🚀 go-pugleaf

On 9 Aug 2018, Huge wrote
(in article <ft2elh...@mid.individual.net>):

> On 2018-08-08, Elliott Roper<nos...@yrl.co.uk>  wrote:
> > On 8 Aug 2018, hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote
> > (in article<21aaeee8-c41a-4442...@googlegroups.com>):
> >
> > > Bitsavers uploaded the system manual for the PDP 11/40.
> > >
> > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1140/DEC-11-H40SA-A-D_PDP-11_40_Syst
> > > em_
> > > manual.pdf
> > >
> > > 358 pages, undated.
> >
> > Thanks. Unbounded nostalgia. Was there ever a more elegant computer than a
> > PDP-11?
>
> Apart from the swapped bytes, no.

.....but they were not swapped! Byte addresses increased byte by byte as did 
words increase word by word
Everything else I ever saw except of course the VAX did it wrongly (That 
excludes byte only addressing schemes like the Motorola 6809 IIRC)

OK 11's and VAXes made core dumps of text look ugly.

Elegant as the VAX was, it was but a bloated 11 with a usable address space. 
The 6809 looked like an 11 that ran out of money.

I guess everybody's idea of elegance is skewed by the first machine you 
really really loved.

-- 
To de-mung my e-mail address:- fsnospam$elliott$$ PGP Fingerprint: 1A96 3CF7 
637F 896B C810 E199 7E5C A9E4 8E59 E248

On Thu, 9 Aug 2018, Elliott Roper wrote:



> I guess everybody's idea of elegance is skewed by the first machine you
> really really loved.
>
I think that's true.  I started with the 6502 and when I started looking 
at 8080 code, it looked "odd".  Just different from what I was used to.  I 
moved to the 6809, lots of similarity to the 6502, and then the 68000, but 
didn't stick with it since that clearance Atari 520st had a fault that I 
never fully tracked down.  I  think one reason I didn't use Linux until 
2001 was because I kept hoping to come across a used Mac that was good 
enough to run Linux, me wanting to stick with the 68000. That didn't 
happen, though after I bought a used 200MHz Pentium  to run Linux in 2001, 
I soon found a very cheap Mac 6100 which had the RISC CPU in it and could 
run Linux, but I never got to that.

Of course, by then it was really just habit, it's not like I've ever 
programmed anything in assembly language after the 6809.

   Michael

Michael Black <mbl...@pubnix.net> writes:

> On Thu, 9 Aug 2018, Elliott Roper wrote:
>
>
>
>> I guess everybody's idea of elegance is skewed by the first machine you
>> really really loved.
>>
> I think that's true.  I started with the 6502 and when I started
> looking at 8080 code, it looked "odd".  Just different from what I was
> used to.  I moved to the 6809, lots of similarity to the 6502, and
> then the 68000, but didn't stick with it since that clearance Atari
> 520st had a fault that I never fully tracked down.  I  think one
> reason I didn't use Linux until 2001 was because I kept hoping to come
> across a used Mac that was good enough to run Linux, me wanting to
> stick with the 68000. That didn't happen, though after I bought a used
> 200MHz Pentium  to run Linux in 2001, I soon found a very cheap Mac
> 6100 which had the RISC CPU in it and could run Linux, but I never got
> to that.
>
> Of course, by then it was really just habit, it's not like I've ever
> programmed anything in assembly language after the 6809.

And for *any* of those, the discovery of how clean the -11 was should
have been a revelation.  The only machine I've ever worked on that
remotely approximated the clean-ness of that was the Motorola 6811.

The funny thing being I do a lot of hobby assembly programming now on
PIC processors, which are just plain *weird* from any standpoint you
care to name (and I say this from the perspective of someone who has
done assembly programming on a CDC 6400), but is just perfect for little
embedded applications.

On 10/08/2018 00:44, Michael Black wrote:
> On Thu, 9 Aug 2018, Elliott Roper wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> I guess everybody's idea of elegance is skewed by the first machine you
>> really really loved.
>>
> I think that's true.  I started with the 6502 and when I started looking 
> at 8080 code, it looked "odd".  Just different from what I was used to.  
> I moved to the 6809, lots of similarity to the 6502, and then the 68000, 
> but didn't stick with it since that clearance Atari 520st had a fault 
> that I never fully tracked down.  I  think one reason I didn't use Linux 
> until 2001 was because I kept hoping to come across a used Mac that was 
> good enough to run Linux, me wanting to stick with the 68000. That 
> didn't happen, though after I bought a used 200MHz Pentium  to run Linux 
> in 2001, I soon found a very cheap Mac 6100 which had the RISC CPU in it 
> and could run Linux, but I never got to that.
> 
> Of course, by then it was really just habit, it's not like I've ever 
> programmed anything in assembly language after the 6809.
> 
>    Michael
> 

If one is looking for elegance in early machines, then the Ferranti 
Pegasus is an interesting starting point. According to Simon Lavington's 
book

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Pegasus-Story-History-Vintage-Computer/dp/1900747405

it was one of the first computers to be designed to be easy to program, 
rather than easy to build.

It has a remarkably orthogonal instructions, with uniform address 
modifications on each instruction. A nice page about it here:-

https://cswww.essex.ac.uk/staff/lavington/Pegasus/index.htm

Dave Wade

On Fri, 10 Aug 2018 14:46:30 +0000, Huge wrote:

> On 2018-08-10, David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> wrote:
> 
> [24 lines snipped]
> 
>> If one is looking for elegance in early machines, then the Ferranti
>> Pegasus is an interesting starting point. According to Simon
>> Lavington's book
>>
>> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Pegasus-Story-History-Vintage-Computer/
dp/1900747405
>>
>>
> Fascinating. Thank you!

Must get that. Simon is great fun, and we have spent time in the pub 
together on more than one occasion.

(Computer Conservation Society, monthly meetings near Covent Garden)



-- 
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

On Fri, 10 Aug 2018 16:45:34 +0000, Huge wrote:

> On 2018-08-10, Bob Eager <news...@eager.cx> wrote:
>> On Fri, 10 Aug 2018 14:46:30 +0000, Huge wrote:
>>
>>> On 2018-08-10, David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> wrote:
>>> 
>>> [24 lines snipped]
>>> 
>>>> If one is looking for elegance in early machines, then the Ferranti
>>>> Pegasus is an interesting starting point. According to Simon
>>>> Lavington's book
>>>>
>>>> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Pegasus-Story-History-Vintage-Computer/
>> dp/1900747405
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Fascinating. Thank you!
>>
>> Must get that. Simon is great fun, and we have spent time in the pub
>> together on more than one occasion.
>>
>> (Computer Conservation Society, monthly meetings near Covent Garden)
> 
> When and where? I might be persuaded to schlep in from Norfolk for that!

Southampton Street (BCS London offices).

 http://computerconservationsociety.org/lectures/current/lecture.htm

I quite often go. Whatever the talk is, it's interesting. And so are the 
people. Sometimes end up in the pub afterwards.

-- 
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

On Thu, 9 Aug 2018 19:44:06 -0400, Michael Black wrote:
>
> On Thu, 9 Aug 2018, Elliott Roper wrote:
>
>> I guess everybody's idea of elegance is skewed by the first machine you
>> really really loved.
>>
> I think that's true.  I started with the 6502 and when I started
> looking at 8080 code, it looked "odd".  Just different from what I was
> used to.

Same here. Starting on the 6502 (6510 in a Commodore 64) and only
recently had a look into the "Z80 Bible". It's all reversed what you had
at the ",". Then you had no STA on the Z80, all was done via LD. You just
reversed what was before or after the ",". Also interesting it had
"primitives" like it was called later on the Intel 8086. Like LDIR: you
put your search string in one register, the number of loops into another
and let the magic happen. Of course to pair two 8bit registers into one
16bit register was convenient.
-- 
Andreas

My random toughts and comments
https://news-commentaries.blogspot.com/

On 10 Aug 2018, Huge wrote
(in article <ft6eqe...@mid.individual.net>):

> On 2018-08-10, Bob Eager<news...@eager.cx>  wrote:
> > On Fri, 10 Aug 2018 16:45:34 +0000, Huge wrote:
> >
> > > On 2018-08-10, Bob Eager<news...@eager.cx>  wrote:
> > > > On Fri, 10 Aug 2018 14:46:30 +0000, Huge wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > On 2018-08-10, David Wade<g4ugm@dave.invalid>  wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > [24 lines snipped]
> > > > >
> > > > > > If one is looking for elegance in early machines, then the Ferranti
> > > > > > Pegasus is an interesting starting point. According to Simon
> > > > > > Lavington's book
> > > > > >
> > > > > > https://www.amazon.co.uk/Pegasus-Story-History-Vintage-Computer/
> > > > dp/1900747405
> > > > > Fascinating. Thank you!
> > > >
> > > > Must get that. Simon is great fun, and we have spent time in the pub
> > > > together on more than one occasion.
> > > >
> > > > (Computer Conservation Society, monthly meetings near Covent Garden)
> > >
> > > When and where? I might be persuaded to schlep in from Norfolk for that!
> >
> > Southampton Street (BCS London offices).
> >
> > http://computerconservationsociety.org/lectures/current/lecture.htm
> >
> > I quite often go. Whatever the talk is, it's interesting. And so are the
> > people. Sometimes end up in the pub afterwards.
>
> Ta!

There will be a talk on ICL 1900 Series resurrection next month:

Title: ICL 1900 Software Recovery
Speaker: Bill Gallagher, Delwyn Holroyd &  Brian Spoor
Date: Thursday 20th September 2018
Time: 14:30
Location: BCS, 5 Southampton St, London WC2E 7HA

I will be in the audience, having contributed to the restoration of 1900 
Pascal:

<http://www.findlayw.plus.com/ICL1900/index.html>

-- 
Bill Findlay

On Fri, 10 Aug 2018 23:49:58 +0100, Bill Findlay wrote:

> On 10 Aug 2018, Huge wrote (in article
> <ft6eqe...@mid.individual.net>):
> 
>> On 2018-08-10, Bob Eager<news...@eager.cx>  wrote:
>> > On Fri, 10 Aug 2018 16:45:34 +0000, Huge wrote:
>> >
>> > > On 2018-08-10, Bob Eager<news...@eager.cx>  wrote:
>> > > > On Fri, 10 Aug 2018 14:46:30 +0000, Huge wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > > On 2018-08-10, David Wade<g4ugm@dave.invalid>  wrote:
>> > > > >
>> > > > > [24 lines snipped]
>> > > > >
>> > > > > > If one is looking for elegance in early machines, then the
>> > > > > > Ferranti Pegasus is an interesting starting point. According
>> > > > > > to Simon Lavington's book
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > https://www.amazon.co.uk/Pegasus-Story-History-Vintage-
Computer/
>> > > > dp/1900747405
>> > > > > Fascinating. Thank you!
>> > > >
>> > > > Must get that. Simon is great fun, and we have spent time in the
>> > > > pub together on more than one occasion.
>> > > >
>> > > > (Computer Conservation Society, monthly meetings near Covent
>> > > > Garden)
>> > >
>> > > When and where? I might be persuaded to schlep in from Norfolk for
>> > > that!
>> >
>> > Southampton Street (BCS London offices).
>> >
>> > http://computerconservationsociety.org/lectures/current/lecture.htm
>> >
>> > I quite often go. Whatever the talk is, it's interesting. And so are
>> > the people. Sometimes end up in the pub afterwards.
>>
>> Ta!
> 
> There will be a talk on ICL 1900 Series resurrection next month:
> 
> Title: ICL 1900 Software Recovery Speaker: Bill Gallagher, Delwyn
> Holroyd &  Brian Spoor Date: Thursday 20th September 2018 Time: 14:30
> Location: BCS, 5 Southampton St, London WC2E 7HA
> 
> I will be in the audience, having contributed to the restoration of 1900
> Pascal:
> 
> <http://www.findlayw.plus.com/ICL1900/index.html>

More details on my link above!

I'll be there too. I'm the tall one with very untidy white hair and a 
check shirt!

-- 
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

On Fri, 10 Aug 2018 15:40:31 GMT, Bob Eager <news...@eager.cx> wrote:

> On Fri, 10 Aug 2018 14:46:30 +0000, Huge wrote:
> 
>> On 2018-08-10, David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> wrote:
>> 
>> [24 lines snipped]
>> 
>>> If one is looking for elegance in early machines, then the Ferranti
>>> Pegasus is an interesting starting point. According to Simon
>>> Lavington's book
>>>
>>> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Pegasus-Story-History-Vintage-Computer/
> dp/1900747405
>>>
>>>
>> Fascinating. Thank you!
> 
> Must get that. Simon is great fun, and we have spent time in the pub 
> together on more than one occasion.
> 
> (Computer Conservation Society, monthly meetings near Covent Garden)
> 
> 
> 

Emulator here [& others]. I've not tried it yet.

http://sw.ccs.bcs.org/CCs/simulate.htm


-- 
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.

On Sat, 11 Aug 2018 09:51:18 +0000, Huge wrote:

> On 2018-08-10, Bill Findlay <findl...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 10 Aug 2018, Huge wrote (in article
>> <ft6eqe...@mid.individual.net>):
>>
>>> On 2018-08-10, Bob Eager<news...@eager.cx>  wrote:
>>> > On Fri, 10 Aug 2018 16:45:34 +0000, Huge wrote:
>>> >
>>> > > On 2018-08-10, Bob Eager<news...@eager.cx>  wrote:
>>> > > > On Fri, 10 Aug 2018 14:46:30 +0000, Huge wrote:
>>> > > >
>>> > > > > On 2018-08-10, David Wade<g4ugm@dave.invalid>  wrote:
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > > [24 lines snipped]
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > > > If one is looking for elegance in early machines, then the
>>> > > > > > Ferranti Pegasus is an interesting starting point. According
>>> > > > > > to Simon Lavington's book
>>> > > > > >
>>> > > > > > https://www.amazon.co.uk/Pegasus-Story-History-Vintage-
Computer/
>>> > > > dp/1900747405
>>> > > > > Fascinating. Thank you!
>>> > > >
>>> > > > Must get that. Simon is great fun, and we have spent time in the
>>> > > > pub together on more than one occasion.
>>> > > >
>>> > > > (Computer Conservation Society, monthly meetings near Covent
>>> > > > Garden)
>>> > >
>>> > > When and where? I might be persuaded to schlep in from Norfolk for
>>> > > that!
>>> >
>>> > Southampton Street (BCS London offices).
>>> >
>>> > http://computerconservationsociety.org/lectures/current/lecture.htm
>>> >
>>> > I quite often go. Whatever the talk is, it's interesting. And so are
>>> > the people. Sometimes end up in the pub afterwards.
>>>
>>> Ta!
>>
>> There will be a talk on ICL 1900 Series resurrection next month:
>>
>> Title: ICL 1900 Software Recovery Speaker: Bill Gallagher, Delwyn
>> Holroyd &  Brian Spoor Date: Thursday 20th September 2018 Time: 14:30
>> Location: BCS, 5 Southampton St, London WC2E 7HA
>>
>> I will be in the audience, having contributed to the restoration of
>> 1900 Pascal:
>>
>><http://www.findlayw.plus.com/ICL1900/index.html>
> 
> [Makes note.]
> 
> Since I've actually used a 1900, that one looks interesting, thank you.

I should have said...so have I. I spent two summers working at the 
University of Sussex, including some PLAN programming. And then, nearly a 
decade later, doing consultancy work for BT (more PLAN).

To be fair, the latter was on a 2900 running DME.



-- 
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

On Sun, 12 Aug 2018 10:27:28 +0000, Huge wrote:

>>>> There will be a talk on ICL 1900 Series resurrection next month:
>>>>
>>>> Title: ICL 1900 Software Recovery Speaker: Bill Gallagher, Delwyn
>>>> Holroyd &  Brian Spoor Date: Thursday 20th September 2018 Time: 14:30
>>>> Location: BCS, 5 Southampton St, London WC2E 7HA
> 
> SFPBA. Can't go. Why is it that events on my otherwise sparse calender
> tend to cluster together?

Never mind. There's one every month until the spring.



-- 
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

On Sun, 12 Aug 2018 10:38:49 +0000, Huge wrote:

> On 2018-08-12, Bob Eager <news...@eager.cx> wrote:
>> On Sun, 12 Aug 2018 10:27:28 +0000, Huge wrote:
>>
>>>>>> There will be a talk on ICL 1900 Series resurrection next month:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Title: ICL 1900 Software Recovery Speaker: Bill Gallagher, Delwyn
>>>>>> Holroyd &  Brian Spoor Date: Thursday 20th September 2018 Time:
>>>>>> 14:30 Location: BCS, 5 Southampton St, London WC2E 7HA
>>> 
>>> SFPBA. Can't go. Why is it that events on my otherwise sparse calender
>>> tend to cluster together?
>>
>> Never mind. There's one every month until the spring.
> 
> It's just that I actually know a (tiny amount) bit about 1900s.

Sometimes the talks are video recorded.

-- 
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

On 2018-08-12, Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:

> On 2018-08-11, Bob Eager <news...@eager.cx> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 11 Aug 2018 09:51:18 +0000, Huge wrote:
>>
>>> On 2018-08-10, Bill Findlay <findl...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
> [39 lines snipped]
>
>>>> There will be a talk on ICL 1900 Series resurrection next month:
>>>>
>>>> Title: ICL 1900 Software Recovery Speaker: Bill Gallagher, Delwyn
>>>> Holroyd &  Brian Spoor Date: Thursday 20th September 2018 Time: 14:30
>>>> Location: BCS, 5 Southampton St, London WC2E 7HA
>
> SFPBA. Can't go. Why is it that events on my otherwise sparse calender
> tend to cluster together?

I once heard a saying: "Time is nature's way of keeping everything from
happening at once."  Too bad it's totally wrong.

> I learned RPG2 [gag, spit, cough] for a project at Associated Televison
> to migrate their payroll from a 1900 Autocoder system to a 2903 RPG2
> [nausea] one. I went on a 2 week course at ICL to learn RPG2 [Ghod, I
> think I'm actually going to vomit] for that.

I learned RPG2 at the beginning of my career.  My attitude was a bit
more conciliatory: I found it pretty good at doing what it wasn intended
to do, i.e. generate report programs (although that 1P indicator nonsense
obviously came from someone who never learned how to properly handle page
overflows).

The one that made me gag was RPG3.  That's when IBM forgot what RPG
stood for and started writing screen-based interactive programs with it.

-- 
/~\  cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ /  I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
 X   Top-posted messages will probably be ignored.  See RFC1855.
/ \  Fight low-contrast text in web pages!  http://contrastrebellion.com

Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> On 2018-08-12, Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
> 
>> On 2018-08-11, Bob Eager <news...@eager.cx> wrote:
>> 
>>> On Sat, 11 Aug 2018 09:51:18 +0000, Huge wrote:
>>> 
>>>> On 2018-08-10, Bill Findlay <findl...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>> 
>> [39 lines snipped]
>> 
>>>>> There will be a talk on ICL 1900 Series resurrection next month:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Title: ICL 1900 Software Recovery Speaker: Bill Gallagher, Delwyn
>>>>> Holroyd &  Brian Spoor Date: Thursday 20th September 2018 Time: 14:30
>>>>> Location: BCS, 5 Southampton St, London WC2E 7HA
>> 
>> SFPBA. Can't go. Why is it that events on my otherwise sparse calender
>> tend to cluster together?
> 
> I once heard a saying: "Time is nature's way of keeping everything from
> happening at once."  Too bad it's totally wrong.
> 
>> I learned RPG2 [gag, spit, cough] for a project at Associated Televison
>> to migrate their payroll from a 1900 Autocoder system to a 2903 RPG2
>> [nausea] one. I went on a 2 week course at ICL to learn RPG2 [Ghod, I
>> think I'm actually going to vomit] for that.
> 
> I learned RPG2 at the beginning of my career.  My attitude was a bit
> more conciliatory: I found it pretty good at doing what it wasn intended
> to do, i.e. generate report programs (although that 1P indicator nonsense
> obviously came from someone who never learned how to properly handle page
> overflows).
> 
> The one that made me gag was RPG3.  That's when IBM forgot what RPG
> stood for and started writing screen-based interactive programs with it.
> 

At a great remove I guess RPG was in the same class as "4GLs", like MarkIV,
SPSS/SAS when used as report generators, Manage on Sigma systems, and lots
of similar stuff. RPG suffered by being card-column oriented, but otherwise
these all had the idea of a built-in loop to process records.

-- 
Pete

On Friday, August 10, 2018 at 3:01:10 PM UTC-4, Rich Alderson wrote:

> My first computer was the IBM 1401.  *Not* an elegant architecture, but not
> without points of interest.

I have no idea of the "rating" of the 1401's architecture or
internal electronics.  But Campbell-Kelly noted the big feature
of the 1401 was mechanical--its high quality and high speed
1403 printer (and high speed card reader).

The marketplace certainly loved 1401, giving it very high
sales, especially for that time.

On Wednesday, August 15, 2018 at 3:32:45 PM UTC-4, han...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> I have no idea of the "rating" of the 1401's architecture or
> internal electronics.  But Campbell-Kelly noted the big feature
> of the 1401 was mechanical--its high quality and high speed
> 1403 printer (and high speed card reader).

The peripherals lasted a lot longer than the CPUs did. Many a 370 had a 2501 reader (360-era), a 1442 punch (1401 era) and a 1403 (usually -N1, also 1401 era). I had a 1403-N1 connected to a 2821 connected to a 4361 (the Integrated [Mumble] Adapters dropped direct 1403 support sometime in the 370 generation).

The 1403-N1 and 2821 finally "left" (I'll explain in a bit) when I hacked a pair of DCA IRMAprint boxes to speak Dataproducts protocol on the back side (they already spoke 3287 on the front). Users had their choice of green-bar or tri-bar paper, and a printer with actual LOWERCASE characters. They were overjoyed.

I called the leasing company and said "Look, I know I have a year left on the lease for this stuff (the 1403-N1 and the 2821), but I'm not using it and don't have room for it. Come pick it up or I'll have to put it out in the backyard of the computer center under a tarp." They said they'd be right out to get it. Which actually meant dispatching our IBM CE to repo the print train and a pair of homeless-looking guys who proceeded to roll the equipment onto the sidewalk and gut it for its scrap gold value, leaving me to deal with getting rid of the carcasses.