🚀 go-pugleaf

On Sun, 22 Dec 2013 14:53:56 +0400, Andrew Rybenkov <aryb...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Flash-sale games are full of unfinished (so called "early access") crap.

now it is even more ridiculous: Flash Sale: a dlc for "early access" game. Really?

-- 
Andrew Rybenkov

On Sun, 22 Dec 2013 16:33:57 +0400, "Andrew Rybenkov"
<aryb...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 22 Dec 2013 14:53:56 +0400, Andrew Rybenkov <aryb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Flash-sale games are full of unfinished (so called "early access") crap.
>
>now it is even more ridiculous: Flash Sale: a dlc for "early access" game. Really?

DLC for a game that hasn't even been released?

This early access bullshit needs to die, and fast. Essentially, you
are paying for the privilege of being an employee by beta-testing (or
even alpha-testing) the developer's software.  It's one thing if they
allow access to the beta for free (in which point, you are still
working for the employer, but you are getting paid by being allowed to
see the game before anyone else), but this is just "double-dipping". 

And DLC is extra content you can download; once you release it, a game
should be considered "finalized" by customers and reviewers, no matter
what "alpha" or "beta" label the developers smack on their product.
Once money changes hands, the game deserves to be ranked against all
other titles.

Which means most "early release" titles should have metascritic
ratings around the same as other "we-made-you-pay-for-it" alpha
releases like "Big Rigs: Over The Road Racing" 

*

But back on topic, yeah, this year's Steam Holiday Sale is pretty
poor. The discounts are not impressive on the games I want to buy, and
those games that do have a good price do not interest me in the least.
We're three days into the sale and I still haven't purchased one game.

My first Steam Holiday Sale, I was probably picking up at least one
every day, often more.

I think Valve has realized that a lot of gamers - like myself - were
just waiting for their big sales to purchase the "big-ticket" items.
Instead of paying $60 for a new game, I would just wait until a sale
and get it for $10. So instead of drawing in new customers, the sales
were simply dropping the average price point that gamers found
acceptable. So now Valve is limiting how low the discounts can go in
an attempt to raise that point to something they can make a profit on.

Instead, I think I will gravitate more towards GOG and get my games
there. Better prices and no DRM to boot. 

 



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On Sun, 22 Dec 2013 18:35:29 +0400, Spalls Hurgenson <spallsh...@gmail.com> wrote:

> DLC for a game that hasn't even been released?
>

yeah: The Mighty Quest For Epic Loot - Knight Founders Pack, DLC for
early access "The Mighty Quest For Epic Loot".

> This early access bullshit needs to die, and fast. Essentially, you
> are paying for the privilege of being an employee by beta-testing (or
> even alpha-testing) the developer's software.  It's one thing if they
> allow access to the beta for free (in which point, you are still
> working for the employer, but you are getting paid by being allowed to
> see the game before anyone else), but this is just "double-dipping".

Exactly my thoughts. And not so long ago - just ~20 years - they paid you
to test their games. Now, suddenly, we got this perversion: to pay to become
a guinea pig.

>
> And DLC is extra content you can download; once you release it, a game
> should be considered "finalized" by customers and reviewers, no matter
> what "alpha" or "beta" label the developers smack on their product.
> Once money changes hands, the game deserves to be ranked against all
> other titles.
>
>

yes and yes

> My first Steam Holiday Sale, I was probably picking up at least one
> every day, often more.
>

same here.
It is not that now I have big Steam library and have little to buy. I just
am disturbed with lack of Valve's enthusiasm to make interesting sale event.



-- 
Andrew Rybenkov

"Andrew Rybenkov"<aryb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Flash-sale games are full of unfinished (so called "early access") crap.
>
>now it is even more ridiculous: Flash Sale: a dlc for "early access" game. Really?

Spalls Hurgenson  <spallsh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>DLC for a game that hasn't even been released?

My eyes popped out when I saw the DLC tag on a flash sale item, but it's
not as bad as it looks.  It's a free-to-play game, so "DLC" is the actual
main product being sold.

>This early access bullshit needs to die, and fast. Essentially, you
>are paying for the privilege of being an employee by beta-testing (or
>even alpha-testing) the developer's software.  It's one thing if they
>allow access to the beta for free (in which point, you are still
>working for the employer, but you are getting paid by being allowed to
>see the game before anyone else), but this is just "double-dipping". 

This is mostly how I feel, but at least the developers are being honest
about it.  A lot of the smaller and publishers and developers have a habit
of releasing supposedly finished games that are buggy unplayable mess.
It's not until a few patches later that you get something that could
really be called inished.

>But back on topic, yeah, this year's Steam Holiday Sale is pretty
>poor. The discounts are not impressive on the games I want to buy, and
>those games that do have a good price do not interest me in the least.
>We're three days into the sale and I still haven't purchased one game.

This sale has been a bit better than I expected for me.  I was assuming
I'd get nothing like I did at the Thankgiving sale not too long ago,
but so far I've gotten Spore ($5) and the Bioshock Triple Pack (all
3 games for $15).  Prices otherwise have been what I was expecting,
even on games I do want to buy, but didn't because they were still too
expensive as I knew they would be.

>Instead, I think I will gravitate more towards GOG and get my games
>there. Better prices and no DRM to boot. 

I haven't bought anything from GOG this sale, and I don't really expect
to as well.  I bought pretty much everything I wanted from the site
during last year's sale, so there isn't much left that I'd want to
buy this sale.  I think is the same sort of reason why you, Andrew and
everyone who complains about much how worse the Steam sale has gotten
every year thinks that way.

Another reason why I'm not buying as many games as I have during past
sales is that my backlog is grown way too big.  I've got more than
enough games to last me until to next years sale so a great game at a
great price gets a pass from me if I already have a bunch of games like
it in my backlog.

					Ross Ridge

-- 
 l/  //	  Ross Ridge -- The Great HTMU
[oo][oo]  rri...@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
-()-/()/  http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca/~rridge/ 
 db  //	  

On Sun, 22 Dec 2013 09:35:29 -0500, Spalls Hurgenson
<spallsh...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 22 Dec 2013 16:33:57 +0400, "Andrew Rybenkov"
><aryb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 22 Dec 2013 14:53:56 +0400, Andrew Rybenkov <aryb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Flash-sale games are full of unfinished (so called "early access") crap.
>>
>>now it is even more ridiculous: Flash Sale: a dlc for "early access" game. Really?
>
>DLC for a game that hasn't even been released?
>
>This early access bullshit needs to die, and fast. Essentially, you
>are paying for the privilege of being an employee by beta-testing (or
>even alpha-testing) the developer's software.  It's one thing if they
>allow access to the beta for free (in which point, you are still
>working for the employer, but you are getting paid by being allowed to
>see the game before anyone else), but this is just "double-dipping". 

This has been one of my biggest peeves of the last year or so, this
trend of early access and releasing half-baked games.  

On one hand, small indie shops may not have the financial resources
available to conduct proper alpha testing before going beta.  Even in
beta, I'm generally not interested.  I want a finished game.
Technically they are not finished even when they are, the never ending
patching goes on and on; that is a normal part of the software
lifecycle.  

However, there was a time when games were completed to a state of
stability that amounted to every major bug that was known by
development was fixed, then it went to alpha to weed out any bugs
internal testers could find, then beta to find the more obscure bugs
like installing across a wider range of hardware, server load issues,
etc.

These days, the title just gets thrown over the fence in a state of
50% completion and the customer is told they get the privilege of
helping shape the game.  I guess to some extent the trend is a
response to the incessant whining about how the game should have been
this or that.

All I can hope is that the Steam Reviews feature will help mitigate
this "early access" disease that has been plaguing the industry.  If a
half-baked game is what is presented to the gamer, then let it be
judged and rated on that state.  Buggy?  Then it gets a shitty rating.
Most people are not going to go back and slowly update their rating or
recommendation as bugs get repaired.

In article <q4tdb9dc8incg0n5u...@4ax.com>, 
spallsh...@gmail.com says...
> 
> This early access bullshit needs to die, and fast. Essentially, you
> are paying for the privilege of being an employee by beta-testing (or
> even alpha-testing) the developer's software.  It's one thing if they
> allow access to the beta for free (in which point, you are still
> working for the employer, but you are getting paid by being allowed to
> see the game before anyone else), but this is just "double-dipping". 
> 
> 
> 

Could not agree more - and in fact I have said as much recently on the 
Kickstarter page for Wasteland 2. Having to pay for "early beta access" 
is just ... ridiculous, bizarre in my book. Once upon a time you had to 
show documentation skills and computing ability as well as submit your 
hardware specs when applying for beta testing, and vice versa you got 
extra software, gifts or even remuneration for testing --- documenting 
and putting in a fair few grinding hours to try and break the software 
and find bugs is not exactly unmitigated fun, if done properly ... these 
days they get some eager beaver impatient kids to do that for them, and 
pay for the privilege.
And instead of documented bug reports they get 'wishlists' and would 
yous and could yous submitted on their web forums.

{shakes head} double dipping, indeed. And lazy. It only works because 
there are usually one or three folk who really do put their nose to the 
grindstone regardless of being ripped off, and they probably never even 
get an honerable mention.

-P. 

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On Sun, 22 Dec 2013 16:33:57 +0400, Andrew Rybenkov <aryb...@gmail.com> wrote:

> now it is even more ridiculous: Flash Sale: a dlc for "early access" game.

and even more ridiculousness:
Flash Sale: Strike Suit Zero with 0(zero)% discount at Russian Steam.
http://store.steampowered.com/?cc=ru

Very funny.

-- 
Andrew Rybenkov

"Andrew Rybenkov" <aryb...@gmail.com> looked up from reading the
entrails of the porn spammer to utter  "The Augury is good, the signs
say:

>On Sun, 22 Dec 2013 16:33:57 +0400, Andrew Rybenkov <aryb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> now it is even more ridiculous: Flash Sale: a dlc for "early access" game.
>
>and even more ridiculousness:
>Flash Sale: Strike Suit Zero with 0(zero)% discount at Russian Steam.
>http://store.steampowered.com/?cc=ru
>
>Very funny.

Working on the same logic as that old joke of the wife coming home with
bags and bags of clothes and exclaiming to her husband that she _saved_
them hundreds of dollars with her thousand dollar shopping spree.

Put the word sale in front of something and people will buy it even if
they have no need for it or any real desire for it, they just can't pass
up the "savings" they'd lose by not buying it.
Don't even need a real discount, just as long as the idiots think
they're saving.

Never seems to occur to them that spending nothing is the biggest
savings of all.



Not unlike the idiots who go cross border shopping to save extra money,
apparently not realizing that because it's cross border, there's no
warranty on the stuff they're bringing back.
Yep it was cheaper (was it, after the gas burned is factored in?) but
the moment there's a problem with it, it gets a lot more expensive.


Xocyll

On Sun, 22 Dec 2013 14:53:56 +0400, Andrew Rybenkov <aryb...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Is Valve loose grip or interest for selling games or altogether?
>

year ago
http://web.archive.org/web/20121225034803/http://store.steampowered.com/

and now
http://store.steampowered.com/

pitiful.


-- 
Andrew Rybenkov

On Wed, 25 Dec 2013 22:13:43 +0400, "Andrew Rybenkov"
<aryb...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 22 Dec 2013 14:53:56 +0400, Andrew Rybenkov <aryb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Is Valve loose grip or interest for selling games or altogether?

It's really not up to Valve what goes on sale, it's up to the
publishers what they want to advertise and where.  It's possible that
a lot of the marketing folks at these publishers are spending their
advertising dollars on gaining audience for newer consoles (larger
audience and higher cost per game) than preparing sales for older PC
titles on Steam.

Besides, there wasn't a great deal of great new titles that emerged
last year to really discount, so they may be figuring why go to a lot
of effort to put the same games they've been selling for the last 2
years up again.

Sadly, intro of new consoles is usually not a great thing for PC
gamers.  It's not even good for the purchasers of the new consoles,
because most of the titles they will see for the first year or so are
really stuff that was originally targeting the 360 or PS3, and has
just been tweaked slightly to run at a better resolution. 

I think it might take a couple of years for PC gaming to start to
benefit from next gen consoles at all.

On Thu, 26 Dec 2013 00:15:55 +0400, Rin Stowleigh <rstow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> It's really not up to Valve what goes on sale, it's up to the
> publishers what they want to advertise and where.  It's possible that
> a lot of the marketing folks at these publishers are spending their
> advertising dollars on gaining audience for newer consoles (larger
> audience and higher cost per game) than preparing sales for older PC
> titles on Steam.
> ....

While I mostly agree with your arguments in general, in case of this sale I think
someone (responsible for it) should be fired: uninspired event, too many slips,
and at top of all they successfuly self-DDoS'ed own store.

-- 
Andrew Rybenkov

On Thu, 26 Dec 2013 01:11:03 +0400, "Andrew Rybenkov"
<aryb...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 26 Dec 2013 00:15:55 +0400, Rin Stowleigh <rstow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> It's really not up to Valve what goes on sale, it's up to the
>> publishers what they want to advertise and where.  It's possible that
>> a lot of the marketing folks at these publishers are spending their
>> advertising dollars on gaining audience for newer consoles (larger
>> audience and higher cost per game) than preparing sales for older PC
>> titles on Steam.
>> ....
>
>While I mostly agree with your arguments in general, in case of this sale I think
>someone (responsible for it) should be fired: uninspired event, too many slips,
>and at top of all they successfuly self-DDoS'ed own store.

Well you could always send Gabe Newell an e-mail suggesting he fire
himself. :)  Problem is, what he lacks in the looks department he
makes up for in brains, and his company is a powerhouse private
company -- his company never sold out and went public, therefore there
is no board of directors to decide he should be fired if they don't
like what he does.

Honestly though I think the angst toward Valve is misdirected.  The
store may be down because they tried to do something nice and give
away Left for Dead 2 for free.  Damned if you do and damned if you
don't.  The games on sale are up to the publishers of that game. Valve
gave you the ultimate sale on one of the few games they publish.