🚀 go-pugleaf

In article <430197a8$0$1162$5402220f@news.sunrise.ch>,
 "Christian Stauffer" <wildcard666@bluewin.ch> wrote:

> Al level 20 can:
> - Sap me
> - Sheep me
> - CC me (Ice, Stuns, Roots, ...)

Chances are you'll resist most of this, but in any case let them throw a 
spell like that and then get the non-DHK flag.  At that point *any* lvl 
60 can go one-hit them, or any AoE happening would suddenly wipe them 
out.

> - Heal the level 60 I'm fighting

Not sure if you're aware of how flagging works on PVE servers, but 
healing a flagged char also flags you.  The same mechanism can work the 
same way for a DHK flag system.  Easy solution.

> 10 level 20 can kill me.

I seriously doubt this... once they take their first hits and become 
non-DHK, you'd swat them like flies.  An AoE char such as a mage would 
flatten them like a tornado through a cornfield.  But... even if they 
did succeed, they'd probably have several dead, and the long non-DHK 
penalty would make it very painful for them.  I can't see anyone making 
that work for them.

> If you didn't figure it out yet: I'm talking about raid situations or
> at least XvsX, not 1vs1.

Me too.  I have random mass mayhem at XR in mind.  On rare occasion a 
group of brave level 30 Alliance will descend on the east gate and draw 
equivalent level opponents out for battle.  When I see lvl 60 Horde join 
in and mop up the 30's it makes me ill... a fair and fun fight is 
ruined.  Of course, alliance rogues regularly one-shot all the flagged 
lvl 10-30 in XR as well.  Again, I say let them do it, but also let them 
feel some DHK.

> And yes: Everyone poses a thread there. At least potentially. Whether
> or not a certain player poses a thread to a certain other player in
> a certain situation and a certain place can be determined by you and
> me (maybe), but by an algorithm?

The algorithm is so simple (DHK flag) that the players still make the 
choices.  The lvl 60 can choose to be evil and take the DHK hit, or the 
lvl 30 can choose to be "a threat" by attacking and getting the non-DHK 
flag.  

> A bit of explanation, because I'm getting the impression you get it wrong
> why I write all that stuff:
> 
> - Me big cuddly cow not loves ganking
> - Me big cuddly cow hate bad bad guys who kill others in a not fair fight,
>   no matter whether it is 1x60 vs 1x40 or 2x60 vs. 1x60
> - Me big cuddly cow still don't want no DHK for killing lower levels
>   because it can't work in raid situations
> - Me big cuddly cow don't want no DHK for killing lower levels because
>   me knows it will be abused
> 
> --> I don't support ganking <--
> --> I don't support corpse camping <--

Well that's nice.

> > I have no respect for the players on my server that do this
> 
> Neither do I. But I'm not talking about 1vs1. (Please take out a
> text marker and mark this sentence, it seems quite important)

I never made that assumption.

> The idea to measure "honor" is bullshit. As long as you think about this
> system as a system that reflects how honorable a player acts, you will
> be disappointed because of various facts:
> - To take damage is (at least for me) a much more honorable act than
>   to kill someone, but it is not yet covered. If I charge into a group
>   of 10-20 defenders, distract them for a while, and get killed, is this
>   honorable or not? Why is it more honorable for a mage, who's standing
>   back and doesn't risk anything, to nuke an enemy char I'm currently
>   distracting?
> - Whether an act is honorable or not is so depending on the situation it
>   can't be judged by an algorithm.
> - Every system that somehow rewards the players will be abused, e.g.
>   "honor" points will be farmed. Farming = Honorable act?
> - Every system that somehow punishes the players will be abused
>   (That's why it's not implemented and why I am against it)

Interesting point about being a meatshield distraction and not getting 
honor.  However, if you do a bunch of damage and your targets later die, 
you get some honor points.  Also, if you're in a group and your act 
benefits your teammates and kills result, you share the honor.  So the 
system isn't perfect (non-grouped non-damaging meatshield is SOL) but 
it's workable.  I would hate Blizzard to scrap the whole honor system 
due to your exceptions with it.  It's exciting, it encourages pvp, it 
has purpose (special gear), it's neat.  It just needs a little more work.

> >  - Low level char has "DHK" flag on him for anyone > 20 lvls above.
> >  - Low level char attacks someone > 20 lvls above?  DHK flag gone for 
> > 30 mins, plenty of time for repeated corpse-camping and education.
> >  - AoE from high lvl char will not affect a "DHK" char (a similar 
> > mechanism is already in place in the game code for non-pvp chars on pve 
> > servers, though there is currently an exploit that needs fixing).
> 
> Never heard about this mechanism, are you sure this exists? Every AoE
> I did so far in horde territory both flagged me for PvP and affected
> the alliance player. (Happens sometimes in SM)

Yep.  From:  http://www.worldofwar.net/guides/pvp.php

"Additionally, Area of Effect spells will not activate PvP. This means 
that if a player of the opposing faction with PvP enabled walks into 
your AoE spell effects while you are fighting monsters, your spell will 
not damage them and activate PvP for you. If your PvP flag is already 
on, your AoE spell will damage enemy players (those with PvP enabled) as 
normal."

That's been my experience, and I agree with the intelligence of the 
rule, but ironically it has more often been a pain for me than a 
benefit.  I throw myself freshly into an XR fight, frost nova, cone of 
cold, flame strike... D'oh!  Nobody is hurt, all that mana and 
opportunity is wasted, and I'm still non-pvp.  Send a Fireblast against 
a targeted alliance scumbag, ok now I'm pvp.

> >  - A zerg of lvl 20's on a lvl 60 will result in the 20's becoming fair 
> > game on their first hit... each one will be insta-killed by the lvl 60 
> > with no DHK penalty, and in the case where they get lucky and take him 
> > down they will still be non-DHK for a long time and will suffer badly.
> 
> There are still a lot of examples how to abuse this, for example:
> Level 60 fights another level 60, a level 40 heals one of them. Bad
> luck for the level 60 who isn't exploiting the system, because he
> has the choice of either dying or loosing "honor".

This is tough if the lvl 40 wasn't flagged prior, but he will be after 
the heal.  This mechanism is already in place for pvp-flagging, should 
be quite simple with a non-DHK flag as well.

> Look: On one hand, I'd really appreciate it if there was a way to
> keep people from unfair fights. No matter whether it's a 60 vs a 40
> or 3 people vs 1. On the other hand, I expect people to act like
> they had a brain and some social competence. If I see a hordy
> ganking or corpse camping, he'll get on my ignore list. If I see an
> ally doing it, he'll get on my KOS list.
> After playing on a PvP server for some months, I'm actually happy it
> is possible to act like a total tool, because
> 
> a) You figure out who's a cool person, no matter whether he's friend
>    or foe
> b) The moments when you don't get killed by another player that
>    could easily waste you are quite cool.
> 
> I can tell you how the current situation on PvP servers is: You will
> even get flamed for telling that people who gank and corpse camp
> suck. You'll find others who agree with you, but that's not the
> majority. We have a separate Subforum on our realms unofficial
> forum that's only about "Dear XYZ, you suck".
> 
> The current system doesn't reward you for dishonorable actions.
> This system is, by all means, far from being accurate. But it
> doesn't hurt anyone if it is wrong. When I do something I would
> judge as honorable (remember that "charging into enemy lines"
> thing?) and the system judges the situation wrong, I won't get
> any CP. That's it. No harm done, so what?

For most people, the DHK system would be completely peripheral.  Low 
lvls wouldn't take the risk of getting non-DHK flagged unless they 
wanted to sit in ghost form for 30 mins (or 1 hr?  tweakable...) or deal 
with continual penalty-free ganks from the lvl 60's.  High lvls would 
ignore the low lvls with "DHK" labels, and their AoE wouldn't hit them 
anyway.

For those that are total tools, the DHK system may be their badge of 
(dis)honor.  I say, let the honor scale look like faction rep -- let it 
go negative.  Instead of just "Scout", "Grunt", etc ever increasing, let 
it go to "Dishonored", "Reviled", etc.  Let each negative rank mean a 
corresponding hike to the honor attaching to killing that person, so 
that dishonored players get ganked like no others.  Let there even be 
rewards, perhaps a random item right out of the dishonored player's 
inventory!  Wouldn't that be a riot.

> But if I do something that wasn't dishonorable and still get
> punished because the system is wrong or got exploited, I would
> get pissed. That's not entirely true, as I'm a scout and there's
> not much I care less about than my bodycount score, but I'd bet
> a large sum that the PvPers would cry so loud even the Blizzard
> quality assurance would hear it.

Blizzard has QA?  Are you spreading rumors?

-- 
 Eonar:  Hemophage (60), Human warrior     Purge (60), Undead mage
         Dagobert  (34), Human mage        Vaik  (12), Night Elf rogue