🚀 go-pugleaf

On Mon, 9 Nov 2015 11:03:53 +0100, Werner Punz <we...@gmx.at> wrote:

>Ok I just got my Steam link and Steam controller this morning.
>First of all I just ran a quick test if everything works, but so far.
>The Steam link does what it does, however, I am a little bit puzzled why 
>they added a non shielded network cable to the box. This one goes 
>straight to the garbage bin (the cable, not the link).
>Besides that it simply works and the picture quality is exactly what you 
>can expect from InHome streaming (I am on a lan connection).
>
>Now to the controller. Now that thing feels weird, it definitely needs 
>some time to get used to. Especially the abxy button placement which is 
>lower than on most other controllers. For a first test on Giana Sisters 
>Twisted Dreams and Brothers a tale of two sons, it worked.
>Giana Sisters definitely needed some time to get adjusted to due to the 
>lower abxy buttons, and if you want to play it with the left touchpad 
>then you have to adjust the settings, the default touchpad settings are 
>suboptimal for jump and runs (I was playing with the left stick for a 
>first test and gave up the left touchpad instantly after a short try, 
>did not have time to dig into the settings)
>
>
>Also for Brothers I probably have to fiddle around with the right 
>mousepads sensitivity a little bit. It seems to be set a little bit to 
>low for my taste (the game is one of the few which uses both joysticks 
>as integral part of the gameplay to control two characters separately at 
>the same time)
>
>It will be interesting to see how the controller will scale on non 
>controller based genres, like point and click adventure games and on the 
>controller based ones with some adjusted settings.
>
>
>
>Werner

Thanks... I'm curious about this and interested to read how you like
it.

 I can use a 360 controller comfortably, but a PS3 controller with
both analog sticks down low feels too small for my hands. My concern
is that the Steam controller has placed the analog stick and buttons
back down low like the PS3. Might be OK because the configuration is
much different, but not sure.
 

On Mon, 9 Nov 2015 11:03:53 +0100, Werner Punz <we...@gmx.at> wrote:

>Also for Brothers I probably have to fiddle around with the right 
>mousepads sensitivity a little bit. It seems to be set a little bit to 
>low for my taste (the game is one of the few which uses both joysticks 
>as integral part of the gameplay to control two characters separately at 
>the same time)
>
>It will be interesting to see how the controller will scale on non 
>controller based genres, like point and click adventure games and on the 
>controller based ones with some adjusted settings.

This was always the issue I had with any sort of gamepad or controller
on the PC before the advent of the 360 controller for Windows.  

The controller itself did what it was supposed to do, and the games
did what they were supposed to do, and the OS did what it was supposed
to do -- but they were never all three on the same page.  Sometimes it
was plug-and-go and the game worked great.  Other times things needed
to be remapped or calibrated, sensitivity or dead-zones adjusted, etc.
As long as I was willing to do this on a per-game basis, all went fine
enough after some time investment, but no matter what there was no way
to know if I was even playing the game as it was meant to be played or
if I had put myself at an unfair advantage (or in most cases
disadvantage) by modifying the control input to something other than
the way the game was written to be played.

360 controller for Windows changed all that, such that the games could
just assume the same button and stick type and placement and other
default settings that any 360 or valid clone would have, and most
importantly, it was tested in that configuration.

I get the feeling the Steam controller is a return to days of old --
lots of getting used to and tweaking, and a departure from plug and
play controller usage.

Not that this will be bad for everyone, I know some folks enjoy
spending time on the tweaking aspect as much or more than playing. But
for me, the more I learn about Steams attempt to make PC gaming more
like console gaming, the more I seem to come to the conclusion it
won't be for me.

But I hope that doesn't discourage your foray into the territory, I
enjoy reading your reports on the subject.

Am 09.11.15 um 22:47 schrieb Rin Stowleigh:
> On Mon, 9 Nov 2015 11:03:53 +0100, Werner Punz <we...@gmx.at> wrote:
>
>> Also for Brothers I probably have to fiddle around with the right
>> mousepads sensitivity a little bit. It seems to be set a little bit to
>> low for my taste (the game is one of the few which uses both joysticks
>> as integral part of the gameplay to control two characters separately at
>> the same time)
>>
>> It will be interesting to see how the controller will scale on non
>> controller based genres, like point and click adventure games and on the
>> controller based ones with some adjusted settings.
>
> This was always the issue I had with any sort of gamepad or controller
> on the PC before the advent of the 360 controller for Windows.
>
> The controller itself did what it was supposed to do, and the games
> did what they were supposed to do, and the OS did what it was supposed
> to do -- but they were never all three on the same page.  Sometimes it
> was plug-and-go and the game worked great.  Other times things needed
> to be remapped or calibrated, sensitivity or dead-zones adjusted, etc.

Well thats exactly the same with the Steam controller. Well not quite. I 
gave it an extensive three hour testrun yesterday. And for what it has 
to do I am now very happy with it. My main goal is to open my couch for 
non controller games. And at least for the games I played it worked 
fine. The only exception was Trine 2 where I really had to unlearn old 
habits regarding the right joystick and had to relearn how to use it.


Anyway here it goes.

Controller based games (mostly third person). You can play them 
basically out of the box as you are used to. Only downside is you have 
to learn to cope with a joystick emulation on the right touchpad. I did 
not have a problem with it, I am used to such things on the ipad.
Either way by altering the sensitivity and dead zones, you can improve 
the experience. Dead zones basically are pointless with this controller 
due to non existent drift.

The controller however really starts to shine on those games if you are 
able to map the right joystick to trackball (did not really care about a 
pure mouse input) mode. This is way better than pure joystick and way 
better than what you would get on a normal gamepad. The camera control 
is very precise while still giving you the ability to make fast 
movements. Will you get a better control than with a mouse, definitely 
no, will it be better than the average gamepad. Definitely yes.

The games I tried where this combo for gamepad and trackball mode worked 
seamlessly were Dishonored and the Witcher 3, only downside is that the 
ingame help switches instantly to keyboard if you start the trackball - 
pad and switches back to gamepad help once you press one of the gamepad 
buttons or use the left stick. Again if you use the right pad in gamepad 
stick mode this problem is gone.


Point and click adventures. Again I used a trackball mode which works 
better for the touchpad than a pure mouse mode. The games were perfectly 
playable but it needs getting used to, mouse is better, but for couch 
gaming, it is fine, played about 1 hour of those.

Text input. Now here is where I really have a problem. While highly 
praised I personally feel it is cluncky, fortunately you dont need that 
functionality often, unless you play "Her Story", like I did. Text input 
always was a pain on controllers and still is, period.

Third person control with mouse-joystick mode. Here the system tries to 
emulate a mouse/trackball while providing joystick input to the game. 
This is a hit and miss. Mostly a miss, sometimes a hit. I prefer 
traditional joystick input over that mode almost always.

Controls if you map keyboard and mouse to the gamepad. I only could get 
a small taste of it with my experiments on the right mousepad. But this 
is definitely a step up to traditional controllers.
According to reports on the net the combination of Trackball/Mouse for 
coarse grained movement and Gyroscope for fine grained aiming, seems to 
beat traditional controllers in a big way. Is it as good as a keyboard 
and mouse, no. But way better than stick based controllers.
But take this last paragraph with a grain of salt, I have yet to try 
gyro aim.

Regarding the time it needs to setup the game controls. It took me on 
the average 3-5 minutes onces I got the hang of the most important 
settings. Sometimes I used simply one of the predefined settings (which 
still lack a rating system), sometimes I did it myself.

Most of the times I just tweaked the trackball mode or joystick mode 
sensitivity a little bit and reduced the dead zones to zero (they are 
not needed due to non existent drift)

The only thing I still really have a small problem with is the placement 
and the size of the abxy buttons. The are to low for my taste and a tad 
to small. But I am getting slowly used to them.

Am 10.11.15 um 09:31 schrieb Werner Punz:

> The only thing I still really have a small problem with is the placement
> and the size of the abxy buttons. The are to low for my taste and a tad
> to small. But I am getting slowly used to them.
>
>
Ah another thing. Forget about serious racing games,
the shoulder triggers analog zones are way to small for fine grained 
adjustment of speed.
Although I can see the merits of using the gyroscope for controlling the 
car.

In comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.adventure, Werner Punz <we...@gmx.at> wrote:
> 
> Well thats exactly the same with the Steam controller. Well not quite. I 
> gave it an extensive three hour testrun yesterday. And for what it has 
> to do I am now very happy with it. My main goal is to open my couch for 
> non controller games. And at least for the games I played it worked 
> fine. The only exception was Trine 2 where I really had to unlearn old 
> habits regarding the right joystick and had to relearn how to use it.

Thanks for posting this. I am planning to buy a steam-os box this
winter so the preview is helpful.

> Text input. Now here is where I really have a problem. While highly 
> praised I personally feel it is cluncky, fortunately you dont need that 
> functionality often, unless you play "Her Story", like I did. Text input 
> always was a pain on controllers and still is, period.

Naturally I am a fan of text games (and Her Story is great) but
they're not what I'm getting this box to play. I think. If I'm wrong,
I'll haul out a bluetooth keyboard, no sweat.

--Z

-- 
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
*

Am 10.11.15 um 19:08 schrieb Andrew Plotkin:

>> Text input. Now here is where I really have a problem. While highly
>> praised I personally feel it is cluncky, fortunately you dont need that
>> functionality often, unless you play "Her Story", like I did. Text input
>> always was a pain on controllers and still is, period.
>
> Naturally I am a fan of text games (and Her Story is great) but
> they're not what I'm getting this box to play. I think. If I'm wrong,
> I'll haul out a bluetooth keyboard, no sweat.
>
Yes if you play interactive fiction, or any textbased game there is,
then a keyboard is a must.

The text input with the controller is really painful, feels like 
Brothers a Tale of Two Sons for text input.

Point and click adventures are playable, but still not as well playable
as with a mouse, but they are not painful to play, it feels somewhere 
between a real mouse and playing such a game on a notebook trackpad, but 
more on the mouse side. The best comparison is probably to play such a 
game with a thumb trackball, if you are on trackball mode (which I prefer).

The good thing is, you can map pretty much every keyboard shortcut there 
is to the controller (if the game has some)

Ok just to write about the Steam Link also.
The Steam link basically is a small box which does one thing it is a 
client to the Steam Inhome streaming and it does what it does, however 
with several problems.

First of all its stability is good however Steam Inhome Streamings 
stability I would rate it as beta. The problem simply is the way it 
encodes the streams.

You have two options
a) Software encoding which is stable but prepare to add lag and a drop 
of 10fps minimum to your game.

b) Hardware encoding and here I can only speak for the NVidia side. 
Hardware encoding uses whatever method it finds which is from the 
NVidia/Intel side

Quicksync if it cannot turn on the graphics card encoding
NvIFR as default method of graphics card encoding
and NvFBC as fallback if that one is turned on.

And thats where the problems start:
Quicksync probably is the slowest of the hardware encoding methods but 
still faster than software only. Not sure how to turn that on if an 
NVidia card is present. I really have to check that out.

However if you turn on hardware encoding, you most likely have NvIFR as 
default (you cannot choose the method from Steam although theoretically 
it is possible that you can switch encodings, I found some batch scripts 
in the Steam forums)

And NvIFR is unstable as hell, some games work some don´t it is a hit 
and miss situation. If it works then it works well, and you get a 
minimal fps hit with decent results (also depending on your graphics 
card, I have an NVidia 970). But sometimes a game plays well for 10 
minutes then Steam crashes. So my recommendation stay the hell away from 
NvIFR.

Now NvFBC which is also used by Shadow Play. You only get that encoding 
method if you either turn on Shadow play or load a script from one of 
the steam discussion forums which basically executes some nvidia command 
line tools.
However in my case the situation with NvFBC once I resolved the problems 
with it were good.
First my desktop crashed once I turned it on. It turned out to be a 
driver bug. I had set my local desktop display to 4k resolution. 
Apparently the NVidia driver has problems with that in conjunction with 
Shadow Play. Once I have found that out and lowered my desktop 
resolution things started to work pretty well. I literally could throw 
every game against the steam link and it worked, and it worked really 
well, in my case as good if not better than NvIFR but with less problems.

As for AMD cards, I cannot say anything to the hardware encoding 
situation there. What really puzzles me is that Steam neither allows a 
per game config, nor does it allow to choose the hardware encoding type 
in their software. According to a dev post in the Steam forums, they 
think that the method choosing should be as automatic as possible, and 
the end user should not be pestered with it. But they are working on the 
problems. In my opinion this is braindead, given the literally dozends 
of config option the steam controller has, 2-3 config options on the 
encoding side would not have hurt (given all the support forum postings 
regarding this issue)

This brings me back to the Steam link. Given the multiple reports on the 
net, apparently you need a Cable based Ethernet connection, although its 
port is only 100MBit/sec, if you cannot do that and you are on Wifi only 
then forget it. If you have powerline, good luck, Powerline is generally 
a hit and miss thingy. The best bet probably would be, if you are in 
Europe and cannot get Ethernet Cables to your TV. Ethernet over Coax, 
which is powerline based and gives abouzt 200mbit raw speed half duplex. 
I have had such a setup until recently, but could not test the Steam 
Link with it anymore. The NVidia shield had problems with it, but a 
notebook with Steam Inhome Streaming worked flawlessly.

Also regarding the controller, I really can only recommend the Steam 
controller with this thing. first of all because it works seamlessly and 
you open a ton of games for couch gaming which otherwise do not work. 
Apparently the Xbox 360 controller and PS4 controllers also are supposed 
to work (with some problems regarding the wireless xbox 360 controller 
which are ironed out atm)

Is it better than a Steam box. Depends on your configuration. Given that 
you mostly can play aa and b titles on the Steam box natively and have 
to stream the AAA games anyway, I am not sure if I would recommend a 
Steambox over this. If you have a cabled ethernet solution then I would 
rather save my money on the Steambox and go for this little box, if not 
and you really want pc gaming on your TV I probably would rather go for 
a windows based machine and would run steam on that one.
I personally see the Steambox as safety net for Valve just in case 
Microsoft takes entirely over the Windows app store market and closes 
Windows for alternative app stores.