🚀 go-pugleaf

In article <LUfc2.2190$961....@server1.news.adelphia.net>, 
tabmok99....@damnspaz.com says...
> > I think that you will find that as you said, the bible was written in 
> > large part to explain the unexplainable. The guys writing it did *not* 
> > know the real explanation and it was not for lack of language merely 
> > lack of investigation and knowledge. 
> 
> No no no.  The bible was written by prophets, who were directed by God.  God 
I know at the end of the message you claim your minority status to be a 
disadvantage and so did not want to open this up, but since I asked you 
not use "God" as a basis for "your" opinion (which you have ignored) and 
that supposedly 95% of the human race believe in some form of deity (one 
hell of a minority mate ;) ) , I am going to do it anyway. Also since 
most people seem to be ignoring the thread, hell even Alex has 
disappeared of late ;) , I think it is a more even discussion. 

Dictionary definition : 

Prophet - a teacher or interpreter of the supposed will of God. 

Obviously there are other interpretations of the word in the dictionary 
definition but this is the generally accepted definition of the word and 
it is the definition I would use in any such discussion. The definition 
merely provides a "measuring stick" to avoid misinterpretation of my 
comments.

So, definitive word "supposed". Even a dictionary dare not say there is 
or is not a God. But the way I read it suggests more the latter than the 
former particularly when one could look up any mythical beast and find 
similar use of the term "supposed". :)

I am not prone to quoting dictionary definitions but as I said, I thought 
it important to establish a common "yardarm" for this discussion.

You have admitted your adherence to Christianity and I think you can 
guess from my past comments that I have no belief in any "supreme" being. 
Personally I find the mice scenario from "Hitchhikers Guide to the 
Galaxy" more believable that some omnisicent One. ;)

I would be interested to know your level of "devotion"(?) I do not know 
the correct term. ;)

> didn't teach them all about evolution, natural selection, or any of the other 
> things we know about today.  

Did not Adam eat of the "Tree of Knowledge"? Surely this was indicative 
than Man had been blessed/cursed with *all* knowledge. 

Maybe God was just some guy who bragged a lot...

"Hey, write this, tell 'em I made the entire world in erm... 7 ... yes 7 
days! Well no 6 cos I wanted to have Sunday off!". <they all laugh and 
grab another beer> "And, oh yeah, use all that begat and thou stuff to 
make it sound important and make it difficult to interpret" <fade to 
Garden of Eden>

The fact that we now know that the "creation" of Earth was some billions 
of years of chemical, physical and biological interaction seems to be 
sorely missing!

I have not ignored your "they did not know all that stuff..." comment. 
But just think, how did we find all this "stuff" out? There was no 
"burning bush" and I am sure Charles Darwin did not have to almost 
sacrifice his son to God to work out the relationship between Man and 
Ape. We still have throwbacks to earlier evolutionary stages such as 
wolf-men etc and a number of people exhibit characteristics and even 
physical similarities to the variety of animals in our makeup. If it were 
not for the strictures on society placed by the originally widespread 
belief in some "One" I am sure we would have got there much faster. 

So no "seeing the light" just someone putting two and two together and 
coming up with four rather than coming up with 5 and thinking "fuck it, 
there is a deadline coming up so here's a good yarn for you!".

The bible is probably the world's greatest work of fiction to date. I am 
sure at the time of writing it was similar to an employee handbook. You 
know the do's and dont's of the workplace, but this was more a society 
handbook since it insisted on certain moral limitations which continue to 
hinder sociological development today. 

> We're still at the top of the food chain.  Even though people act like other 
Isn't it interesting that most of man's worst fears are based on being 
second to top. E.g. Vampires - preying on the blood of Man. And isn't it 
arrogant that we think the only thing "better" than us could be a 
slightly different version!

Since it is some time since I read it, I cannot quote verbatim, but does 
not the bible say that "God created Man in His own image". Is this not 
just another example of human arrogance - that the Supreme Being must be 
exactly like us but also omnipotent. I fully believe that Man created God 
in *his* own image!

> animals sometimes, that's because we're all related - we're just the "new and 
> improved" version.
> 
> > Ants have their very own dairy farms in the form of green fly which they 
> > milk regularly but do not kill. They will even go so far as to protect 
> > their "farms". As do we.
> > 
> > Many animals can create and use tools. As can we.
> > 
> > Animals realised the truth of the saying "strength in numbers" when under 
> > threat from predators. As do humans.
> > 
> > Animals can be both mesmerised and fearful of fire. As can we.
> > 
> > Look at the mating "rituals" of many animals. No they do not have night 
> > clubs, but there is a process that animals go through to attract a mate 
> > and get laid. 
> > 
> > We could be here forever but I think you'll get the idea. :)
> 
> Well like I said, people are animals too.  But better ones.

No, you said and I quote *verbatim* "Maybe, but we're not animals, we're 
people." You should have learned from WIB that Alex and I have a pretty 
good memory of what each other said. ;)

Eventually I asked - why better? You claimed our accomplishments which I 
pointed out as relatively insignificant in the larger scale of things but 
now you agree our origins make us animals and regardless of your standard 
human "better ones" comment, we obviously deserve no better or worse than 
animals.

> > > OK, the Bible is mistranslated a lot.  But Leviticus 20:13 is clear:
> > > 
> > > "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of
> > > them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death;
> > > their blood shall be upon them." 
> > Hang on, didn't you read my comment ... "we long ago realised that the 
> > bible is *not* law." 
> > 
> > I am really trying to stay away from this so I'll ask once again. Do you 
> > *really* want to go there?
> 
> Didn't you see where I said I agreed?  And that a separation of church and 
> state is necessary?

You sort of agreed with different interpretations of the bible, but not 
my point which is why I re-iterated it! I assume your use of the term 
"mistranslated" was accidental ;)

Personally I think that the Church should be dissolved and they should 
definitely have no say in state issues. But, it won't happen just yet. 
However, the Church is now trying to adapt to society after remaining 
stuck in the "dark ages" since time immemorial. 

Cannot resist bringing it up but since a large number of Church officials 
are homosexual and you have an obvious problem with homosexuality, how do 
you stand going to church? ;) I think the Church's acceptance of 
homosexuality is just because if they do not, then they are the most 
hippo critical organisation in the world. 

> > I so want you to say Yes :)
> 
> Nah...  I'd be the minority here :)  

Sorry too late :P

> I will say however, that people have had 
> life and death situations where they came back, that are unexplainable by 
> doctors.

And your point? Your "example" is not quite clear so I am assuming you 
are talking about return to life after being pronounced "dead". 

Doctors are overworked and make mistakes and I am sure this accounts for 
a number of suddenly inexplicable cases. As for the others, I think you 
will find it is merely a good example of the power of life and every cell 
striving to survive which causes this "apparent" death into life 
scenario. 

Besides, what does the bible have to say about those who return from the 
dead. I recall there is mention and that is not too complimentary ;)

In conclusion, drawing on other parts of the thread, particularly with 
regard to preservation of life (ignoring suicide and abortion since your 
views are obviously not your own) how many people have died in the name 
of Gods. How many wars between nations believing in a different one to 
their neighbour? How many innocent women slaughtered as "witches" in the 
name of God? Look at Northern Ireland, a small part of a small island 
with a rift caused in the main by problems between Protestant and 
Catholic factions. I know NI has other issues these days, but the roots 
are in religion and for fuck's sake they believe in such similar things 
as to make the difference inconsequential. No wonder the less developed 
countries in the world constantly fight over religion! 

In case you have actually bothered to read this reply and are not too 
pissed off with me, I'll tell you why I have the views I do. If you are 
still "talking" to me after this, maybe you will let me in on why you 
believe in God and whatever else you do. :)

This may go on a bit but I think it is all kind of relevant as to how I 
formed my "own" opinions. 

I was brought up in a small English village. It neighbours a couple of 
other villages. Two of the neighbouring villages have a Church and one a 
Methodist Chapel aswell. My village had a Methodist and a Baptist Chapel. 
We had to "share" the Church with a neighbouring village. One of these 
Churches originally had a door specifically for our village to use. It 
was "bricked up" due to rivalry between the two villages and remains so 
to this day. A house of God with it's Love thy Neighbour commandment 
bricking up an entrance = hippocracy! I heard this "story" when I was 
very young. 

I was "forced" to go to "Sunday School" every week. My parents were not 
really religious and I would not like to suggest whether or not they 
believe in God. I neither know nor care. As long as it does not affect me 
that is OK. The main reason I was sent to Sunday School was to get me out 
of the house every Sunday so they had time to spend together, alone. 
Anyway, as all children do I tended to ask questions. I was never in awe 
of this God guy so I often questioned things I was "told". Eventually, my 
parents were asked to not send me any more. 

When I got to Junior School (7-11 years old - not sure what it relates to 
in the states ;) ) my first teacher was a *very* strict Christian. As 
such my class and I were constantly forced to hear "lectures" on God etc. 
Anyway, I saw a chance to have my questions (that Sunday School had 
removed me for) answered. The only answers I ever received were 
meaningless "It is God's way" type crap. 

Even at an early age I was not convinced by the "hype". So as I 
progressed and was taught science and evolutionary theories and the like, 
any chance for a remotely possible belief in God had passed. No 
"believer" could answer a simple question that I had and as I grew older 
I expected it to turn out to be another Santa Claus. One of the many 
"lies" we tell children to make childhood a little different. Imagine my 
surprise when I discovered how many people believe that there is some 
ageless omnipotent one out there. 

I am not sure I explained that too well so to summarise I was presented 
with this strange fantasy scenario as a child which could not be proved 
in anyway whatsoever. Or, I could look at scientific proof of evolution 
and the origin of life, and before that the planets etc. I just chose 
what I still see as the obvious answer. 

There is no heaven and there is no hell and there is definitely no God 
in any form. I appreciate that some people are lacking in the self 
respect to just enjoy life while they have it and would prefer to indulge 
in some fantasy to make loss and death easier to deal with. But if they 
cannot find the strength within themselves and are seeking some answer 
that will never be given, then I see that as bad as the hallucinations 
brought on by drugs and I pity them. You claimed Alex and others used 
drugs to overcome life's problems. Are you not doing the same with God?

-- 
Mark