🚀 go-pugleaf

On Tue, 13 Jan 2004 22:56:46 GMT, "Doug Cook" <dcook@concentric.net>
wrote:

>Hi,
>I have 2 old Toshiba laptops, and I'd like to dedicate one to running old
>DOS games - mainly Descent 1 and 2.  The first laptop has a P100 and 40 MB
>ram.  The second has a P120 and 32 MB ram.  Which is more important,
>processor or memory? 

Memory is important, but 32MB is more than enough for Descent 2.  You
will need processor power instead (P120 should be okay), but may opt
for the slower speed one if you have too much trouble with homing
missles - assuming 20Mhz is going to make a difference. :)

> I'm hoping that one or the other would be more than
>sufficient.  They both currently have Win98 installed.  Is Windows DOS
>workable, or should I install DOS 6?  

Windows DOS works okay - you can reach it through a few tricks that
are possible.

> Also, can someone please post the most
>effective autoexec.bat and config.sys files for running descent.  I've
>forgotten more about DOS than I'll ever remember.  Thanks.
>Doug

Usually, the default autoexec.bat and config.sys should work without
problem.   Just make sure you load your mouse driver and ensure your
sound card is configured to work correctly under DOS - other than
that, there is nothing special to worry about.

  

On Tue, 13 Jan 2004 22:56:46 GMT, "Doug Cook" <dcook@concentric.net>
wrote:

>Hi,
>I have 2 old Toshiba laptops, and I'd like to dedicate one to running old
>DOS games - mainly Descent 1 and 2.  The first laptop has a P100 and 40 MB
>ram.  The second has a P120 and 32 MB ram.  Which is more important,
>processor or memory?  I'm hoping that one or the other would be more than
>sufficient.  They both currently have Win98 installed.  Is Windows DOS
>workable, or should I install DOS 6?  Also, can someone please post the most
>effective autoexec.bat and config.sys files for running descent.  I've
>forgotten more about DOS than I'll ever remember.  Thanks.
>Doug
> ===============================

  Just boot to 5. Command prompt only (when booting, hold F8 down to
get the selection list). It works just like the old DOS's did.

  Below is the part of my Win98 boot that applies to your request.

CONFIG.SYS
fcbs=8
shell=c:\command.com c:\ /e:512 /p
device=c:\windows\himem.sys /hmamin=63 /testmem:off
device=c:\windows\emm386.exe noems i=b000-b7ff x=c000-c7ff
dos=high,umb
switches=/f
lastdrivehigh=m
buffershigh=13,0
fileshigh=40

AUTOEXEC.BAT
@echo off
prompt $p $g
set temp=c:\temp
path c:\windows\command;e:\dos;c:\windows
lh c:\windows\smartdrv.exe A- C D  /e:8192 /b:32000 2000 2000
lh c:\windows\command\doskey /bufsize=1024
lh c:\mouse\mouse
set blaster=a220 i5 d1 h7 p330 t6
set sound=e:\sb16

  Maybe that will help some.

Thanks for the information - I'm now in the process of tweaking.  Just for
grins, I installed Duke3D to see how that would work and it works better
than Descent!  The detail levels and screen resolutions are the same.  Since
the DOS requirements are about the same for both games, I'm wondering why
one is more fluid than the other.  Just to rule out any hardware concerns,
can someone please tell me if the 2MB video ram I have is enough for a
nicely running D1 and D2.  The first time I got into D1/D2, my computer I
had a 4MB video card.  Thanks again.


"Doug Cook" <dcook@concentric.net> wrote in message
news:OI_Mb.189$l84.126150@news3.news.adelphia.net...
> Hi,
> I have 2 old Toshiba laptops, and I'd like to dedicate one to running old
> DOS games - mainly Descent 1 and 2.  The first laptop has a P100 and 40 MB
> ram.  The second has a P120 and 32 MB ram.  Which is more important,
> processor or memory?  I'm hoping that one or the other would be more than
> sufficient.  They both currently have Win98 installed.  Is Windows DOS
> workable, or should I install DOS 6?  Also, can someone please post the
most
> effective autoexec.bat and config.sys files for running descent.  I've
> forgotten more about DOS than I'll ever remember.  Thanks.
> Doug
>
>

 > Just to rule out any hardware concerns,
> can someone please tell me if the 2MB video ram I have is enough for a
> nicely running D1 and D2.  The first time I got into D1/D2, my computer I
> had a 4MB video card.  

D1 and D2 (the "official" versions anyway) just do software rendering, 
meaning you only need enough video memory for probably two frame buffers 
(a front buffer and a back buffer; the game will draw on one while 
displaying the other, then flip; at least, that's what I'm assuming it 
does).  If you're running in 320x200 mode with 256 colors, you need a 
whopping 64KB per frame buffer, or 128KB total video memory.  Jump up to 
640x480, and you need 600KB (round that up to 1MB).  So, the short 
answer is, 2MB video memory is fine for Descent 1 and 2.

After writing the above, I dug up my Descent box and manual and looked 
at the system requirements page.  Here's what it says...

"IBM/Tandy 100% compatible 386-33 or faster (486-33 w/8 Megs of RAM 
highly recommended) with 4 Megabytes of RAM.  DOS 5.0 or later. 
Supports Microsoft Mouse or compatibles.  Sound Cards Supported: Sound 
Blaster (Pro, 16, AWE32), Media Vision Pro-Audio Spectrum (Plus, 16, and 
Studio), Gravis Ultrasound, General MIDI, SCC-1.  1 or 2 Joysticks 
supported as well as ThrustMaster WCS, FCS, FLCS, Gravis Game Pad, 
Phoenix, Logitech Cyberman, CH Flightstick Pro and Wingman Extreme. 
Supports the Forte VFX-1 and Victormaxx CyberMaxx."

... no mention of video memory at all.

Also, note that we've gotten spoiled frame-rate wise in the past ten 
years.  My 100MHz DX4 system, well above the recommended system 
requirements only got 20-odd frames per second at 320x200.

On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 19:40:07 GMT, "Doug Cook" <dcook@concentric.net>
wrote:

>Thanks for the information - I'm now in the process of tweaking.  Just for
>grins, I installed Duke3D to see how that would work and it works better
>than Descent!  The detail levels and screen resolutions are the same.  Since
>the DOS requirements are about the same for both games, I'm wondering why
>one is more fluid than the other.

Duke3D, even though it looks like a 3D game, is really simpler than it
looks. It is really a 2D game projected in a manner to look 3D,
involving various optimizations to speed up processing.  

There are technical documents that describe some information about
this process, such as secitons 4-6 through 4-9 in the Unoffical Doom
Specs (http://cres1.lancs.ac.uk/~esasb1/doom/dmspec16.zip).  This
describes how Doom places its focus on rendering walls (and rendering
a strip that appears to be a textured floor or ceiling), giving an
illusion of 3D space.  This illusion isn't perfect, as it tends to
give distortion when you look up or down.  

Descent, on the other hand, requires full 3D rendering, as floors and
walls can be in any orientation.  While some optimizations can apply,
not all of them are possible.  In addition, the opponents are actual
3D models as opposed to 2D Sprites, thus requiring more processing
power compared to Duke3D. In addition, it also has to keep a depth
buffer in system memory (not counted as memory required on your video
card), which also slows down processing as well.

Technical information about Descent style rendering is beyond the
scope of a simple newsgroup posting - the only way to see how it works
is by downloading the source code.  

I'm getting 20 to 30 fps at 320x200, and around 10 at 640x480.  Detail level
was set to high (not highest).  That still seems slower than I remember, and
if the responses I've recieved are correct, then I think I should be getting
better.  Is there anything obvious that I'm overlooking?



"Yeremein" <yeremein@nonexistent.net> wrote in message
news:buf79v$50j$1@terabinaries.xmission.com...
> > Just to rule out any hardware concerns,
> > can someone please tell me if the 2MB video ram I have is enough for a
> > nicely running D1 and D2.  The first time I got into D1/D2, my computer
I
> > had a 4MB video card.
>
> D1 and D2 (the "official" versions anyway) just do software rendering,
> meaning you only need enough video memory for probably two frame buffers
> (a front buffer and a back buffer; the game will draw on one while
> displaying the other, then flip; at least, that's what I'm assuming it
> does).  If you're running in 320x200 mode with 256 colors, you need a
> whopping 64KB per frame buffer, or 128KB total video memory.  Jump up to
> 640x480, and you need 600KB (round that up to 1MB).  So, the short
> answer is, 2MB video memory is fine for Descent 1 and 2.
>
> After writing the above, I dug up my Descent box and manual and looked
> at the system requirements page.  Here's what it says...
>
> "IBM/Tandy 100% compatible 386-33 or faster (486-33 w/8 Megs of RAM
> highly recommended) with 4 Megabytes of RAM.  DOS 5.0 or later.
> Supports Microsoft Mouse or compatibles.  Sound Cards Supported: Sound
> Blaster (Pro, 16, AWE32), Media Vision Pro-Audio Spectrum (Plus, 16, and
> Studio), Gravis Ultrasound, General MIDI, SCC-1.  1 or 2 Joysticks
> supported as well as ThrustMaster WCS, FCS, FLCS, Gravis Game Pad,
> Phoenix, Logitech Cyberman, CH Flightstick Pro and Wingman Extreme.
> Supports the Forte VFX-1 and Victormaxx CyberMaxx."
>
> ... no mention of video memory at all.
>
> Also, note that we've gotten spoiled frame-rate wise in the past ten
> years.  My 100MHz DX4 system, well above the recommended system
> requirements only got 20-odd frames per second at 320x200.
>

Let me be more specific.  I remember running D2 at 640x480, and at high
detail.  It was a beautifully running display.  Is that simply because I had
4MB video then and only 2MB now?  That seems to be the only difference.  The
processor was a P133, so there's no big increase there.  Again, are there
specific device drivers in the config.sys file which could be tweaked?
Thanks for all your help, I need the education.

"Doug Cook" <dcook@concentric.net> wrote in message
news:_uWOb.1206$b56.892657@news3.news.adelphia.net...
> I'm getting 20 to 30 fps at 320x200, and around 10 at 640x480.  Detail
level
> was set to high (not highest).  That still seems slower than I remember,
and
> if the responses I've recieved are correct, then I think I should be
getting
> better.  Is there anything obvious that I'm overlooking?
>
>
>
> "Yeremein" <yeremein@nonexistent.net> wrote in message
> news:buf79v$50j$1@terabinaries.xmission.com...
> > > Just to rule out any hardware concerns,
> > > can someone please tell me if the 2MB video ram I have is enough for a
> > > nicely running D1 and D2.  The first time I got into D1/D2, my
computer
> I
> > > had a 4MB video card.
> >
> > D1 and D2 (the "official" versions anyway) just do software rendering,
> > meaning you only need enough video memory for probably two frame buffers
> > (a front buffer and a back buffer; the game will draw on one while
> > displaying the other, then flip; at least, that's what I'm assuming it
> > does).  If you're running in 320x200 mode with 256 colors, you need a
> > whopping 64KB per frame buffer, or 128KB total video memory.  Jump up to
> > 640x480, and you need 600KB (round that up to 1MB).  So, the short
> > answer is, 2MB video memory is fine for Descent 1 and 2.
> >
> > After writing the above, I dug up my Descent box and manual and looked
> > at the system requirements page.  Here's what it says...
> >
> > "IBM/Tandy 100% compatible 386-33 or faster (486-33 w/8 Megs of RAM
> > highly recommended) with 4 Megabytes of RAM.  DOS 5.0 or later.
> > Supports Microsoft Mouse or compatibles.  Sound Cards Supported: Sound
> > Blaster (Pro, 16, AWE32), Media Vision Pro-Audio Spectrum (Plus, 16, and
> > Studio), Gravis Ultrasound, General MIDI, SCC-1.  1 or 2 Joysticks
> > supported as well as ThrustMaster WCS, FCS, FLCS, Gravis Game Pad,
> > Phoenix, Logitech Cyberman, CH Flightstick Pro and Wingman Extreme.
> > Supports the Forte VFX-1 and Victormaxx CyberMaxx."
> >
> > ... no mention of video memory at all.
> >
> > Also, note that we've gotten spoiled frame-rate wise in the past ten
> > years.  My 100MHz DX4 system, well above the recommended system
> > requirements only got 20-odd frames per second at 320x200.
> >
>
>

On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 19:40:07 GMT, "Doug Cook" <dcook@concentric.net>
wrote:

>Thanks for the information - I'm now in the process of tweaking.  Just for
>grins, I installed Duke3D to see how that would work and it works better
>than Descent!  The detail levels and screen resolutions are the same.  Since
>the DOS requirements are about the same for both games, I'm wondering why
>one is more fluid than the other.  Just to rule out any hardware concerns,
>can someone please tell me if the 2MB video ram I have is enough for a
>nicely running D1 and D2.  The first time I got into D1/D2, my computer I
>had a 4MB video card.  Thanks again.
>
  =========================

  Do you have all of the caches turned on in the BIOS?

On Tue, 13 Jan 2004 22:56:46 GMT, "Doug Cook" <dcook@concentric.net> wrote:

>Hi,
>I have 2 old Toshiba laptops, and I'd like to dedicate one to running old
>DOS games - mainly Descent 1 and 2.  The first laptop has a P100 and 40 MB
>ram.  The second has a P120 and 32 MB ram.  Which is more important,
>processor or memory?  I'm hoping that one or the other would be more than
>sufficient.  They both currently have Win98 installed.  Is Windows DOS
>workable, or should I install DOS 6?  Also, can someone please post the most
>effective autoexec.bat and config.sys files for running descent.  I've
>forgotten more about DOS than I'll ever remember.  Thanks.
>Doug

No need to install DOS, specifically.  Just disable the automatic GUI
startup, with the line

BootGUI=0

in the [Options] section of your Msdos.sys file (which is, in case you didn't
know, a plain text file).

Also, when it comes to running several DOS games, the [MENU] and
related Config.sys statements come in *very* handy for creating multiple
startup configurations.  Beats the heck out of the "old way", at least,
which was to have numerous boot disks, each one specific to each
game (or whatever).

Briefly, it's like this (using one of my old ones as an example):

[MENU]
MENUITEM=FULL,Full Configuration
MENUITEM=DOSCD,Full Config w/CD for DOS
MENUITEM=NOVBE,Full Config w/o VBE
MENUITEM=BARE_LOW,Minimum Low
MENUITEM=BARE_HI,Minimum High
SUBMENU=GAMES,Game Setups
SUBMENU=PROG,Programming Setups

MENUDEFAULT=FULL,8


The text after the "=" defines a section, and the text after the "," will
appear in a numbered list of selections.  For example, this is what
would be displayed, using the above example in a Config.sys:

Microsoft Windows 98 Startup Menu
==============================

	1. Full Configuration
	2. Full Config w/CD for DOS
	3. Full Config w/o VBE
	4. Minimum Low
	5. Minimum High
	7. Game Setups
	6. Programming Setups

Enter a choice: 1	Time remaining: 08


The "MENUDEFAULT" statement defines the default section that'll
be executed if no keys are pressed (in this case, "FULL"), and the
number after the comma is the number of seconds that'll count down
before MENUDEFAULT takes action.

The "sections" I mentioned, are like this:

[DOSCD]
INCLUDE=FULL
device=c:\systools\aspi8dos.sys
device=c:\systools\plextor.sys /D:PLEX0001

[NOVBE]
INCLUDE=FULL

[FULL]
DEVICE=c:\windows\himem.sys
DOS=HIGH,UMB
DEVICE=c:\windows\emm386.exe NOEMS FRAME=E000 RAM MIN=0 D=64 I=B000-B7FF
I=E000-EFFF
FILESHIGH=40
BUFFERSHIGH=40


(beware of line wrap in the 2nd "DEVICE=" line)
Note the names enclosed by [ ], that they correspond with the text after
the "=" in the block of [MENU] statements.

Most of this stuff should become fairly self explanatory, as you look over
it.  "INCLUDE", for example, does just what you'd think it would.  There's
also a "COMMON" section that can be defined.  Like:

[COMMON]
SHELL=C:\COMMAND.COM C:\ /E:512 /P


Whatever's contained in it, will be executed regardless of the menu choice.
In fact, your "more aware" installers will look for a COMMON section, to put
their stuff, so... it's not a bad idea to have an empty one at the end of your
config.sys file (you can have more than one COMMON section).

The statments, commands, program names... whatever, inside the sections,
behave as they would in any "normal" Config.sys.

The SUBMENU statement defines another list of menuitems, such as
the GAMES entry, above:

[GAMES]
MENUITEM=LEC,Dark Forces
MENUITEM=DSCNT,Descent
MENUITEM=DSCNT2,DescentII
MENUITEM=DUKE,Duke Nukem
MENUITEM=DOOM2,Doom2
MENUITEM=DOSM,DOS Mouse
MENUITEM=HEXN,Hexen / Citadel
MENUITEM=QUAKE,Quake


And those items work just like the main MENU menuitems (and I think
can contain additinal SUBMENU statements, but... don't remember for
sure, nor do I remember if it can have its own MENUDEFAULT line).

Then, when it comes to Autoexec.bat, there's a special environment
variable, called CONFIG, that the system sets, according to the selected
menuitem.

For example:

IF %CONFIG%==DOOM2 GOTO DOOM2

IF %CONFIG%==HEXN GOTO HEXN

IF %CONFIG%==DOSCD GOTO DOSCD
GOTO SETVARS

And so on, and so forth, with the labels like:

:DOOM2
stuff here for Doom
GOTO WRAPUP

:HEXN
stuff here for Hexen
GOTO WRAPUP

:DOSCD
LH c:\windows\command\mscdex.exe /D:PLEX0001 /M:10

:SETVARS
SET SOUND=C:\PROGRA~1\CREATIVE\CTSND
SET MIDI=SYNTH:1 MAP:E MODE:0
SET DIRCMD=/O
SET TEMP=C:\SYSTOOLS\TEMP
SET TMP=C:\SYSTOOLS\TEMP
SET WINPMT=[WINDOWS] $P$G

:WRAPUP
PROMPT $P$G
SET PATH=C:\WINDOWS;C:\WINDOWS\COMMAND;C:\;C:\BMRT2.6\bin

IF NOT %CONFIG%==WHATEVER GOTO END
SET PATH=%PATH%;C:\SOME\OTHER\PATH

:END
C:\WINDOWS\COMMAND\MODE CON: RATE=32 DELAY=2


Etc, etc...

Very handy stuff.  If you do have a copy of DOS 6, or something, it would be
worth pulling the help files off of it and reading up on the various batch file
commands (in other words, the above stuff is just supposed to serve as
an example).

Jeff

http://www.jefftturner.com