🚀 go-pugleaf

On Sun, 24 Mar 2013 23:13:55 -0400, "Jim" <gtfo@stfu.invalid> wrote:

>"John Lewis" <john...@frontier.com> wrote in message 
>news:514ca15c.9732859@news.giganews.com...
>> Valve, being chronic $$control-freaks$$, will probably now
>> contractually insist that any games achieving "greenlit" status either
>> be sold exclusively using Steam-DRM,. or have a limited Steam initial
>> exclusivity....
>>
>> BTW, you can indeed now preorder the game on GOG.... DRM-free, of
>> course....
>
>There are DRM free games on Steam so I don't think its required.
>http://www.gog.com/forum/general/list_of_drmfree_games_on_steam/page1
>Skyrim was DRM free until the first patch so if it is required its not 
>enforced very well. 
>

Thanks for the list.

John Lewis

In article <kir0gb$95d$1...@dont-email.me>, dal...@cs.queensu.ca says...
> 
> It has been many moons since I used a CD-key game so I have forgotten 
> most details. If I recall correctly you'd install the game, but it 
> wouldn't work until you typed in the CD key; the installed game only 
> enabled itself for use if it decided the long string of characters was a 
> valid key. What was it that prevented someone from using the same key on 
> different machines? Online registration? CD key had to match something 
> in the data burned into the CD itself and CD had to be in the drive? 
> something else? If you required online registration of a CD key, then 
> surely that was authentication. If not -- what was it that prevented 
> somebody from using the same key on different machines?


I used one yesterday. Installed SE5 on my laptop, typed in the long-
winded cd key and that was it. NO online validatin' (how, the company's 
gone), no The CD Must Be In The Drive nuissance... 

Not all of them are like that of course.

I also installed Fallout 1 at the same time. No shagging around with CD 
keys or anything else there. Interplay was always good like that. One 
reason I often bought games off them.

-P.

On Tue, 26 Mar 2013 00:57:50 -0400, Rin Stowleigh
<rstow...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tue, 26 Mar 2013 04:28:52 GMT, john...@frontier.com (John Lewis)
>wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 25 Mar 2013 22:19:53 -0400, David Lamb <dal...@cs.queensu.ca>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On 25/03/2013 6:40 PM, Rin Stowleigh wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 25 Mar 2013 22:01:56 GMT, john...@frontier.com (John Lewis)
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 25 Mar 2013 01:06:38 -0400, Rin Stowleigh
>>>>> <rstow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Simple authentication and not DRM.
>>>>> Simple authentication used to mean a CD-Key, locking the game to its
>>>>> purchased CD or DVD.
>>>>
>>>> No, you're just confusing matters.  That is a form of copy protection,
>>>> not authentication.  Please research these things before discussing,
>>>> because a mistake like this so early in the post nulllifies pretty
>>>> much everything that follows it.
>>>
>>>When I first read your post, Rin, I thought, yeah, copy protection and 
>>>authentication are different things, and then I started wondering 
>>>whether the difference makes any difference and which one CD keys really 
>>>were. Do you have technical definitions of both terms that would make it 
>>>clear that the difference matters?
>>>
>>>It has been many moons since I used a CD-key game so I have forgotten 
>>>most details. If I recall correctly you'd install the game, but it 
>>>wouldn't work until you typed in the CD key; the installed game only 
>>>enabled itself for use if it decided the long string of characters was a 
>>>valid key. What was it that prevented someone from using the same key on 
>>>different machines? Online registration? CD key had to match something 
>>>in the data burned into the CD itself and CD had to be in the drive? 
>>>something else? If you required online registration of a CD key, then 
>>>surely that was authentication. If not -- what was it that prevented 
>>>somebody from using the same key on different machines?
>>>
>>
>>David, 
>>
>>Unlike Rin,  I am quite happy to accepts Amazon's definition of 
>>Steam's ... "authentication"  process of locking a game purchase to
>>an unchangeable on-line account, access to which is REQUIRED to
>>install (or re-install) the game. Amazon labels it Steam-DRM, putting
>>it in the same category as Ubisoft's UPlay, Origin and Games for
>>Windows all intended to inhibit the sale or re-distribution of PC
>>games. In all these cases, to move the game to a party other than the
>>original purchaser, the umbilically attached account must be
>>transferred as well, and all the EULAs for these schemes specifically
>>prohibit the transfers of the associated account.
>>
>>There are some interesting cases wending their ways slowly through the
>>US courts with regard to the disposal of 'virtual assets' belonging to
>>a decesed person. The argument that such assets die with the owner
>>will not hold water.. the EFF and others are beginning  to take an
>>active interest.  The most interesting issues will arise if some of
>>the assets are to be divided between heirs and they happen to be
>>authentication-attached to one on-line account. 
>>
>>John Lewis
>
>But do you realize that the "Steam-DRM" in the case you've just
>described, regardless of how it is described by Amazon, is imposed by
>the publisher of the game, and not Valve?  They are specifically using
>a feature that is available to them on Steam that will lock their CD
>to that account.  *Steam does not require this for all games*.
>
>That's what I mean by Steam's only mandate is authentication, not
>authorization (or DRM).  
>
>Not all games on Amazon that are Steam-enabled use the term
>"Steam-DRM", and you seem to be under the impression they do.  Far Cry
>3, for example, is available on Amazon with Steam-DRM as a purchase
>option, as opposed to using Uplay DRM.  It's a simple choice they are
>providing the consumer, you don't have to choose it.
>

The retail box version of Far Cry3 uses UPlay only, the download
version have Steam-DRM PLUS Uplay. In the case of Far Cry 3 the  only
'advantage' of the additional Steam-DRM ( er, "authentication") is the
auto-updates. However the latest patch for the disc-distribution of
Far Cry3 is available on Patches-Scrolls

>Bioshock Infinite simply says "Requires Steam Client to activate", and
>makes no mention of Steam-DRM.

Sure. Amazon sometimes alternates between having "Steam-DRM" in the
selection block and the text that you mentioned.  Notice the word
":Requires" ..... whicxh automatically locks the purchase to a fixed
Steam account and the automatic (developer/distributor, NOT customer) 
Rights Management --- the denial of the ability for the customer to
frelly use or dispose of his/her LEGITIMATELY PURCHASE game
in any way he/she desires. Hopefully, the day will never come when 
any of my otrher tangible purchases will be saubject to the same
restriction. If the distributors of games were honest enough to admit
that they were really renting the games, then they would come up with
an appropriate rental model via Steam, Uplay, GFW, Origin, with a
downward sliding scale as the game got older. No, they want their 
full-purchase cash up front and let the customer deal with the
restrictive consequences of their rental-DRM. 

Thank goodness for GOG.com and their rapidly expanding inventory of
DRM-free classic PC games..

BW, the subject of the re-sale of electronic books has become a hot
legal topic. Interesting to find Amazon and Apple/iTunes and the
libraries all on the same side. Once that domino falls --- which it
will do, gives the centuries of history of the resale of physical
books, then DRM-protected download video games and digital music
should be next. 


>
>Once again, rather than take a few minutes to do the research, you've
>been ranting on here for weeks about "Steam-DRM" to refer to any game
>played on Steam.
>
>Now Bethesda, the one company you always cite as the shining
>cant-do-wrong, has chosen to use Steamworks-DRM for their games.  The
>Steamworks-DRM is a service that Valve provides if their customer
>(Bethesda in this case) would like to use it.  They charge for the
>service.   Amazon does not always list whether or not a game uses
>Steamworks-DRM because it has no bearing on which version the user
>should buy (see above about the Steam-DRM vs Uplay DRM option in the
>case of Far Cry 3).

Sure, I am well aware that BethSoft is using Steam-DRM for Skyrim.
Sad, really, since FO3/PC had massive sales without the need of any
such piracy-protection. You do know that one of the virtues of
Steam-DRM-encryption and attachment to a fixed Steam account is a
pretty effective means of preventing casual pirscy, didn't you ??

Steam-DRM is an old piracy-protection sock pretending it is a rose.

However, Steam as a distribution system involving a large and diverse
client base of PC gamers does bring enormous benefit to developers
trying to bring the best gaming experiences to their customers. The
Steam "Early Access" program is a serious attempt
in that direction, the presence of Steam-DRM is a lesser evil than 
the purchaser throwing away good money on  many of the horrible
rushed-to-market games we have seen recently.
>
>Once again, you are recklessly spreading misinformation without doing
>your homework first.  You've wasted a lot of folks' time with all of
>this nonsense.  The least you could do is start with a bit of a clue
>going into each rant.

Your frustration with my relentless loigic is showing :-) :-)

John Lewis

On Tue, 26 Mar 2013 20:09:50 GMT, john...@frontier.com (John Lewis)
wrote:

>On Tue, 26 Mar 2013 00:57:50 -0400, Rin Stowleigh
><rstow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 26 Mar 2013 04:28:52 GMT, john...@frontier.com (John Lewis)
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 25 Mar 2013 22:19:53 -0400, David Lamb <dal...@cs.queensu.ca>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>On 25/03/2013 6:40 PM, Rin Stowleigh wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 25 Mar 2013 22:01:56 GMT, john...@frontier.com (John Lewis)
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> On Mon, 25 Mar 2013 01:06:38 -0400, Rin Stowleigh
>>>>>> <rstow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Simple authentication and not DRM.
>>>>>> Simple authentication used to mean a CD-Key, locking the game to its
>>>>>> purchased CD or DVD.
>>>>>
>>>>> No, you're just confusing matters.  That is a form of copy protection,
>>>>> not authentication.  Please research these things before discussing,
>>>>> because a mistake like this so early in the post nulllifies pretty
>>>>> much everything that follows it.
>>>>
>>>>When I first read your post, Rin, I thought, yeah, copy protection and 
>>>>authentication are different things, and then I started wondering 
>>>>whether the difference makes any difference and which one CD keys really 
>>>>were. Do you have technical definitions of both terms that would make it 
>>>>clear that the difference matters?
>>>>
>>>>It has been many moons since I used a CD-key game so I have forgotten 
>>>>most details. If I recall correctly you'd install the game, but it 
>>>>wouldn't work until you typed in the CD key; the installed game only 
>>>>enabled itself for use if it decided the long string of characters was a 
>>>>valid key. What was it that prevented someone from using the same key on 
>>>>different machines? Online registration? CD key had to match something 
>>>>in the data burned into the CD itself and CD had to be in the drive? 
>>>>something else? If you required online registration of a CD key, then 
>>>>surely that was authentication. If not -- what was it that prevented 
>>>>somebody from using the same key on different machines?
>>>>
>>>
>>>David, 
>>>
>>>Unlike Rin,  I am quite happy to accepts Amazon's definition of 
>>>Steam's ... "authentication"  process of locking a game purchase to
>>>an unchangeable on-line account, access to which is REQUIRED to
>>>install (or re-install) the game. Amazon labels it Steam-DRM, putting
>>>it in the same category as Ubisoft's UPlay, Origin and Games for
>>>Windows all intended to inhibit the sale or re-distribution of PC
>>>games. In all these cases, to move the game to a party other than the
>>>original purchaser, the umbilically attached account must be
>>>transferred as well, and all the EULAs for these schemes specifically
>>>prohibit the transfers of the associated account.
>>>
>>>There are some interesting cases wending their ways slowly through the
>>>US courts with regard to the disposal of 'virtual assets' belonging to
>>>a decesed person. The argument that such assets die with the owner
>>>will not hold water.. the EFF and others are beginning  to take an
>>>active interest.  The most interesting issues will arise if some of
>>>the assets are to be divided between heirs and they happen to be
>>>authentication-attached to one on-line account. 
>>>
>>>John Lewis
>>
>>But do you realize that the "Steam-DRM" in the case you've just
>>described, regardless of how it is described by Amazon, is imposed by
>>the publisher of the game, and not Valve?  They are specifically using
>>a feature that is available to them on Steam that will lock their CD
>>to that account.  *Steam does not require this for all games*.
>>
>>That's what I mean by Steam's only mandate is authentication, not
>>authorization (or DRM).  
>>
>>Not all games on Amazon that are Steam-enabled use the term
>>"Steam-DRM", and you seem to be under the impression they do.  Far Cry
>>3, for example, is available on Amazon with Steam-DRM as a purchase
>>option, as opposed to using Uplay DRM.  It's a simple choice they are
>>providing the consumer, you don't have to choose it.
>>
>
>The retail box version of Far Cry3 uses UPlay only, the download
>version have Steam-DRM PLUS Uplay. In the case of Far Cry 3 the  only
>'advantage' of the additional Steam-DRM ( er, "authentication") is the
>auto-updates.

Stop right there. 

 If, after I spent the time to explain what I did in my last post,
you're still too daft to understand the difference between Steamworks
DRM and authentication and that they are two different things, then as
far as I'm concerned you can just continue stressing over your
misaligned obsessions and stand by as others mock your inaccurate
beliefs; you've wasted enough of everyone's time already.

If, for some reason, you should decide to pull your head out of your
ass, there is a page here that will helps shed light on the
differences between play Steam authentication (what all Steam games
have) and Steamworks DRM (which some games have, depending on whether
the game company, i.e. Bethesda in prior example, chooses to
implement).

https://partner.steamgames.com/documentation/

On 26/03/2013 1:38 AM, Peter Huebner wrote:
> In article <kir0gb$95d$1...@dont-email.me>, dal...@cs.queensu.ca says...
>>
>> It has been many moons since I used a CD-key game so I have forgotten
>> most details. If I recall correctly you'd install the game, but it
>> wouldn't work until you typed in the CD key; the installed game only
>> enabled itself for use if it decided the long string of characters was a
>> valid key. What was it that prevented someone from using the same key on
>> different machines? Online registration? CD key had to match something
>> in the data burned into the CD itself and CD had to be in the drive?
>> something else? If you required online registration of a CD key, then
>> surely that was authentication. If not -- what was it that prevented
>> somebody from using the same key on different machines?
>
>
> I used one yesterday. Installed SE5 on my laptop, typed in the long-
> winded cd key and that was it. NO online validatin' (how, the company's
> gone), no The CD Must Be In The Drive nuissance...
>
> Not all of them are like that of course.
>
> I also installed Fallout 1 at the same time. No shagging around with CD
> keys or anything else there. Interplay was always good like that. One
> reason I often bought games off them.
>
> -P.
>

OK, so to be clear, does that mean you could have installed the software 
on a different computer using the same CD key? So you just have to have 
the CD in your posession long enough to install the program and type in 
the key?

On Tue, 26 Mar 2013 17:23:33 -0400, David Lamb <dal...@cs.queensu.ca>
wrote:

>On 26/03/2013 1:38 AM, Peter Huebner wrote:
>> In article <kir0gb$95d$1...@dont-email.me>, dal...@cs.queensu.ca says...
>>>
>>> It has been many moons since I used a CD-key game so I have forgotten
>>> most details. If I recall correctly you'd install the game, but it
>>> wouldn't work until you typed in the CD key; the installed game only
>>> enabled itself for use if it decided the long string of characters was a
>>> valid key. What was it that prevented someone from using the same key on
>>> different machines? Online registration? CD key had to match something
>>> in the data burned into the CD itself and CD had to be in the drive?
>>> something else? If you required online registration of a CD key, then
>>> surely that was authentication. If not -- what was it that prevented
>>> somebody from using the same key on different machines?
>>
>>
>> I used one yesterday. Installed SE5 on my laptop, typed in the long-
>> winded cd key and that was it. NO online validatin' (how, the company's
>> gone), no The CD Must Be In The Drive nuissance...
>>
>> Not all of them are like that of course.
>>
>> I also installed Fallout 1 at the same time. No shagging around with CD
>> keys or anything else there. Interplay was always good like that. One
>> reason I often bought games off them.
>>
>> -P.
>>
>
>OK, so to be clear, does that mean you could have installed the software 
>on a different computer using the same CD key? So you just have to have 
>the CD in your posession long enough to install the program and type in 
>the key?
>

fyi: FO1 and FO2 are both available for purchase from GOG.com  totally
DRM/CD-key free. 

John Lewis