🚀 go-pugleaf

On Tue, 19 Jun 2012 13:23:39 -0400, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action, Rin
Stowleigh wrote: 

>
>The greatest game ever made, redone.... let's hope it does not suck
>like prior attempts :)
>
>http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1547218311/alpha-colony-a-tribute-to-mule?ref=card

Check out:

http://www.planetmule.com/

...if you want an idea of how Dani Bunten's family has been treating the
property. It is passable, but I still run an Atari 800 emulator if I
really want to play the game.

I don't really understand why the feel of the gameplay is so hard to
reproduce, but it's proven difficult. I don't understand how modernizing
the look manages to hurt the gameplay, but that's been my experience too.

Best. Game. Ever. Doesn't need a jot of improvement, just a port. Why is
it so hard to do that? Who knows.

-- 
Zag

No one ever said on their deathbed, 'Gee, I wish I had
spent more time alone with my computer.' ~Dan(i) Bunten

Zaghadka <zaghadka@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Check out:
>
> http://www.planetmule.com/
>
> ...if you want an idea of how Dani Bunten's family has been treating the
> property. It is passable, but I still run an Atari 800 emulator if I
> really want to play the game.
[...]
> Best. Game. Ever. Doesn't need a jot of improvement, just a port. Why is
> it so hard to do that? Who knows.

I expect it's not hard to do, it's just that there's not much point,
given that the original is easily enough played on an emulator as it
is.

I've only ever played it on the Commodore 64.  I should really try it
again on the Atari 800 to see if it plays better with the hand-crafted
maps, as I've been told.

-- 
Zed Pobre <zed@resonant.org> a.k.a. Zed Pobre <zed@debian.org>
PGP key and fingerprint available on finger; encrypted mail welcomed.

On Tue, 19 Jun 2012 16:29:52 -0500, Zaghadka <zaghadka@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>On Tue, 19 Jun 2012 13:23:39 -0400, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action, Rin
>Stowleigh wrote: 
>
>>
>>The greatest game ever made, redone.... let's hope it does not suck
>>like prior attempts :)
>>
>>http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1547218311/alpha-colony-a-tribute-to-mule?ref=card
>
>Check out:
>
>http://www.planetmule.com/
>
>...if you want an idea of how Dani Bunten's family has been treating the
>property. It is passable, but I still run an Atari 800 emulator if I
>really want to play the game.
>
>I don't really understand why the feel of the gameplay is so hard to
>reproduce, but it's proven difficult. I don't understand how modernizing
>the look manages to hurt the gameplay, but that's been my experience too.
>
>Best. Game. Ever. Doesn't need a jot of improvement, just a port. Why is
>it so hard to do that? Who knows.

I think there are a few things..  first, if it's really going to be
the same game why not just use an emulator and play the original?  

Also, recreating some of the quirky beauty of the game is easier said
than done... for example the music is typical of what 8-bit synthesis
was capable of back then.  Now of course, musical capabilities are
much better, but do we really want great music or do we want the
clunky bouncey 8-bit sound of the original?  And if it's not the SAME
sound, will we just feel something was lost in translation?  And if it
is the same sound, should someone emulate the Atari sound chip during
gameplay?  And if they do, doesn't that bring us back to why not just
run the whole thing in an emulator?

So, I think there is a perception that their are two choices:  either
run the original in an emulator, or do a modern day rendition, trying
to capture the fun of the original in an updated package.  And that
can be pretty challenging, although I will say I don't think anyone to
date has tried hard enough.  There is then perhaps hope that
Kickstarter, by removing the "corporate funding douchebag" factor,
might actually result in a proper remake.

In my own opinion, M.U.L.E. was really at it's best when played
multiplayer.  The computer AI was too predictable at auctions, and
also as a gaming tactic it was handy if you could physically reach
your opponent for an abrupt bitch-slapping at certain key moments,
when necessary.  So, to really make M.U.L.E players happy, they
desperately need to get multiplayer over the Internet going to replace
the former scenario of folks sitting around the computer with
joysticks plugged into it.  Now someone tell me why THAT's hard to do?
Its not like auctioning or land selection are things that require
optimal netcode or anything.

On Tue, 19 Jun 2012 19:33:27 -0400, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action, Rin
Stowleigh wrote: 

>In my own opinion, M.U.L.E. was really at it's best when played
>multiplayer.  The computer AI was too predictable at auctions, and
>also as a gaming tactic it was handy if you could physically reach
>your opponent for an abrupt bitch-slapping at certain key moments,
>when necessary.  So, to really make M.U.L.E players happy, they
>desperately need to get multiplayer over the Internet going to replace
>the former scenario of folks sitting around the computer with
>joysticks plugged into it.  Now someone tell me why THAT's hard to do?
>Its not like auctioning or land selection are things that require
>optimal netcode or anything.

Agreed. One thing that's just about impossible to do with netplay is the
"collusion" system. In MP, you could lock your buddies out of the
auction, which makes it a whole new ballgame.

-- 
Zag

No one ever said on their deathbed, 'Gee, I wish I had
spent more time alone with my computer.' ~Dan(i) Bunten

On 19.6.2012. 19:23, Rin Stowleigh wrote:
>
> The greatest game ever made, redone.... let's hope it does not suck
> like prior attempts :)
>
> http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1547218311/alpha-colony-a-tribute-to-mule?ref=card

Caution, with this one. Some think something's fishy... And those some 
are too often right. ;)

http://www.androidpolice.com/2012/06/19/alpha-colony-a-tribute-to-m-u-l-e-is-a-great-example-of-increasing-kickstarter-abuse-and-the-blurry-line-it-sits-upon/

On Wed, 20 Jun 2012 22:08:35 +0200, Iguana <Iguana^MGT@hi.htnet.hr>
wrote:

>On 19.6.2012. 19:23, Rin Stowleigh wrote:
>>
>> The greatest game ever made, redone.... let's hope it does not suck
>> like prior attempts :)
>>
>> http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1547218311/alpha-colony-a-tribute-to-mule?ref=card
>
>Caution, with this one. Some think something's fishy... And those some 
>are too often right. ;)
>
>http://www.androidpolice.com/2012/06/19/alpha-colony-a-tribute-to-m-u-l-e-is-a-great-example-of-increasing-kickstarter-abuse-and-the-blurry-line-it-sits-upon/


Well I don't disagree it's good to be suspect of any startup venture
(they are ALL risky.... duhh.....)...

The guy that wrote the article is an idiot if he thinks $500,000 is a
lot of money to deliver a professional game title, and beyond idiocy
if he thinks Machinarium was really developed at a cost of $1000.  The
wikipedia article says $1000 was the advertising budget for the game.
You don't need a lot in advertising, since app stores like Steam take
their cut from the profits.  I have no idea how much was actually
"spent" on developing Machinarium, but even if you have a few of
unemployed programmers in the Czech Republic who are working on a
project out of boredom, when figuring the cost of development you have
to put a reasonable cost on their hourly labor (for sanity purposes,
use the amount it would cost you to get it somewhere else if you had
to hire developers that aren't just bored and would like to be paid
for their months of work).

When I saw their funding goal was only half a million, I actually
worried that the end result might be kind of rinky-dink.

Personally I'm interested in these Kickstarter projects but I don't
care to donate to them.  I prefer to evaluate the finished product and
choose what I'd like to pay for it, even if I ultimately end up paying
more than if I had donated early on.  I could care less about "being
part of the process".... I play a pivotal role in projects much bigger
than these Kickstarter ventures every day, so trying to shape some
video game would just feel like work to me.

On 20.6.2012. 22:33, Rin Stowleigh wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Jun 2012 22:08:35 +0200, Iguana <Iguana^MGT@hi.htnet.hr>
> wrote:
>
>> On 19.6.2012. 19:23, Rin Stowleigh wrote:
>>>
>>> The greatest game ever made, redone.... let's hope it does not suck
>>> like prior attempts :)
>>>
>>> http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1547218311/alpha-colony-a-tribute-to-mule?ref=card
>>
>> Caution, with this one. Some think something's fishy... And those some
>> are too often right. ;)
>>
>> http://www.androidpolice.com/2012/06/19/alpha-colony-a-tribute-to-m-u-l-e-is-a-great-example-of-increasing-kickstarter-abuse-and-the-blurry-line-it-sits-upon/
>
> The guy that wrote the article is an idiot if he thinks $500,000 is a
> lot of money to deliver a professional game title, and beyond idiocy
> if he thinks Machinarium was really developed at a cost of $1000.  The

He didn't wrote that in the article...

> wikipedia article says $1000 was the advertising budget for the game.

As a matter of fact he wrote the same you're stating right here. :)

> When I saw their funding goal was only half a million, I actually
> worried that the end result might be kind of rinky-dink.

You might want to ask yourself how can *this* professional game title be 
developed with "just" $400K, then. And you might want to compare the 
types of the games or the "promissed" feature lists or the development 
teams involved (or additionally hired) or the overall styles (or tones) 
of the Kickstarter pledges between those two.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1613260297/shadowrun-returns


That said, I really hope Alpha Colony will be worth the money involved 
(or asked for). It looks good in presentation video. But I won't hold my 
breath for it. The platform most interesting to me - Android - seems to 
be the least interesting one to "developers". :/

Or were you talking about "M.U.L.E Returns" in your original post? That 
one seems to me a bit safer bet.

On Thu, 21 Jun 2012 00:55:34 +0200, Iguana <Iguana^MGT@hi.htnet.hr>
wrote:

>On 20.6.2012. 22:33, Rin Stowleigh wrote:
>> On Wed, 20 Jun 2012 22:08:35 +0200, Iguana <Iguana^MGT@hi.htnet.hr>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 19.6.2012. 19:23, Rin Stowleigh wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The greatest game ever made, redone.... let's hope it does not suck
>>>> like prior attempts :)
>>>>
>>>> http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1547218311/alpha-colony-a-tribute-to-mule?ref=card
>>>
>>> Caution, with this one. Some think something's fishy... And those some
>>> are too often right. ;)
>>>
>>> http://www.androidpolice.com/2012/06/19/alpha-colony-a-tribute-to-m-u-l-e-is-a-great-example-of-increasing-kickstarter-abuse-and-the-blurry-line-it-sits-upon/
>>
>> The guy that wrote the article is an idiot if he thinks $500,000 is a
>> lot of money to deliver a professional game title, and beyond idiocy
>> if he thinks Machinarium was really developed at a cost of $1000.  The
>
>He didn't wrote that in the article...
>
>> wikipedia article says $1000 was the advertising budget for the game.
>
>As a matter of fact he wrote the same you're stating right here. :)

He did indicate the $1k was advertising money, but what he said is
*EXACTLY* what I accused him of saying (that $500k is too much for
Alpha Colony, and Machinarium's $1k budget is evidence of that).  His
exact words are:

"If a hand-drawn indie masterpiece like Machinarium could be developed
using the scant personal savings of seven developers and $1000 of
marketing funding (and distributed across half a dozen platforms),
something tells me Alpha Colony doesn't need $500,000 to become a
reality".

... so, what I said stands.  Someone slap that idiot :)

>> When I saw their funding goal was only half a million, I actually
>> worried that the end result might be kind of rinky-dink.
>
>You might want to ask yourself how can *this* professional game title be 
>developed with "just" $400K, then. 

... and that is exactly why, in my last message, I typed : 

"When I saw their funding goal was only half a million, I actually
worried that the end result might be kind of rinky-dink."

$500k seems low to me for a top notch MULE clone.  Not saying it
couldn't be done, just makes me question what the final quality will
be like if that's all they raise.

>And you might want to compare the 
>types of the games or the "promissed" feature lists or the development 
>teams involved (or additionally hired) or the overall styles (or tones) 
>of the Kickstarter pledges between those two.

Meh... promised features are vapor and not necessarily relevant to
final output.

>http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1613260297/shadowrun-returns
>
>
>That said, I really hope Alpha Colony will be worth the money involved 
>(or asked for). It looks good in presentation video. But I won't hold my 
>breath for it. The platform most interesting to me - Android - seems to 
>be the least interesting one to "developers". :/
>Or were you talking about "M.U.L.E Returns" in your original post? That 
>one seems to me a bit safer bet.

I was mostly passing the link along to any M.U.L.E. fans, and yeah I
thought the same thing about M.U.L.E. Returns.  However looking at it
now, it says they've tweeted that they are about 40% complete, which
makes one wonder..  A lot of times in development its not until you
hit the 90% complete mark that you realize the last 10% is really
going to take 90% of the total work :)

On 21.6.2012. 1:13, Rin Stowleigh wrote:
>
> He did indicate the $1k was advertising money, but what he said is
> *EXACTLY* what I accused him of saying (that $500k is too much for
> Alpha Colony, and Machinarium's $1k budget is evidence of that).  His
> exact words are:
>
> "If a hand-drawn indie masterpiece like Machinarium could be developed
> using the scant personal savings of seven developers and $1000 of
> marketing funding (and distributed across half a dozen platforms),
> something tells me Alpha Colony doesn't need $500,000 to become a
> reality".
>
> .... so, what I said stands.  Someone slap that idiot :)

I disagree. I admit English is not my native language, but as far as I 
understood, he was talking about an unspecified amount of money ("scant 
personal savings of seven developers") plus the $1000 of marketing funding.

> I was mostly passing the link along to any M.U.L.E. fans, and yeah I
> thought the same thing about M.U.L.E. Returns.  However looking at it
> now, it says they've tweeted that they are about 40% complete, which
> makes one wonder..

Well, any of you interested M.U.L.E. fans, better hurry up and send your 
money! (So we non-payers can see how the things will resolve... ];)

> A lot of times in development its not until you
> hit the 90% complete mark that you realize the last 10% is really
> going to take 90% of the total work :)

Well, it was a long time ago, but AFAIR I could easily agree with you on 
this. :)

On Thu, 21 Jun 2012 02:30:40 +0200, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,
Iguana wrote: 

>On 21.6.2012. 1:13, Rin Stowleigh wrote:
>>
>> He did indicate the $1k was advertising money, but what he said is
>> *EXACTLY* what I accused him of saying (that $500k is too much for
>> Alpha Colony, and Machinarium's $1k budget is evidence of that).  His
>> exact words are:
>>
>> "If a hand-drawn indie masterpiece like Machinarium could be developed
>> using the scant personal savings of seven developers and $1000 of
>> marketing funding (and distributed across half a dozen platforms),
>> something tells me Alpha Colony doesn't need $500,000 to become a
>> reality".
>>
>> .... so, what I said stands.  Someone slap that idiot :)
>
>I disagree. I admit English is not my native language, but as far as I 
>understood, he was talking about an unspecified amount of money ("scant 
>personal savings of seven developers") plus the $1000 of marketing funding.

Yeah. The problem with that is "scant" is completely undefined, and
pairing it with a hard fact, the $1000 marketing budget, makes it sound
like the Machinarium product was put together with shoelaces and chewing
gum. It could have been deliberate, or it could just be bad writing.

But if he doesn't know what the actual principle investment was on the
project, he doesn't have an example. That's the problem.

Not idiocy, IMHO, but definitely "weasel wording."

-- 
Zag

No one ever said on their deathbed, 'Gee, I wish I had
spent more time alone with my computer.' ~Dan(i) Bunten

On Thu, 21 Jun 2012 00:55:34 +0200, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,
Iguana wrote: 

>On 20.6.2012. 22:33, Rin Stowleigh wrote:
>> On Wed, 20 Jun 2012 22:08:35 +0200, Iguana <Iguana^MGT@hi.htnet.hr>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 19.6.2012. 19:23, Rin Stowleigh wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The greatest game ever made, redone.... let's hope it does not suck
>>>> like prior attempts :)
>>>>
>>>> http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1547218311/alpha-colony-a-tribute-to-mule?ref=card
>>>
>>> Caution, with this one. Some think something's fishy... And those some
>>> are too often right. ;)
>>>
>>> http://www.androidpolice.com/2012/06/19/alpha-colony-a-tribute-to-m-u-l-e-is-a-great-example-of-increasing-kickstarter-abuse-and-the-blurry-line-it-sits-upon/
>>
>> The guy that wrote the article is an idiot if he thinks $500,000 is a
>> lot of money to deliver a professional game title, and beyond idiocy
>> if he thinks Machinarium was really developed at a cost of $1000.  The
>
>He didn't wrote that in the article...
>
>> wikipedia article says $1000 was the advertising budget for the game.
>
>As a matter of fact he wrote the same you're stating right here. :)
>
>> When I saw their funding goal was only half a million, I actually
>> worried that the end result might be kind of rinky-dink.
>
>You might want to ask yourself how can *this* professional game title be 
>developed with "just" $400K, then. And you might want to compare the 
>types of the games or the "promissed" feature lists or the development 
>teams involved (or additionally hired) or the overall styles (or tones) 
>of the Kickstarter pledges between those two.
>
>http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1613260297/shadowrun-returns
>
>
>That said, I really hope Alpha Colony will be worth the money involved 
>(or asked for). It looks good in presentation video. But I won't hold my 
>breath for it. The platform most interesting to me - Android - seems to 
>be the least interesting one to "developers". :/
>
>Or were you talking about "M.U.L.E Returns" in your original post? That 
>one seems to me a bit safer bet.

To give some perspective, here's the flaw in the article you posted.

He's comparing it to Machinarium.

Machinarium is a Flash based adventure game, where everything is
scripted, entirely predictable and the number and timing of user inputs
is extremely limited. There is *zero* complexity in that program by
comparison. They already had a development platform (Flash), and they
only had to program for an extremely limited set of input possibilities.
Therefore everything they did could be "labor of love" content
generation, with a lesser need for "labor of necessity" code checking.

OTOH, M.U.L.E. with network support and an asynchronous turn structure?
They could spend $500,000 just doing QA on that project, and the author
of the article glosses that fact over by supposing "a willing pen of beta
testers."

Basically, he's claiming QA is going to be free, and that is a crock. He
sounds like an open source hippie with no real experience in professional
development, where quirky results are not overlooked, and "good enough"
generally isn't. The spec of the proposed project is several orders of
magnitude greater in complexity compared to Machinarium. It's ambitious.

We should certainly be wary of giving money up to Kickstarter with no
guarantees, or on the basis of our nostalgia, but $500,000 is pants for
this kind of project, and IMO a reasonable request that passes the sniff
test.

I had the same initial reaction as Rin, "Do they really think they can do
that for *only* $500k?"

-- 
Zag

No one ever said on their deathbed, 'Gee, I wish I had
spent more time alone with my computer.' ~Dan(i) Bunten