🚀 go-pugleaf

On Sep 17, 6:06 pm, sillyputty <sheg...@uymail.com> wrote:
> New ruling could eventually lead to blocking of used game saleshttp://tinyurl.com/22ml2fu
>
> Thanks to a new judgement made by the United States Court of Appeals,
> used game and software sales may be a thing of the past.
>
> The decision (linked below) rules that "a software user is a licensee
> rather than an owner."
>
> Originally, the suit was brought forward by Autodesk, the makers of
> the expensive AutoCAD software, who were angry a consumer purchased
> many copies of the software and then resold them on auction site eBay.
>
> Autodesk wanted to know who, legally, had the rights to the software.
>
> This new ruling does not implicitly imply video games, but games are
> considered software, so the ruling could affect the used game market,
> as well.
>
> It will be interesting to see how the major publishers run with this
> ruling, and we will certainly keep you updated.
> --
> Failure is not an option; it's bundled with your software.

9th Circuit = Hollywood's home court. Don't be surprised about IP
favoritism coming from this group.

The ruling will have an uphill battle in appeals. IIRC a similar suit
(also brought by Autodesk) was previously ruled on by the Supreme
Court, which enforced first-sale doctrine. There's a ton of legal
precedent, all of which the 9th Circuit simply chose to dismiss in
favor of rationale used in less relevant cases, and that is unlikely
to hold up under scrutiny. It's obvious from the court's findings that
they decided on this case before it began, and twisted each of the
arguments to fit a foregone conclusion.

Besides that, there's also plenty of money on the other side --
GameStop obviously, and all the other retailers fed up with tiny
margins on new game sales, who are just beginning their used game
operations. They're not just going to sit around and let the
government and Autodesk void their profits.

Either way, the media industry isn't getting away with this. The
people they are fighting are simply too smart for them. I wonder if
the release of the HDCP crack was a deliberate response to this.
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2369280,00.asp

...once again proving that DRM ensures that only the pirates win.

And when an industry succeeds in making heroes out of pirates, their
ship has sailed.

On Fri, 17 Sep 2010 20:06:36 -0700 (PDT), yaugin <yau...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Besides that, there's also plenty of money on the other side --
>GameStop obviously, and all the other retailers fed up with tiny
>margins on new game sales, who are just beginning their used game
>operations. They're not just going to sit around and let the
>government and Autodesk void their profits.

[snip]

Nice reply, and the part above is what immediately came to mind when I
read this. Gamestops entire business model is based on selling a game
for $60, buying it back for 20 then selling it again for $40.
Console games are overpriced and the used market is lucrative. Even
major retailers like Best Buy, Wal Mart and Toys R Us are trying it.

I have a feeling this lawsuit is going nowhere, but if it does, its
going to be fought hard right to the end.

The other issue is that the consumer is going to have to consent to
this. Has an "I agree" click box agreement ever been tested and stood
up in court? My issue with this type of consent with software is that
you had to open it and start the install. If you didn't agree with the
license terms, well, too bad because the package was already opened,
in which case most retailers will only swap it for the same title, not
give a refund.

I'm expecting digital downloads to be the trend rather than this. They
pretty much gut the resale aspect, and the thing really holding them
back is that limited size of console hard drives. I'd expect next gen
console systems (I know there really aren't any officially in the
pipe) to have huge hard drives. They've gone from being a data
buffer/save game tool in consoles to a true storage medium just like
in a PC. 

On Sep 18, 5:30 am, Tim O <timo56...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I'm expecting digital downloads to be the trend rather than this. They
> pretty much gut the resale aspect, and the thing really holding them
> back is that limited size of console hard drives. I'd expect next gen
> console systems (I know there really aren't any officially in the
> pipe) to have huge hard drives. They've gone from being a data
> buffer/save game tool in consoles to a true storage medium just like
> in a PC.

This idea just makes me go why not just make everything for PC and
screw the whole console idea.

On 9/18/2010 7:14 AM, Insane Ranter wrote:
> On Sep 18, 5:30 am, Tim O<timo56...@hotmail.com>  wrote:
>> I'm expecting digital downloads to be the trend rather than this. They
>> pretty much gut the resale aspect, and the thing really holding them
>> back is that limited size of console hard drives. I'd expect next gen
>> console systems (I know there really aren't any officially in the
>> pipe) to have huge hard drives. They've gone from being a data
>> buffer/save game tool in consoles to a true storage medium just like
>> in a PC.
>
> This idea just makes me go why not just make everything for PC and
> screw the whole console idea.

Agreed.  From what I understand consoles are basically just PCs with 
"simplified for idiots" user interfaces.  Streaming video, web surfing, 
email, etc. are all touted features/abilities for consoles now.  The 
only significant difference seems to be that you use your TV as a 
monitor instead of a higher resolution monitor.

-- 
"There's something that doesn't make sense.  Let's go and poke it with a 
stick."

Insane Ranter <log...@gmail.com> wrote in news:6d7024ff-bb7b-4f3b-b9f8-
c3dda1...@u13g2000vbo.googlegroups.com:

> This idea just makes me [wonder] why [they don't] just make everything
> for PC and screw the whole console idea.

Because there's something to be said for gaming (and doing other things) on 
the go.

(Staying the torrents of 'Are we there yet?', for example) ~_^

Signed,
Warewolf
who wonders if the next portable console will have a keyboard attachment.

(Nethack FTW)

On Sat, 18 Sep 2010 07:14:22 -0700 (PDT), Insane Ranter
<log...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sep 18, 5:30 am, Tim O <timo56...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> I'm expecting digital downloads to be the trend rather than this. They
>> pretty much gut the resale aspect, and the thing really holding them
>> back is that limited size of console hard drives. I'd expect next gen
>> console systems (I know there really aren't any officially in the
>> pipe) to have huge hard drives. They've gone from being a data
>> buffer/save game tool in consoles to a true storage medium just like
>> in a PC.
>
>This idea just makes me go why not just make everything for PC and
>screw the whole console idea.

I'm always on a quest to try to understand the appeal of consoles and
why some would choose them over PC games.  The best conclusion I've
come to is that so many people view a console as a very simple
entertainment appliance: you buy the box then buy some games... then
done.

With PCs there is a false perception that everything is more
complicated.  Maybe there is some small amount of truth there, in the
sense that in order to get the most out of PC gaming, you need to know
a little more about hardware, video card options, etc and be willing
to upgrade some things once in a while.  There are lots of consumers
that just seem overwhelmed by that.

I usually work on teams with very technical people.  I would say the
majority of those do most of their gaming on consoles.  That would
seem to contradict the "PCs are difficult or scary to deal with"
theory.  I sometimes ask around, why an Xbox or PS3 instead of PC?
I've gotten various answers, some have told me that they don't like
the hardware upgrade cycle, some say they just enjoy laying back on
the couch doing everything with the wireless controller, and the
benefit of their big TV.  A few guys I know got PS3s simply as a way
to play the latest games, because they perceived a cost advantage over
upgrading their aging PC which was otherwise still very usable for
everything they did (except play cutting edge games). One fellow told
me a story about how his memories of PC gaming involved
troubleshooting IRQ conflicts on sound cards and such, and that he's
just glad to be done with all that (it didn't matter that nobody has
dealt with IRQ conflicts in a long time, that was the impression left
in his mind).  The point is that sometimes even very technical people
sometimes have an impression that PC games are a pain in the ass.  So,
in their mind they can just buy whatever the latest console is and be
done with it.  A shame, since PC gaming has come a long way.

Getting back to the subject of used game sales, I do agree that it is
highly likely the next iteration of consoles is going to offer (if not
mandate) a download-distribution model along the lines of Steam.  If
not that, they will go to something like these services where the
games all execute in the cloud, and your console is really just a dumb
terminal that lets you remotely play the game.

On 9/18/2010 12:52 PM, Rin Stowleigh wrote:
> On Sat, 18 Sep 2010 07:14:22 -0700 (PDT), Insane Ranter
> <log...@gmail.com>  wrote:
>
>> On Sep 18, 5:30 am, Tim O<timo56...@hotmail.com>  wrote:
>>> I'm expecting digital downloads to be the trend rather than this. They
>>> pretty much gut the resale aspect, and the thing really holding them
>>> back is that limited size of console hard drives. I'd expect next gen
>>> console systems (I know there really aren't any officially in the
>>> pipe) to have huge hard drives. They've gone from being a data
>>> buffer/save game tool in consoles to a true storage medium just like
>>> in a PC.
>>
>> This idea just makes me go why not just make everything for PC and
>> screw the whole console idea.
>
> I'm always on a quest to try to understand the appeal of consoles and
> why some would choose them over PC games.  The best conclusion I've
> come to is that so many people view a console as a very simple
> entertainment appliance: you buy the box then buy some games... then
> done.
>
> With PCs there is a false perception that everything is more
> complicated.  Maybe there is some small amount of truth there, in the
> sense that in order to get the most out of PC gaming, you need to know
> a little more about hardware, video card options, etc and be willing
> to upgrade some things once in a while.  There are lots of consumers
> that just seem overwhelmed by that.
>
> I usually work on teams with very technical people.  I would say the
> majority of those do most of their gaming on consoles.  That would
> seem to contradict the "PCs are difficult or scary to deal with"
> theory.  I sometimes ask around, why an Xbox or PS3 instead of PC?
> I've gotten various answers, some have told me that they don't like
> the hardware upgrade cycle, some say they just enjoy laying back on
> the couch doing everything with the wireless controller, and the
> benefit of their big TV.  A few guys I know got PS3s simply as a way
> to play the latest games, because they perceived a cost advantage over
> upgrading their aging PC which was otherwise still very usable for
> everything they did (except play cutting edge games). One fellow told
> me a story about how his memories of PC gaming involved
> troubleshooting IRQ conflicts on sound cards and such, and that he's
> just glad to be done with all that (it didn't matter that nobody has
> dealt with IRQ conflicts in a long time, that was the impression left
> in his mind).  The point is that sometimes even very technical people
> sometimes have an impression that PC games are a pain in the ass.  So,
> in their mind they can just buy whatever the latest console is and be
> done with it.  A shame, since PC gaming has come a long way.
>
> Getting back to the subject of used game sales, I do agree that it is
> highly likely the next iteration of consoles is going to offer (if not
> mandate) a download-distribution model along the lines of Steam.  If
> not that, they will go to something like these services where the
> games all execute in the cloud, and your console is really just a dumb
> terminal that lets you remotely play the game.
>
Regarding the "PC Hardware Upgrade Cycle": Don't they have to deal with 
the same thing buying new game consoles so they can play the newest games?

-- 
"There's something that doesn't make sense.  Let's go and poke it with a 
stick."

On Sat, 18 Sep 2010 14:40:21 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
<dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:

>On 9/18/2010 12:52 PM, Rin Stowleigh wrote:
>> On Sat, 18 Sep 2010 07:14:22 -0700 (PDT), Insane Ranter
>> <log...@gmail.com>  wrote:
>>
>>> On Sep 18, 5:30 am, Tim O<timo56...@hotmail.com>  wrote:
>>>> I'm expecting digital downloads to be the trend rather than this. They
>>>> pretty much gut the resale aspect, and the thing really holding them
>>>> back is that limited size of console hard drives. I'd expect next gen
>>>> console systems (I know there really aren't any officially in the
>>>> pipe) to have huge hard drives. They've gone from being a data
>>>> buffer/save game tool in consoles to a true storage medium just like
>>>> in a PC.
>>>
>>> This idea just makes me go why not just make everything for PC and
>>> screw the whole console idea.
>>
>> I'm always on a quest to try to understand the appeal of consoles and
>> why some would choose them over PC games.  The best conclusion I've
>> come to is that so many people view a console as a very simple
>> entertainment appliance: you buy the box then buy some games... then
>> done.
>>
>> With PCs there is a false perception that everything is more
>> complicated.  Maybe there is some small amount of truth there, in the
>> sense that in order to get the most out of PC gaming, you need to know
>> a little more about hardware, video card options, etc and be willing
>> to upgrade some things once in a while.  There are lots of consumers
>> that just seem overwhelmed by that.
>>
>> I usually work on teams with very technical people.  I would say the
>> majority of those do most of their gaming on consoles.  That would
>> seem to contradict the "PCs are difficult or scary to deal with"
>> theory.  I sometimes ask around, why an Xbox or PS3 instead of PC?
>> I've gotten various answers, some have told me that they don't like
>> the hardware upgrade cycle, some say they just enjoy laying back on
>> the couch doing everything with the wireless controller, and the
>> benefit of their big TV.  A few guys I know got PS3s simply as a way
>> to play the latest games, because they perceived a cost advantage over
>> upgrading their aging PC which was otherwise still very usable for
>> everything they did (except play cutting edge games). One fellow told
>> me a story about how his memories of PC gaming involved
>> troubleshooting IRQ conflicts on sound cards and such, and that he's
>> just glad to be done with all that (it didn't matter that nobody has
>> dealt with IRQ conflicts in a long time, that was the impression left
>> in his mind).  The point is that sometimes even very technical people
>> sometimes have an impression that PC games are a pain in the ass.  So,
>> in their mind they can just buy whatever the latest console is and be
>> done with it.  A shame, since PC gaming has come a long way.
>>
>> Getting back to the subject of used game sales, I do agree that it is
>> highly likely the next iteration of consoles is going to offer (if not
>> mandate) a download-distribution model along the lines of Steam.  If
>> not that, they will go to something like these services where the
>> games all execute in the cloud, and your console is really just a dumb
>> terminal that lets you remotely play the game.
>>
>Regarding the "PC Hardware Upgrade Cycle": Don't they have to deal with 
>the same thing buying new game consoles so they can play the newest games?

I guess so but on a much smaller scale, meaning less often, at less
cost, and more importantly less mental energy expenditure on their
part.  For example with consoles:

1.  Upgrades are less frequent, for example current Xbox has been out
for 5 years and is expected to not have a replacement from MS until
2014 at earliest (9 years would be phenomenally long cycle in PC
hardware, much has changed/gotted swapped out or replaced during that
time).
2.  The cost of upgrade is (perceptibly) only a few hundred dollars.
Real cost is a lot more once all the accessories and what not are
added to keep the consumer happy, but a $300 game box sounds appealing
on the surface.  PC gamers on the other hand typically consider $300 a
reasonable expense for just a video card.
3.  Upgrading from one generation console to a next generation console
is a no-brainer.  If the Xbox 360 is replaced with the XBox 720 or the
PS3 becomes the PS4, the consumer does not have to "think" about what
they need to move to the next level.  The thing is sure to come out
around Christmas, receive so much media attention that it will alread
be drilled in their head what to buy, and because it's all a self
contained box they do not even need to to think about things like we
do, such as ATI vs nVidia.. oops wait, now ATI doesn't exist and is
the same as AMD..  See what I mean?  It's just a "consumer simplicity"
issue.

On Sun, 19 Sep 2010 13:37:23 +1200, William Brown <wbr...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>On Fri, 17 Sep 2010 18:06:15 -0700 (PDT), sillyputty
><sheg...@uymail.com> wrote:
>
>>New ruling could eventually lead to blocking of used game sales
>>http://tinyurl.com/22ml2fu
>
>
>
>Just think for a moment.,  don't you have fire sales when firms go bust
>and even Flood sales, people buy the stuff and sell it ware ever they
>can.
>
>Sorry USA you are sick in the head.

Yes and we crave to learn from all the amazing contributions to
computer science the Danish have blessed us with.  LOL!

On Sep 18, 5:30 am, Tim O <timo56...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Sep 2010 20:06:36 -0700 (PDT), yaugin <yau...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Besides that, there's also plenty of money on the other side --
> >GameStop obviously, and all the other retailers fed up with tiny
> >margins on new game sales, who are just beginning their used game
> >operations. They're not just going to sit around and let the
> >government and Autodesk void their profits.
>
> [snip]
>
> Nice reply, and the part above is what immediately came to mind when I
> read this. Gamestops entire business model is based on selling a game
> for $60, buying it back for 20 then selling it again for $40.
> Console games are overpriced and the used market is lucrative. Even
> major retailers like Best Buy, Wal Mart and Toys R Us are trying it.
>

I agree and I don't like it.  I'm not against inviduals selling to
other inviduals, but I don't like businesses making a shit ton of
money doing it.  At least when some one pirates a game they can use
the "The developers have lost no money from me because if I could not
have got that game for free I would not have bought it" "defense".

Developers can't look at how many Mafia 2 seeds are on torrent sites
and then work out how many lost sales there are, whereas if they look
at how many second hand games Gamestop et alia have sold then they
CAN.  I know the second hand games are at a different point, but
that's a different argument entirely.

Rin Stowleigh <rstow...@gmail.com> writes:

> The point is that sometimes even very technical people
> sometimes have an impression that PC games are a pain in the ass.

I wonder if that's sustained by their PC experience at work? Big
companies especially like to load up (and bog down) PCs with what
amounts to malware, enforce updates at inconvenient times and also
other rules and policies to stop people from doing their work, let
alone actually get an enjoyable experience out of the computer...

On 01/10/2010 4:59 AM, Anssi Saari wrote:
> I wonder if that's sustained by their PC experience at work? Big
> companies especially like to load up (and bog down) PCs with what
> amounts to malware, enforce updates at inconvenient times and also
> other rules and policies to stop people from doing their work, let
> alone actually get an enjoyable experience out of the computer...

Every company needs a passive-aggressive configuration manager whose 
primary job is to say "you don't want to make that upgrade just yet."