🚀 go-pugleaf

Charles Richmond <nume...@aquaporin4.com> writes:

> Okay, okay... maybe I asked this before on <a.f.c.>, but it must have 
> been quite a while ago.

> The following map for Colossal Cave Adventure was dredged up from 
> somewhere on the internet.  It was obviously done with a pen plotter. 
> So does anyone know who plotted it and where???

> https://tinyurl.com/ycjwvlc8

Hunh.  That's a new one on me.  I was expecting the map done using SUDS (the
Stanford University Drawing System) at SAIL.  I had a multi-generation
xerographic copy that came to UChicago from DEC; imagine my delighted surprise
on encountering a full-sized (D- or E-paper from a plotter roll) posted in the
office of the Director of LOTS when I went to work there at Stanford several
years later.

(No one seems to know where the SUDS files for that went, either.)

-- 
Rich Alderson					  ne...@alderson.users.panix.com
      Audendum est, et veritas investiganda; quam etiamsi non assequamur,
	  omnino tamen proprius, quam nunc sumus, ad eam perveniemus.
									--Galen

On 1/2/2018 8:05 PM, Rich Alderson wrote:
> Charles Richmond <nume...@aquaporin4.com> writes:
> 
>> Okay, okay... maybe I asked this before on <a.f.c.>, but it must have
>> been quite a while ago.
> 
>> The following map for Colossal Cave Adventure was dredged up from
>> somewhere on the internet.  It was obviously done with a pen plotter.
>> So does anyone know who plotted it and where???
> 
>> https://tinyurl.com/ycjwvlc8
> 
> Hunh.  That's a new one on me.  I was expecting the map done using SUDS (the
> Stanford University Drawing System) at SAIL.  I had a multi-generation
> xerographic copy that came to UChicago from DEC; imagine my delighted surprise
> on encountering a full-sized (D- or E-paper from a plotter roll) posted in the
> office of the Director of LOTS when I went to work there at Stanford several
> years later.
> 

You must mean Ralph E. Gorin, when he was head of LOTS.  ISTM you did 
mention this in passing... in a previous <a.f.c.> post.  If *I* was 
*not* so absentminded...  I should be able to remember details!  :-(

I've heard of other "lost" maps for Adventure... including one more map 
done on a pen plotter... done by a guy in England (Mike Arnautov) who 
also lost his map *and* the source data.

Also I think BAH once mentioned of a map that floated around DEC... 
drawn with hexagons for rooms.  The hexagons were drawn using a plastic 
graphics template.  No one seems to have a copy of this map anymore...

-- 
numerist at aquaporin4 dot com

Charles Richmond <nume...@aquaporin4.com> writes:

> On 1/2/2018 8:05 PM, Rich Alderson wrote:
>> Charles Richmond <nume...@aquaporin4.com> writes:

>>> Okay, okay... maybe I asked this before on <a.f.c.>, but it must have been
>>> quite a while ago.

>>> The following map for Colossal Cave Adventure was dredged up from somewhere
>>> on the internet.  It was obviously done with a pen plotter.  So does anyone
>>> know who plotted it and where???

>>> https://tinyurl.com/ycjwvlc8

>> Hunh.  That's a new one on me.  I was expecting the map done using SUDS (the
>> Stanford University Drawing System) at SAIL.  I had a multi-generation
>> xerographic copy that came to UChicago from DEC; imagine my delighted
>> surprise on encountering a full-sized (D- or E-paper from a plotter roll)
>> posted in the office of the Director of LOTS when I went to work there at
>> Stanford several years later.

> You must mean Ralph E. Gorin, when he was head of LOTS.  ISTM you did 
> mention this in passing... in a previous <a.f.c.> post.  If *I* was 
> *not* so absentminded...  I should be able to remember details!  :-(

Yup.  Ralph was the half time Director of LOTS.  The System Mannger and System
Programmer were full time positions, as was the administrative assistant.  The
original director was John McCarthy (as in LISP, SAIL--the organization, not
the language--, etc.), and Ralph was the original system manager, to get LOTS
started (Ralph's idea).  By the time I left, the title was "LOTS TOPS-20
Systems Programmer" and we also had systems programmers for VM/SP (possibly
HPO) for the 4381s and Unix systems administrators for the Ultrix, SunOS, and
AIX systems.

> I've heard of other "lost" maps for Adventure... including one more map 
> done on a pen plotter... done by a guy in England (Mike Arnautov) who 
> also lost his map *and* the source data.

> Also I think BAH once mentioned of a map that floated around DEC... 
> drawn with hexagons for rooms.  The hexagons were drawn using a plastic 
> graphics template.  No one seems to have a copy of this map anymore...

It was octagons, with an up arrow on the right hand end of the north side and a
down arrow on the left hand end of the south side.  That was the map of which I
had an Nth generation copy--we got our copy of Adventure at UChicago when one
of the applications people at the Comp Center went to Marlboro for classes; he
was later the head of the ARTFL project.

-- 
Rich Alderson					  ne...@alderson.users.panix.com
      Audendum est, et veritas investiganda; quam etiamsi non assequamur,
	  omnino tamen proprius, quam nunc sumus, ad eam perveniemus.
									--Galen

Rich Alderson <ne...@alderson.users.panix.com> writes:
> Yup.  Ralph was the half time Director of LOTS.  The System Mannger
> and System Programmer were full time positions, as was the
> administrative assistant.  The original director was John McCarthy (as
> in LISP, SAIL--the organization, not the language--, etc.), and Ralph
> was the original system manager, to get LOTS started (Ralph's idea).
> By the time I left, the title was "LOTS TOPS-20 Systems Programmer"
> and we also had systems programmers for VM/SP (possibly HPO) for the
> 4381s and Unix systems administrators for the Ultrix, SunOS, and AIX
> systems.

some past posts mentioning Ralph
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008e.html#74 Convergent Technologies vs Sun
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010d.html#52 Happy DEC-10 Day
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2017h.html#73 Demolishing the Tile Turtle

At SJR, I worked with Jim Gray and Vera Watson (married to John
McCarthy) on System/R (original sql/relational) ... some past posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submain.html#systemr

... that was before the Annapurna climb ... Vera never came back, she is
still on Annapurna.
http://publications.americanalpineclub.org/articles/12197934500/print

and Jim disappeared off San Fran.
https://www.wired.com/2007/07/ff-jimgray-2/

I first saw Adventure at TYMSHARE ... TYMSHARE got copy from SAIL for
their PDP10 and then ported to VM370/CMS. I got a copy+source and made
available on the internal network ... some old email
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008s.html#email780321
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006y.html#email780405
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006y.html#email780405b
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007m.html#email780414
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007m.html#email780517
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007o.html#email790912

some adventure game timeline
http://adventure.if-legends.org/timeline.html
... mentions some IBM mainframe
http://adventure.if-legends.org/Mainframe_adventures.html#Acheton 

but doesn't refer to TYMSHARE or some other mainframe versions.
Internal inside IBM, I made the executable available ... and for anybody
that finished all points, I would send the source. Within a couple
months there were PLI versions with a couple hundred extra points.

quicky web search
http://www.spitenet.com/cave/
with
http://www.spitenet.com/cave/images/AdventureMap.jpg

other ref
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossal_Cave_Adventure

-- 
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

Rich Alderson wrote:
> Charles Richmond <nume...@aquaporin4.com> writes:
>
>> On 1/2/2018 8:05 PM, Rich Alderson wrote:
>>> Charles Richmond <nume...@aquaporin4.com> writes:
>
>>>> Okay, okay... maybe I asked this before on <a.f.c.>, but it must have
been
>>>> quite a while ago.
>
>>>> The following map for Colossal Cave Adventure was dredged up from
somewhere
>>>> on the internet.  It was obviously done with a pen plotter.  So does
anyone
>>>> know who plotted it and where???
>
>>>> https://tinyurl.com/ycjwvlc8
>
>>> Hunh.  That's a new one on me.  I was expecting the map done using SUDS
(the
>>> Stanford University Drawing System) at SAIL.  I had a multi-generation
>>> xerographic copy that came to UChicago from DEC; imagine my delighted
>>> surprise on encountering a full-sized (D- or E-paper from a plotter roll)
>>> posted in the office of the Director of LOTS when I went to work there at
>>> Stanford several years later.
>
>> You must mean Ralph E. Gorin, when he was head of LOTS.  ISTM you did
>> mention this in passing... in a previous <a.f.c.> post.  If *I* was
>> *not* so absentminded...  I should be able to remember details!  :-(
>
> Yup.  Ralph was the half time Director of LOTS.  The System Mannger and
System
> Programmer were full time positions, as was the administrative assistant.
The
> original director was John McCarthy (as in LISP, SAIL--the organization, not
> the language--, etc.), and Ralph was the original system manager, to get
LOTS
> started (Ralph's idea).  By the time I left, the title was "LOTS TOPS-20
> Systems Programmer" and we also had systems programmers for VM/SP (possibly
> HPO) for the 4381s and Unix systems administrators for the Ultrix, SunOS,
and
> AIX systems.
>
>> I've heard of other "lost" maps for Adventure... including one more map
>> done on a pen plotter... done by a guy in England (Mike Arnautov) who
>> also lost his map *and* the source data.
>
>> Also I think BAH once mentioned of a map that floated around DEC...
>> drawn with hexagons for rooms.  The hexagons were drawn using a plastic
>> graphics template.  No one seems to have a copy of this map anymore...

The story I told was about us making the map out of tinker toys.

>
> It was octagons, with an up arrow on the right hand end of the north side
and a
> down arrow on the left hand end of the south side.  That was the map of
which I
> had an Nth generation copy--we got our copy of Adventure at UChicago when
one
> of the applications people at the Comp Center went to Marlboro for classes;
he
> was later the head of the ARTFL project.

If he got it from DEC, the map was probably done by Dick Helliwell on
the TOPS-20 machine run by the hardware development group.  IIRC, they
did use SUDS for developemnt but I never saw it run (so this may be
a figment of a neuron).

/BAH

On 1/6/2018 9:14 AM, jmfbahciv wrote:
>
 >     [snip...]            [snip...]           [snip...]
> 
> If he got it from DEC, the map was probably done by Dick Helliwell on
> the TOPS-20 machine run by the hardware development group.  IIRC, they
> did use SUDS for developemnt but I never saw it run (so this may be
> a figment of a neuron).
> 

Mr. Rich Alderson discussed an Adventure map drawn by the SUDS pen 
plotter system at DEC.  ISTR that *you* had posted before...  about a 
*hand* drawn Adventure map where each room was a hexagon.  ISTR that the 
hexagons were drawn using a plastic template...  done there at DEC.

Did I get the wrong idea from your previous post BAH???

I wonder if anyone knows where to find Dick Helliwell???

-- 
numerist at aquaporin4 dot com

Charles Richmond wrote:
> On 1/6/2018 9:14 AM, jmfbahciv wrote:
>>
>  >     [snip...]            [snip...]           [snip...]
>>
>> If he got it from DEC, the map was probably done by Dick Helliwell on
>> the TOPS-20 machine run by the hardware development group.  IIRC, they
>> did use SUDS for developemnt but I never saw it run (so this may be
>> a figment of a neuron).
>>
>
> Mr. Rich Alderson discussed an Adventure map drawn by the SUDS pen
> plotter system at DEC.  ISTR that *you* had posted before...  about a
> *hand* drawn Adventure map where each room was a hexagon.  ISTR that the
> hexagons were drawn using a plastic template...  done there at DEC.

I don't recall this at all...telling it nor seeing it.  The one I did
tell was about using tinker toys to make a map; we used the round
thingie with many holes to represent the mazes.

>
> Did I get the wrong idea from your previous post BAH???
>
> I wonder if anyone knows where to find Dick Helliwell???
>


/BAH

jmfbahciv <See....@aol.com> writes:

> Rich Alderson wrote:

>> It was octagons, with an up arrow on the right hand end of the north side
>> and a down arrow on the left hand end of the south side.  That was the map
>> of which I had an Nth generation copy--we got our copy of Adventure at
>> UChicago when one of the applications people at the Comp Center went to
>> Marlboro for classes; he was later the head of the ARTFL project.

> If he got it from DEC, the map was probably done by Dick Helliwell on
> the TOPS-20 machine run by the hardware development group.  IIRC, they
> did use SUDS for developemnt but I never saw it run (so this may be
> a figment of a neuron).

He didn't get it from Dick directly.  (Whatever makes you think Dick would have
anything to do with Adventure maps? ;-)  My friend Don got a Xerox copy of a
Xerox copy of a Xerox copy ... from someone in Educational Services.  My copy
was taken from his.

Dick worked for XKL for 5 years, 1991-1995, before Norma made him move back to
Colorado Springs.  Our offices were next door to one another.

-- 
Rich Alderson					  ne...@alderson.users.panix.com
      Audendum est, et veritas investiganda; quam etiamsi non assequamur,
	  omnino tamen proprius, quam nunc sumus, ad eam perveniemus.
									--Galen

Rich Alderson wrote:
> jmfbahciv <See....@aol.com> writes:
>
>> Rich Alderson wrote:
>
>>> It was octagons, with an up arrow on the right hand end of the north side
>>> and a down arrow on the left hand end of the south side.  That was the map
>>> of which I had an Nth generation copy--we got our copy of Adventure at
>>> UChicago when one of the applications people at the Comp Center went to
>>> Marlboro for classes; he was later the head of the ARTFL project.
>
>> If he got it from DEC, the map was probably done by Dick Helliwell on
>> the TOPS-20 machine run by the hardware development group.  IIRC, they
>> did use SUDS for developemnt but I never saw it run (so this may be
>> a figment of a neuron).
>
> He didn't get it from Dick directly.  (Whatever makes you think Dick would
have
> anything to do with Adventure maps? ;-)

<GRIN>  The entire Marlboro development complex shut down the Friday
Adventure showed up on the TOPS-10 system.  Developers stayed at the
plant from Friday to late Sunday when /CDO figured out how to get the
last point using address break.  Later that week /CDO wrote a file which
ran the game with all the commands to get all the points.  I heard about
a map but never saw it.

> My friend Don got a Xerox copy of a
> Xerox copy of a Xerox copy ... from someone in Educational Services.

hmmm...I wonder who...Nancy Kilty or Alan Frantz were -10 types.

> My copy
> was taken from his.
>
> Dick worked for XKL for 5 years, 1991-1995, before Norma made him move back
to
> Colorado Springs.  Our offices were next door to one another.

Ah, so that's where he went.  I hope he had fun working there.  He was one of
the good guys in hardware.

/BAH

On 1/11/2018 8:48 AM, jmfbahciv wrote:
> Rich Alderson wrote:
>> jmfbahciv <See....@aol.com> writes:
>>
>>> Rich Alderson wrote:
>>
>>>> It was octagons, with an up arrow on the right hand end of the north side
>>>> and a down arrow on the left hand end of the south side.  That was the map
>>>> of which I had an Nth generation copy--we got our copy of Adventure at
>>>> UChicago when one of the applications people at the Comp Center went to
>>>> Marlboro for classes; he was later the head of the ARTFL project.
>>
>>> If he got it from DEC, the map was probably done by Dick Helliwell on
>>> the TOPS-20 machine run by the hardware development group.  IIRC, they
>>> did use SUDS for developemnt but I never saw it run (so this may be
>>> a figment of a neuron).
>>
>> He didn't get it from Dick directly.  (Whatever makes you think Dick would
> have
>> anything to do with Adventure maps? ;-)
> 
> <GRIN>  The entire Marlboro development complex shut down the Friday
> Adventure showed up on the TOPS-10 system.  Developers stayed at the
> plant from Friday to late Sunday when /CDO figured out how to get the
> last point using address break.  Later that week /CDO wrote a file which
> ran the game with all the commands to get all the points.  I heard about
> a map but never saw it.
> 

But BAH... you *did* really see the Adventure map made from tinkertoys, 
right???  Or was that just a DEC rumor???


-- 
numerist at aquaporin4 dot com

Charles Richmond wrote:
> On 1/11/2018 8:48 AM, jmfbahciv wrote:
>> Rich Alderson wrote:
>>> jmfbahciv <See....@aol.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> Rich Alderson wrote:
>>>
>>>>> It was octagons, with an up arrow on the right hand end of the north
side
>>>>> and a down arrow on the left hand end of the south side.  That was the
map
>>>>> of which I had an Nth generation copy--we got our copy of Adventure at
>>>>> UChicago when one of the applications people at the Comp Center went to
>>>>> Marlboro for classes; he was later the head of the ARTFL project.
>>>
>>>> If he got it from DEC, the map was probably done by Dick Helliwell on
>>>> the TOPS-20 machine run by the hardware development group.  IIRC, they
>>>> did use SUDS for developemnt but I never saw it run (so this may be
>>>> a figment of a neuron).
>>>
>>> He didn't get it from Dick directly.  (Whatever makes you think Dick would
>> have
>>> anything to do with Adventure maps? ;-)
>>
>> <GRIN>  The entire Marlboro development complex shut down the Friday
>> Adventure showed up on the TOPS-10 system.  Developers stayed at the
>> plant from Friday to late Sunday when /CDO figured out how to get the
>> last point using address break.  Later that week /CDO wrote a file which
>> ran the game with all the commands to get all the points.  I heard about
>> a map but never saw it.
>>
>
> But BAH... you *did* really see the Adventure map made from tinkertoys,
> right???  Or was that just a DEC rumor???

I and the friend, who played the game with me, made the map with tinkertoys;
but it was outside of DEC property.  I didn't play the game when I was at
work.  I didn't see the computer-plotted map.

/BAH

Rich Alderson wrote:
> Hunh.  That's a new one on me.  I was expecting the map done using SUDS (the
> Stanford University Drawing System) at SAIL.  I had a multi-generation
> xerographic copy that came to UChicago from DEC; imagine my delighted surprise
> on encountering a full-sized (D- or E-paper from a plotter roll) posted in the
> office of the Director of LOTS when I went to work there at Stanford several
> years later.

Is there a picture of this SUDS map?