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"Kevin Scholl" <kscholl@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:sfadndiWvP8Gf0qiRVn-vg@comcast.com...
>
> Shot wrote:
>
>
> > Small but key point here is the title itself. WCP Gold. Wing Commander
>
> The name of the compilation is largely irrelevant. We're talking about
> the game itself, not the compilation package that came later.


Well I know you are talking about SO, but it sure doesn't help your case
knowing that they packaged the two together as Prophecy Gold. In order to
have a compilation of anything a common thread must be there. In record
sales its the person, Billy Joel's Greatest Hits for example. You can then
focus it even more by saying Billy Joel's 70's hits. Common thread there is
the 70's. Common thread in the Kilrathi Saga were games that involved the
Kilrathi, which were 1,2, and 3. If your going to make a compilation
advertising 101 says get to the point in the title. You would not put
WingCommander4 in "The Kilrathi Saga". You just sum it up, and here the
summery of the compilation is Wing Commander Prophecy Gold Edition. I really
don't think that's an irrelevant point. I can't see why Origin would name
the compilation that if they thought SO was a completely separate game. Its
Wing Commander Prophecy, GOLD. Gold. Yes, you may have been talking about
the game itself, but I'm bringing this into the conversation. I think its a
good point. Don't peg me down as dead set just yet though, I see your points
too so keep reading ;)

>
> > Prophecy Gold Edition. If Origin indeed did market SO as a stand alone
> > product then yes indeed, it WAS false advertising. If you think Origin
is
> > above that, I believe your mistaken. How many people bought Secret
Missions
> > 1 and 2 for Wing1 and SO 1 and 2 for Wing2? I would venture to guess it
was
> > nowhere near the sales of the "parent" game. Im willing to bet Origin
> > planned from the beginning to package this with WCP and sell it. If its
just
> > a add on how many people would have wanted to get it? Die hards yeah,
> > average person no. However you say its a new game from the beginning
then
> > put it in a pretty box in time for Christmas later, and suddenly people
want
> > it because hey "TWO GAMES FOR ONE!". The Kilrathi Saga is a compilation
that
>
> Actually, I'd bet the vast majority of those who got WCSO got it as part
> of the episodic release, downloadable off the 'Net. In fact, many people
> got Prophecy Gold for the sole purpose of the new, vastly better manual.

I do agree with this, I didn't present this to you the way I wanted to. I
agree that the vast majority downloaded the game, however I am just saying
that I bet Origin planned from the beginning to "eventually" put this in a
package with Prophecy and make a couple bucks at least. I mean they did bump
the price right back up there when Gold Edition came out. The person that
already owned Prophecy probably wouldn't buy Gold Edition, but the person
that has not and sees this extra "completely independent game" with this
other completely independent game might be more inclined to buy it because
it would be looked at as two games for one. If you marketed it as "just an
add on" from the beginning then a person might be less inclined to buy the
compilation (although it would be more then just the stand alone Prophecy
game). I bought Prophecy and downloaded SO, so I can't speak of the Gold
manual. Though on a side-note I'm not sure that's a good enough reason to
pay $40 for a game you already have.
>
> > I'm sure would have been renamed the "Wing Commander Saga" had Wing4
been
> > out a little longer. The difference is in the title, straight from
Origin.
> > So if your so willing to take origins side in what they say, then look
at
> > the title. Wing Commander-Secret Missions. Wing Commander2- Special
> > Operations. AND.... Wing Commander Prophecy Gold Edition. Take those and
put
> > it up against Wing Commander the Kilrathi Saga. The difference is in the
> > title. Different conflict you say? Then it should have been named Wing
> > Commander the Nephiliam Saga or something.
>
> WCP Gold came about well after Origin decided to halt the series. It was
> really nothign more than an attempt to squeeze a bit more from the
> franchise. I'd bet that if there had been concrete plans to develop
> another CD-based, FMV game a la Prophecy, we never would have seen WCP
> Gold. Instead, we would have waited until the arc was complete and
> likely seen a Nephilim Saga or something of that nature.


This could be true. I do remember reading at one time that there were plans
for at least 3 more games in the series. However I don't remember when I
read this. It was either right after Prophecy was released or when I saw the
review for SO (which by the way was indeed titled Wing Commander Prophecy SO
in the review and WCPSO or just SO for short). I know WCP Gold came out
after they halted the series but I'm not sure SO itself came out after
Origin axed it. Wasn't it made just a year after the game? If it was then it
was probably in production the same year Prophecy was released. I don't
believe Origin planned to cut the series off THAT soon after it was
released. So my theory that they were giving us something to chew on till
the next installment might still hold up, however you may be right. That
said I myself always WANTED some add ons to these games. I thought it was a
shame after Wing2 they never made any. Don't misread what I say about SO, I
LOVED IT! I'm not saying its a bad thing, im just saying I look at it as an
add on. I don't think that's a bad thing. I smiled when I read about this. I
thought from the beginning that it was an add on and it brought me back to
the Secret Missions and Special Operations of Wing1 and 2. I genuinely liked
the idea of an add on to a newer Wing Commander game.

>
> That all said, your argument is not without some justification, but is
> rather weak. Certainly not enough, IMO, to offset all the other aspects
> which relate to the game being stand-alone.
>
> > Here the reason why I consider this an add on. I consider how I FOUND
this
> > game. It was in a review for a magazine. How was it titled? Wing
Commander
> > Prophecy SO. End of story. Go on the internet and type up SO or Secret
>
> Then you came across a magazine that improperly titled the game. It's
> proper name is "Wing Commander Secret Ops". Nowhere in the proper title
> is Prophecy mentioned.

I will except this. I did note above that I indeed did see it written as
Wing Commander Prophecy Secret Ops and WCPSO for short. However I am willing
to concede that the game itself was not titled this. Which does kill my
point about the main game's title. It does not totally destroy my point on
the compilation title however. So on the main games title you got me, but I
still wouldn't say Origin would never falsely advertise a product.
Technically it is indeed i concede to you a different game. The things you
mentioned are indeed good reasons to call this Wing Commander 6 from a
technical standpoint. However I look at Origin and they too can quote this
stuff. If someone sued them for false advertising they could present what
you presented in court and they would win. I think Origin knew this well.
Its just a little advertising trick. They knew they couldn't get in troubled
for it so why market it as just an add on? But you have to ask yourself,
what did the game designers and people in charge think? Especially the
people in charge. I believe that they thought of this as an add on.
Technically you are right, its different enough to be called a new game...
but come on, that doesn't mean concretely in the "spirit" of things it is.
Just look around the room you are in now. I'm sure you could find a couple
of products that are made by many companies that are very similar. Maybe its
just a coke. Whos against coke? Pepsi. Cherry Coke, Cherry Pepsi, Vanilla
Coke, and Vanilla Pepsi. Coke came out with Vanilla flavor first. It was a
success. Then Pepsi did it. Look on the back and the ingredients are
different indeed. Just enough to get Pepsi off. They stole the idea, Coke
probably stole the idea too, but its different enough to be considered a
different product. In spirit Coke and Pepsi are the same thing. However
technically they are not. Secret Operations is technically a different game,
but I know im not sure if it was in spirit. Its not a bad thing to me
because I like the add on idea. If Origin creates a new Wing Commander and
call its Wing Commander 6 instead of 7, ill except that SO was a stand alone
game. Though you could even technically argue that Prophecy wasn't even Wing
Commander 5 because it wasn't called that. Almost a Privateer move to
distance itself a little.
>
> > Operations or Special Operations and see what you come up with. Then
type in
> > Wing Commander Prophecy Secret Operations (or special im not sure at the
> > moment which word it was) and you will most definitely find what you are
>
> Wrong. I type in "Secret Ops" in Google, and I get links to the official
> site (top spots), and Origin-recognized sites with information about the
> game. I type in "Prophecy Secret Ops", and all I see are non-sanctioned,
> third-party cheat sites, and a few no-name reviews.

Alright, I said that thinking at the time that the official title was WCPSO.
I concede that the "official" title is just SO and so a search would indeed
pull up the official sites.
>
> > looking for. Did Origin stamp the add on label to this game? No. Doesn't
> > mean anything. Just like you they TOO can go into detail about how they
> > tweaked this and tweaked that and say "hey its not the same". Sure its
> > not... The one guys movie comparison is very valid. If this was another
game
> > all together there is NOWAY it would not have included movies. I dont
think
> > its a money issue at all, they would put actors in any new Wing game. It
was
> > a teaser. To get the die hards ready for the next big thing. Which never
>
> I disagree. You can't have FMV in a downloadable game, and THAT was the
> biggest draw to WCSO -- it's episodic, downloadable nature.

I know that you can't have FMV in a downloadable game. I agree that it was a
very nice draw to this game. But it made me believe it was an add on. Again
I didn't think this was a bad thing, its just something I believed. Maybe
just the fact that there is an argument is reason enough to question. You
are right technically, you have great facts to support your opinion. I ask
though, can you find even one person who doubts Prophecy as a stand alone
game to Wing Commander 4? Wing Commander 2 to 1? Or 3 to 2? I don't think
ONE soul would doubt it, and that is the only "clear cut and indisputable"
thing with the title's. I didn't like how you (im sorry if it wasn't you)
approached this topic in the beginning. I believe you said something about
how you didn't believe anyone was arguing about how SO wasn't a stand-alone
game, that the facts proved this wrong. Maybe the facts do prove it wrong,
but at least in the spirit of things just the fact that its questioned by
anyone is enough reason to at least "look" at it and not dismiss it. I
remember a reputable gaming magazine at the time calling Wing4 wing
Commander 3 part 2, even despite the FACT that it was called Wing Commander
"4". You got to look at that. I looked at it. The gaming engine was indeed
the same, but I thought the story was so completely different from Wing3
that it was its own game. Then you had Prophecy which wasn't even called 5
and NO ONE questioned it being a completely separate title. It was obvious
and you didn't have to look into it to find out. If you have to quote things
to prove the game is different then its an add on. Even for Wing4 I didn't
have to quote anything to say it was a different game I just said the story
was completely different and that's it. There are things that are different
about SO but there are things that remind me strikingly of Prophecy and its
story in ways. When you have to defend the fact that its a stand alone
game... then maybe it really isn't one. Just look at that word, "stand
alone". Alone, no comparisons. You have your own little spot and no one is
near it. Just the fact that there are people that say this is an add on
taints the logic of this game standing alone. Kind of deep I guess.
>
> > came. If troubled hadn't occurred and Wing Commander 6 was out a year
after
> > SO was, then I doubt anyone would be questioning this. Wing1 SM1 and 2
were
> > to get the die hards by till Wing2. Wing2 SO 1 and 2 to get them by till
> > Wing3 came out. WCPSO was also a game to get you by until Wing6 came
out. It
> > never came out did it? Have Orgin market what you would consider Wing
> > Commander 7 with no movies... Ship it for 40 bucks and you see what the
> > sales on that sucker is. Origin may not say it, but their actions prove
it.
>
> Sorry, but you offer conjecture, not proof. The key is that Secret
> Missions (WCI) and Special Operations (WCII) absoutely required the
> presence of the parent game on your computer in order to run. This is
> the definition of add-on. WCSO did not require WCP; it was developed
> from the get-go as a stand-alone game.

I know its conjecture. Its all I have to support my opinion because the
facts DO support yours. Doesn't mean im wrong though. I don't believe in
God, and its a fact that there is no proof that a God exists, its all
conjecture. People "guess" that the one little atom that started the big
bang couldn't have been created without a God. Its a guess, its conjecture,
its an opinion based on guesswork. It doesn't make them wrong, and that's an
atheist talking. I am firm believer in always supporting your opinion with
facts. However sometimes you cant do that. My favorite color is red. I do
not know why. I just like the color red. It is a "fact" that "I" think red
is the best color. That's about the only way I can put the word fact in an
opinion about a favorite color. On big things yes, always support it with
facts. You like President Bush, then you support your opinion that he is
good with facts of the things hes done. You think hes a horrible president,
then you support your opinion with facts about the things hes done. That is
"big" thing. I compare this debate on SO being Wing Commander 6 with a
individuals favorite color. Its about "feeling". Its all conjecture. I am
basing my opinion on my gut and then I give you scenarios evolving Origin
and how they felt. I have no idea how they felt, I can only guess. I did
look at the facts though so maybe im not completely horrible here. I looked
at the facts about release dates and a title of their compilation
collection. Look at Origins actions and ask yourself is it beyond a
reasonable doubt that this is a stand-alone game? I think there is a
reasonable doubt so its "for sure". Its not clear cut. There is reason to
doubt what Origin thought this was. Technically speaking this IS a
stand-alone game, your facts support your opinion. I loose there. However I
think I have a STRONG case on if this was in "essence" a stand alone game.
On that front I think I present a very good case. It's a case that cannot be
proven, but a "thinker" none the less I believe.
>
>>
> --
>
> *** Remove the DELETE from my address to reply ***
>
> ======================================================
>   Kevin Scholl                http://www.ksscholl.com/
>   kscholl@comcast.DELETE.net
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