, 2018 at 3:54:16 PM UTC-5, Peter Flass wrote:

>> For some reason the -8 seems to be more of an object of nostalgia than the
>> -11. I never warmed up to the -8, not so much because the instruction set
>> was limited but because a lot of it seemed so random.

> Back in high school, a lot of the kids had affection for the PDP.

> Why did Digital change the name from PDP to VAX?  It seemed PDP
> had quite a following?  Was it a major architecture change, or
> just marketing?

Because there never was such a thing as "the PDP"?

DEC sold 7 different architectures under the name "PDP-n":

PDP-1	18 bits		6 bit opcode, 12 bit address
PDP-4	18 bits		5 bit opcode, 13 bit address
PDP-5	12 bits		3 bit opcode,  8 bit address (+ indirect; address is 7 bits either local or page 0)
PDP-6	36 bits		9 bit opcode, 18 bit address (4 bit AC, 4 bit index, indirect)
PDP-7	18 bits		5 bit opcode, 13 bit address (PDP-4 upwards compatible)
PDP-8	12 bits		3 bit opcode,  8 bit address (improved PDP-5)
PDP-9	18 bits		5 bit opcode, 13 bit address (PDP-7 upwards compatible)
PDP-10	36 bits		PDP-6 upwards compatible
PDP-11	16 bits		complex byte-oriented opcode, 16 bit address
PDP-12	12 bits		PDP-8 + LINC
PDP-14	 1 bit		register transfer machine
PDP-15	18 bits		5 bit opcode, 13 bit address, index registers (PDP-9 upwards compatible)
PDP-16	i forget	different register transfer machine

In 1971, they called the next generation PDP-10 a DECsystem-10.

Why shouldn't they call a different system by a different name?

-- 
Rich Alderson					  ne...@alderson.users.panix.com
      Audendum est, et veritas investiganda; quam etiamsi non assequamur,
	  omnino tamen proprius, quam nunc sumus, ad eam perveniemus.
									--Galen

Anne & Lynn Wheeler <ly...@garlic.com> writes:

> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> writes:
> > 	There's one in Seattle.

> Living Computers: Museum + Labs
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Living_Computers:_Museum_%2B_Labs

[snip]

> visit
> http://www.livingcomputers.org/Join/About.aspx
> 
> 2245 First Ave S, Seattle WA 98134

Thanks, Lynn!  When are you coming to visit?

-- 
Rich Alderson					  ne...@alderson.users.panix.com
      Audendum est, et veritas investiganda; quam etiamsi non assequamur,
	  omnino tamen proprius, quam nunc sumus, ad eam perveniemus.
									--Galen

In article <10019e38-01f7-496b...@googlegroups.com>,
 <hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>On Wednesday, January 24, 2018 at 9:22:47 AM UTC-5, Peter Flass wrote:
>The only computer museum I know of is the one in California*,

The National Museum of American History in DC, part of the
Smithsonian, has a large computer collection, better in some ways than
the computer museum.

There's also plenty of smaller museums.  One I've been to is the
InfoAge museum in Wall NJ, which has a small but interesting
collection.  They're in the process of restoring the PDP-8 we used in
the RESISTORS.

http://vcfed.org/wp/

Regional science museums like the one in Boston usually have computer
exhibits.  The Boston one is interesting since it has stuff from the
route 128 companies.

In the UK, there's the wonderful National Museum of Computing at
Bletchley Park, adjacent to but separate from the WW II crypto museum.

In Germany, the Deutsches Technikmuseum Berlin (the one with a C-47 on
the roof) has an unusual computer collection including an
electromechanical Zuse Z-1.

It's been a long time since I've been to the Deutsches Museum in 
Munich, but their computer collection is interesting too:

http://www.deutsches-museum.de/en/exhibitions/communication/computers/

R's,
John
-- 
Regards,
John Levine, jo...@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

Rich Alderson <ne...@alderson.users.panix.com> wrote:
> hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
> 
>> On Wednesday, January 24, 2018 at 5:30:05 PM UTC-5, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> 
>>>> The only computer museum I know of is the one in California*,
> 
>>> There's one in Seattle.
> 
>> Do they have a link?
> 
> http://www.livingcomputers.org/
> 
> Pretty good museum.  Knowledgable engineering staff as well as the usual museum
> folks.  One guy started there in 2003, when it was just a private collection.
> 
> Hmm, let me think of his name...
> 

I think somebody "here" works there.

-- 
Pete

John Levine <jo...@taugh.com> wrote:
> In article <10019e38-01f7-496b...@googlegroups.com>,
>  <hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>> On Wednesday, January 24, 2018 at 9:22:47 AM UTC-5, Peter Flass wrote:
>> The only computer museum I know of is the one in California*,
> 
> The National Museum of American History in DC, part of the
> Smithsonian, has a large computer collection, better in some ways than
> the computer museum.
> 
> There's also plenty of smaller museums.  One I've been to is the
> InfoAge museum in Wall NJ, which has a small but interesting
> collection.  They're in the process of restoring the PDP-8 we used in
> the RESISTORS.
> 
> http://vcfed.org/wp/
> 
> Regional science museums like the one in Boston usually have computer
> exhibits.  The Boston one is interesting since it has stuff from the
> route 128 companies.
> 
> In the UK, there's the wonderful National Museum of Computing at
> Bletchley Park, adjacent to but separate from the WW II crypto museum.
> 
> In Germany, the Deutsches Technikmuseum Berlin (the one with a C-47 on
> the roof) has an unusual computer collection including an
> electromechanical Zuse Z-1.
> 
> It's been a long time since I've been to the Deutsches Museum in 
> Munich, but their computer collection is interesting too:
> 
> http://www.deutsches-museum.de/en/exhibitions/communication/computers/
> 
> R's,
> John

IBM used to have a museum in Böblingen, but it may not be there any more.

-- 
Pete

In article <p4gdso$2o91$1...@gal.iecc.com>, John Levine  <jo...@taugh.com> wrote:
>In article <10019e38-01f7-496b...@googlegroups.com>,
> <hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>>On Wednesday, January 24, 2018 at 9:22:47 AM UTC-5, Peter Flass wrote:
>>The only computer museum I know of is the one in California*,
>
>The National Museum of American History in DC, part of the
>Smithsonian, has a large computer collection, better in some ways than
>the computer museum.

Yeah,  but the blinking light pattern on the 11/40 (or was it a '45)
at the Smithsonian is completely wrong.  There's obviously just some light
sequencer and a microprocessor feeding the display (supposedly a NASA
box monitoring flight data -- IIRC).  At least that was what I thought
back in the 90's when I was there.

It had a light pattern that didn't match any of the DEC OS's and didn't look
like any of the 11's in operation.

>
>There's also plenty of smaller museums.  One I've been to is the
>InfoAge museum in Wall NJ, which has a small but interesting
>collection.  They're in the process of restoring the PDP-8 we used in
>the RESISTORS.
>
>http://vcfed.org/wp/
>

The Wall, NJ site is also known as the Evans area on some old signs.
This was a part of Fort Monmouth.... and my old DEC stomping
grounds as a Field Engineer.  

All gone now.  Closed as part of BRAC base closing process.
Evans was a site with some serious environmental problems.  Took a while
to clean it up...   site began as a very early transatlantic radio
site for Marconi Wireless...  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_Evans_Historic_District

Interesting to see how much of this area was used for early radio, radar,
satelite tracking.  Twin Lights, Deal Test Site (now a park), Evans Area.
The Nike sites along the coast... Fort Hancock...

I screwed up a customers RT11 sysgen at the Evans area back around 1985-6.
Never, never try to gen in multiterminal support and and the LS serial printer
interface at the same address/vector.  Duh.  Nice crashes.

I did the sysgen as a favor (on my PDT 11/150 at home or on the later 11/23)
and brought the software in to the customer.  Bad move... kernel crashed on 
terminal powerup on the 2nd port.  DEC might've canned my butt if they 
knew I did that for the customer... Officially, hardware guys shouldn't 
do sysgens 8-) but it seemed like fun at the time.

One Email -- problem fixed. 8-)  No Remedy tickets.  No having to go through
outsourced level x support with no idea what you're working on.

Those were the days when you could buy a beer for a support person and they'd
do you a favor and give you a hand.

I bought plenty of drinks and breakfast for those long overnight work nights.

Fixed it in a day or so thanks to Megan Gentry back then.

It was good to meet folks in Ma. while up at DEC Training on Crosby Drive.
I got connected while picking up surplus PDP11 stuff as an employee at
Maynard when in training.  Bought a bunch of Qbus memory some of which  
went in an 11/23 I bought from a customer who replaced it after a building 
fire. 

>R's,
>John
>-- 
>Regards,
>John Levine, jo...@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
>Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

Sounds like you're not too far from the area.


Bill

William Pechter wrote:
> In article <p4gdso$2o91$1...@gal.iecc.com>, John Levine  <jo...@taugh.com>
wrote:
>>In article <10019e38-01f7-496b...@googlegroups.com>,
>> <hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>>>On Wednesday, January 24, 2018 at 9:22:47 AM UTC-5, Peter Flass wrote:
>>>The only computer museum I know of is the one in California*,
>>
>>The National Museum of American History in DC, part of the
>>Smithsonian, has a large computer collection, better in some ways than
>>the computer museum.
>
> Yeah,  but the blinking light pattern on the 11/40 (or was it a '45)
> at the Smithsonian is completely wrong.  There's obviously just some light
> sequencer and a microprocessor feeding the display (supposedly a NASA
> box monitoring flight data -- IIRC).  At least that was what I thought
> back in the 90's when I was there.
>
> It had a light pattern that didn't match any of the DEC OS's and didn't look
> like any of the 11's in operation.

That would have made my fingers want to investigate the bug.  :-)


>
>>
>>There's also plenty of smaller museums.  One I've been to is the
>>InfoAge museum in Wall NJ, which has a small but interesting
>>collection.  They're in the process of restoring the PDP-8 we used in
>>the RESISTORS.
>>
>>http://vcfed.org/wp/
>>
>
> The Wall, NJ site is also known as the Evans area on some old signs.
> This was a part of Fort Monmouth.... and my old DEC stomping
> grounds as a Field Engineer.
>
> All gone now.  Closed as part of BRAC base closing process.
> Evans was a site with some serious environmental problems.  Took a while
> to clean it up...   site began as a very early transatlantic radio
> site for Marconi Wireless...
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_Evans_Historic_District
>
> Interesting to see how much of this area was used for early radio, radar,
> satelite tracking.  Twin Lights, Deal Test Site (now a park), Evans Area.
> The Nike sites along the coast... Fort Hancock...
>
> I screwed up a customers RT11 sysgen at the Evans area back around 1985-6.
> Never, never try to gen in multiterminal support and and the LS serial
printer
> interface at the same address/vector.  Duh.  Nice crashes.
>
> I did the sysgen as a favor (on my PDT 11/150 at home or on the later 11/23)
> and brought the software in to the customer.  Bad move... kernel crashed on
> terminal powerup on the 2nd port.  DEC might've canned my butt if they
> knew I did that for the customer... Officially, hardware guys shouldn't
> do sysgens 8-) but it seemed like fun at the time.

Getting canned for that seems very strange to me.  The -10 side wouldn't
have cared.

>
> One Email -- problem fixed. 8-)  No Remedy tickets.  No having to go through
> outsourced level x support with no idea what you're working on.

Now that would have upset the bean counters :-)

<snip>

/BAH

The IBM 704 had "Electronic Data Processing Machine" on a strip along 
the top to the left of its number.

So the Honeywell 516 was the DDP-516, or Digital Data Processor-516... and 
PDP stood for "Programmed Data Processor".

That's even why the old computers tended to have assembler mnemonics 
that were all three letters long.

Hey, if you want to sell a computer, it has to look like a real computer, 
and that means an IBM.

On the other hand, VAX stood for "Virtual Address eXtension".

So it was descriptive of one of the purposes behind the new architecture; 
being able to handle bigger programs with more memory.

On Monday, January 29, 2018 at 5:22:55 AM UTC-5, Quadibloc wrote:
> The IBM 704 had "Electronic Data Processing Machine" on a strip along 
> the top to the left of its number.

Although the term "computer" was used for hardware* in the 1940s,
it was also used for human clerks who did math work.  Watson Sr,
president of IBM, didn't want to suggest his machines were causing
humans to lose their jobs (although that was indeed their intent),
so he insisted all his computers be called "data processing machines".
I think they continued that as late as 1959 with the 1401 and 7090.



*two references to "computer" as hardware in WW II.

https://books.google.com/books?id=fU8EAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA23&dq=life%20computer%20war&pg=PA23#v=onepage&q&f=false

https://books.google.com/books?id=bk8EAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA117&dq=life%20computer%20war&pg=PA117#v=onepage&q&f=false

On 28 Jan 2018 16:22:29 GMT, jmfbahciv <See....@aol.com> wrote:
>William Pechter wrote:
>> I screwed up a customers RT11 sysgen at the Evans area back around 1985-6.
>> Never, never try to gen in multiterminal support and and the LS serial printer
>> interface at the same address/vector.  Duh.  Nice crashes.
>>
>> I did the sysgen as a favor (on my PDT 11/150 at home or on the later 11/23)
>> and brought the software in to the customer.  Bad move... kernel crashed on
>> terminal powerup on the 2nd port.  DEC might've canned my butt if they
>> knew I did that for the customer... Officially, hardware guys shouldn't
>> do sysgens 8-) but it seemed like fun at the time.
>
>Getting canned for that seems very strange to me.  The -10 side wouldn't
>have cared.

They certainly would have.  I can't imagine any of the Field Service personnel
I've known who would have done an unauthorized MONGEN for a PDP-10 customer.

Either the customer has a software support contract, in which case that was the
responsibility of the software specialist and he was stepping on their toes, or
the customer didn't have a contract, in which case he was performing a service
they were not entitled to.  In either event, he was neither authorized, nor
apparently properly trained, to perform the task.  Imagine if something had gone
terribly wrong and screwed up the customer's system with lost data and/or
significant downtime.  It would have been a big liability for DEC.

In article <5a70a45d...@news.dslextreme.com>,
Questor <usenet@only.tnx> wrote:
>On 28 Jan 2018 16:22:29 GMT, jmfbahciv <See....@aol.com> wrote:
>>William Pechter wrote:
>>> I screwed up a customers RT11 sysgen at the Evans area back around 1985-6.
>>> Never, never try to gen in multiterminal support and and the LS
>serial printer
>>> interface at the same address/vector.  Duh.  Nice crashes.
>>>
>>> I did the sysgen as a favor (on my PDT 11/150 at home or on the 
>>> later 11/23)
>>> and brought the software in to the customer.  Bad move... kernel crashed on
>>> terminal powerup on the 2nd port.  DEC might've canned my butt if they
>>> knew I did that for the customer... Officially, hardware guys shouldn't
>>> do sysgens 8-) but it seemed like fun at the time.
>>
>>Getting canned for that seems very strange to me.  The -10 side wouldn't
>>have cared.
>
>They certainly would have.  I can't imagine any of the Field Service personnel
>I've known who would have done an unauthorized MONGEN for a PDP-10 customer.

Not officially... if they wanted to keep their job.
This was an 11/34 with one user running RT11 and a VT11...

The customer was an engineer and I was pretty friendly with him.
It was, in 1985, a big personal computer doing some number crunching.
I could gen it and bring it in on a floppy from home.

Copying his original system back over to the system disk was pretty
easy -- so as far as he was concerned, I think, it was no harm no foul.

I'd done a ton of VAX/VMS installs and was playing around with RT11 at home.
I'd seen software wipe my VMS installs to reinstall (in exactly the same
way) over my installs as part of the software setup contract.

Interesting, since the VMS OS install and sysgen was easier than about any
other install I've done since.  The real skill was in the tuning and adapting
the sysgen parameters beyond Autogen.  RT11 had a ton of options.  Never
tried RSX, but I'm looking to do it.  I bought a set of manuals and they're 
in the basement.

>
>Either the customer has a software support contract, in which case that was 
>the responsibility of the software specialist and he was stepping on their
> toes, or
>the customer didn't have a contract, in which case he was performing a service
>they were not entitled to.  In either event, he was neither authorized, nor
>apparently properly trained, to perform the task.  Imagine if something 
> had gone terribly wrong and screwed up the customer's system with 
>lost data and/or significant downtime.  It would have been a big 
> liability for DEC.

Two floppies and a pair of RL02's weren't a big deal and I fixed my mess.
I know how far I was out on the limb before I went and sawed it off
halfway out from the tree trunk.

That's the stuff I learned in real life that I tried to teach when I was
doing sysadmin training for a living.

If you never try... you'll never make mistakes and learn from them.

DEC was not too stocked with RT11 guys in the NJ office.  I don't think
I new software specialists with backgrounds beyond RSTS, RSX and VAX/VMS 
in the area.


Bill

William Pechter wrote:
> In article <5a70a45d...@news.dslextreme.com>,
> Questor <usenet@only.tnx> wrote:
>>On 28 Jan 2018 16:22:29 GMT, jmfbahciv <See....@aol.com> wrote:
>>>William Pechter wrote:
>>>> I screwed up a customers RT11 sysgen at the Evans area back around
1985-6.
>>>> Never, never try to gen in multiterminal support and and the LS
>>serial printer
>>>> interface at the same address/vector.  Duh.  Nice crashes.
>>>>
>>>> I did the sysgen as a favor (on my PDT 11/150 at home or on the
>>>> later 11/23)
>>>> and brought the software in to the customer.  Bad move... kernel crashed
on
>>>> terminal powerup on the 2nd port.  DEC might've canned my butt if they
>>>> knew I did that for the customer... Officially, hardware guys shouldn't
>>>> do sysgens 8-) but it seemed like fun at the time.
>>>
>>>Getting canned for that seems very strange to me.  The -10 side wouldn't
>>>have cared.
>>
>>They certainly would have.  I can't imagine any of the Field Service
personnel
>>I've known who would have done an unauthorized MONGEN for a PDP-10 customer.
>
> Not officially... if they wanted to keep their job.
> This was an 11/34 with one user running RT11 and a VT11...

<snip>

Until the customer knew the configuration of his system, he could not
do a MONGEN.  A field service rep would have helped him out.  A KLAD
pack's monitor was not built well (until I fixed that problem).
The monitor supplied on a new system (manufacturing was supposed to
build a system pack for each customer but that process detriorated)
would work until the customer needed expansion, new hardware or
wanted to install the latest distribution.

/BAH

On 31 Jan 2018 13:30:57 GMT, jmfbahciv <See....@aol.com> wrote:
>William Pechter wrote:
>> In article <5a70a45d...@news.dslextreme.com>,
>> Questor <usenet@only.tnx> wrote:
>>>On 28 Jan 2018 16:22:29 GMT, jmfbahciv <See....@aol.com> wrote:
>>>>William Pechter wrote:
>>>>> I screwed up a customers RT11 sysgen at the Evans area back around 1985-6.
>>>>> Never, never try to gen in multiterminal support and and the LS
>>>serial printer
>>>>> interface at the same address/vector.  Duh.  Nice crashes.
>>>>>
>>>>> I did the sysgen as a favor (on my PDT 11/150 at home or on the
>>>>> later 11/23)
>>>>> and brought the software in to the customer.  Bad move... kernel crashed on
>>>>> terminal powerup on the 2nd port.  DEC might've canned my butt if they
>>>>> knew I did that for the customer... Officially, hardware guys shouldn't
>>>>> do sysgens 8-) but it seemed like fun at the time.
>>>>
>>>>Getting canned for that seems very strange to me.  The -10 side wouldn't
>>>>have cared.
>>>
>>>They certainly would have.  I can't imagine any of the Field Service personnel
>>>I've known who would have done an unauthorized MONGEN for a PDP-10 customer.
>>
>> Not officially... if they wanted to keep their job.
>> This was an 11/34 with one user running RT11 and a VT11...
>
><snip>
>
>Until the customer knew the configuration of his system, he could not
>do a MONGEN.  A field service rep would have helped him out.

You have it backwards.

A PDP-10 customer doesn't need Field Service to tell them what the configuration
is.  The PDP-10 customer tells Field Service what the configuration will be.

Questor wrote:
> On 31 Jan 2018 13:30:57 GMT, jmfbahciv <See....@aol.com> wrote:
>>William Pechter wrote:
>>> In article <5a70a45d...@news.dslextreme.com>,
>>> Questor <usenet@only.tnx> wrote:
>>>>On 28 Jan 2018 16:22:29 GMT, jmfbahciv <See....@aol.com> wrote:
>>>>>William Pechter wrote:
>>>>>> I screwed up a customers RT11 sysgen at the Evans area back around
1985-6.
>>>>>> Never, never try to gen in multiterminal support and and the LS
>>>>serial printer
>>>>>> interface at the same address/vector.  Duh.  Nice crashes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I did the sysgen as a favor (on my PDT 11/150 at home or on the
>>>>>> later 11/23)
>>>>>> and brought the software in to the customer.  Bad move... kernel
crashed on
>>>>>> terminal powerup on the 2nd port.  DEC might've canned my butt if they
>>>>>> knew I did that for the customer... Officially, hardware guys shouldn't
>>>>>> do sysgens 8-) but it seemed like fun at the time.
>>>>>
>>>>>Getting canned for that seems very strange to me.  The -10 side wouldn't
>>>>>have cared.
>>>>
>>>>They certainly would have.  I can't imagine any of the Field Service
personnel
>>>>I've known who would have done an unauthorized MONGEN for a PDP-10
customer.
>>>
>>> Not officially... if they wanted to keep their job.
>>> This was an 11/34 with one user running RT11 and a VT11...
>>
>><snip>
>>
>>Until the customer knew the configuration of his system, he could not
>>do a MONGEN.  A field service rep would have helped him out.
>
> You have it backwards.
>
> A PDP-10 customer doesn't need Field Service to tell them what the
configuration
> is.  The PDP-10 customer tells Field Service what the configuration will be.
>

Another datum showing how you don't know how the PDP-10 product line worked.

/BAH

On 5 Feb 2018 15:01:16 GMT, jmfbahciv <See....@aol.com> wrote:
>Questor wrote:
>> On 31 Jan 2018 13:30:57 GMT, jmfbahciv <See....@aol.com> wrote:
>>>William Pechter wrote:
>>>> In article <5a70a45d...@news.dslextreme.com>,
>>>> Questor <usenet@only.tnx> wrote:
>>>>>On 28 Jan 2018 16:22:29 GMT, jmfbahciv <See....@aol.com> wrote:
>>>>>>William Pechter wrote:
>>>>>>> I screwed up a customers RT11 sysgen at the Evans area back around
>1985-6.
>>>>>>> Never, never try to gen in multiterminal support and and the LS
>>>>>serial printer
>>>>>>> interface at the same address/vector.  Duh.  Nice crashes.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I did the sysgen as a favor (on my PDT 11/150 at home or on the
>>>>>>> later 11/23)
>>>>>>> and brought the software in to the customer.  Bad move... kernel
>crashed on
>>>>>>> terminal powerup on the 2nd port.  DEC might've canned my butt if they
>>>>>>> knew I did that for the customer... Officially, hardware guys shouldn't
>>>>>>> do sysgens 8-) but it seemed like fun at the time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Getting canned for that seems very strange to me.  The -10 side wouldn't
>>>>>>have cared.
>>>>>
>>>>>They certainly would have.  I can't imagine any of the Field Service
>personnel
>>>>>I've known who would have done an unauthorized MONGEN for a PDP-10
>customer.
>>>>
>>>> Not officially... if they wanted to keep their job.
>>>> This was an 11/34 with one user running RT11 and a VT11...
>>>
>>><snip>
>>>
>>>Until the customer knew the configuration of his system, he could not
>>>do a MONGEN.  A field service rep would have helped him out.
>>
>> You have it backwards.
>>
>> A PDP-10 customer doesn't need Field Service to tell them what the
>configuration
>> is.  The PDP-10 customer tells Field Service what the configuration will be.
>>
>
>Another datum showing how you don't know how the PDP-10 product line worked.

As always, your standard response when you're wrong and don't want to admit it.

Since you've only worked in the development bubble, you clearly have no clue how
commercial PDP-10 shops worked.  Your statements about Field Service are
nonsense.

Field Service works at the direction of the customer.  Field Service does not
direct the customer.

Were the prices to be viewed in today's dollars, purchasing and operating a
PDP-10 would still involve serious coin, and even more so forty years ago.  With
such an expensive asset, PDP-10 owners certainly knew the configuration of their
machines down to the DECtape.  (At least the ones that were checked into the
tape library.)

Even the owners of multiple PDP-10s didn't regularly swap hardware around
between machines.  Doing so was expensive and served no purpose.  In order to
maximize return on those systems, the watchwords were reliability and stability.

When infrequent configuration changes were made, *everyone* involved was
informed:   the operations staff, the software support people, and the Field
Service representative.  Everyone knew in advance what was to be done, when it
was to be done, what to do after it was done, and what to do if it failed to get
done.  Users were notified about scheduled downtime and any changes they might
expect to see.  Of course, if a new monitor was required to accommodate the
changes, it was generated in advance.

BTW, one of TOPS-10's many flaws that TOPS-20 (yay!) eliminated was the need for
routine customer MONGENs, because it auto-configured most peripherals like
Massbus devices (tapes and disks).