🚀 go-pugleaf

Zaghadka <zagh...@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:o8jdv25tsk6mo1...@4ax.com: 

> On Tue, 13 Mar 2007 01:52:05 GMT, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg,
> Warewolf wrote: 
>>Zaghadka <zagh...@hotmail.com> wrote in
>>news:0n0av2147qo50s...@4ax.com: 
>>
>>> On Sun, 11 Mar 2007 20:44:41 GMT, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg,
>>> Warewolf wrote: 
>>>>In fact, I've supported so many companies and game series through my
>>>>purchases (ah, the wonders of shopping around) that I'd say I can do
>>>>without the latest and greatest for a while.  If that makes me a
>>>>'pirate' in your eyes then I'd say you need yours checked.  I've got
>>>>better things to do with my time than waste it listening to another
>>>>round of lies from some facist pundit/mouthpiece.
>>>>
>>>>Signed,
>>>>Warewolf
>>>>who wonders when botched DVD sets and (emulated) game compilations
>>>>will be a thing of the past.
>>> 
>>> Meh. When people stop buying them, or if the prices triple. ;^)
>>
>>Well, if the reviews at Amazon are any indication, a lot of
>>dissatisfied customers are making their voices heard. (Not that the
>>original publishers are 'listening' to them, mind you) }X^�
>>
> They aren't. :^(
> 
> They listen to changes in their P&L reports, and then the smart ones
> think, "What's going wrong?" instead of blaming "pirates" for their
> own shortcomings. *After* the P&L report says something's up, *if*
> they take that second step of taking accountability, then *MAYBE* they
> check the Amazon reviews. ;^) 
> 
> The other ones quietly go out of business or, if sufficiently
> powerful, try to slip a rootkit on your machine.

Isn't that always the way.

*long Tacoman sigh*

>>> As for fascism, there's nothing fascist about what he said. Sure,
>>> it's a little naive to ask people to not get the best price the law
>>> will allow them, but he did *ask*, and he thinks it will help.
>>
>>As I understand it, fascists seek to impose their own view of order
>>upon the world/area at large.  'pc games' wants to ban software
>>registration via Steam or, in this case, what he considers piracy and
>>he's trying to do it by presenting a one-sided arguement.
>>
> Right. But the methods are important too. If he's "presenting an
> argument," no matter how "one-sided," it isn't fascist behavior.

If you say so. {:^)

And I will admit that I haven't noticed any of the messages countering his 
points disappearing unexpectedly (aside from the usual ISP cleanup).

> Fascists DON'T present arguments. They use nationalism, ideology, and
> fear to cause people to cede their personal power to them, and a big
> stick to those who don't buy the "dog-and-pony" show, when their power
> is sufficient. It's an almost "vampiric" process.
> 
> Though "pc games" has now demonstrated his more fascist tendencies by
> declaring this thread officially "over." THAT's what a fascist does,
> and a *true* fascist has the means to accomplish that end.
> 
> If you had called him a fascist (or more accurately a proto-fascist)
> after that stunt, I'd be in complete agreement with you. Your
> instincts certainly seem to be dead on, and you saw through the
> "dog-and-pony" show. 
> 
> Watch out for the big stick. ;^)

*shows his bigger schtick*

Humor can be a powerful 'weapon' in itself. (when properly applied, of 
course)

>>Maybe I'm taking his original post too seriously but it sounds like he
>>*wants* to industry to impose more restrictions on how we, the general
>>public, use the software we purchase/'license' and, unfortunately,
>>it's just that brand of 'US vs THEM' thinking that has lead to
>>measures such as Sony's rootkit being placed on music CDs and
>>accusations of 'Treacherous Computing' a couple of years ago.
>>
>>Perhaps these statements will be one-sided as well but here is what
>>*I'd* like to see:
>>
>>1) Publishers like Namco, Midway and Sega to stop pussyfooting around
>>the issue of arcade and console emulation.  Yes, their arcade games
>>have been backed up by some of their customers and, yes, thanks to
>>*LEGAL* emulators, computer users have been playing these classic
>>games outside of the arcade. 
>>
> While the emulator itself is legal, if you don't have the rights to
> the content, running the game technically *isn't*. But I hear you.

Also, who is going to physically enter your home and check to see if you 
have a legal working copy (or, at least, the 'inner workings') of Double 
Dragon or Final Fight?

AFAIK, it's a 'grey issue' but I'd like to think that preservation can 
still be an option.

>>Does this mean that these same players are no longer supporting the 
>>businesses that purchase/lease their coin-operated machines?  I'd
>>certainly like to see proof of that.
>>
> Of course it does. Who the heck is gonna *buy* a compilation of old
> arcade games in emulation if you can get it with MAME for free?

*holds up his hand*

If it's a way of saying 'Thanks for the memories' you'd better believe I'll 
buy it.

But it has to be done **RIGHT!!**

And, aside from Aspyr's GBA 'Activision Anthology', Atari's 80 in 1 
compilation for the PC and, if what I've read is true, Capcom's console-
based collections, good compilations are decidedly rare.

> In the early 90's, I bought a wonderful DOS port called Williams
> Arcade classics and played actual Robotron to my heart's content. It
> was well done. It is obvious that anyone with knowledge of MAME and
> the ability to get the Robotron ROMS, which are easy to find, would
> not purchase such a game today. 

Unless it was part of an 'Arcade Complete' collection? *shrug*

> It's only common sense that when you present a free lunch and a
> reasonably priced lunch, and they are of identical quality and
> availability, people are going to take the free lunch.
> 
> The only question is extent, and that one is hard to prove. You can
> easily prove unspecified damages logically, but you can't prove the
> specific damages easily.
> 
> [snip]
> 
>>Have the 
>>aforementioned corporations' official attempts to capitalize on this 
>>interest provided their customers with *more* satisfaction than the
>>illegal method(s) or less?
>>
>>No offence, but I don't consider:
>>
>>- poor ROM and control emulation
>>- missing music
>>- restrictive copy protection methods
>>- discarded features such as a seperate [Start] button or [Reset] key
>>
>>to be viable alternatives to MAME or Genecyst.  And when 'obselete' 
>>machines are being smashed or left to rot by their former owners, how
>>many copies of 'Demon World' or 'Outfoxies' do you think will be left
>>for legitimate players to enjoy? (There is still a market for machines
>>and JAMMA boards, AFAIK)
>>
> Yup, I don't think it's right to be told that we have to PAY for the
> turd sandwich because the free fillet mignon is "naughty." LOL.
> 
> Perhaps these idiots should've got on the line with Nicola Salmoria
> instead of producing their own homegrown POS software that *they*
> weren't willing to pay for. Then everyone makes money for their REAL
> efforts and we all go home happy. 
> 
>>2) Products that are no longer supported by their original authors, 
>>programming teams and/or publishers to be released as freeware. 
>>Publishers such as Apogee, Bethesda and Rockstar have done this.  Al
>>Lowe (creator of Leisure Suit Larry), Ian Bell and Todd Daggert have
>>done this and I applaud them.  So how about you, EA? Ubisoft? First
>>Star? Or do you think it will provide more 'competition' than PR?
>>
> Can't be done easily because of the way IP law is set up. You have to
> jealously defend your trademarks or you lose them. What we probably
> need is IP reform so you can put things into some form of public
> licensure without ceding *all* rights.
> 
>>If I'm not mistaken, if someone (particularly a pirate) wants a game
>>badly enough he/she will get it (or, in some cases, make it).  We have
>>a 'Multiple Use Game ENgine' for street-fighting games and 'Rocks and 
>>Diamonds' overshadowing your 'BoulderDash', First Star - do you
>>really think that your (non-emulated) classic will still sell? (even
>>with auction sites like EBay)
>>
> Yeah, but that doesn't mean rights owners should just give up and cede
> all their rights and privileges under current intellectual property
> law. pc games is out asking folks to sacrifice and pay top dollar to
> companies to save a bad system, and you say developers and IP holdings
> companies should do the same? That's not reasonable either.

That's actually one of the reasons I mentioned Rockstar - although you have 
to register to get one of their free games (or in the case of an 
independent title called Charlie the Duck, register to unlock the full 
game) it's a small 'price' to pay for some enjoyment.  It allows them to 
keep track of who's downloading those titles (for the most part) and can 
give them a better idea of the market(s) to aim for in their next project.

Then again, perhaps we come up with a compromise.  The only 'solution' I 
can think of, again, involves compilations of the various C64,

> What's reasonable to me, and most people I think, is they make
> something *worth buying* and I pay for it.
> 
> Otherwise, that's *money* you're asking them to fork over on the
> argument that "crime is inevitable." May as well say, "thieves are
> inevitable so why lock your front door?" Or "weather is inevitable so
> why not just get used to getting rained on?"
> 
> The law gives them an umbrella, and I think they have the right to use
> it as they see fit, but *only* for the purpose for which the law, and
> the greater public good represented by that law, intends it.
> 
> No poking folks in the eye with the umbrella, in other words. ;^)
> 
> [snip]
>>
>>(Okay, I'm losing track here but I think you get the idea) {:^)
>>
> I too have a "rambling" problem, but I'm enjoying your thoughts. ;^)

So where's my penny?

*ducks*

>>3) Better games (for lack of a better term).  Better gameplay and
>>fewer bugs for the price we pay for. (I'll leave the other regulars to
>>fill in the blanks)
>>
>>Every time I visit a software shop these days, I have to cry a little 
>>inside when I see copies of Quake 4 and Prey peeking through the
>>bargain bin while titles like 'Big Rigs' and 'FBI Hostage Rescue'
>>fester on the shelves.  It leads me to wonder how many other retailers
>>and customers have been cheated by shoddy programming teams and
>>software publishers. 
>>
> But *who* determines what's "better?" What's the mechanism that should
> be used to determine that, and why has the old one, if I take your
> meaning, failed? 
> 
> The system used to work, what caused it to stop working? Did it ever
> work? 
> 
> [snip]
> 
>>Replaying some of the classics, as suggested above, would rekindle
>>some of the flames for the 'incense' the public craves...but I'll
>>leave it to the rest of you to post the best 'recipe(s)'.
>>
> I don't think those old formulas work any more. I don't even think the
> production priorities are even in the same place. Why were all the
> first video games "space" games? Because most of the screen had to be
> BLACK. 
> 
> When colorful backgrounds became the norm, we suddenly had Mario
> walking in a sunny world, and most games took place on EARTH. More
> colors brought the ability to do more than sleek white ships on a dark
> background. 
> 
> Now we've got all this eye candy and physics, but no one really knows
> what to do with it, because those games were not made in the past
> because the eye candy and physics weren't available. 
> 
> I like what Nintendo's doing with all the motion control and the Wii.
> I think we've reached a dead end with the FPS. PC's, I believe, are
> going to be used more as a coordinating hub for the actvities, rather
> than the platform for them in the future.
> 
> Any other ideas are MINE and I intend to *sell* them. ;^)
> 
>>> A fascist would simply have informed the local secret police to come
>>> to your house, *make* you buy an entire library of games after
>>> [falsely accusing you of stealing them], and then make you join them
>>> [in] informing on your friends as a condition of your "freedom." You
>>> would no longer be free. 
>>
>>Sorry to post a correction of your statement but I don't think that 
>>ownership of 232 PC games, 20 GBA cartirdges and 17 DVDs would be a
>>charge I have to confess to under *ANYONE'S* definition of local or
>>international law. }:^)
>>
> LOL. And proud you are of your wealth. That's not my point. They'd
> make you say you stole it *anyway*, because in a fascist world, the
> fascists are the law, not local or international.
> 
> So they'd just march in, find a reason why all that stuff you're proud
> of is bootleg (maybe with a new law and all your licenses are now
> "expired"), make you confess, and then make you point them to 10 more
> houses, the closer the better. You would be watched. You would have no
> recourse like "the law." 
> 
> Your only recourse would be THEM. That's fascism.
> 
>>(And I would be happy to list them, believe me)
>>
> I wasn't accusing you of any impropriety, just that you misunderstand
> what fascism is because you grew up in a fat and happy world that
> dreams of such luxuries as "international law."
> 
> Globally, the majority don't have the luxury of a flush toilet.
> 
>>> Don't throw that word around lightly, lest we find that we no longer
>>> have a word for *actual* fascists.
>>
>>I'll take off the boxing gloves when posters like 'pc games' stop
>>throwing punches.  We're free to post our opinions in whatever manner
>>we like (and, of course, ignore the posts of others) but, if
>>statements like the ones 'pc games' posted lead to further oppression,
>>it can lead one to wonder who's steering the ship(s).
>>
> Yes. You are "free" to misuse the word fascist as you see fit.
> 
> But, in my opinion, it's still misuse.
> 
> I'm sure whatever "punch" pc games "threw" stung like a dab of mild
> picante. 
> 
> Get it? You are telling me you are being assaulted, and using
> hyperbolic language to describe it (punches, fascists), when you
> aren't being assaulted at all.
> 
> You're free to *ignore* him, in fact.
> 
> Fascism is serious business, and when we throw that word around when
> what we really mean is "rude" or "offensive" (or even just "pushy") we
> leave no accurate word left for when the REAL fascists come knocking.
> 
> --
> Zag
> 
> I thought I could organize freedom, how very
> Scandinavian of me. ...Bj�rk
>