🚀 go-pugleaf

<jall...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:1109878534.812129.186690@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Can someone post a list of the Top 50 PC Games of all time as listed in
> the Feb 2005 issue of PC Gamer?
>
> I had the issue, but now I don't. I briefly remember some of them:
>
> 1) Half Life
> 2) Doom
3   Civ 2
4   HL 2
5   Warcraft 2  (I see a pattern here)
6   Diablo
7   StarCraft
8   X-Com
9   BattleField
10  Fallout
11  Baldur's Gate
12  GTA 3
13   Star Wars Tie Fighter
14   Ghost Recon
15   Duke Nukem 3D
16   Diablo 2   (the twos are winning)
17  Command and Conquer
18  FarCry
19  Star Wars KotOR
20  Call of Duty
21  Star Wars Jedi Dark Forces 2  (the twos are lapping everyone)
22  Rainbow 6
23  The Sims
24  EverQuest
25  Heros of Might and Magic 3
26  Quake
27 Dues Ex
28  Need for Speed Porsche
29  SimCity 2000
30  Unreal Tournament 2004
31  Mechwarrior 2   (the twos are now celebrating in the end zone)
32  Ultima IV   (what the heck is a 4 doing in here?)
33   Total Annihilation
35   Neverwinter Nights
36  Rise of Nation
37  Tomb Raider
38  Beavis & Butthead in Virtual Stupidity
39  System Shock 2  (every game should just come out with a 2 behind it)
40  IL2 Sturmovik
41  Max Payne
42  Panzer General
43  High Heat Baseball 2002
44  Master of Orion
45 Sam and Max hit the Road
46  HomeWorld
47  Worms Armageddon
48  Wing Cmdr 3
49  The Secret of Monkey Island
50  Freedom Force

Hope this helps.

In article <p4LVd.34399$Qz1....@fe2.texas.rr.com>, OldDog wrote:
> 
><jall...@cox.net> wrote in message
> news:1109878534.812129.186690@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> Can someone post a list of the Top 50 PC Games of all time as listed in
>> the Feb 2005 issue of PC Gamer?
>>
>> I had the issue, but now I don't. I briefly remember some of them:
>>
>> 1) Half Life
>> 2) Doom
> 3   Civ 2
> 4   HL 2
> 5   Warcraft 2  (I see a pattern here)
> 6   Diablo

Huh. Almost all the classic classics have dropped off the board,
and a lot of successful franchises have a representative for no
good reason. Civilization was better then Civ 2, and should have
been in it's place.

> 7   StarCraft
> 8   X-Com
> 9   BattleField
> 10  Fallout
> 11  Baldur's Gate
> 12  GTA 3
> 13   Star Wars Tie Fighter

This is one of the few sequels that really was a whole lot better
than the ones that came first.

> 14   Ghost Recon

What's that?

> 15   Duke Nukem 3D
> 16   Diablo 2   (the twos are winning)
> 17  Command and Conquer
> 18  FarCry

What's that?

> 19  Star Wars KotOR
> 20  Call of Duty
> 21  Star Wars Jedi Dark Forces 2  (the twos are lapping everyone)
> 22  Rainbow 6
> 23  The Sims
> 24  EverQuest
> 25  Heros of Might and Magic 3
> 26  Quake
> 27 Dues Ex

What's that?

> 28  Need for Speed Porsche
> 29  SimCity 2000
> 30  Unreal Tournament 2004
> 31  Mechwarrior 2   (the twos are now celebrating in the end zone)

A great, great classic. Nowhere near as good as lots of stuff
from that time period that didn't make the list.

> 32  Ultima IV   (what the heck is a 4 doing in here?)

Hmmm. I believe it's the oldest remaining game on the list. Sad.

Great game, though.

> 33   Total Annihilation
> 35   Neverwinter Nights

Wah?

> 36  Rise of Nation

Huh?

> 37  Tomb Raider

Gah?

> 38  Beavis & Butthead in Virtual Stupidity

Duh?

> 39  System Shock 2  (every game should just come out with a 2 behind it)
> 40  IL2 Sturmovik

Umm?

> 41  Max Payne

Harg?

> 42  Panzer General
> 43  High Heat Baseball 2002
> 44  Master of Orion
> 45 Sam and Max hit the Road
> 46  HomeWorld
> 47  Worms Armageddon
> 48  Wing Cmdr 3
> 49  The Secret of Monkey Island
> 50  Freedom Force

Doowah?

> Hope this helps.

Yes. PC Gamer still sucks. It's good to know.

-- 
Neil Cerutti

OldDog wrote:
> <jall...@cox.net> wrote in message
> news:1109878534.812129.186690@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> 
>>Can someone post a list of the Top 50 PC Games of all time as listed in
>>the Feb 2005 issue of PC Gamer?
>>
>>I had the issue, but now I don't. I briefly remember some of them:
>>
>>1) Half Life
>>2) Doom
> 
> 3   Civ 2
> 4   HL 2
> 5   Warcraft 2  (I see a pattern here)
> 6   Diablo
> 7   StarCraft
> 8   X-Com
> 9   BattleField
> 10  Fallout
> 11  Baldur's Gate
> 12  GTA 3
> 13   Star Wars Tie Fighter
> 14   Ghost Recon
> 15   Duke Nukem 3D
> 16   Diablo 2   (the twos are winning)
> 17  Command and Conquer
> 18  FarCry
> 19  Star Wars KotOR
> 20  Call of Duty
> 21  Star Wars Jedi Dark Forces 2  (the twos are lapping everyone)
> 22  Rainbow 6
> 23  The Sims
> 24  EverQuest
> 25  Heros of Might and Magic 3
> 26  Quake
> 27 Dues Ex
> 28  Need for Speed Porsche
> 29  SimCity 2000
> 30  Unreal Tournament 2004
> 31  Mechwarrior 2   (the twos are now celebrating in the end zone)
> 32  Ultima IV   (what the heck is a 4 doing in here?)
> 33   Total Annihilation
> 35   Neverwinter Nights
> 36  Rise of Nation
> 37  Tomb Raider
> 38  Beavis & Butthead in Virtual Stupidity
> 39  System Shock 2  (every game should just come out with a 2 behind it)
> 40  IL2 Sturmovik
> 41  Max Payne
> 42  Panzer General
> 43  High Heat Baseball 2002
> 44  Master of Orion
> 45 Sam and Max hit the Road
> 46  HomeWorld
> 47  Worms Armageddon
> 48  Wing Cmdr 3
> 49  The Secret of Monkey Island
> 50  Freedom Force
> 
> Hope this helps.
> 
> 
A top 50 list without Morrowind?  I'm sure "Beavis & Butthead in Virtual 
Stupidity" is better than Morrowind.  Yeah....ok....

"ThE_AnArKrIsT" <ThE_An...@worldcom.net> wrote in message
news:yMLVd.16150$hU7.12968@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com...
<snip> >
> A top 50 list without Morrowind?  I'm sure "Beavis & Butthead in Virtual
> Stupidity" is better than Morrowind.  Yeah....ok....

Or just go here and use this as another top list.

http://www.metacritic.com/games/pc/scores/

A lot of the games from PCGamer are in the top 50;   some just different
spots.

ThE_AnArKrIsT wrote in
news:yMLVd.16150$hU7....@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com: 

> A top 50 list without Morrowind?  I'm sure "Beavis & Butthead in
> Virtual Stupidity" is better than Morrowind.  Yeah....ok....

I notice that Grim Fandango is also missing, which is another great 
oversight. Or what about the original Adventure? Or Myst? Or Tetris? I 
could mention many more that deserve to be on such a list.

I don't want to claim that I'd do better putting together a list of the 
top 50 games of all time. Any such attempt is guaranteed to get a lot 
of critisism, but I still think that list looks strange.

Rikard
(Follow-ups set to .adventure)

Rikard Peterson <trumg...@bigfoot.com> writes:

> I notice that Grim Fandango is also missing, which is another great 
> oversight. Or what about the original Adventure? Or Myst? Or Tetris? I 
> could mention many more that deserve to be on such a list.

I think there's a tendency, not just in games, to have current titles
show up in the "top" lists that are based on fan votes or popularity.
Partly it's because those are still fresh in people's minds, but
also because there are a lot of people who firmly believe that newer
is better.

Gene Siskel was on the radio today regarding his book about great
movies, and one of his judgements about what makes a movie great is
whether you would feel bad if you could never see a certain movie ever
again.  The same could be true for computer games.  I wouldn't shed
a tear if I never played KOTOR again, but I'd be disappointed if I
could never manage to get Grim Fandango or Planescape to work in the
future.

-- 
Darin Johnson
    "Look here.  There's a crop circle in my ficus!"  -- The Tick

On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 23:44:12 GMT, Darin Johnson <darin_@_usa_._net>
wrote:

>Rikard Peterson <trumg...@bigfoot.com> writes:
>
>> I notice that Grim Fandango is also missing, which is another great 
>> oversight. Or what about the original Adventure? Or Myst? Or Tetris? I 
>> could mention many more that deserve to be on such a list.
>
>I think there's a tendency, not just in games, to have current titles
>show up in the "top" lists that are based on fan votes or popularity.
>Partly it's because those are still fresh in people's minds, but
>also because there are a lot of people who firmly believe that newer
>is better.
>
>Gene Siskel was on the radio today regarding his book about great
>movies, and one of his judgements about what makes a movie great is
>whether you would feel bad if you could never see a certain movie ever
>again.  The same could be true for computer games.  I wouldn't shed
>a tear if I never played KOTOR again, but I'd be disappointed if I
>could never manage to get Grim Fandango or Planescape to work in the
>future.
>

A truly excellent way of assessing the priorities in one's own game 
collection when needing to prune it... and the associated hardware
(PC, console etc ). For example, I have kept quite a few classic
Amiga games but I also still have a couple of machines that will
run them.... an A500 and A1200 do not take up much space at all.

John Lewis


>-- 
>Darin Johnson
>    "Look here.  There's a crop circle in my ficus!"  -- The Tick

"OldDog" <OldDog@city.pound> wrote in news:p4LVd.34399$Qz1.15276
@fe2.texas.rr.com:

> 
> <jall...@cox.net> wrote in message
> news:1109878534.812129.186690@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> Can someone post a list of the Top 50 PC Games of all time as listed in
>> the Feb 2005 issue of PC Gamer?
>>
>> I had the issue, but now I don't. I briefly remember some of them:
>>
>> 1) Half Life
>> 2) Doom
> 3   Civ 2
> 4   HL 2

HL 2 should be on top of "most over-hyped, overrated game of all time".
It looks good, the physics are impressing but how boooooring that game was!
It reminds me of ancient text adventure games where you have solve some 
contrived puzzles to progress.

C

Darin Johnson wrote:

> Gene Siskel was on the radio today..

Gene Siskel's been dead for five years. You must mean Roger Ebert.

Great! Thanks, OldDog.

I should have known the list would start a controversy though. My bad.


OldDog wrote:
> <jall...@cox.net> wrote in message
> news:1109878534.812129.186690@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > Can someone post a list of the Top 50 PC Games of all time as
listed in
> > the Feb 2005 issue of PC Gamer?
> >
> > I had the issue, but now I don't. I briefly remember some of them:
> >
> > 1) Half Life
> > 2) Doom
> 3   Civ 2
> 4   HL 2
> 5   Warcraft 2  (I see a pattern here)
> 6   Diablo
> 7   StarCraft
> 8   X-Com
> 9   BattleField
> 10  Fallout
> 11  Baldur's Gate
> 12  GTA 3
> 13   Star Wars Tie Fighter
> 14   Ghost Recon
> 15   Duke Nukem 3D
> 16   Diablo 2   (the twos are winning)
> 17  Command and Conquer
> 18  FarCry
> 19  Star Wars KotOR
> 20  Call of Duty
> 21  Star Wars Jedi Dark Forces 2  (the twos are lapping everyone)
> 22  Rainbow 6
> 23  The Sims
> 24  EverQuest
> 25  Heros of Might and Magic 3
> 26  Quake
> 27 Dues Ex
> 28  Need for Speed Porsche
> 29  SimCity 2000
> 30  Unreal Tournament 2004
> 31  Mechwarrior 2   (the twos are now celebrating in the end zone)
> 32  Ultima IV   (what the heck is a 4 doing in here?)
> 33   Total Annihilation
> 35   Neverwinter Nights
> 36  Rise of Nation
> 37  Tomb Raider
> 38  Beavis & Butthead in Virtual Stupidity
> 39  System Shock 2  (every game should just come out with a 2 behind
it)
> 40  IL2 Sturmovik
> 41  Max Payne
> 42  Panzer General
> 43  High Heat Baseball 2002
> 44  Master of Orion
> 45 Sam and Max hit the Road
> 46  HomeWorld
> 47  Worms Armageddon
> 48  Wing Cmdr 3
> 49  The Secret of Monkey Island
> 50  Freedom Force
> 
> Hope this helps.

>> Gene Siskel was on the radio today..
>
> Gene Siskel's been dead for five years. You must mean Roger Ebert.

    The fat one, not the bald one.  Or he could mean the sidekick w/hair, 
Roeper.

rms 

"Hank the Rapper" <xflo...@REMOVEyahoo.com> writes:

> > Gene Siskel was on the radio today..
> 
> Gene Siskel's been dead for five years. You must mean Roger Ebert.

That explains the static I was hearing.

-- 
Darin Johnson
    "Floyd here now!"

On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 21:16:25 GMT, Darin Johnson <darin_@_usa_._net>
wrote:


>That explains the static I was hearing.

Whas it a thumbs up type of static or thumbs down?

What were you THINKING?!??!?!   ;)


<jall...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:1109948905.384403.103300@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Great! Thanks, OldDog.
>
> I should have known the list would start a controversy though. My bad.
>
>
> OldDog wrote:
> > <jall...@cox.net> wrote in message
> > news:1109878534.812129.186690@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > > Can someone post a list of the Top 50 PC Games of all time as
> listed in
> > > the Feb 2005 issue of PC Gamer?
> > >
> > > I had the issue, but now I don't. I briefly remember some of them:
> > >
> > > 1) Half Life
> > > 2) Doom
> > 3   Civ 2
> > 4   HL 2
> > 5   Warcraft 2  (I see a pattern here)
> > 6   Diablo
> > 7   StarCraft
> > 8   X-Com
> > 9   BattleField
> > 10  Fallout
> > 11  Baldur's Gate
> > 12  GTA 3
> > 13   Star Wars Tie Fighter
> > 14   Ghost Recon
> > 15   Duke Nukem 3D
> > 16   Diablo 2   (the twos are winning)
> > 17  Command and Conquer
> > 18  FarCry
> > 19  Star Wars KotOR
> > 20  Call of Duty
> > 21  Star Wars Jedi Dark Forces 2  (the twos are lapping everyone)
> > 22  Rainbow 6
> > 23  The Sims
> > 24  EverQuest
> > 25  Heros of Might and Magic 3
> > 26  Quake
> > 27 Dues Ex
> > 28  Need for Speed Porsche
> > 29  SimCity 2000
> > 30  Unreal Tournament 2004
> > 31  Mechwarrior 2   (the twos are now celebrating in the end zone)
> > 32  Ultima IV   (what the heck is a 4 doing in here?)
> > 33   Total Annihilation
> > 35   Neverwinter Nights
> > 36  Rise of Nation
> > 37  Tomb Raider
> > 38  Beavis & Butthead in Virtual Stupidity
> > 39  System Shock 2  (every game should just come out with a 2 behind
> it)
> > 40  IL2 Sturmovik
> > 41  Max Payne
> > 42  Panzer General
> > 43  High Heat Baseball 2002
> > 44  Master of Orion
> > 45 Sam and Max hit the Road
> > 46  HomeWorld
> > 47  Worms Armageddon
> > 48  Wing Cmdr 3
> > 49  The Secret of Monkey Island
> > 50  Freedom Force
> >
> > Hope this helps.
>

ThE_AnArKrIsT wrote:

> A top 50 list without Morrowind?  I'm sure "Beavis & Butthead in
Virtual
> Stupidity" is better than Morrowind.  Yeah....ok....

Not everybody liked Morrowind, I thought it was shit.

flightle...@lycos.com wrote:
> ThE_AnArKrIsT wrote:
> 
> 
>>A top 50 list without Morrowind?  I'm sure "Beavis & Butthead in
> 
> Virtual
> 
>>Stupidity" is better than Morrowind.  Yeah....ok....
> 
> 
> Not everybody liked Morrowind, I thought it was shit.
> 
Well I guess that's what you get for thinking.  I suppose that you 
figured "Virtual Stupidity" was better?

"OldDog" <OldDog@city.pound> once tried to test me with:

> 
><jall...@cox.net> wrote in message
> news:1109878534.812129.186690@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> Can someone post a list of the Top 50 PC Games of all time as listed in
>> the Feb 2005 issue of PC Gamer?
>>
>> I had the issue, but now I don't. I briefly remember some of them:
>>
>> 1) Half Life
>> 2) Doom
> 3   Civ 2
> 4   HL 2

OK, well HL2 is heads and shoulders above HL1, so they fucked this list up 
right there. And DOOM? Please. It was good "in its day" but by far there 
have been better games. 


I think the problem with these "50 best of all time" lists is that they 
want to use it to "honor" really old games, even if those really old games 
have been completely superceeded by their modern game equivalents. So you 
end up with a mix of new and old games that is essentially just random 
because almost NONE of the old games could actually compete in the current 
market, which to me means they aren't that frigggin' great. Even the 
mediocre games of 2004 beat most of the great games of 1993.

> 5   Warcraft 2  (I see a pattern here)

The fact that they put this ahead of Starcraft is boggling. By FAR 
Starcraft kicked WC2's shiny little ass.

> 6   Diablo

Diablo II was better in every single way. It should be here (or higher) not 
down below.

> 7   StarCraft
> 8   X-Com
> 9   BattleField
> 10  Fallout
> 11  Baldur's Gate

Most BG fans would argue that BG2 is way more deserving than BG1.

> 12  GTA 3

This game belongs on the list. And it's about ranked correctly. The GTA3 
was far better than Vice City IMHO, and it beat the fun but not superb GTA1 
and GTA2.

> 13   Star Wars Tie Fighter
> 14   Ghost Recon
> 15   Duke Nukem 3D
> 16   Diablo 2   (the twos are winning)
> 17  Command and Conquer
> 18  FarCry

Wow. I'm surprised FarCry is on the top 50 of all time. I bet we don't even 
remember this game in 5 years.

> 19  Star Wars KotOR
> 20  Call of Duty
> 21  Star Wars Jedi Dark Forces 2  (the twos are lapping everyone)
> 22  Rainbow 6
> 23  The Sims

WTF?! Did they actually PLAY this mindless drivel? For the life of me I can 
not see how this game is so popular. I guess I 'just don't get it.'

> 24  EverQuest

Deserves to be in the top 5. Right under World of Warcraft.

> 25  Heros of Might and Magic 3
> 26  Quake
> 27 Dues Ex
> 28  Need for Speed Porsche
> 29  SimCity 2000
> 30  Unreal Tournament 2004
> 31  Mechwarrior 2   (the twos are now celebrating in the end zone)

Have to admit this version of the franchise was my favorite. The newer ones 
look nicer but I logged way more hours in MW2.

> 32  Ultima IV   (what the heck is a 4 doing in here?)

Uh, did you play it? This is indeed a case of "honoring the dead" but 
Ultima 4 was the game that essentially created the modern CRPG. By "modern" 
I mean an RPG that actually had choices and had a story and offered moral 
choices for the character. I would have picked Ultima 7, which did Ultima 4 
but did it even better.

> 33   Total Annihilation
> 35   Neverwinter Nights
> 36  Rise of Nation
> 37  Tomb Raider
> 38  Beavis & Butthead in Virtual Stupidity

??? Boggle ????

> 39  System Shock 2  (every game should just come out with a 2 behind it)

It was a great game. Superb even. But it had some major balancing issues 
that didn't get resolved until a patch.

> 40  IL2 Sturmovik
> 41  Max Payne

Very fun, but top 50 ever? Not sure I'd rank it that high.

> 42  Panzer General
> 43  High Heat Baseball 2002

No sports games deserve to be on this list. Because I say so.

> 44  Master of Orion

MOO2 was better. And also MOO2 should go in the top 10.

> 45 Sam and Max hit the Road
> 46  HomeWorld
> 47  Worms Armageddon
> 48  Wing Cmdr 3
> 49  The Secret of Monkey Island
> 50  Freedom Force



-- 

Knight37

The gene pool could use a little chlorine.

Darin Johnson <darin_@_usa_._net> once tried to test me with:

> Rikard Peterson <trumg...@bigfoot.com> writes:
> 
>> I notice that Grim Fandango is also missing, which is another great 
>> oversight. Or what about the original Adventure? Or Myst? Or Tetris? I 
>> could mention many more that deserve to be on such a list.
> 
> I think there's a tendency, not just in games, to have current titles
> show up in the "top" lists that are based on fan votes or popularity.
> Partly it's because those are still fresh in people's minds, but
> also because there are a lot of people who firmly believe that newer
> is better.

Newer usually IS better. In gaming. Because every new game at least has the 
opportunity to see what worked before and what didn't. And plus they have 
the technological edge.

> Gene Siskel was on the radio today regarding his book about great
> movies, and one of his judgements about what makes a movie great is
> whether you would feel bad if you could never see a certain movie ever
> again.  The same could be true for computer games.  I wouldn't shed
> a tear if I never played KOTOR again, but I'd be disappointed if I
> could never manage to get Grim Fandango or Planescape to work in the
> future.

I disagree. Games aren't like movies. Movies aren't so limited by 
technology. I might have really thought that Castle Wolfenstein was 'teh 
shit' back in the day, but now it would suck ass.

-- 

Knight37

The gene pool could use a little chlorine.

> OK, well HL2 is heads and shoulders above HL1, so they fucked this list up 
> right there. And DOOM? Please. It was good "in its day" but by far there 
> have been better games. 

> I think the problem with these "50 best of all time" lists is that they 
> want to use it to "honor" really old games, even if those really old games 
> have been completely superceeded by their modern game equivalents. 

That's why I like the lists that will have *one* entry on the top 50 for 
the entire series of games.  So for example, the PC Gamer list would 
have "Hl series" as number 1 rather than making a destinction between 
the two.  That way you avoid the problem you mentioned with games that 
are older and have been outdone by their sequels.

>>6   Diablo
> 
> 
> Diablo II was better in every single way. It should be here (or higher) not 
> down below.
> 

Right.  So why not just give one place to "Diablo series" and be done 
with it?

>>18  FarCry
> 
> 
> Wow. I'm surprised FarCry is on the top 50 of all time. I bet we don't even 
> remember this game in 5 years.
>

Yeah I agree it's out of place here.  Unless your name is "John Lewis", 
then I guess it's #1 on the list, right?

>>23  The Sims
> 
> 
> WTF?! Did they actually PLAY this mindless drivel? For the life of me I can 
> not see how this game is so popular. I guess I 'just don't get it.'
>

I never liked it either.  I guess it's popular for the same reason that 
"Survivor" TV show (and all those new "reality" shows for that matter) 
are popular.  Never interested me in the slightest.  There's just no 
*game* there...

>>43  High Heat Baseball 2002
> 
> 
> No sports games deserve to be on this list. Because I say so.
> 

High Heat is the only sports game I'd put on my list.  It was just that 
good.  Some people would put Earl Weaver there instead, I'm sure.

Knight37 <knig...@email.com> writes:

> Newer usually IS better. In gaming. Because every new game at least has the 
> opportunity to see what worked before and what didn't. And plus they have 
> the technological edge.

But if you focus on the technology, then you can miss the good stuff.
If you try to replay a game after five years and it hurts too much to
see the old graphics, then maybe the game wasn't that great to start
with. 

-- 
Darin Johnson
    "You used to be big."
    "I am big.  It's the pictures that got small."

"Knight37" <knig...@email.com> wrote in message
news:Xns960FE5125C68Eknight37m@130.133.1.4...
>
> No sports games deserve to be on this list. Because I say so.

Golf definitely does.

>>>A top 50 list without Morrowind?  I'm sure "Beavis & Butthead in
>>
>> Virtual
>>
>>>Stupidity" is better than Morrowind.  Yeah....ok....
>>
>>
>> Not everybody liked Morrowind, I thought it was shit.
>>
> Well I guess that's what you get for thinking.  I suppose that you figured 
> "Virtual Stupidity" was better?

Not trying to offend anyone but, IMO, I would rather have my teeth pulled 
out with rusty pliers than play "Morrowind".

Beavis and Butthead rule !! 

> Not trying to offend anyone but, IMO, I would rather have my teeth pulled 
> out with rusty pliers than play "Morrowind".
> 
> Beavis and Butthead rule !! 
>

I'm not offended by your opinion because it differs (greatly) from mine. 
  Everyone is entitled to their opinion (at least where I currently post 
from).

Richard A Moore wrote:

>    Being a list along the spectrum of all time we do have to cosider 
> they're historic weight and influence.  If it was this years awards then of
> course new is better.     While I totally agree that starcraft owns Warcraft
> in all aspects and areas(I hold starcraft as one of the only near perfect
> games ever developed), half of starcraft came from Warcraft and the impact
> Warcraft had gamewise/genre wise was different as it created and starcraft
> renovated.     So I can see them giving more weight to cames that cracked the
> mold than to cames that added or even blew open the crack.     For example I
> am playing a Max Payne clone right now just cause its a clone of a cool game
> though its rating is significantly lower becuase its just that, a clone.  Its
> all done that and been there with a few more bells and wistles.  But if Max
> payne hadnt been invented this game would have blown some minds.  So I could
> see Starcraft surpasing Warcraft easily if warcraft was never invented.
<end quote>

Weird logic...how can you have a clone if there is no original? If Max Payne
had never been out, I bet the ppl who wrote the *clone* you are playing (wonder
why there is no name for this clone, huh?) will not have thought of the
features in Max Payne (that made it a deisred target for cloners) in the first
place. Copiers are normally not Innovators.


I wouldn't call Starcraft a clone of Warcraft, but rather a branch of evolution
with better/stronger gene. It's done by the same company, even may be by the
same team (I'm not sure). Would anyone call Red Alert a Command & Conquer
*Clone*? There will be no Starcraft if Warcraft is never "invented" by
Blizzard. If indeed Blizzard have came out with the idea of "Space themed RTS"
first rather than "Medeaval themed RTS", than there will be no Warcraft to
compare with.

Regards.

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------
"Aaaaah yourself!.....Uh, oh-o!"
-Serious 'Second Encounter' Sam-
-------------------------------------------------------------

John Lewis wrote:

> On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 23:44:12 GMT, Darin Johnson <darin_@_usa_._net>
> wrote:
>
>>Gene Siskel was on the radio today regarding his book about great
>>movies, and one of his judgements about what makes a movie great is
>>whether you would feel bad if you could never see a certain movie ever
>>again.  The same could be true for computer games.  I wouldn't shed
>>a tear if I never played KOTOR again, but I'd be disappointed if I
>>could never manage to get Grim Fandango or Planescape to work in the
>>future.
>>
> 
> 
> A truly excellent way of assessing the priorities in one's own game 
> collection when needing to prune it... and the associated hardware
> (PC, console etc ). For example, I have kept quite a few classic
> Amiga games but I also still have a couple of machines that will
> run them.... an A500 and A1200 do not take up much space at all.
> 
> John Lewis

I have A500 in the closet and it's so yellow it matches the coffee 
driven color of my teeth.

Richard A Moore <rmo...@eng.utah.edu> once tried to test me with:

>    Being a list along the spectrum of all time we do have to cosider 
> they're historic weight and influence.  If it was this years awards then 
> of course new is better.
>    While I totally agree that starcraft owns Warcraft in all aspects and 
> areas(I hold starcraft as one of the only near perfect games ever 
> developed), half of starcraft came from Warcraft and the impact Warcraft 
> had gamewise/genre wise was different as it created and starcraft 
> renovated.

That's just my point. A "Top 50 Games of All Time" shouldn't BE about 
"historical weight and influence." If you want to do that kind of a list, 
do a "Top 50 Most Influential Games of All Time". And then, damn straight, 
Warcraft belongs on the list, along with Dune 2, and a bunch of other games 
that weren't mentioned on this list.

>    For example I am playing a Max Payne clone right now just cause its a 
> clone of a cool game though its rating is significantly lower becuase 
> its just that, a clone.  Its all done that and been there with a few 
> more bells and wistles.  But if Max payne hadnt been invented this game 
> would have blown some minds.  So I could see Starcraft surpasing 
> Warcraft easily if warcraft was never invented.

But Starcraft wasn't just a "Warcraft Clone". It was better in every way 
imaginable. It took the RTS genre to a new level.

-- 

Knight37 - http://knightgames.blogspot.com

Once a Gamer, Always a Gamer.

Richard A Moore wrote:
>   Being a list along the spectrum of all time we do have to cosider 
> they're historic weight and influence.  If it was this years awards then 
> of course new is better.

The problem is that it's ambiguous.

"Best at the time of release" or "of greatest historical 
importance/influence" are valid criteria for comparison. So is "just 
plain best, put side by side, nevermind release date". What's not valid 
is randomly mixing the different criteria in the same list; 
unfortunately every last one of these lists does exactly that.

-- 
"Always look on the bright side of life."
To reply by email, replace no.spam with my last name.