🚀 go-pugleaf

"chocolatemalt" <chocolatemalt@dim=dot=com.invalid> wrote:

> In article <430197a8$0$1162$5402220f@news.sunrise.ch>,
> "Christian Stauffer" <wildcard666@bluewin.ch> wrote:
> 
>> Al level 20 can:
>> - Sap me
>> - Sheep me
>> - CC me (Ice, Stuns, Roots, ...)
> 
> Chances are you'll resist most of this

A level 1 can sheep a level 60 with no chance to resist (at least, I've
never seen a polymorph fail).
Now imagine how this works out with a zerg of 10 characters. Every one
of them can harm me 1x before he has to worry about me.

>> - Heal the level 60 I'm fighting
> 
> Not sure if you're aware of how flagging works on PVE servers, but 
> healing a flagged char also flags you.  The same mechanism can work the 
> same way for a DHK flag system.  Easy solution.

Hrm? I play 1vs1 against another level 60. This level 60 is "DHK"
flagged (according to your rules: he didnt attack a > level 80 player
within the last 30 minutes). When a "DHK" flagged level 40 heals a
"DHK" flagged level 60, his flag won't go off. At least when you want
to implement it like the PvP flag: Healing a not PvP flagged player
doesn't flag you.

>> 10 level 20 can kill me.
> 
> I seriously doubt this... once they take their first hits and become 
> non-DHK, you'd swat them like flies.  An AoE char such as a mage would 
> flatten them like a tornado through a cornfield.  But... even if they 
> did succeed, they'd probably have several dead, and the long non-DHK 
> penalty would make it very painful for them.  I can't see anyone making 
> that work for them.

Doesn't have to make it work for them, and that wasn't my point. My
point is (I use this "charge" example a lot, pardon me) when I stand
in the middle of a zerg and use cleave (<- well, the druids
aequivalent) I hit 2 (or 3) random targets. And I don't see why I get
dishonored because of that.
When I stand between the enemy lines, I don't care who I hit, I don't
care what levels they are, whether I can kill them or not. I just want
to spread chaos, so that the mages have time to take down their targets.

(I'd never have thought that it's possible for a tank to hold aggro
on human players, but the sick thing is: It works perfectly).

> Me too.  I have random mass mayhem at XR in mind.  On rare occasion a 
> group of brave level 30 Alliance will descend on the east gate and draw 
> equivalent level opponents out for battle.  When I see lvl 60 Horde join 
> in and mop up the 30's it makes me ill... a fair and fun fight is 
> ruined.

Pardon me, but a fair fight (like 10xlevel 30 against 10xlevel 30) in
a raid? In a chaotic place like XR? I'm not very surprised this doesn't
work.

>> And yes: Everyone poses a thread there. At least potentially. Whether
>> or not a certain player poses a thread to a certain other player in
>> a certain situation and a certain place can be determined by you and
>> me (maybe), but by an algorithm?
> 
> The algorithm is so simple (DHK flag) that the players still make the 
> choices.

Your idea with the DHK flag has a simple disadvantage: Either you make
it so hard that people get punished without doing anything bad, or you
make it so soft it doesn't do anything in the end.

> Well that's nice.

I _am_ nice. Sometimes.

>> > I have no respect for the players on my server that do this
>> 
>> Neither do I. But I'm not talking about 1vs1. (Please take out a
>> text marker and mark this sentence, it seems quite important)
> 
> I never made that assumption.

Then your thoughts aren't 100% complete :o)

>> The idea to measure "honor" is bullshit. As long as you think about this
>> system as a system that reflects how honorable a player acts, you will
>> be disappointed because of various facts:
>> - To take damage is (at least for me) a much more honorable act than
>>   to kill someone, but it is not yet covered. If I charge into a group
>>   of 10-20 defenders, distract them for a while, and get killed, is this
>>   honorable or not? Why is it more honorable for a mage, who's standing
>>   back and doesn't risk anything, to nuke an enemy char I'm currently
>>   distracting?
>> - Whether an act is honorable or not is so depending on the situation it
>>   can't be judged by an algorithm.
>> - Every system that somehow rewards the players will be abused, e.g.
>>   "honor" points will be farmed. Farming = Honorable act?
>> - Every system that somehow punishes the players will be abused
>>   (That's why it's not implemented and why I am against it)
> 
> Interesting point about being a meatshield distraction and not getting 
> honor.  However, if you do a bunch of damage and your targets later die, 
> you get some honor points.

I do about 0 damage, I just stand there and look like I was easy to kill.
I'll die in the end end get 2 CPs, the mage in the background survives
and gets 200 CP.

> Also, if you're in a group and your act 
> benefits your teammates and kills result, you share the honor.  So the 
> system isn't perfect (non-grouped non-damaging meatshield is SOL) but 
> it's workable.

As a bodycount system: Yes. As a system to measure honorable acts: No.

Why does a level 60 receive more CP in a raid than a level 30 (he does,
because he kills high level players that are worth more CP)? He risks
ways less than a level 30. Why do I, when I charge into enemy lines,
receive far less CP than a mage who's placed 30 yards behind the lines
and doesn't risk anything? Why does a group of five level 60s killing
one lonely level 60 out in the wild receive any CP at all?

Honestly, I don't care about CP, but by all means: It IS a bodycount
system with some _basic_ rules that at least prevent people from
getting CP when killing a low level character. And not even this is
anyway near being accurate, because a level 60 on 20% health that
gets attacked by a fully loaded level 40 should get CP while the
level 40 shouldn't. It doesn't hurt anyone when the level 60 doesn't
get CP out of that encounter, but it does hurt him when he gets a
DHK for defending himself against that coward.

> I would hate Blizzard to scrap the whole honor system 
> due to your exceptions with it.

I have no expectations, because I know a measurement of how honorable
a player behaves is not possible.

> It's exciting, it encourages pvp, it 
> has purpose (special gear), it's neat.  It just needs a little more work.

I'm not suggesting to drop it, I just want to point out it does not
reflect a characters behaviour regarding honor.

> Yep.  From:  http://www.worldofwar.net/guides/pvp.php
> 
> "Additionally, Area of Effect spells will not activate PvP. This means 
> that if a player of the opposing faction with PvP enabled walks into 
> your AoE spell effects while you are fighting monsters, your spell will 
> not damage them and activate PvP for you. If your PvP flag is already 
> on, your AoE spell will damage enemy players (those with PvP enabled) as 
> normal."

Ok, thanks.

>> There are still a lot of examples how to abuse this, for example:
>> Level 60 fights another level 60, a level 40 heals one of them. Bad
>> luck for the level 60 who isn't exploiting the system, because he
>> has the choice of either dying or loosing "honor".
> 
> This is tough if the lvl 40 wasn't flagged prior, but he will be after 
> the heal.

No he isn't, see above/below.

> This mechanism is already in place for pvp-flagging, should 
> be quite simple with a non-DHK flag as well.

That's a different story. You wrote the DHK flag goes off as soon as
I attack a player 20 leves above me. It means that after level 40,
the DHK flag is always on. Which is not bad, because there is no one
who could "gank" when ganking = killing someone > 20 levels beyond
me.
But it also means that _everyone_ can support me with heals, buffs
and debuffs and doesn't loose his DHK flag.

>> But if I do something that wasn't dishonorable and still get
>> punished because the system is wrong or got exploited, I would
>> get pissed. That's not entirely true, as I'm a scout and there's
>> not much I care less about than my bodycount score, but I'd bet
>> a large sum that the PvPers would cry so loud even the Blizzard
>> quality assurance would hear it.
> 
> Blizzard has QA?  Are you spreading rumors?

They have, although we don't know what they do all day. But I'm
sure even they, sitting in the most hidden corners of Blizzards
buildings, will hear complaints when DHKs for players get
implemented :o)

Chris

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