🚀 go-pugleaf

I guess everyone got their video card fried by the main menu.
http://www.dailytech.com/Hot+Starcraft+II+is+Frying+Graphics+Cards+Blizzard+Issues+Temporary+Fix/article19224.htm 

On Mon, 2 Aug 2010 10:24:37 -0400, Jim wrote:

> I guess everyone got their video card fried by the main menu.
> http://www.dailytech.com/Hot+Starcraft+II+is+Frying+Graphics+Cards+Blizzard+Issues+Temporary+Fix/article19224.htm

Okay, so the menu graphics had no cap on the framerate, and some
people's cards overheated and were destroyed.

This is most definitely *not* the fault of Blizzard.  If a card can
run so hot as to destroy itself, that is either due to bad card
design/poor cooling, or overclocking.

The people demanding that Blizzard replace their hardware are just
whiners.

-- 
Hammer

"Lance Corporal Hammer Schultz" <starfist@gmail.invalid> wrote in message 
news:13v41qk1kdf5t$.dlg@starfist.thorsfinni...
> This is most definitely *not* the fault of Blizzard.  If a card can
> run so hot as to destroy itself, that is either due to bad card
> design/poor cooling, or overclocking.
The VRMs of the ATI 4000 series couldn't handle Furmark so the drivers 
throttled that app.  http://www.anandtech.com/show/2841/11
I haven't heard what cards were affected by SC2 but it looks like AMDs penny 
pinching has come to bite them in the ass. 

On Mon, 2 Aug 2010 13:50:47 -0500, Lance Corporal Hammer Schultz
<starfist@gmail.invalid> wrote:

>On Mon, 2 Aug 2010 10:24:37 -0400, Jim wrote:
>
>> I guess everyone got their video card fried by the main menu.
>> http://www.dailytech.com/Hot+Starcraft+II+is+Frying+Graphics+Cards+Blizzard+Issues+Temporary+Fix/article19224.htm
>
>Okay, so the menu graphics had no cap on the framerate, and some
>people's cards overheated and were destroyed.
>
>This is most definitely *not* the fault of Blizzard.  If a card can
>run so hot as to destroy itself, that is either due to bad card
>design/poor cooling, or overclocking.
>
>The people demanding that Blizzard replace their hardware are just
>whiners.

Agreed that it is not the software makers fault.  However, since
hardware makers cannot test on every game (particularly FUTURE games
that aren't out yet when the software is released), I do believe that
software vendors have an obligation to stress test (push it far beyond
what it was designed to do) on a wide variety of hardware, including
older POS machines that have been sitting in the corner, are packed
with dusts / spiderwebs / a rodent or two, etc.

This is especially true for this game, which has absolutely no excuse
for any sort of QA issue, because it would have sold just as many
copies no longer how long it sat in testing... same is true of any WoW
sequel, Diablo sequel, etc.  These games have such a following that
people do not even care if the graphics are cutting edge or not, they
are GOING to buy them even if its a decade later.

This is not to say I think Blizzard has any obligation to make
software changes to address the issue (unless perhaps it occurs on
properly installed, non-neglected hardware).  But they do have an
obligation to notify vendors of said POS cards (or drivers which is
more likely) that their faulty shit needs fixing, and /or notify the
consumer of what they found during testing, so the average joe doesn't
fry his card.

Anyway this game is not on Steam so I'm not buying it until (or *IF*)
it shows up there.  I had the first one and found it entertaining but
not enough for me to get back in the habit of cardboard boxes,
manually applied patches, having a DVD in the drive and all that other
sort of inconvenience, and I prefer to have all my games in one
location (Steam for now).  Although I might bend my rule for Diablo 3,
I'll be getting that one regardless.

On Aug 2, 11:50 am, Lance Corporal Hammer Schultz
<starf...@gmail.invalid> wrote:
> On Mon, 2 Aug 2010 10:24:37 -0400, Jim wrote:
> > I guess everyone got their video card fried by the main menu.
> >http://www.dailytech.com/Hot+Starcraft+II+is+Frying+Graphics+Cards+Bl...
>
> Okay, so the menu graphics had no cap on the framerate, and some
> people's cards overheated and were destroyed.
>
> This is most definitely *not* the fault of Blizzard.  If a card can
> run so hot as to destroy itself, that is either due to bad card
> design/poor cooling, or overclocking.

Blizzard most definitely deserves some of the blame. That post
indicates very sloppy programming on their part, filling an idle
rendering loop with as many active draws as possible instead of just
sending noops like any sane programmer would do. Most hardware in a PC
is designed to operate under a liberal definition of reasonable
operating conditions, they are not designed under the assumption that
the user or his software is actively attempting to destroy it with a
constant stream of stressful instructions. The publisher has a
responsibility to ensure that their software isn't going to damage the
computers of their millions of customers. The card manufacturer has a
responsibility to ensure it can run the thousands of properly coded
games out there, but can't protect against every piece of software
that behaves maliciously in some way.

It was also pretty much a douche move for Blizzard to immediately
shift blame to the user for not having adequate cooling. Blizzard
hasn't even examined the users' systems. They're just trying to avoid
responsibility (read: lawsuits). Then they meekly suggest changing a
couple of variables in the ini file -- which indicates to me that
someone forgot to turn off the card-killer stress-test settings before
releasing the gold master -- "if you want to". Gee, edit a couple
numbers in notepad or risk frying my video card. That's a tough one.
Too bad they didn't own up to their crappy programming mistake, might
have retained a bit of respect.

Partial blame can be assigned to the card manufacturer as well. Nobody
should get a free pass on this one. But the card manufacturers aren't
being douchebags about it.

> The people demanding that Blizzard replace their hardware are just
> whiners.

Maybe so, but that's easy to say if you weren't affected by it or if
you have a few hundred sitting around to piss away on a new video
card. Otherwise it's just as fair to say that you're insensitive and/
or elitist and that you're just taking the opportunity to revel in
other people's misery merely because you have a graphics card that
doesn't suffer from the issue (or maybe it does and you just haven't
left the main menu running long enough). Personally I'd rather listen
to the whiners. At least they have a point.

On Aug 3, 5:06 am, "Jim" <j...@wtf.invalid> wrote:
> I haven't heard what cards were affected by SC2 but it looks like AMDs penny
> pinching has come to bite them in the ass.

The original link -- that you posted -- mentions a $300 Nvidia GeForce.

On Tue, 3 Aug 2010 23:31:53 -0700 (PDT), yaugin wrote:

> Blizzard most definitely deserves some of the blame. That post
> indicates very sloppy programming on their part, filling an idle
> rendering loop with as many active draws as possible instead of just
> sending noops like any sane programmer would do.

You're missing the point.

Do you know what a CPU that can't do operations every cycle without
melting is called?  Defective.

It's not the job of game programmers to figure out how many cycles
they are "allowed" to use before hardware starts to fail, especially
when we're all using different hardware!  Most hardware *won't* fail
in this way.

> computers of their millions of customers. The card manufacturer has a
> responsibility to ensure it can run the thousands of properly coded
> games out there, but can't protect against every piece of software
> that behaves maliciously in some way.

There is nothing "malicious" about sending a "stream" of instructions
without idling to a processor.  That is how 99.9999999% of software
works.

> Partial blame can be assigned to the card manufacturer as well. Nobody

No, 100% blame goes to card design.  If the card can't handle
processing instructions at its set clock frequency, it is either not
being cooled properly or is overclocked.

There is no "blame" on Blizzard for this, but obviously they can help
work around bad card design by throttling their instruction speed.
That doesn't make them at fault for hardware that is so badly designed
or cooled that a steady stream of instructions destroys it.

> Maybe so, but that's easy to say if you weren't affected by it or if
> you have a few hundred sitting around to piss away on a new video
> card. Otherwise it's just as fair to say that you're insensitive and/
> or elitist and that you're just taking the opportunity to revel in
> other people's misery merely because you have a graphics card that

No, I just happens that I have actual *practical* experience in
software design and programming, have been building and testing
different computers for my entire adult life, and have basic reasoning
skills.

Your argument is like saying that anyone who sends an all-white, full
intensity image to a monitor is guilty of damaging the screen if it
can't handle showing 100% white.

-- 
Hammer

Lance Corporal Hammer Schultz <starfist@gmail.invalid> wrote:
>This is most definitely *not* the fault of Blizzard.  If a card can
>run so hot as to destroy itself, that is either due to bad card
>design/poor cooling, or overclocking.

Rin Stowleigh  <rstowleigh@gmail.com> wrote:
>Agreed that it is not the software makers fault.  However, since
>hardware makers cannot test on every game (particularly FUTURE games
>that aren't out yet when the software is released), I do believe that
>software vendors have an obligation to stress test (push it far beyond
>what it was designed to do) on a wide variety of hardware, including
>older POS machines that have been sitting in the corner, are packed
>with dusts / spiderwebs / a rodent or two, etc.

Destroying old poorly cooled machines in testing would accomplish nothing.
Any game could cause these PCs to overheat.

>This is not to say I think Blizzard has any obligation to make
>software changes to address the issue (unless perhaps it occurs on
>properly installed, non-neglected hardware).  But they do have an
>obligation to notify vendors of said POS cards (or drivers which is
>more likely) that their faulty shit needs fixing, and /or notify the
>consumer of what they found during testing, so the average joe doesn't
>fry his card.

Blizzard, like any game company, tests on a wide variety of hardware
before release.  I doubt any of their video cards died do due overheating.
Most of these "software causing the video cards to die" complaints aren't
any more the fault of the video hardware than they are of the software.
It's almost always the fault of the people who put their PC together,
often the end user himself.

Blizzard's only mistake was to release a very, very popular game during
the hottest time of the year in much of the world.  These PCs would've
died sooner or later anyways.

>Anyway this game is not on Steam so I'm not buying it until (or *IF*)
>it shows up there.  I had the first one and found it entertaining but
>not enough for me to get back in the habit of cardboard boxes,
>manually applied patches, having a DVD in the drive and all that other
>sort of inconvenience, and I prefer to have all my games in one
>location (Steam for now). 

I think you'll find Starcraft II has more sort of inconviences you'd
expect from a Steam game than a retail boxed game. 

					Ross Ridge

-- 
 l/  //	  Ross Ridge -- The Great HTMU
[oo][oo]  rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
-()-/()/  http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca/~rridge/ 
 db  //	  

On Wed, 4 Aug 2010 06:46:44 -0500, Lance Corporal Hammer Schultz
<starfist@gmail.invalid> wrote:

>No, I just happens that I have actual *practical* experience in
>software design and programming, have been building and testing
>different computers for my entire adult life, and have basic reasoning
>skills.
>
>Your argument is like saying that anyone who sends an all-white, full
>intensity image to a monitor is guilty of damaging the screen if it
>can't handle showing 100% white.

I also have 20 years of programming for a living and I fully agree
with you.  Had Blizzard noticed it during development they should have
taken precautions but there is no expectation for them to notice
something like this.  It's a hardware problem.

If hardware can be destroyed by improper software then they have a
major obligation to document that which you should not do.  These days
the low-level controllers normally are designed to avoid carrying out
dangerous commands and so only the people who write such stuff have to
be concerned with destroying hardware.

On Wed, 04 Aug 2010 09:57:59 -0400, Ross Ridge
<rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:

>Lance Corporal Hammer Schultz <starfist@gmail.invalid> wrote:
>>This is most definitely *not* the fault of Blizzard.  If a card can
>>run so hot as to destroy itself, that is either due to bad card
>>design/poor cooling, or overclocking.
>
>Rin Stowleigh  <rstowleigh@gmail.com> wrote:
>>Agreed that it is not the software makers fault.  However, since
>>hardware makers cannot test on every game (particularly FUTURE games
>>that aren't out yet when the software is released), I do believe that
>>software vendors have an obligation to stress test (push it far beyond
>>what it was designed to do) on a wide variety of hardware, including
>>older POS machines that have been sitting in the corner, are packed
>>with dusts / spiderwebs / a rodent or two, etc.
>
>Destroying old poorly cooled machines in testing would accomplish nothing.
>Any game could cause these PCs to overheat.

Measuring GPU/CPU temps across different machines, comparing the temps
of SC2 to other games would not be a bad idea; this was my only point.

>>This is not to say I think Blizzard has any obligation to make
>>software changes to address the issue (unless perhaps it occurs on
>>properly installed, non-neglected hardware).  But they do have an
>>obligation to notify vendors of said POS cards (or drivers which is
>>more likely) that their faulty shit needs fixing, and /or notify the
>>consumer of what they found during testing, so the average joe doesn't
>>fry his card.
>
>Blizzard, like any game company, tests on a wide variety of hardware
>before release.  I doubt any of their video cards died do due overheating.
>Most of these "software causing the video cards to die" complaints aren't
>any more the fault of the video hardware than they are of the software.
>It's almost always the fault of the people who put their PC together,
>often the end user himself.

I don't disagree with you here, I just think a software company
benefits by testing on a wide variety of systems, including poorly
built PCs, especially if they want people with poorly built PCs to
purchase their games.  An ounce of prevention goes a long way.  Its
cheaper to test and look for temperature issues than it is to field
lots of angry customers who think you owe them a new video card.

>Blizzard's only mistake was to release a very, very popular game during
>the hottest time of the year in much of the world.  These PCs would've
>died sooner or later anyways.

This is true but I hope it doesn't inspire a trend of releasing
graphically intensive games only in the winter months, or inspire game
vendors to hold up releases due to heat waves :)

Lance Corporal Hammer Schultz <starfist@gmail.invalid> wrote:
> Okay, so the menu graphics had no cap on the framerate, and some
> people's cards overheated and were destroyed.
> 
> This is most definitely *not* the fault of Blizzard.  If a card can
> run so hot as to destroy itself, that is either due to bad card
> design/poor cooling, or overclocking.
> 
> The people demanding that Blizzard replace their hardware are just
> whiners.

I'm not so sure.

Name one other piece of software that has this same problem.

...

Ok, so apparently Blizzard did something different that all those other 
software authors didn't do that caused this problem.  Otherwise, why 
hasn't this been a problem with other games?  Heck Starcraft2 isn't even 
one of those "system crushers" like Crysis was when it first relased, and 
we still didn't have reports of peoples video cards breaking down.

Oh I'm not saying the hardware and driver folks don't deserve a large 
part of the blame here.  Gracefully handling bad, possibly catastrophic 
input is their job, and they failed miserably.  At the same time, I find 
it hard not to include Blizzard here due to this not having occured before.

-- 
It's not broken.  It's...advanced.

Loren Pechtel <lorenpechtel@hotmail.invalid.com> wrote:

> I also have 20 years of programming for a living and I fully agree
> with you.  Had Blizzard noticed it during development they should have
> taken precautions but there is no expectation for them to notice
> something like this.  It's a hardware problem.

I mostly agree, but then I have some questions:
1: Why hasn't this happened with other software?  It's not as though 
this game was designed to push the limits of PC hardware, unlike other 
games in the past.  So obviously Blizzard has done something differently.

2: When it was discovered that Starforce was damaging CD drives, people 
weren't blaming the makers of the hardware - they were blaming Starforce 
(and the companies who protected their products with Starforce.)  How is 
this situation different?
 
Sure, the hardware should have failsafes in place to try and protect 
itself against overheating, and the drivers should have failsafes to deal 
with potentially dangerous and damaging input.  At any rate, put yourself 
in the shoes of the victims here.  All they did was start up Starcraft2 
and then their video card died.  Regardless of the actual cause, all they 
know is that starting Starcraft2 killed their video card.  Expecting 
customers to act as QA/testing/engineering is just ridiculous.

> If hardware can be destroyed by improper software then they have a
> major obligation to document that which you should not do.  These days
> the low-level controllers normally are designed to avoid carrying out
> dangerous commands and so only the people who write such stuff have to
> be concerned with destroying hardware.

Yeah, you'd think...  But apparently Blizzard managed to find a way around 
this anyways.

-- 
It's not broken.  It's...advanced.

Loren Pechtel <lorenpechtel@hotmail.invalid.com> wrote:
> I also have 20 years of programming for a living and I fully agree
> with you.  Had Blizzard noticed it during development they should have
> taken precautions but there is no expectation for them to notice
> something like this.  It's a hardware problem.

Doug Jacobs  <djacobs@rawbw.com> wrote:
>I mostly agree, but then I have some questions:
>1: Why hasn't this happened with other software?  It's not as though 
>this game was designed to push the limits of PC hardware, unlike other 
>games in the past.  So obviously Blizzard has done something differently.

It has happened with other software, especially benchmarks which try
to push video cards to their limits.  Starcraft 2 is just the biggest
PC game to come out since people started blaming heat related failures
on software.

>2: When it was discovered that Starforce was damaging CD drives, people 
>weren't blaming the makers of the hardware - they were blaming Starforce 
>(and the companies who protected their products with Starforce.)  How is 
>this situation different?
 
Starforce intentially tries to operate optical drives in a manner they're
not designed to handle, but I doubt it has actually damaged a single
CD drive.

>Sure, the hardware should have failsafes in place to try and protect 
>itself against overheating...

Actually PCs should be designed to never overheat if they're operated at
normal room temperatures and with unrestricted airflow. 

>All they did was start up Starcraft2 and then their video card died.
>Regardless of the actual cause, all they know is that starting Starcraft2
>killed their video card.  Expecting customers to act as
>QA/testing/engineering is just ridiculous.

Except that in most of these cases the fault is with the consumer who
either built or rebuilt their PC and didn't ensure that it had adequate
cooling.  Starcraft 2 doesn't, and cannot, kill a properly built PC.

					Ross Ridge

-- 
 l/  //	  Ross Ridge -- The Great HTMU
[oo][oo]  rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
-()-/()/  http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca/~rridge/ 
 db  //	  

On Thu, 12 Aug 2010 13:30:06 -0500, Doug Jacobs <djacobs@rawbw.com>
wrote:

>Loren Pechtel <lorenpechtel@hotmail.invalid.com> wrote:
>
>> I also have 20 years of programming for a living and I fully agree
>> with you.  Had Blizzard noticed it during development they should have
>> taken precautions but there is no expectation for them to notice
>> something like this.  It's a hardware problem.
>
>I mostly agree, but then I have some questions:
>1: Why hasn't this happened with other software?  It's not as though 
>this game was designed to push the limits of PC hardware, unlike other 
>games in the past.  So obviously Blizzard has done something differently.

Yeah.  They had a bug that at the menu screen pegged the GPU at
100%--it did push the limits.

>2: When it was discovered that Starforce was damaging CD drives, people 
>weren't blaming the makers of the hardware - they were blaming Starforce 
>(and the companies who protected their products with Starforce.)  How is 
>this situation different?

Because Starforce pushed the drives in a fashion that would not
normally occur.

>Sure, the hardware should have failsafes in place to try and protect 
>itself against overheating, and the drivers should have failsafes to deal 
>with potentially dangerous and damaging input.  At any rate, put yourself 
>in the shoes of the victims here.  All they did was start up Starcraft2 
>and then their video card died.  Regardless of the actual cause, all they 
>know is that starting Starcraft2 killed their video card.  Expecting 
>customers to act as QA/testing/engineering is just ridiculous.

They have a legitimate beef with the manufacturer of their card.

On Saturday, July 31, 2010 11:44:37 AM UTC-6, Rich wrote:
> So if you got the game and have been playing it, what do you think?
> 
> What do you like? What do you dislike? How does it compare to the old
> game.

I am thinking about making a RTS game.  Would you guys take a two question survey?
https://qtrial.qualtrics.com/SE/?SID=SV_3fqIEfWWnCyjol7
Thanks.

On 14.7.2012. 1:38, willard.hagen@gmail.com wrote:
>
> I am thinking about making a RTS game.  Would you guys take a two question survey?
> https://qtrial.qualtrics.com/SE/?SID=SV_3fqIEfWWnCyjol7
> Thanks.

+1 there, too. ;) You're welcome. :)