🚀 go-pugleaf

On Fri, 09 Jan 2015 14:46:26 +0100, Werner Punz <we...@gmx.at> wrote:

>Seems like AMD has revealed Freesync at the CES 2015
>
>Here is the info I got from various newssnippets:
>The first monitors are available from March onwards.
>
>Here is a list of monitors coming out in march.
>
>
>Vendor 	Model 	 Size 			Resolution 	Refresh rate
>BenQ 	XL2730Z  27 Inch 		2.560 × 1.440 	144 Hz
>LG  	29UM67 	 29 Inch 		2.560 × 1.080 	75 Hz
>LG  	34UM67 	 34 Inch 		2.560 × 1.080 	75 Hz
>Nixeus 	NX-VUE24 24 Inch 		1.920 × 1.080 	144 Hz
>Samsung UE590 	 23,6 / 28 Inch 	3.840 × 2.160 	60 Hz
>Samsung UE850 	 23,6 / 28 / 31,5 Inch 	3.840 × 2.160 	60 Hz
>Viewsonic VX2701mh 27 Inch 		1.920 × 1.080 	144 Hz
>
>
>About 20 monitors and 10 vendors will be among this list until the years 
>end. Apparently some vendors will patch existing monitors if possible. 
>There are rumors that Iiyama might patch their to one model
>most likely the B2888UHSU-B1 (which I apparently have), but those are 
>rumors, which crawled up then were denied (due to no official info 
>available yet from Iiyamas side) and then crawled up again from AMDs 
>side during the CES. So I am on a wait and see loop, if this monitor 
>really will be patched then AMD has sold automatically a card to me.
>
>Also have in mind not all AMD cards will support FreeSync only a handful 
>some older some newer here is the list straight from AMD:
>
>All AMD Radeon graphics cards in the AMD Radeon HD 7000, HD 8000, R7 or 
>R9 Series will support Project FreeSync for video playback and 
>power-saving purposes. The AMD Radeon™ R9 295X2, 290X, R9 290, R9 285, 
>R7 260X and R7 260 GPUs additionally feature updated display controllers 
>that will support dynamic refresh rates during gaming.
>
>So only a handful of AMD cards will support freesync for gaming.

Kind of ironic that AMD was quick to claim they had a "software-only"
solution to g-sync, yet they are unable to fully implement that
software in back-level hardware. lol

Wonder if they will retrofit it into the current gen of console GPUs?
Since AMD's marketshare in PC gaming has been crushed over the last
few years, it seems to me that's where AMD needs this technology the
most.  Granted, it's a little easier to test and optimize a console
title to work on relatively poor-performing televisions, and I doubt
consolers are even in touch with some of the reasons why they might
want the technology, but otherwise its hard to know why a huge number
of monitor vendors would be overly excited about chasing after a lower
piece of the marketshare pie.

Will be interesting to see how it all pans out.  I am going to be very
surprised if the first few years of of Freesync ends up being "problem
free".  

Longer-term?  Who knows -- maybe we will all be using DisplayPort
Adaptive-Sync (for which "Project FreeSync" is connected to, but not
the same thing... Freesync is simply AMDs proprietary implementation
of DPAS).  There may come a day when both AMD and Nvidia card owners
use DPAS and it is built in to all monitors and TVs.  In the mean time
I'm not touching anything from AMD that starts with the word "Project"
with a ten foot pole.

Am 09.01.15 um 16:51 schrieb Rin Stowleigh:

> Longer-term?  Who knows -- maybe we will all be using DisplayPort
> Adaptive-Sync (for which "Project FreeSync" is connected to, but not
> the same thing... Freesync is simply AMDs proprietary implementation
> of DPAS).  There may come a day when both AMD and Nvidia card owners
> use DPAS and it is built in to all monitors and TVs.  In the mean time
> I'm not touching anything from AMD that starts with the word "Project"
> with a ten foot pole.

Actually from what I could gather, FreeSync is basically DP Adaptive 
sync, with some logic in the drivers. On the hardware side nothing 
proprietary is there.

It apparently also is cheaper to implement than G-Sync. In the end 
usually the cheaper more versatile solution will win out.

It also will depend on Intel which have about 70% of the graphics chip 
market  due to their integrated graphics if this solution will win out 
or not. But for the monitor manufacturers adding FreeSync / DP Adaptive 
sync to a monitor is a no brainer GSYNC however needs some custom 
hardware logic from NVidia which is rather expensive hence the steep 
prices for G-Sync atm.

Werner

Am 09.01.15 um 16:51 schrieb Rin Stowleigh:
> Wonder if they will retrofit it into the current gen of console GPUs?
> Since AMD's marketshare in PC gaming has been crushed over the last
> few years, it seems to me that's where AMD needs this technology the
> most.

Well most of the APUs currently sold are Freesync capable according to 
AMD, there is however one problem, you cannot retrofit this into the 
consoles, because they rely on HDMI and adaptive sync only works for 
displayport 1.2a/1.3 ATM. Not sure if HDMI 2.0 will bring adaptive sync 
to the table, but even then it is to late for the current crop of consoles.

Werner

On Fri, 09 Jan 2015 17:26:50 +0100, Werner Punz <we...@gmx.at> wrote:

>Am 09.01.15 um 16:51 schrieb Rin Stowleigh:
>
>> Longer-term?  Who knows -- maybe we will all be using DisplayPort
>> Adaptive-Sync (for which "Project FreeSync" is connected to, but not
>> the same thing... Freesync is simply AMDs proprietary implementation
>> of DPAS).  There may come a day when both AMD and Nvidia card owners
>> use DPAS and it is built in to all monitors and TVs.  In the mean time
>> I'm not touching anything from AMD that starts with the word "Project"
>> with a ten foot pole.
>
>Actually from what I could gather, FreeSync is basically DP Adaptive 
>sync, with some logic in the drivers. On the hardware side nothing 
>proprietary is there.
>
>It apparently also is cheaper to implement than G-Sync. In the end 
>usually the cheaper more versatile solution will win out.

It is cheaper on paper for a monitor maker to implement because they
do not have to pay Nvidia's licensing fee, but they also do not get
Nvidia's support.  

Development teams over the years have talked about how superior Nvidia
is to work with when it comes to support, and this is why the have
trouble achieving the same quality levels when developing with AMD's
products.  That level of higher quality support will always come at a
cost, and NVidia has been eating into AMD's marketshare for a long
time now despite that higher cost, which would imply that gamers care
more about overall value (taking quality into consideration) than a
lower price tag.

If by some miracle AMD actually gets to a point where they can achieve
the same level of support for integrating vendors and overall software
quality, only then will Nvidia need to find ways to compete on cost.

>It also will depend on Intel which have about 70% of the graphics chip 
>market  due to their integrated graphics if this solution will win out 
>or not. But for the monitor manufacturers adding FreeSync / DP Adaptive 
>sync to a monitor is a no brainer GSYNC however needs some custom 
>hardware logic from NVidia which is rather expensive hence the steep 
>prices for G-Sync atm.

See above regarding cost.  Nvidia has always had a price point, yet
has still been eating AMD/ATIs lunch.

I can certainly see how Intel will go the way of DPAS (not the
Freesync implementation obviously, but their own), and I suspect that
may create challenges until DPAS matures.

In the long-term I can fully see us all using DPAS once it all gets
ironed out, but I can also see other potential wackiness looming. Just
as folks are convinced they need 4K displays on a monitor that's
sitting only a short distance from their face, in a few years we can
expect the industry to convince them they will need 8K or 12K or
whatever the latest and greatest thing is, and at that point the
current implementation of Display Port and everything tied to it will
probably become victims of planned obsolescense, and just as we see in
the case of g-sync, proprietary innovations tend to keep up with the
rapid change of technology pace better than open source solutions.

I hope we get to a point where all monitors just work with all video
cards without issues, I'm just not holding my breath for that day and
I'm glad to have g-sync now.

On Fri, 09 Jan 2015 17:30:50 +0100, Werner Punz <we...@gmx.at> wrote:

>Am 09.01.15 um 16:51 schrieb Rin Stowleigh:
>> Wonder if they will retrofit it into the current gen of console GPUs?
>> Since AMD's marketshare in PC gaming has been crushed over the last
>> few years, it seems to me that's where AMD needs this technology the
>> most.
>
>Well most of the APUs currently sold are Freesync capable according to 
>AMD, there is however one problem, you cannot retrofit this into the 
>consoles, because they rely on HDMI and adaptive sync only works for 
>displayport 1.2a/1.3 ATM. Not sure if HDMI 2.0 will bring adaptive sync 
>to the table, but even then it is to late for the current crop of consoles.

True, at least until the hardware refreshes for consoles come
(assuming history repeats and they are refreshed at all I should say).
Short-term though I doubt too many people with investments in large
HDMI TVs really want to toss them for new ones that support DP either.

You left out:
http://www.pcper.com/news/Displays/CES-2015-ASUS-MG279Q-27-2560x1440-IPS-120-Hz-Variable-Refresh-Monitor

Asus is avoiding vendor-specific labelling, a good thing.

rms 

On Fri, 9 Jan 2015 12:26:26 -0700, "rms" <rsqui...@MOOflashMOO.net>
wrote:

>You left out:
>http://www.pcper.com/news/Displays/CES-2015-ASUS-MG279Q-27-2560x1440-IPS-120-Hz-Variable-Refresh-Monitor
>
>Asus is avoiding vendor-specific labelling, a good thing.

When I first read your post, I thought you meant vendor-specific as in
AMD versus Nvidia, but I see what you mean after reading the article.
ASUS doesn't want to call the technology "Freesync", they'd rather
just say it supports Display Port Adaptive Sync.  

And IMO that's a very wise strategy for a monitor manufacturer,
knowing that of course Intel is going to support DPAS at some point,
and we will probably even see mobile devices that don't necessarily
have anything to do with AMD (iPads, phones, laptops etc... pretty
much anything that displays games or video)  also supporting DPAS.  In
fact, Nvidia can surely add support with a simple driver update (even
though they are saying they won't at this point, who knows).  It would
be kind of silly to sell a monitor as a "Freesync" monitor instead of
a monitor with DPAS support, because it then would put Asus on the
hook for compatibility support.

However, that's kind of bad news for AMD, because it means their
"brand" name (Freesync) of DPAS is kind of worthless in itself.  I
don't mean their actual implementation is worthless, I just mean their
own nomenclature that differentiates theirs from anyone elses.

Am 09.01.15 um 20:57 schrieb Rin Stowleigh:

> However, that's kind of bad news for AMD, because it means their
> "brand" name (Freesync) of DPAS is kind of worthless in itself.  I
> don't mean their actual implementation is worthless, I just mean their
> own nomenclature that differentiates theirs from anyone elses.
>
Freesync is just the drivers anyway on top of VESA adaptive sync.

On Fri, 09 Jan 2015 14:57:28 -0500, Rin Stowleigh
<rstow...@nevrhadgmail.com> wrote:

>On Fri, 9 Jan 2015 12:26:26 -0700, "rms" <rsqui...@MOOflashMOO.net>
>wrote:
>
>>You left out:
>>http://www.pcper.com/news/Displays/CES-2015-ASUS-MG279Q-27-2560x1440-IPS-120-Hz-Variable-Refresh-Monitor
>>
>>Asus is avoiding vendor-specific labelling, a good thing.
>
>When I first read your post, I thought you meant vendor-specific as in
>AMD versus Nvidia, but I see what you mean after reading the article.
>ASUS doesn't want to call the technology "Freesync", they'd rather
>just say it supports Display Port Adaptive Sync.  
>
>And IMO that's a very wise strategy for a monitor manufacturer,
>knowing that of course Intel is going to support DPAS at some point,
>and we will probably even see mobile devices that don't necessarily
>have anything to do with AMD (iPads, phones, laptops etc... pretty
>much anything that displays games or video)  also supporting DPAS.  In
>fact, Nvidia can surely add support with a simple driver update (even
>though they are saying they won't at this point, who knows).  It would
>be kind of silly to sell a monitor as a "Freesync" monitor instead of
>a monitor with DPAS support, because it then would put Asus on the
>hook for compatibility support.
>
>However, that's kind of bad news for AMD, because it means their
>"brand" name (Freesync) of DPAS is kind of worthless in itself.  I
>don't mean their actual implementation is worthless, I just mean their
>own nomenclature that differentiates theirs from anyone elses.

FreeSync is an unfortunate choice by AMD. Brings up visions of a "Free
Lunch". And given the AMD secrecy over releasing any technical spec or
the lack of a challenging demo,  I suspect that the comparison with
the notion of a "free lunch" will be apt. I suppose a great way to
market a few AMD video cards to techno-morons.

John Lewis

On Sat, 10 Jan 2015 21:12:52 GMT, john...@frontier.com (John Lewis)
wrote:

>On Fri, 09 Jan 2015 14:57:28 -0500, Rin Stowleigh
><rstow...@nevrhadgmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 9 Jan 2015 12:26:26 -0700, "rms" <rsqui...@MOOflashMOO.net>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>You left out:
>>>http://www.pcper.com/news/Displays/CES-2015-ASUS-MG279Q-27-2560x1440-IPS-120-Hz-Variable-Refresh-Monitor
>>>
>>>Asus is avoiding vendor-specific labelling, a good thing.
>>
>>When I first read your post, I thought you meant vendor-specific as in
>>AMD versus Nvidia, but I see what you mean after reading the article.
>>ASUS doesn't want to call the technology "Freesync", they'd rather
>>just say it supports Display Port Adaptive Sync.  
>>
>>And IMO that's a very wise strategy for a monitor manufacturer,
>>knowing that of course Intel is going to support DPAS at some point,
>>and we will probably even see mobile devices that don't necessarily
>>have anything to do with AMD (iPads, phones, laptops etc... pretty
>>much anything that displays games or video)  also supporting DPAS.  In
>>fact, Nvidia can surely add support with a simple driver update (even
>>though they are saying they won't at this point, who knows).  It would
>>be kind of silly to sell a monitor as a "Freesync" monitor instead of
>>a monitor with DPAS support, because it then would put Asus on the
>>hook for compatibility support.
>>
>>However, that's kind of bad news for AMD, because it means their
>>"brand" name (Freesync) of DPAS is kind of worthless in itself.  I
>>don't mean their actual implementation is worthless, I just mean their
>>own nomenclature that differentiates theirs from anyone elses.
>
>FreeSync is an unfortunate choice by AMD. Brings up visions of a "Free
>Lunch". And given the AMD secrecy over releasing any technical spec or
>the lack of a challenging demo,  I suspect that the comparison with
>the notion of a "free lunch" will be apt. I suppose a great way to
>market a few AMD video cards to techno-morons.

Yes, I do think the name choice was intended to take some of the
thunder out of Nvidia's g-sync announcement, capitalizing on the fact
that they aren't really inventing anything therefore they won't be
charging licensing fees (to monitor manufacturers).  People get
excited by the idea of free stuff, so it's just a marketing gimmick. I
personally would be more impressed if they weren't such a "me too"
company.  Quality products cost money to produce, and if there is less
money coming in to finance that quality, then the quality will suffer.
I don't know why they seem to strive to be Nvidia's cheaper, less
impressive cousin.