🚀 go-pugleaf

durga...@gmail.com writes:
>On Wednesday, December 3, 1997 at 2:00:00 AM UTC-6, The Bakers wrote:
>> This has been a great discussion so far!  Brings back lots of memories [n=
>o pun
>> intended :]
>>=20
>> Dan Yertzell wrote:
>>=20
>> > The first line of the COBOL printouts
>> > is:
>> >
>> > START OF CHECKOUT USING ABAVPA ON 74128 AT 0800 HOURS
>>=20
>> Here the next question:
>>=20
>> Did the H-200 have a built-in clock/calendar hardware (I don't *think* it=
> did, at
>> least the one I used) ?  Then where did the date & time come from on the =
>header
>> shown above from the COBOL compile ?
>>=20
>> Did you have to input the current date and time somehow, perhaps on the c=
>onsole
>> call card ?
>>=20
>> Inquiring minds want to know.....
>> M. Baker
>
>Hi all,
>
>Not sure if I believe the posting dates I'm seeing... did Google Groups exi=
>st in 1997?

This isn't Google Groups.   It is USENET, which dates from the late
70's.

Google Groups is just a pathetically horrible interface to USENET.

>
>>From what I've been reading on the H200/2000 series, there was a "Time of D=
>ay" clock (peripheral model 213-4) that would supply the time. Not sure how=
> date was supplied - perhaps it was part of the Operator's procedure to ent=
>er it each day. I seem to recall something like that being done by the Oper=
>ator of the H2040 I had access to. I did not see any reference to an overfl=
>ow interrupt/indicator for the time-of-day clock.

It was typical of mainframes in that era to request the current date/time
when the system is booted (halt/loaded) from the operator.

On Wednesday, July 20, 2016 at 3:41:49 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:

> It was typical of mainframes in that era to request the current date/time
> when the system is booted (halt/loaded) from the operator.

It didn't seem that long ago that our mainframe began to get its
time automatically from a consistent source, as opposed to the
console operator's wristwatch.  Being even just a few minutes off
could make a difference in reconciling reports.

In my COBOL programs, I made it a point to display both the 
compilation time (WHEN-COMPILED) and the execution date/time
in the I/O log.  It did come in handy in debugging, like making
it easy to quickly to see what program version was being used,
and also the particular test.  In addition, on reports, I included
the run time (HH:MM) after the date, knowing that some reports could
be run several times on the same day; this would identify such 
multiple runs.  Again, that came in handy when questions came up.


In FORTRAN, was there a way for a program to obtain the time
and date?  I don't recall it in Fortran IV, but it was added
later or I just don't remember.

On the Honeywell, the time-of-day device was an "ordinary" peripheral and so it's possible you could find the right READ() syntax to retrieve the time (but not date). I'm pretty sure FORTRAN IV could have vendor-specific built-in functions/subroutines added, but I don't recall finding documentation about that for the H2040 or OS/2000. But, I probably didn't look for it either.

durga...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 3, 1997 at 2:00:00 AM UTC-6, The Bakers wrote:
> > 
> > Did you have to input the current date and time somehow, perhaps on the console
> > call card ?
> > 
> > Inquiring minds want to know.....
> > M. Baker

> From what I've been reading on the H200/2000 series, there was a "Time of Day" clock (peripheral model 213-4) that would supply the time. Not sure how date was supplied - perhaps it was part of the Operator's procedure to enter it each day. I seem to recall something like that being done by the Operator of the H2040 I had access to. I did not see any reference to an overflow interrupt/indicator for the time-of-day clock.

In a batch processing environment, 'Today's Date' is simply one input
parameter. A large billing operation there have a sign on the wall
saying: Now processing <a date from a couple of days ago>.

The operators needed to know what date to key in for their
desparate attempt to rerun a failed batch job that blocked
the flow of production. Then there was overtime to work
through the backlog.

> Thanks,
> Doug

-- 
Postfix...a computer term meaning "sendmail is too hard for me"

durga...@gmail.com writes:
>On the Honeywell, the time-of-day device was an "ordinary" peripheral and s=
>o it's possible you could find the right READ() syntax to retrieve the time=
> (but not date). I'm pretty sure FORTRAN IV could have vendor-specific buil=
>t-in functions/subroutines added, but I don't recall finding documentation =
>about that for the H2040 or OS/2000. But, I probably didn't look for it eit=
>her.

Burroughs had extensions in all the supported languages to obtain
the current time/date in various formats (e.g. julian).  They generated a
Branch Communicate (BCT) instruction (system call to the MCP).

On Thu, 21 Jul 2016 14:12:01 +0100, Bud Frede <fr...@mouse-potato.com>  
wrote:

> "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> writes:
>
>> "Morten Reistad" <first@last.name.invalid> wrote in message
>> news:p1356d-ila.ln1@sambook.reistad.name...
>>> In article <ef911acc-f78e-4722...@googlegroups.com>,
>>> Quadibloc  <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, July 20, 2016 at 1:18:31 PM UTC-6, durg...@gmail.com  
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Not sure if I believe the posting dates I'm seeing... did Google  
>>>>> Groups
>>>>> exist in 1997?
>>>>
>>>> USENET existed in 1997. And, in fact, so did Deja News, which was what
>>>> Google
>>>> bought and made Google Groups from.
>>>
>>>
>>> 1997 had a mature usenet. 1977 is more doubtful.
>>
>> Yes. I started in 1994.
>
> You started abusing Usenet in 1994? I can believe that.
>
>
>
> http://www.laughingpoliceman.com/court_amateurs.htm
>
[]
take it to the funfair that is ukra

-- 
Bah, and indeed, Humbug

On 2016-07-20, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:

> It was typical of mainframes in that era to request the current date/time
> when the system is booted (halt/loaded) from the operator.

Which led to a rec.humor.funny posting from someone who saw an article
about the rapid miniaturization of computers, suggesting that one day
we might have a 3090 in a wristwatch.

"Great," he quipped, "you'll be able to boot MVS on your watch
and the first thing it'll do is ask you the time."

-- 
/~\  cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ /  I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
 X   Top-posted messages will probably be ignored.  See RFC1855.
/ \  HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored.  Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!

On 21 Jul 2016 16:51:11 GMT
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:

> On 2016-07-20, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
> 
> > It was typical of mainframes in that era to request the current
> > date/time when the system is booted (halt/loaded) from the operator.
> 
> Which led to a rec.humor.funny posting from someone who saw an article
> about the rapid miniaturization of computers, suggesting that one day
> we might have a 3090 in a wristwatch.
> 
> "Great," he quipped, "you'll be able to boot MVS on your watch
> and the first thing it'll do is ask you the time."

	It shouldn't be hard to run Hercules on an Android smart watch and
do just that.

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:>WIN                                      | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

On Thu, 21 Jul 2016 15:06:14 +0100, Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

> On Thursday, July 21, 2016 at 6:02:07 AM UTC-6, Peter Flass wrote:
>
>> I don't even remember now, but  I do recall chipping messages  into a  
>> stone
>> tablet and sending them by camel caravan.
>
> Have you visited Mars - after an encounter with hostile Apache Indians -  
> by any
> chance?
>
There's a sequel out there; "Get Carter", I think it's called.

-- 
Bah, and indeed, Humbug

>> M. Baker
>
> Hi all,
>
> Not sure if I believe the posting dates I'm seeing... did Google Groups exist in 1997?
>
> From what I've been reading on the H200/2000 series, there was a "Time of Day" clock (peripheral model 213-4) that would supply the time. Not sure how date was supplied - perhaps it was part of the Operator's procedure to enter it each day. I seem to recall something like that being done by the Operator of the H2040 I had access to. I did not see any reference to an overflow interrupt/indicator for the time-of-day clock.
>


 From what I remember it was a "normal" clock that was synced to the 
mains frequency. I remember the engineer showing it to me one day..

> I've been working on a virtual H2000-series machine (http://honeywell2000.durgadas.com/) and am trying to get more information about peripherals - and also any software that might be out there. Even information about how software was operated could be useful.
>
> Is anyone out there?
>
> Thanks,
> Doug
>

Dave
G4UGM

"Kerr Mudd-John" <ad...@127.0.0.1> wrote in message 
news:op.ykysskf2msr2db@dell3100.workgroup...
> On Thu, 21 Jul 2016 15:06:14 +0100, Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
>> On Thursday, July 21, 2016 at 6:02:07 AM UTC-6, Peter Flass wrote:
>>
>>> I don't even remember now, but  I do recall chipping messages  into a 
>>> stone
>>> tablet and sending them by camel caravan.
>>
>> Have you visited Mars - after an encounter with hostile Apache Indians - 
>> by any
>> chance?
>>
> There's a sequel out there; "Get Carter", I think it's called.
>

So here is a LISP program on a stone tablet:

http://www.aquaporin4.com/lispstone/

-- 

numerist at aquaporin4 dot com

"David Wade" <dave....@gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:nmri9u$54r$1@news.albasani.net...
>
>>> M. Baker
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Not sure if I believe the posting dates I'm seeing... did Google Groups 
>> exist in 1997?
>>
>> From what I've been reading on the H200/2000 series, there was a "Time of 
>> Day" clock (peripheral model 213-4) that would supply the time. Not sure 
>> how date was supplied - perhaps it was part of the Operator's procedure 
>> to enter it each day. I seem to recall something like that being done by 
>> the Operator of the H2040 I had access to. I did not see any reference to 
>> an overflow interrupt/indicator for the time-of-day clock.
>>
>
>
> From what I remember it was a "normal" clock that was synced to the mains 
> frequency. I remember the engineer showing it to me one day..
>

The "mains" frequency can drift quite a bit.  A clock based on that fequency 
will *not* be all that accurate...

-- 

numerist at aquaporin4 dot com

"Charles Richmond" <nume...@aquaporin4.com> writes:
> The "mains" frequency can drift quite a bit.  A clock based on that
> fequency will *not* be all that accurate...

That's not nearly true, unless you are generating your own power.

For the last decade, there are 5.184 million +/- 4 cycles of 60 Hz per
day.  (with an extra sixty for those days when we have leap seconds
... saw the report recently that we're due for another).

The maximum error can be 60 cycles (leading or lagging) before
correction must be applied to bring the total for the day back into line.

So -- a mechanically accurate synchronous clock will be off by no more
than one second over the course of a day, and no more than two seconds
per month in the long term.

In article <871t2mv...@senguio.mx>,
Lawrence Statton NK1G  <lawr...@senguio.mx> wrote:
>"Charles Richmond" <nume...@aquaporin4.com> writes:
>> The "mains" frequency can drift quite a bit.  A clock based on that
>> fequency will *not* be all that accurate...
>
>That's not nearly true, unless you are generating your own power.
>
>For the last decade, there are 5.184 million +/- 4 cycles of 60 Hz per
>day.  (with an extra sixty for those days when we have leap seconds
>... saw the report recently that we're due for another).
>
>The maximum error can be 60 cycles (leading or lagging) before
>correction must be applied to bring the total for the day back into line.
>
>So -- a mechanically accurate synchronous clock will be off by no more
>than one second over the course of a day, and no more than two seconds
>per month in the long term.

This applies for the three most important sub-grids in the US+CA,
for the UK and Nordpool (Scandinavia ++) grids in Europe. But if
you go to China, India, Africa this is not even close to true anymore.

Grid-synced clocks may drift several minutes per day.

-- mrr

On Fri, 22 Jul 2016 02:19:08 +0100, Charles Richmond  
<nume...@aquaporin4.com> wrote:

> "Kerr Mudd-John" <ad...@127.0.0.1> wrote in message  
> news:op.ykysskf2msr2db@dell3100.workgroup...
>> On Thu, 21 Jul 2016 15:06:14 +0100, Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thursday, July 21, 2016 at 6:02:07 AM UTC-6, Peter Flass wrote:
>>>
>>>> I don't even remember now, but  I do recall chipping messages  into a  
>>>> stone
>>>> tablet and sending them by camel caravan.
>>>
>>> Have you visited Mars - after an encounter with hostile Apache Indians  
>>> - by any
>>> chance?
>>>
>> There's a sequel out there; "Get Carter", I think it's called.
>>
>
> So here is a LISP program on a stone tablet:
>
> http://www.aquaporin4.com/lispstone/
>

Oook!

-- 
Bah, and indeed, Humbug

In article <nmq2sn$nds$1...@dont-email.me>,
gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339 <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> wrote:
>"Morten Reistad" <first@last.name.invalid> wrote in message 
>news:p1356d-ila.ln1@sambook.reistad.name...
>> In article <ef911acc-f78e-4722...@googlegroups.com>,
>> Quadibloc  <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>>On Wednesday, July 20, 2016 at 1:18:31 PM UTC-6,
>durg...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> Not sure if I believe the posting dates I'm seeing... did
>Google Groups 
>>>> exist in 1997?
>>>
>>>USENET existed in 1997. And, in fact, so did Deja News, which was what 
>>>Google
>>>bought and made Google Groups from.
>>
>>
>> 1997 had a mature usenet. 1977 is more doubtful.
>
>Yes. I started in 1994.
>
>

Historically Usenet News really mature by the early 80's.
I remember building Bnews and Cnews and running them both out of my house
with rn and trn and tin running on various boxes from a Xenix86 box
on and AT&T 6300 and later on a couple of MicroXelos (UniPlus SysV)
(Concurrent Computer XF200 and Perkin-Elmer 7300) boxes and finally 
moving to FreeBSD/NetBSD/Linux on a 2nd hand 386sx...

We supplied a number of news groups for free around a three county 
area using select forward to avoid having to pay phone charges.  For
$5.00/month NJBell would let me forward to a friends modem line and 
he/she would be either receiving the news or forwarding to the next
person on the chain by routing my modem line to the next number in 
the UUCP chain.

Sometimes we had up to 8 forwarding points me->fwd1_modem_line->
fwd2->modem_line... all the way down to the 8th number in the calling 
chain.

We pretty much eliminated any connection charges beyond our flat-rate 
phone line charges.  Thanks to one of my late wife's roommates who
tipped us to this available service.  They also had 17 phone lines
into the house for an early modem chat system, two BBS's and our
own modem line.
 
Worked great and was blowing the minds of local BBS users who all wanted
to put it into Fido or Citadel...

Bill
-- 
-- 
Digital had it then.  Don't you wish you could buy it now!
pechter-at-gmail.com  http://xkcd.com/705/

On Fri, 22 Jul 2016 20:25:44 -0400
Bud Frede <fr...@mouse-potato.com> wrote:

> I read "The City and the Stars" again last year and enjoyed it as much
> as ever. He wrote some really great stories, although I'm not as fond of
> some of the things he collaborated on later in life.

	I recall seeing a comment by him suggesting that he was less than
happy with some of them too (IIRC it was Garden of Rama he made a
disparaging remark about). As for the Baxter collaborations they're pretty
much pure Baxter AFAICS - Baxter never has worked out how to finish a story,
which Clarke was *very* good at.

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:>WIN                                      | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

Bud Frede <fr...@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
> Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> writes:
> 
>> Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>> On Thursday, July 21, 2016 at 6:02:07 AM UTC-6, Peter Flass wrote:
>>> 
>>>> I don't even remember now, but  I do recall chipping messages  into a stone
>>>> tablet and sending them by camel caravan.
>>> 
>>> Have you visited Mars - after an encounter with hostile Apache Indians - by any 
>>> chance?
>>> 
>> 
>> Yes, I left my thoat double-parked when I came back.
> 
> After reading a number of references to ER Burroughs in Robert
> Heinlein's books and talking to other people that enjoyed them, I wanted
> to like the Barsoom books.
> 
> I didn't particularly care for the several that I read, although they
> were better than the Tarzan books I tried. I kept thinking, "When is it
> going to get good, like I've heard people say it is?"

I think if you were 10 at the time the books came out (1920s?) you would
have gotten excited by them, and usually whatever you like at age 10
remains a sentimental favorite.  Remember this was the time Lowell was
seeing "canals" on Mars, so thoughts of martians and lost civilizations
were in the air.

I read the Barsoom Series when I was a teenager, and I enjoyed them, but
thought they weren't in the same class as RAH and ACC.

> 
> Heinlein also talked up EE Smith. I tried some of the Lensman books and
> Skylark books and they're not my cup of tea either.

Same scenario.  I read one or two many years later.  Unfortunately I now
think most early SF is dated, with wooden characters, clunky plots, and
science that didn't hold up.  I recently read one of the Lensman books and
was startled to see references to atomic energy, but I now understand that
Smith went back and revised some of his stuff.

> 
> I'll go for a trifecta. One of my friends tried to get me interested in
> the Conan books. They put me to sleep.
> 
> I'm sure there is someone out there who will denounce me for not knowing
> great fiction when I see it, but I'll just have to hang my head in shame
> and live with it.
> 



-- 
Pete

On Sat, 23 Jul 2016 08:24:35 -0400
Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> <ma...@mail.com> wrote:
> > On 2016-07-23, Bud Frede <fr...@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
> >> ma...@mail.com writes:
> >> 
> >> 
> >> I can make some allowances for racism, at least if I feel there are
> >> other redeeming features to the book.
> >> 
> >> I read "The City and the Stars" again last year and enjoyed it as much
> >> as ever. He wrote some really great stories, although I'm not as fond
> >> of some of the things he collaborated on later in life.
> >> 
> > 
> > Like pterry. I suppose that at a certain time, one feels the need to get
> > as mucch cash together to provide for who is left.
> 
> Something like Rama leaves the reader wanting more, but it's a shame when
> the "more" is so inferior to the original.

	It is always better to leave your audience wanting more than to
give them too much.

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:>WIN                                      | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

In article <1534685849.490968298.111696.peter_flass-
yaho...@news.eternal-september.org>, peter...@yahoo.com says...
> 
> Bud Frede <fr...@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
> > Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> writes:
> > 
> >> Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> >>> On Thursday, July 21, 2016 at 6:02:07 AM UTC-6, Peter Flass wrote:
> >>> 
> >>>> I don't even remember now, but  I do recall chipping messages  into a stone
> >>>> tablet and sending them by camel caravan.
> >>> 
> >>> Have you visited Mars - after an encounter with hostile Apache Indians - by any 
> >>> chance?
> >>> 
> >> 
> >> Yes, I left my thoat double-parked when I came back.
> > 
> > After reading a number of references to ER Burroughs in Robert
> > Heinlein's books and talking to other people that enjoyed them, I wanted
> > to like the Barsoom books.
> > 
> > I didn't particularly care for the several that I read, although they
> > were better than the Tarzan books I tried. I kept thinking, "When is it
> > going to get good, like I've heard people say it is?"
> 
> I think if you were 10 at the time the books came out (1920s?) you would
> have gotten excited by them, and usually whatever you like at age 10
> remains a sentimental favorite.  Remember this was the time Lowell was
> seeing "canals" on Mars, so thoughts of martians and lost civilizations
> were in the air.

1912-1948
 
> I read the Barsoom Series when I was a teenager, and I enjoyed them, but
> thought they weren't in the same class as RAH and ACC.
> 
> > 
> > Heinlein also talked up EE Smith. I tried some of the Lensman books and
> > Skylark books and they're not my cup of tea either.
> 
> Same scenario.  I read one or two many years later.  Unfortunately I now
> think most early SF is dated, with wooden characters, clunky plots, and
> science that didn't hold up.  I recently read one of the Lensman books and
> was startled to see references to atomic energy, but I now understand that
> Smith went back and revised some of his stuff.

Why would references to atomic energy in '30s science fiction surprise 
you?  The first use of the term "atomic bomb" in a story was by HG Wells 
in 1914.  Heinlein wrote two stories involving nuclear energy before the 
Manhattan Project was started--one pretty much predicted the Cold War 
and the other involved a power plant accident.

As for "science that didn't hold up", one large subgenre of science 
fiction involves fictional science.  Why should fictional science "hold 
up"?  Smith was a PhD engineer--when he was using fictional science he 
knew he was using it and did it by intent.

> > I'll go for a trifecta. One of my friends tried to get me interested 
in
> > the Conan books. They put me to sleep.
> > 
> > I'm sure there is someone out there who will denounce me for not knowing
> > great fiction when I see it, but I'll just have to hang my head in shame
> > and live with it.
> > 

On 2016-07-23, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
> On Sat, 23 Jul 2016 08:24:35 -0400
> Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> <ma...@mail.com> wrote:
>> > Like pterry. I suppose that at a certain time, one feels the need to get
>> > as mucch cash together to provide for who is left.
>> 
>> Something like Rama leaves the reader wanting more, but it's a shame when
>> the "more" is so inferior to the original.
>
> 	It is always better to leave your audience wanting more than to
> give them too much.
>

or so the ladies tell us :)

-- 
greymaus.ireland.ie
 .
  .
...

In article <20160723134910.c67a...@eircom.net>, 
ste...@eircom.net says...
> 
> On Sat, 23 Jul 2016 08:24:35 -0400
> Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> > <ma...@mail.com> wrote:
> > > On 2016-07-23, Bud Frede <fr...@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
> > >> ma...@mail.com writes:
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> I can make some allowances for racism, at least if I feel there are
> > >> other redeeming features to the book.
> > >> 
> > >> I read "The City and the Stars" again last year and enjoyed it as much
> > >> as ever. He wrote some really great stories, although I'm not as fond
> > >> of some of the things he collaborated on later in life.
> > >> 
> > > 
> > > Like pterry. I suppose that at a certain time, one feels the need to get
> > > as mucch cash together to provide for who is left.
> > 
> > Something like Rama leaves the reader wanting more, but it's a shame when
> > the "more" is so inferior to the original.
> 
> 	It is always better to leave your audience wanting more than to
> give them too much.

Worked for Gypsy.

On Sat, 23 Jul 2016, ma...@mail.com wrote:

> On 2016-07-23, Bud Frede <fr...@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
>> ma...@mail.com writes:
>>
>>
>> I can make some allowances for racism, at least if I feel there are
>> other redeeming features to the book.
>>
>> I read "The City and the Stars" again last year and enjoyed it as much
>> as ever. He wrote some really great stories, although I'm not as fond of
>> some of the things he collaborated on later in life.
>>
>
> Like pterry. I suppose that at a certain time, one feels the need to get
> as mucch cash together to provide for who is left.
>
I think that makes the issue worse.

The later books come way later, probably under the assumption that the 
famliar will sell well, for retirement or whatever.  But decades later the 
author has changed (assuming the original author is going to write the new 
book(s), so the sequels can't be like sequels written at the time.  And 
too often (the Foundation books), someone decides to fork in some of the 
other popular books, so suddenly you have a story that isn't what you 
thought it was decades ago, and the author acts like "Of course this is 
the way it should have been all along".

Go back to the originals, and the market was much smaller.  The magazines, 
and maybe a book reprint.  So many classic SF books were series of stories 
written for the magazines, then the chance came along to make them a book, 
so editing done and maybe some more bits added.  But there was still a 
limit after the books came along, just as there was a limit for the 
original stories in the magazines (no, we can't take more of these, the 
readers are tired), so one must assume that factored in at the time.  Then 
decades later, the author gets a chance to revisit it, and does damage to 
the original by adding to it.

Except for "Job", all of the Heinlein books after "I Will Fear No Evil" or 
"Tie Enough for Love" (whichever came last), I've only read once, as they 
came out.  I should revisit some, like "Friday", but those last books 
often seemed like "kitchen sink" books, throwing everything into them.

Same with Asimov's Foundation series, suddenly the robot detective books 
fold into the Foundation Trilogy?  I can't remember if I read all of the 
"sequels", but I'm not interested in rereading the ones I did read.

   Michael

On Sat, 23 Jul 2016 09:29:45 -0400
"J. Clarke" <j.clark...@gmail.com> wrote:

> In article <1534685849.490968298.111696.peter_flass-
> yaho...@news.eternal-september.org>, peter...@yahoo.com says...
> > 
> > Same scenario.  I read one or two many years later.  Unfortunately I now
> > think most early SF is dated, with wooden characters, clunky plots, and
> > science that didn't hold up.  I recently read one of the Lensman books
> > and was startled to see references to atomic energy, but I now
> > understand that Smith went back and revised some of his stuff.
> 
> Why would references to atomic energy in '30s science fiction surprise 
> you?  The first use of the term "atomic bomb" in a story was by HG Wells 
> in 1914.  Heinlein wrote two stories involving nuclear energy before the 
> Manhattan Project was started--one pretty much predicted the Cold War 
> and the other involved a power plant accident.

	You beat me to it on atomic energy - although I had forgotten the
H.G. Wells reference which is of course older than any I had in mind.

	I reread the Lensman series (apart from the one tacked on the end
after the story finished) a few years back. I was surprised to find it
better than I was expecting from my memory of it. Certainly the dated
attitudes show strongly, but that's inescapable even the most progressive
have attitudes rooted in their time. The section where he parodies his own
writing style is amusing - clearly he was deliberately walking a line with
that style, one that would not be in the same place if he writing today.

	One thing from Triplanetary - was that level of political cynicism
common then ?

> As for "science that didn't hold up", one large subgenre of science 
> fiction involves fictional science.  Why should fictional science "hold 
> up"?  Smith was a PhD engineer--when he was using fictional science he 
> knew he was using it and did it by intent.

	Indeed, and while it is common for science fiction authors to try
and make their fictional science consistent with the real thing as much as
possible it is amazingly hard to do and I don't think he did badly given
when he was writing.

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:>WIN                                      | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

On Sat, 23 Jul 2016 17:30:38 +0100, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:

> On Sat, 23 Jul 2016 09:29:45 -0400 "J. Clarke"
> <j.clark...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> 
>> In article <1534685849.490968298.111696.peter_flass-
>> yaho...@news.eternal-september.org>, peter...@yahoo.com says...
>> > 
>> > Same scenario.  I read one or two many years later.  Unfortunately I
>> > now think most early SF is dated, with wooden characters, clunky
>> > plots, and science that didn't hold up.  I recently read one of the
>> > Lensman books and was startled to see references to atomic energy,
>> > but I now understand that Smith went back and revised some of his
>> > stuff.
>> 
>> Why would references to atomic energy in '30s science fiction surprise
>> you?  The first use of the term "atomic bomb" in a story was by HG
>> Wells in 1914.  Heinlein wrote two stories involving nuclear energy
>> before the Manhattan Project was started--one pretty much predicted the
>> Cold War and the other involved a power plant accident.
> 
> 	You beat me to it on atomic energy - although I had forgotten the
> H.G. Wells reference which is of course older than any I had in mind.

"For The Flag", wasn't it? I remember reading that in my teens.



-- 
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

On 2016-07-23, Bud Frede <fr...@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
> I can make some allowances for racism, at least if I feel there are
> other redeeming features to the book.

That's mighty white of you.

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Roger Blake (Posts from Google Groups killfiled due to excess spam.)

  NSA sedition and treason -- http://www.DeathToNSAthugs.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

In article <dvihetF...@mid.individual.net>, news...@eager.cx 
says...
> 
> On Sat, 23 Jul 2016 17:30:38 +0100, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> 
> > On Sat, 23 Jul 2016 09:29:45 -0400 "J. Clarke"
> > <j.clark...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > 
> >> In article <1534685849.490968298.111696.peter_flass-
> >> yaho...@news.eternal-september.org>, peter...@yahoo.com says...
> >> > 
> >> > Same scenario.  I read one or two many years later.  Unfortunately I
> >> > now think most early SF is dated, with wooden characters, clunky
> >> > plots, and science that didn't hold up.  I recently read one of the
> >> > Lensman books and was startled to see references to atomic energy,
> >> > but I now understand that Smith went back and revised some of his
> >> > stuff.
> >> 
> >> Why would references to atomic energy in '30s science fiction surprise
> >> you?  The first use of the term "atomic bomb" in a story was by HG
> >> Wells in 1914.  Heinlein wrote two stories involving nuclear energy
> >> before the Manhattan Project was started--one pretty much predicted the
> >> Cold War and the other involved a power plant accident.
> > 
> > 	You beat me to it on atomic energy - although I had forgotten the
> > H.G. Wells reference which is of course older than any I had in mind.
> 
> "For The Flag", wasn't it? I remember reading that in my teens.

"The World Set Free".  According to Wiki Szilard read it a year before 
he discovered the neutron chain reaction that led to the real bomb.  
"For the Flag", aka "Facing the Flag" is Verne.

On Sun, 24 Jul 2016 02:48:40 -0400, J. Clarke wrote:

> In article <dvihetF...@mid.individual.net>, news...@eager.cx
> says...
>> 
>> On Sat, 23 Jul 2016 17:30:38 +0100, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>> 
>> > On Sat, 23 Jul 2016 09:29:45 -0400 "J. Clarke"
>> > <j.clark...@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> > 
>> >> In article <1534685849.490968298.111696.peter_flass-
>> >> yaho...@news.eternal-september.org>, peter...@yahoo.com says...
>> >> > 
>> >> > Same scenario.  I read one or two many years later.  Unfortunately
>> >> > I now think most early SF is dated, with wooden characters, clunky
>> >> > plots, and science that didn't hold up.  I recently read one of
>> >> > the Lensman books and was startled to see references to atomic
>> >> > energy, but I now understand that Smith went back and revised some
>> >> > of his stuff.
>> >> 
>> >> Why would references to atomic energy in '30s science fiction
>> >> surprise you?  The first use of the term "atomic bomb" in a story
>> >> was by HG Wells in 1914.  Heinlein wrote two stories involving
>> >> nuclear energy before the Manhattan Project was started--one pretty
>> >> much predicted the Cold War and the other involved a power plant
>> >> accident.
>> > 
>> > 	You beat me to it on atomic energy - although I had forgotten the
>> > H.G. Wells reference which is of course older than any I had in mind.
>> 
>> "For The Flag", wasn't it? I remember reading that in my teens.
> 
> "The World Set Free".  According to Wiki Szilard read it a year before
> he discovered the neutron chain reaction that led to the real bomb. "For
> the Flag", aka "Facing the Flag" is Verne.

Ah, yes. My mistake!

-- 
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

On Fri, 29 Jul 2016 17:28:24 +0100, gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339 wrote:

> As always ...
> 
> "Those that can, do.
> Those that can't, teach.
> Those that can't teach, teach PE.
> Those that can't teach PE, join the plods.
> Those that can't plod, join the traffic plods (Brit) / highway patrol
> (Yank)
> Those that can't traffic plod, are on sale in the vegetable rack in your
> local supermarket."

And as always, a load of crap.
-- 
UNIX since v6 (1975)...
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

On Fri, 29 Jul 2016 18:20:20 +0100, Bob Eager <news...@eager.cx> wrote:

> On Fri, 29 Jul 2016 17:28:24 +0100, gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339 wrote:
>
>> As always ...
>>
>> "Those that can, do.
>> Those that can't, teach.
>> Those that can't teach, teach PE.
>> Those that can't teach PE, join the plods.
>> Those that can't plod, join the traffic plods (Brit) / highway patrol
>> (Yank)
>> Those that can't traffic plod, are on sale in the vegetable rack in your
>> local supermarket."
>
> And as always, a load of crap.

PDFTT
-- 
Bah, and indeed, Humbug

On 2016-07-30, Bud Frede <fr...@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
> Yes, isn't it? Or it would be if ignoring racist sections of an old book
> were a sign of bigotry.

Political correctness is a disease. It's gotten so bad that most people
can't even quote the word "nigger" out of a Mark Twain book without
being fearful of an angry mob.

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Roger Blake (Posts from Google Groups killfiled due to excess spam.)

  NSA sedition and treason -- http://www.DeathToNSAthugs.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Sat, 30 Jul 2016 00:29:34 +0100, Bud Frede <fr...@mouse-potato.com>  
wrote:

> ma...@mail.com writes:
>
>> On 2016-07-23, Bud Frede <fr...@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
>>> ma...@mail.com writes:
>>>
>>>
>>> I can make some allowances for racism, at least if I feel there are
>>> other redeeming features to the book.
>>>
>>> I read "The City and the Stars" again last year and enjoyed it as much
>>> as ever. He wrote some really great stories, although I'm not as fond  
>>> of
>>> some of the things he collaborated on later in life.
>>>
>>
>> Like pterry. I suppose that at a certain time, one feels the need to get
>> as mucch cash together to provide for who is left.
>
>
> I'm sure that leaving money and royalties was a motivation for pterry
> too, but I think he also wanted to provide for his fans and create as
> many stories as he could while he was still able to.
>
> Some authors enjoy their fans and some would rather they remain at a
> distance. Pterry was the former and both Heinlein and Clarke were more
> the latter.
>
> "Snuff" was the last one I read. I have a copy of "Raising Steam," but
> I'm saving it. I don't know for what, but somehow I haven't read it yet
> and I haven't bought a copy of "The Shepherd's Crown." I eagerly awaited
> all of the previous books and read them as soon as I could. I guess I
> don't want it to end, and as long as there are books unread it hasn't
> ended.

Their not quite, erm, up to snuff.


-- 
Bah, and indeed, Humbug

Bud Frede <fr...@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
> Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> writes:
> 
>> On 2016-07-23, Bud Frede <fr...@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
>>> I can make some allowances for racism, at least if I feel there are
>>> other redeeming features to the book.
>> 
>> That's mighty white of you.
> 
> Yes, isn't it? Or it would be if ignoring racist sections of an old book
> were a sign of bigotry.
> 

Someone tried to come out with an edition of Huck Finn edited to remove the
references in question.  Fortunately everyone raised such an uproar it
didn't get done.

-- 
Pete

"Kerr Mudd-John" <ad...@127.0.0.1> wrote in message 
news:op.yldo73womsr2db@dell3100.workgroup...
> On Fri, 29 Jul 2016 18:20:20 +0100, Bob Eager <news...@eager.cx> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 29 Jul 2016 17:28:24 +0100, gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339 wrote:
>>
>>> As always ...
>>>
>>> "Those that can, do.
>>> Those that can't, teach.
>>> Those that can't teach, teach PE.

Unfortunately, "those that can't teach"... pretend to teach and children get 
an inferior education because of it!!!

--

numerist at aquaporin4 dot com

"Roger Blake" <rogblake@iname.invalid> wrote in message 
news:20160730003132@news.eternal-september.org...
> On 2016-07-30, Bud Frede <fr...@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
>> Yes, isn't it? Or it would be if ignoring racist sections of an old book
>> were a sign of bigotry.
>
> Political correctness is a disease. It's gotten so bad that most people
> can't even quote the word "nigger" out of a Mark Twain book without
> being fearful of an angry mob.
>

Exactly!!! When someone quotes the words of an evil person on the news 
media, I don't want to hear that "he used the N-word".  What the hell is the 
"N-word"??? I can think of hundreds of N-words!!!   At my advanced age 
(a-hem!) I will *never* be more ready to hear the truth told "straight 
up"!!!  All this "N-word" crap is an insult to my intelligence!!!

-- 

numerist at aquaporin4 dot com

"Charles Richmond" <nume...@aquaporin4.com> wrote in message 
news:nni2jg$cl1$1@dont-email.me...
> "Roger Blake" <rogblake@iname.invalid> wrote in message 
> news:20160730003132@news.eternal-september.org...
>> On 2016-07-30, Bud Frede <fr...@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
>>> Yes, isn't it? Or it would be if ignoring racist sections of an old book
>>> were a sign of bigotry.
>>
>> Political correctness is a disease. It's gotten so bad that most people
>> can't even quote the word "nigger" out of a Mark Twain book without
>> being fearful of an angry mob.
>>
>
> Exactly!!! When someone quotes the words of an evil person on the news 
> media, I don't want to hear that "he used the N-word".  What the hell is 
> the "N-word"??? I can think of hundreds of N-words!!!   At my advanced age 
> (a-hem!) I will *never* be more ready to hear the truth told "straight 
> up"!!!  All this "N-word" crap is an insult to my intelligence!!!

Over here in Brit, there was an occasion reported of excessively PC oriented
people taking exception to the word, "niggardly".

On Sat, 30 Jul 2016 18:54:02 +0100
"gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> wrote:

> Over here in Brit, there was an occasion reported of excessively PC
> oriented people taking exception to the word, "niggardly".

	Almost as silly as censoring Scunthorpe.

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:>WIN                                      | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

"Charles Richmond" <nume...@aquaporin4.com> writes:

> "Kerr Mudd-John" <ad...@127.0.0.1> wrote in message 
> news:op.yldo73womsr2db@dell3100.workgroup...
>> On Fri, 29 Jul 2016 18:20:20 +0100, Bob Eager <news...@eager.cx> wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 29 Jul 2016 17:28:24 +0100, gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339 wrote:
>>>
>>>> As always ...
>>>>
>>>> "Those that can, do.
>>>> Those that can't, teach.
>>>> Those that can't teach, teach PE.
> 
> Unfortunately, "those that can't teach"... pretend to teach and children get 
> an inferior education because of it!!!

Indeed.  To teach well, one needs the ability to infer what's going on
the heads of the learners, whether they're kids, youth or adults.
Unfortunately, training for teachers (and for many other occupations)
tends toward a frame of reference in which the trainees learn to go
through the motions -- this curricular bit, then that one; this
exercize then that one; this quiz or that -- and are at a loss when
their subsequent students don't get it.

Understanding (and being able to address) how it is that a learner
"doesn't get it", whether in grammar, calculus or, say, metalsmithing,
is the thing that distinguishes a teacher from a teaching
machine. (Remember those?)

It's nice to be able to "just go through the motions" and have it
work.  But even those with wizard-level skills and experience can't
rely on getting away with it.  Too many people want to slack off with,
"I've done the training -- I'm *past* that. This is what they said in
training.  This is what you do."  There are, I suppose, jobs where the
management wants that in employees and some where the management
operates on the same rubric (phone support droids?) but it isn't how
real humans accomplish anything of substance.

-- 
Mike Spencer                  Nova Scotia, Canada

Bud Frede <fr...@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
> Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> writes:
> 
>> On 2016-07-30, Bud Frede <fr...@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
>>> Yes, isn't it? Or it would be if ignoring racist sections of an old book
>>> were a sign of bigotry.
>> 
>> Political correctness is a disease. It's gotten so bad that most people
>> can't even quote the word "nigger" out of a Mark Twain book without
>> being fearful of an angry mob.
> 
> I would probably use a euphemism instead, even if discussing one of
> Twain's works. I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings because I've been
> there and it felt awful.
> 
> On the other hand, if it's an ugly, racist word, why is any use of it
> allowed? That's kind of puzzled me. I don't use derogatory words in
> conversation with or to describe other members of my ethnic group.
> 
> 

I, on the other hand, am perfectly happy to use such words to describe
myself, and also enjoy most of the jokes.People need to get over
themselves.

-- 
Pete

On 2016-08-03, Bud Frede <fr...@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
> Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> writes:
>
>> On 2016-07-30, Bud Frede <fr...@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
>>> Yes, isn't it? Or it would be if ignoring racist sections of an old book
>>> were a sign of bigotry.
>>
>> Political correctness is a disease. It's gotten so bad that most people
>> can't even quote the word "nigger" out of a Mark Twain book without
>> being fearful of an angry mob.
>
> I would probably use a euphemism instead, even if discussing one of
> Twain's works. I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings because I've been
> there and it felt awful.
>
> On the other hand, if it's an ugly, racist word, why is any use of it
> allowed? That's kind of puzzled me. I don't use derogatory words in
> conversation with or to describe other members of my ethnic group.
>

IMHO, Twain was a great writer... and that fact that he
used everyday idioms for that time, shows it.

I think that he once wrote something like "Anyone who writes
withount getting paid for it is a Jackass"

-- 
greymaus.ireland.ie
 .
  .
...

On 2016-08-03, maus <ma...@mail.com> wrote:

> On 2016-08-03, Bud Frede <fr...@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
>
>> Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> writes:
>>
>>> On 2016-07-30, Bud Frede <fr...@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Yes, isn't it? Or it would be if ignoring racist sections of an old book
>>>> were a sign of bigotry.
>>>
>>> Political correctness is a disease. It's gotten so bad that most people
>>> can't even quote the word "nigger" out of a Mark Twain book without
>>> being fearful of an angry mob.
>>
>> I would probably use a euphemism instead, even if discussing one of
>> Twain's works. I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings because I've been
>> there and it felt awful.
>>
>> On the other hand, if it's an ugly, racist word, why is any use of it
>> allowed? That's kind of puzzled me. I don't use derogatory words in
>> conversation with or to describe other members of my ethnic group.
>
> IMHO, Twain was a great writer... and that fact that he
> used everyday idioms for that time, shows it.

And that's exactly the point.  When he wrote his books he wasn't aware
of 21st-century Political Correctness.  (Nor would he have cared if he
did.)

I remember what an eye-opener it was to read "Gone With the Wind".
Not only did it portray some of the seamier side of plantation life,
it did so as something completely normal - which it was at the time.
Scarlett O'Hara, raised in such an environment, took it for granted
because it was the only life she knew (and because she was too
self-centered to look beyond it).

-- 
/~\  cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ /  I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
 X   Top-posted messages will probably be ignored.  See RFC1855.
/ \  HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored.  Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!

On 25/01/2018 13:00, Dan Espen wrote:
> Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> writes:
> 
>> On Wednesday, January 24, 2018 at 2:43:49 PM UTC-7, han...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>> I think the 1460 was totally
>>> compatible, while the 1410 required a mode switch while its
>>> native-mode programs were similar, but not compatible.
>>
>> I'm not sure of the model number, but I know there indeed was a machine related
>> to the 1401 but not compatible: the address fields in instructions were five
>> characters long instead of three.
> 
> That's the 1410.  It could run with 3 character addresses or 5 character
> addresses.
> 
> The 1410 5 character address was accounted for in the 1401 with the
> placement of the 1401 index registers in memory at locations:
> 
> 087-089, 092-094 and 097-099
> 
> Clearly the slack 2 characters between each register were to account for
> the 1410 5 character index.
> 

Does that mean decimal addressing?

Yes, the 1401 was wholly decimal.

Gareth's Downstairs Computer
<headstone255.but.n...@yahoo.com> writes:

> On 25/01/2018 13:00, Dan Espen wrote:
>> Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> writes:
>>
>>> On Wednesday, January 24, 2018 at 2:43:49 PM UTC-7, han...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>>> I think the 1460 was totally
>>>> compatible, while the 1410 required a mode switch while its
>>>> native-mode programs were similar, but not compatible.
>>>
>>> I'm not sure of the model number, but I know there indeed was a machine related
>>> to the 1401 but not compatible: the address fields in instructions were five
>>> characters long instead of three.
>>
>> That's the 1410.  It could run with 3 character addresses or 5 character
>> addresses.
>>
>> The 1410 5 character address was accounted for in the 1401 with the
>> placement of the 1401 index registers in memory at locations:
>>
>> 087-089, 092-094 and 097-099
>>
>> Clearly the slack 2 characters between each register were to account for
>> the 1410 5 character index.
>
> Does that mean decimal addressing?

Close, but the 1401 could address 16K with the three characters.
Addresses ran from 001 to 999, then the first char started adding bits.
With BCD you had 2 extra bits for higher addresses so first you turned
on just the A bit, then the B bit, then both the bits.  Then you did the
same thing to the low order character.  The BA bits on the middle
character were for the 3 index registers.  So, 3 character address
"ZZZ" was 15999 plus index register 3.

The size of fields was determined by the word mark.
Just for fun, on an 8K 1440 I wrote code that repetitively
added 1 to an almost 8K digit number.  You could easily watch
the console lights increment through the 8K address for each add.

To add 1 to an 8K number was something like:

      ORG 300
ONE   DC  '1'
START CS  15999     clear storage at top
      CHAIN 156     clear storage down to 300*
      SW  300       set word mark at begin
ADD   A   15999,ONE add 1 to really large number
      B   ADD

* Not responsible for any off by 1 errors.

The CHAIN mnemonic just repeated the OP CODE for the
previous instruction as often as you specified, so
"CHAIN 156" is 156 CS instructions.  Each used the
"A address" from the previous instruction.

The word mark was usually described using an underscore.

A really nice thing about the architecture was that you could
omit addresses from instructions, the machine would use the last
address it referenced.  So for a set of accumulators you could:


      ORG 300
AMT1  DC '000000'
AMT2  DC '000'
AMT3  DC '00000000'
AMT4  DC '00000000'
      ORG 400
TOT1  DC '000000'
TOT2  DC '000'
TOT3  DC '000000000'  note longer fields in totals
TOT4  DC '000000000'

      A  TOT4,AMT4
      A
      A
      A

which looked like this in memory:

      _A423325_A_A_A

On these smaller machines, this could be used
to save oodles of memory.

The S/360 salesman did not appreciate it when
I pointed out that we couldn't even come close
to replacing our 8K 1440 with an 16K S/360.

-- 
Dan Espen

On 26/01/2018 03:40, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Thursday, January 25, 2018 at 3:59:46 PM UTC-7, Dan Espen wrote:
> 
>> Reading again, you are correct.
>> The 1620 flag bit was multipurpose.
>> Only one of the purposes was word mark.
> 
>> Not very similar to a 1401 at all.
>> I don't think I'd like to have programmed one.
> 
> It's true that it wasn't very similar to a 1401. The 1401 was a machine for
> businesses - it inspired the packed decimal and string instructions of the
> System/360. The IBM 705 was another commercial machine, but it was
> completely different; it used a special character to mark the end of
> numbers.
> 
> The 1620, on the other hand, was a small-scale *scientific* computer,
> despite the fact that it used decimal arithmetic. It wasn't usually
> programmed in assembler language; people used the FORTRAN compiler that
> came with it.
> 
> Which means that although the FORTRAN for such a small machine was rather
> limited, it still wasn't going to be that much harder to program than, say,
> a Commodore 64 with BASIC.
> 
> John Savard
> 
Yes I learnt Fortran on a 1620. I don't think it was limited compared 
other Fortran II compilers. The lack of implicit conversion was what bit 
me, so writing X+1 rather than X+1.0...

Dave

On Thursday, January 25, 2018 at 12:29:26 PM UTC-5, Dan Espen wrote:

[snip]
> On these smaller machines, this could be used
> to save oodles of memory.
> 
> The S/360 salesman did not appreciate it when
> I pointed out that we couldn't even come close
> to replacing our 8K 1440 with an 16K S/360.

Memory addressing was a big issue in the original concept of 
System/360.  Small machines had simple addresses which saved
memory, big machines had more complex addresses.  Providing space
for a large address was wasteful in a small machine, most
S/360 users were getting small ones.  As a compromise, IBM came
up with the base+displacement method.

I'll let others debate whether that was a good idea or not, and
whether later approaches (such as the x86 addressing) were better.

I would say that it must have been a good idea, because what 
the later x86 did with segment + offset was very nearly the
same thing.

On 2018-01-27, Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

> I would say that it must have been a good idea, because what 
> the later x86 did with segment + offset was very nearly the
> same thing.

The 360's "4k barrier" wasn't nearly as onerous as the x86's 64K
barrier; at least the 360's registers could hold a full address.

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On Sat, 27 Jan 2018 20:18:37 +0000, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> On 2018-01-27, Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> 
>> I would say that it must have been a good idea, because what the later
>> x86 did with segment + offset was very nearly the same thing.
> 
> The 360's "4k barrier" wasn't nearly as onerous as the x86's 64K
> barrier; at least the 360's registers could hold a full address.

FSVO full - 24 bits? (until XA)

-- 
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

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Bob Eager <news...@eager.cx> writes:
> FSVO full - 24 bits? (until XA)

modulo 360/67 and (virtual) 32bit mode
http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/360/funcChar/GA27-2719-2_360-67_funcChar.pdf

... over decade later XA with 3081 was only 31bit. a little 3081 XA
http://www.jfsowa.com/computer/memo125.htm

3033 did have gimmick with 26bit mode ... instruction addressing was
only 24bit addressing ... but could have 64mbytes real storage. page
tables entries were half-words, 16bits, 12bit virtual 4kbyte page number
...  (12bit number + 12bit displacement, 24bits), reference bit, change
bit, and two undefined bits. 3033 took two undefined bits and prefixed
them to 12bit page number for 14bit (real) page number. Large number of
24bit virtual address spaces ...  mapped to 26bit real address.

past post mentioning 3033 26bit real address hack:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001b.html#69 Z/90, S/390, 370/ESA (slightly off topic)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#13 GETMAIN R/RU (was: An IEABRC Adventure)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002c.html#40 using >=4GB of memory on a 32-bit processor
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003d.html#26 Antiquity of Byte-Word addressing?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004.html#0 comp.arch classic: the 10-bit byte
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004.html#17 Holee shit!  30 years ago!
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004c.html#6 If the x86 ISA could be redone
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004n.html#50 Integer types for 128-bit addressing
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004o.html#57 Integer types for 128-bit addressing
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005.html#34 increasing addressable memory via paged memory?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005p.html#1 Intel engineer discusses their dual-core design
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005p.html#19 address space
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006p.html#0 DASD Response Time (on antique 3390?)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007o.html#10 IBM 8000 series
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007o.html#56 360/30 memory
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008f.html#12 Fantasy-Land_Hierarchal_NUMA_Memory-Model_on_Vertical
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010.html#84 locate mode, was Happy DEC-10 Day
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010l.html#6 Z/OS 31bit or 64bit
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011f.html#50 Dyadic vs AP: Was "CPU utilization/forecasting"
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011k.html#87 'smttter IBMdroids
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012e.html#80 Word Length
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012h.html#57 How will mainframers retiring be different from Y2K?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013c.html#48 What Makes an Architecture Bizarre?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013n.html#83 'Free Unix!': The world-changing proclamationmade30yearsagotoday
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014g.html#83 Costs of core
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014i.html#16 R.I.P. PDP-10?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014k.html#36 1950: Northrop's Digital Differential Analyzer
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015b.html#46 Connecting memory to 370/145 with only 36 bits
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2016b.html#35 Qbasic
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2017i.html#48 64 bit addressing into the future

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