🚀 go-pugleaf

Todd wrote:
> When you're playing with bots, they just won't follow orders.

But playing it with good team-mates is fantastic.

nwDOM is still my favourite ut gametype ever. Shame no bugger else plays 
it :(

> By the way, anyone know why bots get stuck on stairs so often on
> non-professional maps?

Bad bot pathing. For the reasons you describe, solo dom isn't that much 
fun so I'm guessing the map makers don't put a lot of effort into 
supporting it.

"Flash" <NOSPAM@digdilem.org> wrote in message 
news:z7CdnUGUUuC6lqnUnZ2dnUVZ8vudnZ2d@eclipse.net.uk...
> Todd wrote:
>> When you're playing with bots, they just won't follow orders.
>
> But playing it with good team-mates is fantastic.
>
> nwDOM is still my favourite ut gametype ever. Shame no bugger else plays 
> it :(
>
>> By the way, anyone know why bots get stuck on stairs so often on
>> non-professional maps?
>
> Bad bot pathing. For the reasons you describe, solo dom isn't that much 
> fun so I'm guessing the map makers don't put a lot of effort into 
> supporting it.

I've been coding with a group on doing a double domination mod up right. 
Soon as it's done, I'll post it here. I was making custom control points 
last night. 

Flash <NOSPAM@digdilem.org> wrote:

>nwDOM is still my favourite ut gametype ever. Shame no bugger else plays 
>it :(

What is nwDom?  I did a Google search, but didn't find an explanation.

I asked:

>> By the way, anyone know why bots get stuck on stairs so often on
>> non-professional maps?

Flash <NOSPAM@digdilem.org> answered:

>Bad bot pathing. For the reasons you describe, solo dom isn't that much 
>fun so I'm guessing the map makers don't put a lot of effort into 
>supporting it.

I was hoping for a more detailed explanation.  If I didn't despise the
Unreal editor so much (can't they just use scrollbars, instead of
ctrl-alt-shift-del-bkspc-ins-click), I'd volunteer to do botpathing
for those who can't get it or don't want to bother.  And really, if
you can work with the editor, and have the talent to make an
incredible map, how hard is botpathing?

"Todd" <noone@nowhere.com> wrote in message 
news:clfhj4lv6ikkib3dncasatn9k7vvv6tj9j@4ax.com...
> Flash <NOSPAM@digdilem.org> wrote:
>
>>nwDOM is still my favourite ut gametype ever. Shame no bugger else plays
>>it :(
>
> What is nwDom?  I did a Google search, but didn't find an explanation.
>
> I asked:
>
>>> By the way, anyone know why bots get stuck on stairs so often on
>>> non-professional maps?
>
> Flash <NOSPAM@digdilem.org> answered:
>
>>Bad bot pathing. For the reasons you describe, solo dom isn't that much
>>fun so I'm guessing the map makers don't put a lot of effort into
>>supporting it.
>
> I was hoping for a more detailed explanation.  If I didn't despise the
> Unreal editor so much (can't they just use scrollbars, instead of
> ctrl-alt-shift-del-bkspc-ins-click), I'd volunteer to do botpathing
> for those who can't get it or don't want to bother.  And really, if
> you can work with the editor, and have the talent to make an
> incredible map, how hard is botpathing?
>
>

Actually tougher than you think. The bot AI makes a LOT of decisions on the 
fly and the editor allows you to greatly tweak their preferences for paths, 
item, etc. Pathing a larger AS or DOM or any of the warfare mapstyles can be 
very challenging, maybe more so than creating the map. 

Todd wrote:
>> nwDOM is still my favourite ut gametype ever. Shame no bugger else plays 
>> it :(
> 
> What is nwDom?  I did a Google search, but didn't find an explanation.

Sorry. Normal Weapon Dom - the stock gametype. As opposed to iDom - with 
instagib.

Clanbase rules: 5v5, Dom-Olden, FF=0, Translocator=On, WS=On, 20mins per 
map. Best team score at end of map = map won. 2 maps, with a third map 
in event of tie.

Normal tactics were to put 2 players at each of the two busiest and 
hardest to defend CP's and the fifth at a single-player CP (stock maps 
normally had one, like the SB point in Gearbolt, Nook in Cinder, center 
is Sesmar). On some maps with two CP's close to each other, you'd have 
2-1-1 with 1 player supporting the latter two. Like Olden - one each on 
middle and top, with somebody covering the gantry between the two. Keep 
that clean and it makes it a lot easier for both CP scorers.

Note that in dom, fragging does not score for the team so really 
enhances the teamplay. Control Point squatting is everything. In fact, a 
medium skilled DOM clan could wipe the floor with a high skill DM or CTF 
clan who didn't assign CP's to players and used the "rush to the 
closest" or "run around in a big gang" tactics.

What killed dom, imo, was poor map design and player ignorance.

Many players played DM, scoring no points for their team. The game is 
actually quite subtle with quite some depth but few players played it 
long enough, or survived long enough, to learn these.

There weren't very many *good* DOM maps ever made. Perhaps a dozen, 
tops. Quite a lot had all the spawn points in one location with 1 or 2 
choke points between them and the CP's, or had weapons in another 
direction. That meant once a more powerful team got camped they could 
asmd-combo or rocket spam these choke points and stop anyone getting 
through. It also meant spawnkilling was a big problem, and spawn 
protection on the smaller maps useless since it could only take 2-3 
seconds to get to a CP - if protected they could get there without 
taking any damage, so SP was never used. Dom was all about "Spawn, 
trans, frag, camp, die" with respawns coming often 2-3 times or more a 
minute.

Unlike CTF where a team has to go out to get points, in DOM they just 
have to camp - in that regard, it's very much like defending in CTF. 
And, since trans is on, the action is very 3d with people camping on the 
ceiling and inaccessible places, or coming into a CP fast and from 
unexpected directions.

It was great fun!

>> Bad bot pathing. For the reasons you describe, solo dom isn't that much 
>> fun so I'm guessing the map makers don't put a lot of effort into 
>> supporting it.
> 
> I was hoping for a more detailed explanation.  If I didn't despise the
> Unreal editor so much (can't they just use scrollbars, instead of
> ctrl-alt-shift-del-bkspc-ins-click), I'd volunteer to do botpathing
> for those who can't get it or don't want to bother.  And really, if
> you can work with the editor, and have the talent to make an
> incredible map, how hard is botpathing?

Dunno, not a mapper. The stock maps are okay, but most of the extra ones 
fail with bots. Quite a few fail with players too - quite a few bugs and 
Hall of Mirror spots on 'em.

Epic dropped DOM in 2k3 and imo they were right to do so as interest had 
dropped completely by then.

goPostal wrote:

> Actually tougher than you think. The bot AI makes a LOT of decisions on the 
> fly and the editor allows you to greatly tweak their preferences for paths, 
> item, etc. Pathing a larger AS or DOM or any of the warfare mapstyles can be 
> very challenging, maybe more so than creating the map. 

Thinking about it, the 3d translocator aspects of nwDom must make it 
hard for bots to understand. They'll come in one way only (the instagib 
paths) and even at godlike, won't translocate as quickly and smoothly as 
a human.

"Flash" <NOSPAM@digdilem.org> wrote in message 
news:2sOdnc2dsfBmEsvUnZ2dnUVZ8vCdnZ2d@eclipse.net.uk...
> goPostal wrote:
>
>> Actually tougher than you think. The bot AI makes a LOT of decisions on 
>> the fly and the editor allows you to greatly tweak their preferences for 
>> paths, item, etc. Pathing a larger AS or DOM or any of the warfare 
>> mapstyles can be very challenging, maybe more so than creating the map.
>
> Thinking about it, the 3d translocator aspects of nwDom must make it hard 
> for bots to understand. They'll come in one way only (the instagib paths) 
> and even at godlike, won't translocate as quickly and smoothly as a human.

Hey Flash do you still mess around with the anticheat stuff? I need to get 
hold of a radar that is decompileable. I made one for MonsterHunt (totally 
legit mod for that game, it won't "see" players anyway, only the 
specifically scripted monsters used in the mod) but replication to the 
client across a server is hanging me up. I'd like to see how client side is 
handled and if I can make my mod work that way. 

goPostal wrote:

> Hey Flash do you still mess around with the anticheat stuff? I need to get 
> hold of a radar that is decompileable. I made one for MonsterHunt (totally 

Sorry mate, I don't any more.

"Flash" <NOSPAM@digdilem.org> wrote in message 
news:4bCdnUjQ_ciJnsXUnZ2dnUVZ8uydnZ2d@eclipse.net.uk...
> goPostal wrote:
>
>> Hey Flash do you still mess around with the anticheat stuff? I need to 
>> get hold of a radar that is decompileable. I made one for MonsterHunt 
>> (totally
>
> Sorry mate, I don't any more.

What a shame. You did an awful lot to keep the community secure. Do you 
still have your webpage on it? I'd like to mirror it for old times sake  \O/ 

goPostal wrote:

> What a shame. You did an awful lot to keep the community secure. Do you 
> still have your webpage on it? I'd like to mirror it for old times sake  \O/ 

Sure - it's still up and getting the odd visitor. 
http://digdilem.org/ut/aimbot.php iirc

Feel free to mirror, just keep the credits up pls :)

"Flash" <NOSPAM@digdilem.org> wrote in message 
news:KdKdnS2G3pIyAMfUnZ2dnUVZ8uydnZ2d@eclipse.net.uk...
> goPostal wrote:
>
>> What a shame. You did an awful lot to keep the community secure. Do you 
>> still have your webpage on it? I'd like to mirror it for old times sake 
>> \O/
>
> Sure - it's still up and getting the odd visitor. 
> http://digdilem.org/ut/aimbot.php iirc
>
> Feel free to mirror, just keep the credits up pls :)

No problem. Thank you for permission. I'd hate to lose this into the 
internet ether. It pains me that the old AGUT fragfest pages are so long 
gone. If I'd only saved those....That was the best time ever.

Once I get it posted up I'll put the link here. BTW, does anyone have any of 
the old AGUT stuff they'd like to share up to posterity? Screenshots, demos, 
stuff like that? Sadly I kept nothing.