🚀 go-pugleaf

Dimensional Traveler <dtr...@sonic.net> looked up from reading the
entrails of the porn spammer to utter  "The Augury is good, the signs
say:

>On 2/16/2013 12:33 PM, Xocyll wrote:
>> "Trimble Bracegirdle" <no-spam@never.spam> looked up from reading the
>> entrails of the porn spammer to utter  "The Augury is good, the signs
>> say:
>>
>>> I suspect that warrior is one of the games Randomly generated elements.
>>> She was entirely on her own with no connection to any event.
>>>
>>> Tho its sounds as though that horse in your game has a bug.
>>>
>>> Yes I hate the 'sudden' can't go that way invisible walls .
>>> Shows a lack of imagination from the designers.
>>> That far South-East arch is so distinctive that I suspect it was the
>>> original
>>> planned entrance for Dawngaurd which logically should be
>>> visible beyond it to the east but is not.
>>>
>>> Its possible to go past that gate into the landscape beyond with the correct
>>> Console Commands. Just sort of big & empty landscape.
>>>
>>> I'm going to try to swim from the very far North East to see if its possible
>>> to get to
>>> Dragonborns Solstheim that way.
>>> I did that in Morrowind as a useful way to build up an extra level or two.
>>> There we could swim & swim & etc. indefinitely with the Day/Night cycle &
>>> varying Water Creatures . I don't think Morrowind has any invisible walls.
>>>
>>> IMO the Elder Scrolls games have always been mean & illogical re. theft .
>>> If our Hero is attacked then we should be 'allowed' to keep the
>>> property of the attacker AND there horse as ours.
>>
>> No they haven't.
>>
>> That started with Morrowind, where if you stole, for instance a Soul
>> Gem, completely undetected, not only did someone on the other side of
>> the island (or in the 2 addons) instantly know it was stolen, all soul
>> gems of that type became flagged as stolen.
>>
>> However in Daggerfall you could steal to your heart's content and easily
>> sell the stuff.
>> I looted entire shops at night (required the cart), then waited until
>> morning and sold the contents back to the shop owner in Daggerfall.
>>
>> Of course if you got _caught_ stealing or attacking or picking a lock
>> the guards would swarm on you like you'd just kicked over a Guard-hive.
>>
>> Pretty sure it was like that in Arena as well, but it's been so long
>> since I've played that I can't say for sure.
>>
>>
>> Morrowind is where the unrealistic morality/property rights got bolted
>> onto the game.
>>
>> Maybe it's as simple as "yeah you were attacked and defended yourself,
>> but that doesn't make your attacker's gear and horse yours, it belongs
>> to his/her heirs now."
>> But that relative moralism belongs in Ultima, not the Elder Scrolls.
>> Your and my attitude is simply "she attacked me, she dies, all her stuff
>> is mine now as a penalty for her unwarranted attack."
>>
>> If they wanted to do this kind of thing properly, they make things like
>> horses of randomly spawned warriors recognized as that warrior's by a
>> few NPCs in the game - the guy who sold it to her, her friends, etc.
>> They and they alone would recognize that the horse was "stolen".
>>
>> Ever wonder if this kind of idiotic stuff is a kind of DRM brainwashing
>> trial?
>> It can't be come yours because you took it or found it or got it by
>> killing someone who attacked you, only if it was sold to you.
>> A subtle little bit of "property rights" propaganda.
>>
>No, it was simply a way of keeping the amount of programming necessary 
>down to somewhere in the neighborhood of what there was time and money 
>for.  The constant addition and tinkering with features like this is one 
>of the things that keeps a lot of vanity game projects from ever being 
>finished.

How do you figure that?

It's MORE programming than was involved in Daggerfall and before where
items were NOT flagged as stolen.  
You try to steal and get caught by the guards, they take it back and
fine you/jail you.
If you got away with the theft there was no way to tell it was stolen,
unlike in Morrowind on when the entire world can tell at a glance that
it's stolen.

The Elder Scrolls aren't vanity games so that's a bogus comparison and
they generally aren't rushed out the door. The Parent company lets them
finish the game before it's released and doesn't really consider or care
what other companies are doing (then again there really isn't anyone
else making game like the Elder Scrolls series anymore.)

The point I was making about the subtle little bit of "property rights"
propaganda is that the early games were realistic in that if you got
away with the theft, the stuff was yours.
You might get caught stealing it, but still manage to get away from the
guards.  You couldn't sell it to the guy you stole it from generally,
but someone in another town or city, no problem.

But Morrowind on, anything but BUYING an item flagged it as stolen and
also glitch flagged (I'm assuming it's a glitch) everything else of that
type as stolen goods too. And EVERYONE in the game world knew instantly
that it was stolen - and that's just bullshit.

Totally unrealistic, but not really that far out from the way the DRM
folks seem to think of "inalienable property rights" - you buy from them
and they'll let you use it for a while - you can't steal it, or borrow
it, or buy it second hand or anything else and be counted as a "legit
user" in their books.
That's how this seems to be in the later games.
If you steal it, it's stolen goods.  Ok fair enough.
If you fight a bandit and loot his corpse, it's all stolen goods.
If you find the lost mine of whozit and find a sword in it buried for
500+ years - it's stolen goods.
A dragon flew over the village and burned it to the ground killing
everyone and there is no heir to the goods anywhere.  Take it and, ding,
it's stolen goods.

This magical idea that no matter what, someone somewhere owns those
goods and has a right to them and you don't no matter what the
circumstances.

All I'm saying is that if they're going to try and put in that crap,
they might as well do it in a way that's at least remotely plausible
instead of the "the item flashes bright red and screams at everyone in
earshot that it's been stolen" that's almost what they've put in now.

Just how is it you can tell a stolen wheel of cheese from a purchased
one? or a loaf of bread?  or a gold coin?  or a horse?
Ok the horse would come with a receipt of some kind - but not the other
things.

So how on earth could anyone tell that the loaf of bread you're trying
to sell, with no identifying marks whatsoever, wasn't purchased by you
but was instead looted from the corpse of a Bandit who tried to murder
you deep in cave in the wilderness with no witnesses?

That's just bad programming and they'd have been better to leave it the
way it was in Daggerfall and before.

Xocyll
-- 
I don't particularly want you to FOAD, myself. You'll be more of 
a cautionary example if you'll FO And Get Chronically, Incurably, 
Painfully, Progressively, Expensively, Debilitatingly Ill. So 
FOAGCIPPEDI. -- Mike Andrews responding to an idiot in asr