🚀 go-pugleaf

On 1/22/18 10:20 AM, Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote:

> The Next New Military Specialty Should Be Software Developers

"To remain a dominant force in
the Information Age, the U.S. military -- all four services -- must
create a corps of software developers in uniform."

Because civilian contractors can't be trusted to do what they've
been doing for decades?

Al Kossow <a...@bitsavers.org> writes:
> "To remain a dominant force in the Information Age, the U.S. military
> -- all four services -- must create a corps of software developers in
> uniform."
>
> Because civilian contractors can't be trusted to do what they've
> been doing for decades?

re:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2018.html#69 The Next New Military Specialty Should Be Software Developers

so one scenario it is just excuse for getting more money in their
budget. another scenario/excuse is they are trying to bypass the
lengthy/complicated acquisition process (and the "success of failure"
culture).

enormous uptic in outsourcing after turn of century and the rapidly
spreading "success of failure" culture

we looked at situation where vendor that had done a website said it
would be $10M to add two new web pages to the website. It might take a
year or more.

a common refrain is "don't leave money on the table" ... new large,
3year contract involving multiple vendors (prime and multiple subs)
where we pointed out that what they were doing wouldn't work. Their
reply was they would follow letter of the contract; they said that they
might consider suggesting what would work in a follow-on contract
... after the current one runs out ... otherwise it would be leaving
money on the table.

military-industrial(-congressional) complex posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submisc.html#military.industrial.complex
"success of failure" posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submisc.html#success.of.failure

as aside, there have been several examples where people in theater have
done enhancements to physical equipment based on live experience.
somebody might be thinking that people closer to live user may be able
to better tailor software to real use.

slightly related, I've done a project or two with somebody that claimed
he had coined the term COTS for government (primarily dataprocessing).
We've had lots of discussions about COTS save huge amount of money
... and may even be higher quality/function ... when the
consumer/commercial use is similar to government/military use
... however there have been lots of situations where there are attempts
to force COTS for things that it was never intended for.

-- 
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

On 1/22/18 11:18 AM, Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote:
> another scenario/excuse is they are trying to bypass the
> lengthy/complicated acquisition process (and the "success of failure"
> culture).

Some eyebrows will be raised if this tries to bypass the purchasing bureaucracy

Not that this is a bad thing, Beltway Bandits are not a Good Thing for anyone but themselves
and their lobbyists.

Al Kossow <a...@bitsavers.org> writes:
> Some eyebrows will be raised if this tries to bypass the purchasing
> bureaucracy
>
> Not that this is a bad thing, Beltway Bandits are not a Good Thing for
> anyone but themselves and their lobbyists.

re:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2018.html#69 The Next New Military Specialty Should Be Software Developers
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2018.html#71 The Next New Military Specialty Should Be Software Developers

some latest on acquisition:

DoD Restructures Acquisition, Technology Office to Improve Military
Lethality, Speed
https://www.defense.gov/News/Article/Article/1265231/dod-restructures-acquisition-technology-office-to-improve-military-lethality-sp/
This is the Pentagon's new acquisition structure
https://www.defensenews.com/breaking-news/2017/08/02/this-is-the-pentagons-new-acquisition-structure/
New Pentagon report changes DOD acquisition and tech approach
https://defensesystems.com/articles/2017/08/08/dod-acquisition.aspx

but there is always the suspicion that it is just another gimmick by MIC
to extract more money. There is the whole thing about Iraq2 was just
money for MIC. corporate representatives approach former eastern bloc
countries and tell them if they vote for invasion of iraq in the UN,
they will get approval to join NATO and directed appropriation USAID
(that can only be used for buying modern arms from US
military-industrial complex).
http://www.amazon.com/Prophets-War-Lockheed-Military-Industrial-ebook/dp/B0047T86BA/

original justification for IRAQ2 was Iraq supported Al-Queda and it
would only cost $50B. Then changed to (non-existant) WMDs ... although
they did find decommissioned WMDs (tracing back to US in Iran/Iraq war)
early in the invasion ... but that information was kept classified for
decade.

Since then GAO reported that there was $60B in pallets of shrink wrapped
$100 bills airlifted to Iraq that there is no real accounting for (some
used to pay bribes and tribute to reduce violence during the surge).
Also Iraq no-bid contracts involving tens (hundreds?)  of billions. Two
wars over $5T (with long-term benefits) and "forever wars" continuing

John Boyd's Art of War; Why our greatest military theorist only made colonel.
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/john-boyds-art-of-war/

Here too Boyd had a favorite line. He often said, 'It is not true the
Pentagon has no strategy. It has a strategy, and once you understand
what that strategy is, everything the Pentagon does makes sense. The
strategy is, don't interrupt the money flow, add to it.'

... snip ...

WMD posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submisc.html#wmds
perpetual war posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submisc.html#perpetual.war
military-industrial(-congressional) complex
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submisc.html#military.industrial.complex
Boyd posts & URLs
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subboyd.html

-- 
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

On Monday, January 22, 2018 at 10:20:48 AM UTC-8, Lynn Wheeler wrote:
> To remain a dominant force in the Information Age, 
> the U.S. military -- all four services -- must
> create a corps of software developers in uniform.

In the U.S. Army in Germany I had the 
Military Occupation Specialty (MOS) 35F2LGN -- 
"Nuclear Weapons Electronics Specialist" plus 
"Linguist, German". Now I propose the MOS 
"AI Mind Maintainer" for artificial intelligence. 

http://ai.neocities.org/maintainer.html -- has details. 

Even civilians, especially high-school or college students 
may launch a career as an AI Mind Maintainer if they 
install one of three AI Minds for their client or customer. 

http://ai.neocities.org/MsIeAi.html -- is AI in JavaScript 

for the browser Microsoft Internet Explorer (MSIE). 
Any would-be AI specialist may install the AI Mind 
on websites or computers either as-is or with tweaks 
to the links on the HCI (Human Computer Interface) 
or with special knowledge embedded in the AI Mind. 

ATM
-- 
http://cyborg.blogspot.com 

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 10:32:46 -0800, Al Kossow <a...@bitsavers.org>
wrote:

>On 1/22/18 10:20 AM, Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote:
>
>> The Next New Military Specialty Should Be Software Developers
>
>"To remain a dominant force in
>the Information Age, the U.S. military -- all four services -- must
>create a corps of software developers in uniform."
>
>Because civilian contractors can't be trusted to do what they've
>been doing for decades?
>

I'll go with what Col. Puller of the USMC said, 'You cannot beat the
enemy without sending in well trained infantry.'

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 11:18:44 -0800, Anne & Lynn Wheeler
<ly...@garlic.com> wrote:

>Al Kossow <a...@bitsavers.org> writes:
>> "To remain a dominant force in the Information Age, the U.S. military
>> -- all four services -- must create a corps of software developers in
>> uniform."
>>
>> Because civilian contractors can't be trusted to do what they've
>> been doing for decades?
>
>re:
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2018.html#69 The Next New Military Specialty Should Be Software Developers
>
>so one scenario it is just excuse for getting more money in their
>budget. another scenario/excuse is they are trying to bypass the
>lengthy/complicated acquisition process (and the "success of failure"
>culture).
>
>enormous uptic in outsourcing after turn of century and the rapidly
>spreading "success of failure" culture
>
>we looked at situation where vendor that had done a website said it
>would be $10M to add two new web pages to the website. It might take a
>year or more.

Must have been using illiterates to make the web pages. It takes about
5 minutes to make an html page. Or they were just money grubbers.

>slightly related, I've done a project or two with somebody that claimed
>he had coined the term COTS for government (primarily dataprocessing).
>We've had lots of discussions about COTS save huge amount of money
>... and may even be higher quality/function ... when the
>consumer/commercial use is similar to government/military use
>... however there have been lots of situations where there are attempts
>to force COTS for things that it was never intended for.

I've seen COTS being used by a civilian company, the vendor took them
to the cleaners. The company could have gotten, in my opinion, the
'additions to make it work the way we wanted it to' cheaper by getting
software written from scratch. Instead, they opted for add-ons... it
almost doubled the price they paid.

On Monday, January 22, 2018 at 1:20:48 PM UTC-5, Lynn Wheeler wrote:
> The Next New Military Specialty Should Be Software Developers
> https://warontherocks.com/2018/01/next-new-military-specialty-software-developers/
> 
> To be clear, cyber warriors are not software developers. A common
> misperception is that cyber refers to anything involving computers.
> Cyber teams design weapons, not user interfaces and reports. They write
> code, but not in MySQL, Python, or Ruby. They are not creating new tools
> and systems to improve efficiency within their services. The services
> have created no occupational specialties for software coders or even
> skill identifiers for qualified personnel. To remain a dominant force in
> the Information Age, the U.S. military -- all four services -- must
> create a corps of software developers in uniform.
 
> ... snip ...

In one sense, the military has had this since WW II, when a 
dedicated groups of tab machine specialists were placed in a
truck to produce statistics.  (See Pugh's "Building IBM".)
Also were the military personnel involved with both the
pioneering ENIAC and Harvard Mark I.

The military utilizes computers for all sorts of applications.  
On the one hand are plain commercial applications, such as 
providing the payroll for a large domestic military installation.
(One relatively small army unit, with 5,000 employees, still
needed an IBM 158.)  Also, keeping track of inventory is an
ancient military DP task.  There is also, of course, accounting
functions.

There are radar systems, such as SAGE and its successors.

But the military also needs development of fire control systems,
which vary tremendously, from hand-held weapons to ship borne
missiles.  

There is cryptology.  

It is hard to say when kind of dedicated force should be
provided.  Processing the payroll is very different than
developing fire control systems.

JimP <solo...@gmail.com> writes:
> I'll go with what Col. Puller of the USMC said, 'You cannot beat the
> enemy without sending in well trained infantry.'

re:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2018.html#69 The Next New Military Specialty Should Be Software Developers
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2018.html#71 The Next New Military Specialty Should Be Software Developers
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2018.html#72 The Next New Military Specialty Should Be Software Developers

somebody had a bumper sticker in Annapolis, was Marine emblem and
said "when it positively, absolutely has to be destroyed overnight"
... old posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009f.html#1 Architectural Diversity
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009q.html#69 Now is time for banks to replace core system according to Accenture
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009s.html#15 The Real Meaning of SysRq

In one of the meetings at Marine Corp Univ. ... Gray (1990 commandant
had leveraged Boyd for make over the corp ... one of the tribute cases
in Quantico library lobby is for Boyd ... among some number of marines
from over the ages).  wandered in and talked folklore for a couple hrs
(wasn't on agenda but nobody was going to say he couldn't). Some were
about Puller including encounters with Puller when Gray was much
younger. Another was when president directed that all services create
"special force" units .... and the Marines came back and said that *all*
Marines are "special forces" enabled.

I was sitting against wall in back of room and when he finished, he
walked straight at me (and all I could think of was that I had been set
up for all the Marines I had offended over the years).

Boyd posts & URLs
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subboyd.html

for desert storm, there is a line something about first in are special
forces (or marine recon, depending on who you are talking to), then
combat engineers, then the tanks ... old posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004e.html#19 Message To America's Students: The War, The Draft, Your Future

-- 
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

JimP wrote:
> On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 11:18:44 -0800, Anne & Lynn Wheeler
> <ly...@garlic.com> wrote:
>
>>Al Kossow <a...@bitsavers.org> writes:
>>> "To remain a dominant force in the Information Age, the U.S. military
>>> -- all four services -- must create a corps of software developers in
>>> uniform."
>>>
>>> Because civilian contractors can't be trusted to do what they've
>>> been doing for decades?
>>
>>re:
>>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2018.html#69 The Next New Military Specialty
Should Be Software Developers
>>
>>so one scenario it is just excuse for getting more money in their
>>budget. another scenario/excuse is they are trying to bypass the
>>lengthy/complicated acquisition process (and the "success of failure"
>>culture).
>>
>>enormous uptic in outsourcing after turn of century and the rapidly
>>spreading "success of failure" culture
>>
>>we looked at situation where vendor that had done a website said it
>>would be $10M to add two new web pages to the website. It might take a
>>year or more.
>
> Must have been using illiterates to make the web pages. It takes about
> 5 minutes to make an html page. Or they were just money grubbers.
>
>>slightly related, I've done a project or two with somebody that claimed
>>he had coined the term COTS for government (primarily dataprocessing).
>>We've had lots of discussions about COTS save huge amount of money
>>... and may even be higher quality/function ... when the
>>consumer/commercial use is similar to government/military use
>>... however there have been lots of situations where there are attempts
>>to force COTS for things that it was never intended for.
>
> I've seen COTS being used by a civilian company, the vendor took them
> to the cleaners. The company could have gotten, in my opinion, the
> 'additions to make it work the way we wanted it to' cheaper by getting
> software written from scratch. Instead, they opted for add-ons... it
> almost doubled the price they paid.

Setting up computing services for mom/pops is still a "new" business
and ripe for ripping off people.  A local butcher (who made the best
sausage links in the world) had his freezers break one weekend
and they lost everthing.  So they hired someone to set upt a system
to alert them if the freezers stopped working.  They were charged
$10K for a temperature sensor hooked to a router.  Absolutely
ridiculous.  A year later they were out of business--the $10K
was the camel which broke the straw.

/BAH

Anne & Lynn Wheeler <ly...@garlic.com> wrote:
> Al Kossow <a...@bitsavers.org> writes:
>> "To remain a dominant force in the Information Age, the U.S. military
>> -- all four services -- must create a corps of software developers in
>> uniform."
>> 
>> Because civilian contractors can't be trusted to do what they've
>> been doing for decades?
> 
> re:
> http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2018.html#69 The Next New Military Specialty
> Should Be Software Developers
> 
> so one scenario it is just excuse for getting more money in their
> budget. another scenario/excuse is they are trying to bypass the
> lengthy/complicated acquisition process (and the "success of failure"
> culture).
> 
> enormous uptic in outsourcing after turn of century and the rapidly
> spreading "success of failure" culture
> 
> we looked at situation where vendor that had done a website said it
> would be $10M to add two new web pages to the website. It might take a
> year or more.

The contractors can afford to low-ball the contract, knowing they can make
it up on requested changes and additions.

> 
> a common refrain is "don't leave money on the table" ... new large,
> 3year contract involving multiple vendors (prime and multiple subs)
> where we pointed out that what they were doing wouldn't work. Their
> reply was they would follow letter of the contract; they said that they
> might consider suggesting what would work in a follow-on contract
> ... after the current one runs out ... otherwise it would be leaving
> money on the table.
> 
> military-industrial(-congressional) complex posts
> http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submisc.html#military.industrial.complex
> "success of failure" posts
> http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submisc.html#success.of.failure
> 
> as aside, there have been several examples where people in theater have
> done enhancements to physical equipment based on live experience.
> somebody might be thinking that people closer to live user may be able
> to better tailor software to real use.
> 
> slightly related, I've done a project or two with somebody that claimed
> he had coined the term COTS for government (primarily dataprocessing).
> We've had lots of discussions about COTS save huge amount of money
> ... and may even be higher quality/function ... when the
> consumer/commercial use is similar to government/military use
> ... however there have been lots of situations where there are attempts
> to force COTS for things that it was never intended for.
> 



-- 
Pete

JimP <solo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 11:18:44 -0800, Anne & Lynn Wheeler
> <ly...@garlic.com> wrote:
> 
>> Al Kossow <a...@bitsavers.org> writes:
>>> "To remain a dominant force in the Information Age, the U.S. military
>>> -- all four services -- must create a corps of software developers in
>>> uniform."
>>> 
>>> Because civilian contractors can't be trusted to do what they've
>>> been doing for decades?
>> 
>> re:
>> http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2018.html#69 The Next New Military Specialty
>> Should Be Software Developers
>> 
>> so one scenario it is just excuse for getting more money in their
>> budget. another scenario/excuse is they are trying to bypass the
>> lengthy/complicated acquisition process (and the "success of failure"
>> culture).
>> 
>> enormous uptic in outsourcing after turn of century and the rapidly
>> spreading "success of failure" culture
>> 
>> we looked at situation where vendor that had done a website said it
>> would be $10M to add two new web pages to the website. It might take a
>> year or more.
> 
> Must have been using illiterates to make the web pages. It takes about
> 5 minutes to make an html page. Or they were just money grubbers.

To be fair, while the html may take 5 min, there might have to be a lot of
code behind it to get the data to display and process the input, if any.

> 
>> slightly related, I've done a project or two with somebody that claimed
>> he had coined the term COTS for government (primarily dataprocessing).
>> We've had lots of discussions about COTS save huge amount of money
>> ... and may even be higher quality/function ... when the
>> consumer/commercial use is similar to government/military use
>> ... however there have been lots of situations where there are attempts
>> to force COTS for things that it was never intended for.
> 
> I've seen COTS being used by a civilian company, the vendor took them
> to the cleaners. The company could have gotten, in my opinion, the
> 'additions to make it work the way we wanted it to' cheaper by getting
> software written from scratch. Instead, they opted for add-ons... it
> almost doubled the price they paid.
> 



-- 
Pete

Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> writes:
> To be fair, while the html may take 5 min, there might have to be a lot of
> code behind it to get the data to display and process the input, if any.

re:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2018.html#69 The Next New Military Specialty Should Be Software Developers
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2018.html#71 The Next New Military Specialty Should Be Software Developers
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2018.html#72 The Next New Military Specialty Should Be Software Developers
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2018.html#74 The Next New Military Specialty Should Be Software Developers

I sized the spec and estimated $30k tops ... that included tripling base
estimate for contingency, all the programming, data, integration, and
extensive regression testing. $10M was 1000 times the base estimate (w/o
three times contingency). They had existing DBMS for large number of
items and this was effectively just adding two more items.

I'd seen other things that was $10M ... it was like beltway bandit
overhead was minimum nearly $10M regardless of scope of project.

we had done the consulting for backend dataprocessing for 2000 census
effectively for free ... when they were audited, I had to stand up in
front of the room and answer questions all day. april 1997 the 20yr old
stuff was rolled out and the new stuff rolled in to start testing.

then we tried to do something similar for VA medical backend
dataprocessing ... had meeting with the head staffer on the hill for the
VA. They had just come off a failed dataprocessing modernization effort
and was gearing up for a couple billion dollar effort (that would also
fail). Turns out offering to do something essentially for free is one of
the most threatening things to beltway bandits ... roll out lobbying big
time ...  there are some articles about congress is really cheap date
and best ROI investment going (isn't calculated in percent since that
just adds two extraneous digits to an already large number). One
explanation is that congress isn't dealing with its own money.

trivia: somebody posted two days ago that walmart was advertising gamer
i7 for $150000 ... aka somebody had dropped the decimal point for cents.

more trivia: ten years ago one of the major presidential campaign
promise/claim was to reverse the enormous increase in gov outsourcing
that had occurred since the turn of the century. Turns out that they
didn't reverse it ... only managed to significantly slow down the
incease.  one explanation is appropriations for gov. agencies can't come
back to congress (illegal to lobby) ... and corporations also can't use
money from gov. contracts to lobby (recent case of corporation with
hanford cleanup contract lobbying congress) ... but private equity
owners of beltway bandits appear to be under no such restrictions (on
behalf of companies they own) ... I've read claims that members of
congress expect something like 5% of such appropriations.

"success of failure" article
http://www.govexec.com/excellence/management-matters/2007/04/the-success-of-failure/24107/
"success of failure" posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submisc.html#success.of.failure
private-equity posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submisc.html#private.equity.

past posts mentioning 2000 census
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002g.html#16 Why are Mainframe Computers really still in use at all?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004j.html#21 Methods of payment
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004j.html#43 Methods of payment
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008d.html#63 was: 1975 movie "Three Days of the Condor" tech stuff
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008f.html#92 Billion-dollar IT failure at Census Bureau
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010f.html#21 The 2010 Census
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010f.html#56 Handling multicore CPUs; what the competition is thinking
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012b.html#56 What's the most interesting thing you do in your non-work life?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012k.html#87 Cultural attitudes towards failure
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013l.html#11 What Makes a Tax System Bizarre?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013n.html#98 ACA (Obamacare) website problems--article
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014k.html#37 OT this guy salary one dollar
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015.html#72 George W. Bush: Still the worst; A new study ranks Bush near the very bottom in history
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2016b.html#39 Failure as a Way of Life; The logic of lost wars and military-industrial boondoggles
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2016b.html#107 Qbasic - lies about Medicare
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2016e.html#18 FBI Rewrites Federal Law to Let Hillary Off the Hook
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2016f.html#12 Why a Single-Payer Health Care System is Inevitable
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2016f.html#40 Misc. Success of Failure
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2016f.html#76 GLBA & Glass-Steagall
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2017c.html#71 ComputerWorld Says: Cobol plays major role in U.S. government breaches
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2017e.html#89 The head of the Census Bureau just quit, and the consequences are huge
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2017h.html#0 Census processing, 1950

-- 
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

On Tue, 23 Jan 2018 10:05:19 -0700, Peter Flass
<peter...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>JimP <solo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 11:18:44 -0800, Anne & Lynn Wheeler
>> <ly...@garlic.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Al Kossow <a...@bitsavers.org> writes:
>>>> "To remain a dominant force in the Information Age, the U.S. military
>>>> -- all four services -- must create a corps of software developers in
>>>> uniform."
>>>> 
>>>> Because civilian contractors can't be trusted to do what they've
>>>> been doing for decades?
>>> 
>>> re:
>>> http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2018.html#69 The Next New Military Specialty
>>> Should Be Software Developers
>>> 
>>> so one scenario it is just excuse for getting more money in their
>>> budget. another scenario/excuse is they are trying to bypass the
>>> lengthy/complicated acquisition process (and the "success of failure"
>>> culture).
>>> 
>>> enormous uptic in outsourcing after turn of century and the rapidly
>>> spreading "success of failure" culture
>>> 
>>> we looked at situation where vendor that had done a website said it
>>> would be $10M to add two new web pages to the website. It might take a
>>> year or more.
>> 
>> Must have been using illiterates to make the web pages. It takes about
>> 5 minutes to make an html page. Or they were just money grubbers.
>
>To be fair, while the html may take 5 min, there might have to be a lot of
>code behind it to get the data to display and process the input, if any.

I know two web site designers. Most plain sites are incredibly easy to
make. Doing an input field and check it for wrong input such as
letters when numbers were wanted, isn't difficult. I've seen various
sites with sample code to do that.

JimP <solo...@gmail.com> writes:
>On Tue, 23 Jan 2018 10:05:19 -0700, Peter Flass

>
>I know two web site designers. Most plain sites are incredibly easy to
>make. Doing an input field and check it for wrong input such as
>letters when numbers were wanted, isn't difficult. I've seen various
>sites with sample code to do that.

And how well do they sanitize their input fields?   Carefully enough
to avoid SQL injection vulnerabilities?   Doing it right is hard, which
is why there are so many insecure websites around.

On Tue, 23 Jan 2018 19:35:19 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

>JimP <solo...@gmail.com> writes:
>>On Tue, 23 Jan 2018 10:05:19 -0700, Peter Flass
>
>>
>>I know two web site designers. Most plain sites are incredibly easy to
>>make. Doing an input field and check it for wrong input such as
>>letters when numbers were wanted, isn't difficult. I've seen various
>>sites with sample code to do that.
>
>And how well do they sanitize their input fields?   Carefully enough
>to avoid SQL injection vulnerabilities?   Doing it right is hard, which
>is why there are so many insecure websites around.

They make a living at it, but they don't charge 10 mil for their work.

On Tuesday, January 23, 2018 at 8:34:37 AM UTC-5, jmfbahciv wrote:

> Setting up computing services for mom/pops is still a "new" business
> and ripe for ripping off people.  A local butcher (who made the best
> sausage links in the world) had his freezers break one weekend
> and they lost everthing.  So they hired someone to set upt a system
> to alert them if the freezers stopped working.  They were charged
> $10K for a temperature sensor hooked to a router.  Absolutely
> ridiculous.  A year later they were out of business--the $10K
> was the camel which broke the straw.

The Automatic Electric company offered an automatic dialer machine
that would connect to any kind of sensor.  When a sensor/alarm was
received, the machine would dial a number and play a pre-recorded
message to report the alarm.  This was around 1960.  No computers
involved.

On 2018-01-23, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:

> JimP <solo...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On Tue, 23 Jan 2018 10:05:19 -0700, Peter Flass
>
>> I know two web site designers. Most plain sites are incredibly easy
>> to make. Doing an input field and check it for wrong input such as
>> letters when numbers were wanted, isn't difficult. I've seen various
>> sites with sample code to do that.
>
> And how well do they sanitize their input fields?   Carefully enough
> to avoid SQL injection vulnerabilities?   Doing it right is hard, which
> is why there are so many insecure websites around.

https://www.xkcd.com/327/

-- 
/~\  cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ /  I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
 X   Top-posted messages will probably be ignored.  See RFC1855.
/ \  HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored.  Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!

On 2018-01-23, Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Anne & Lynn Wheeler <ly...@garlic.com> wrote:
>> Al Kossow <a...@bitsavers.org> writes:
>>> "To remain a dominant force in the Information Age, the U.S. military
>

I am presently arguing with my sister, who asked me to recommend a
builder. I emphasised, "Before you start, show him what is wanted,
and get a _definate_ price." Now she complains that the man rooked
her, but he only quoted a vague price. After a lifetime of dealing
with builders, I know that the exact price is the only way to go. 


-- 
greymaus.ireland.ie
Just_Another_Grumpy_Old_Man

On 2018-01-23, JimP <solo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 23 Jan 2018 10:05:19 -0700, Peter Flass
><peter...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>JimP <solo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 11:18:44 -0800, Anne & Lynn Wheeler
>>> <ly...@garlic.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>To be fair, while the html may take 5 min, there might have to be a lot of
>>code behind it to get the data to display and process the input, if any.
>
> I know two web site designers. Most plain sites are incredibly easy to
> make. Doing an input field and check it for wrong input such as
> letters when numbers were wanted, isn't difficult. I've seen various
> sites with sample code to do that.

My experience is different, I have written sites for fun (never been
paid), but I would only do just  do web pages, and nothing with input
fields. 

I would also be very suspicious of pages that offer such sample code. 
I would leave such work to professionals that have insurance against 
costly f***-ups. 


-- 
greymaus.ireland.ie
Just_Another_Grumpy_Old_Man

On Tuesday, January 23, 2018 at 4:30:36 PM UTC-5, ma...@mail.com wrote:

> I am presently arguing with my sister, who asked me to recommend a
> builder. I emphasised, "Before you start, show him what is wanted,
> and get a _definate_ price." Now she complains that the man rooked
> her, but he only quoted a vague price. After a lifetime of dealing
> with builders, I know that the exact price is the only way to go. 

If I ever have to get another house, if at all possible I will buy
existing construction rather than new construction.  Everyone I know
who bought a new house from a developer had lots of problems needing
fixes and the builders--even established good ones--took their time
fixing them, if ever.  Some established builders ended up going
bankrupt, and the buyer had to finish fixes on their own (some
buyers who put down deposits lost them.)

re:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2018.html#69 The Next New Military Specialty Should Be Software Developers
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2018.html#71 The Next New Military Specialty Should Be Software Developers
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2018.html#72 The Next New Military Specialty Should Be Software Developers
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2018.html#74 The Next New Military Specialty Should Be Software Developers
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2018.html#74 The Next New Military Specialty Should Be Software Developers

latest from today in the "success of failure" theme

IT Contracts Worth Billions Lack Proper Oversight, GAO Reports
http://www.pogo.org/blog/2018/01/it-contracts-worth-billions-lack-proper-oversight-gao-reports.html

"success of failure" posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submisc.html#success.of.failure

a few older old dataprocessing modernization (failure) posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005.html#37 [OT?] FBI Virtual Case File is even possible?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007e.html#52 US Air computers delay psgrs
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007i.html#38 John W. Backus, 82, Fortran developer, dies (Actually, Working under the table!)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008m.html#41 IBM--disposition of clock business
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008m.html#45 IBM--disposition of clock business


-- 
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes:

> JimP <solo...@gmail.com> writes:
>>On Tue, 23 Jan 2018 10:05:19 -0700, Peter Flass
>
>>
>>I know two web site designers. Most plain sites are incredibly easy to
>>make. Doing an input field and check it for wrong input such as
>>letters when numbers were wanted, isn't difficult. I've seen various
>>sites with sample code to do that.
>
> And how well do they sanitize their input fields?   Carefully enough
> to avoid SQL injection vulnerabilities?   Doing it right is hard, which
> is why there are so many insecure websites around.

There are APIs you can call to sanitize your input.
It's not hard.

-- 
Dan Espen

On 2018-01-23, hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com <hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:

> On Tuesday, January 23, 2018 at 4:30:36 PM UTC-5, ma...@mail.com wrote:
>
>> I am presently arguing with my sister, who asked me to recommend a
>> builder. I emphasised, "Before you start, show him what is wanted,
>> and get a _definate_ price." Now she complains that the man rooked
>> her, but he only quoted a vague price. After a lifetime of dealing
>> with builders, I know that the exact price is the only way to go. 
>
> If I ever have to get another house, if at all possible I will buy
> existing construction rather than new construction.  Everyone I know
> who bought a new house from a developer had lots of problems needing
> fixes and the builders--even established good ones--took their time
> fixing them, if ever.  Some established builders ended up going
> bankrupt, and the buyer had to finish fixes on their own (some
> buyers who put down deposits lost them.)

Twenty years ago we went through the "leaky condo" scandal.
Cost-cutting developers, thinking they were in southern California,
left out frills like eaves.  Many people got stuck with 5-digit
repair bills replacing rotted structures - or had to tear the
whole thing down and start over.

-- 
/~\  cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ /  I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
 X   Top-posted messages will probably be ignored.  See RFC1855.
/ \  HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored.  Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!

On Tue, 23 Jan 2018 19:35:19 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

>JimP <solo...@gmail.com> writes:
>>On Tue, 23 Jan 2018 10:05:19 -0700, Peter Flass
>
>>
>>I know two web site designers. Most plain sites are incredibly easy to
>>make. Doing an input field and check it for wrong input such as
>>letters when numbers were wanted, isn't difficult. I've seen various
>>sites with sample code to do that.
>
>And how well do they sanitize their input fields?   Carefully enough
>to avoid SQL injection vulnerabilities?   Doing it right is hard, which
>is why there are so many insecure websites around.

He was talking about "plain web sites".  Generally anything I consider
to be "plain" would have no SQL involved, so why would "SQL injection"
be an issue?

On Tue, 23 Jan 2018 19:35:19 GMT
scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:

> JimP <solo...@gmail.com> writes:
> >On Tue, 23 Jan 2018 10:05:19 -0700, Peter Flass
> 
> >
> >I know two web site designers. Most plain sites are incredibly easy to
> >make. Doing an input field and check it for wrong input such as
> >letters when numbers were wanted, isn't difficult. I've seen various
> >sites with sample code to do that.
> 
> And how well do they sanitize their input fields?   Carefully enough
> to avoid SQL injection vulnerabilities?

	That's best done at SQL compose time by using APIs that ensure it
instead of composing SQL strings, that way little Bobby Tables gets his
name properly recorded.

> Doing it right is hard, which

	Nope, doing it right is easy. Getting it right the hard way is hard.

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN                                     | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

J. Clarke <jclarke...@gmail.com> writes:
>On Tue, 23 Jan 2018 19:35:19 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
>wrote:
>
>>JimP <solo...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>On Tue, 23 Jan 2018 10:05:19 -0700, Peter Flass
>>
>>>
>>>I know two web site designers. Most plain sites are incredibly easy to
>>>make. Doing an input field and check it for wrong input such as
>>>letters when numbers were wanted, isn't difficult. I've seen various
>>>sites with sample code to do that.
>>
>>And how well do they sanitize their input fields?   Carefully enough
>>to avoid SQL injection vulnerabilities?   Doing it right is hard, which
>>is why there are so many insecure websites around.
>
>He was talking about "plain web sites".

Your reading comprehension seems lacking today.

  "I know two web site designers."

followed by

  "Most plain sites are incredibly easy to make"

doesn't imply that those two web designers ever or always
design "plain web sites".

On Wed, 24 Jan 2018 15:03:48 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

>J. Clarke <jclarke...@gmail.com> writes:
>>On Tue, 23 Jan 2018 19:35:19 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
>>wrote:
>>
>>>JimP <solo...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>On Tue, 23 Jan 2018 10:05:19 -0700, Peter Flass
>>>
>>>>
>>>>I know two web site designers. Most plain sites are incredibly easy to
>>>>make. Doing an input field and check it for wrong input such as
>>>>letters when numbers were wanted, isn't difficult. I've seen various
>>>>sites with sample code to do that.
>>>
>>>And how well do they sanitize their input fields?   Carefully enough
>>>to avoid SQL injection vulnerabilities?   Doing it right is hard, which
>>>is why there are so many insecure websites around.
>>
>>He was talking about "plain web sites".
>
>Your reading comprehension seems lacking today.
>
>  "I know two web site designers."
>
>followed by
>
>  "Most plain sites are incredibly easy to make"
>
>doesn't imply that those two web designers ever or always
>design "plain web sites".

And as far as I know, they typically don't make the easy ones.

On Wed, 24 Jan 2018 15:03:48 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

>J. Clarke <jclarke...@gmail.com> writes:
>>On Tue, 23 Jan 2018 19:35:19 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
>>wrote:
>>
>>>JimP <solo...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>On Tue, 23 Jan 2018 10:05:19 -0700, Peter Flass
>>>
>>>>
>>>>I know two web site designers. Most plain sites are incredibly easy to
>>>>make. Doing an input field and check it for wrong input such as
>>>>letters when numbers were wanted, isn't difficult. I've seen various
>>>>sites with sample code to do that.
>>>
>>>And how well do they sanitize their input fields?   Carefully enough
>>>to avoid SQL injection vulnerabilities?   Doing it right is hard, which
>>>is why there are so many insecure websites around.
>>
>>He was talking about "plain web sites".
>
>Your reading comprehension seems lacking today.

My killfile seems lonely today.


>
>  "I know two web site designers."
>
>followed by
>
>  "Most plain sites are incredibly easy to make"
>
>doesn't imply that those two web designers ever or always
>design "plain web sites".
>

Anne & Lynn Wheeler <ly...@garlic.com> writes:
> John Boyd's Art of War; Why our greatest military theorist only made colonel.
> http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/john-boyds-art-of-war/

John Boyd's Revenge; How ISIS got inside our OODA Loop
https://medium.com/@bafriedman/john-boyd-s-revenge-8a57d9a53364

Despite the loyalty of his acolytes, the best advocates for Boyd's ideas
are Russia, China, and the Islamic State

... snip ...

slight drift ... there is also Andrew Marshall (foreign policy strategist)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Marshall_(foreign_policy_strategist)

strongly influenced by Friedrich Hayek, he earned an M.A. in economics
from the institution in 1949. His master's thesis was a sensitivity
analysis of Lawrence Klein's econometric model of the US economy;
influential for its methodology, it has never been published except for
a short abstract.[6][7][8]

... snip ...

Pacific: Silicon Chips and Surfboards, Coral Reefs and Atom Bombs,
Brutal Dictators, Fading Empires, and the Coming Collision of the
World's Superpowers
https://www.amazon.com/Pacific-Surfboards-Dictators-Collision-Superpowers-ebook/dp/B00T3CTYTY/

pg378/loc5625-29:

The periscope belonged to a Chinese diesel attack submarine that had
crept, stealthily and undetected, to within torpedo range of an American
aircraft carrier battle group on routine patrol in the area. Though the
official Pentagon inquiries would later concentrate on the alarming
embarrassment of the U.S. Navy, with all its sophisticated underwater
detection apparatus, having failed to notice the incoming attack vessel,
the deeper and initially unanswered question was why this Chinese
submarine was in this corner of the Pacific, in what were long assumed
to be American waters, by use if not by right.

...

there is joke the highest gov. security classification is "down right
embarrassing" ... usually little to do preventing adversaries from
learning something, but preventing the US public from learning
something.

pg415/loc6115-21:

Yet a counterplan exists, for now, and though like all complicated
military strategies, it is a child of many fathers, it was designed in
essence by one man, the second of the two much-revered graybeards of
transpacific planning: the man who was generally regarded as Admiral
Liu’s intellectual opposite number in Washington, Andrew Marshall. This
most remarkable figure retired in 2015 after forty-two years as director
of the Pentagon’s Office of Net Assessment, to which he had been
appointed by Richard Nixon back in 1973. When he stepped down he was
ninety-four years old, and for decades was known familiarly in the
American press as Yoda, after the Jedi Grand Master in the Star Wars
movies, the Pentagon’s preeminent keeper of peace and justice.

pg416/loc6121-24:

His job was to plan for future wars, “to look at not very happy
futures,” as he once put it. Among the world’s war makers, most
especially those in Russia and China, his fame is legendary. He was “our
hero” to the PLA’s General Chen Zhou, one of modern China’s most
powerful strategists. America’s RMA theory, said General Chen, was
something he and his staff had studied “exhaustively.” The Chinese
“translated every word that Marshall wrote.”

... snip ...

and in 2015, who was the write-in candidate for the new yoda?

Boyd has been credited with the battle plan for Desert Storm ...  and US
NEWS & WORLD REPORTS had article titled "The Fight To Change How America
Fights" about Boyd mentioning Boyd's (recent crop of majors & cols) "Jedi
Knights".

Boyd posts & URLs (from around the web)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subboyd.html

past posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2018.html#69 The Next New Military Specialty Should Be Software Developers
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2018.html#71 The Next New Military Specialty Should Be Software Developers
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2018.html#72 The Next New Military Specialty Should Be Software Developers
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2018.html#74 The Next New Military Specialty Should Be Software Developers
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2018.html#78 The Next New Military Specialty Should Be Software Developers
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2018.html#80 The Next New Military Specialty Should Be Software Developers

-- 
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970